Compared: Apple's 16-inch MacBook Pro vs the 2019 15-inch MacBook Pro

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 81
    DRBDRB Posts: 34member

    k2kw said:
    Great product now that Apple is fixing the mistakes of Ive.   I think that this will be a big seller as pros upgrade from the Butterfly keyboard and the pre2016 models.  I think it is the best that Apple could do given what Intel is providing.   I’m looking forward to a future model with 10th gen 10nm chips and Lpddr.
    I don't know how much of a mistake of Ive since before he left Apple, he actually wasn't spending that much time in designing Apple products.  He was actually more involved with designing their Corporate Headquarters and certain aspects of that, as well as designing Apple Stores..  He actually was away from product design for several years, so I honestly don't think Ive was the issue.

    Knowing what we know, yeah, it would be great to get LPDDR4 RAM support but that's entirely up to Intel to support the latest.   They support LPDD3, but at a slower 2333 speed, and only up to 32GB if I'm not mistaken.  

    WIFi 6 support is probably next year's release.  I don't think they have a upgrade model to 10th gen available yet, so the only ones they have are lower end chips, not the higher end mobile.

    I would like Apple to get back to having upgradeable RAM and Storage, but I don't know if they want to do that anymore because they would have to make the product even thicker to accommodate.

    A cellular option might be interesting for some people..

  • Reply 42 of 81
    d_2d_2 Posts: 117member

    k2kw said:
    Great product now that Apple is fixing the mistakes of Ive.   I think that this will be a big seller as pros upgrade from the Butterfly keyboard and the pre2016 models.  I think it is the best that Apple could do given what Intel is providing.   I’m looking forward to a future model with 10th gen 10nm chips and Lpddr.
    Unless you work within the design lab, you have no idea how much influence one man among the entire teams had on its design. Hint: Ive on announced his retirement from Apple recently, while this has surely been in development for over a year at least.
    I’m with k2kw ... seems like Ive had his mitts in every facet of design. Remember how iOS fonts and icons changed once he took over software design elements when Forstall left? And iOS design elements have suddenly changed (IMO improved), this year.

    Maybe there was a falling out once the last  (third?) version of the butterfly keyboard was not swaying the masses. Pure speculation, of course, but quite possible 
  • Reply 43 of 81
    And for out next Magic trick, here’s the new iMac… Which is totally missing. 
    The iMac 4K and iMac 5K were both last updated seven months ago. If you're referring to the iMac Pro, that was two years ago. 
    With all due respect, I don't think that matters. The 15" MBP was also updated earlier this year and yet here we are with its 16" replacement. 
    watto_cobrarazorpit
  • Reply 44 of 81
    Now compare it to a thin and light Windows gaming laptop with a RTX 2080 GPU. I double dog dare you!
    But does it run Mac OS X?

    I use Macs because of the OS, not spec sheets.
    macxpressStrangeDayswatto_cobrapscooter63redgeminiparazorpit
  • Reply 45 of 81

    k2kw said:
    Great product now that Apple is fixing the mistakes of Ive.   I think that this will be a big seller as pros upgrade from the Butterfly keyboard and the pre2016 models.  I think it is the best that Apple could do given what Intel is providing.   I’m looking forward to a future model with 10th gen 10nm chips and Lpddr.
    Unless you work within the design lab, you have no idea how much influence one man among the entire teams had on its design. Hint: Ive on announced his retirement from Apple recently, while this has surely been in development for over a year at least.
    It doesn't matter.  As long as he's an employee of Apple and in charge of the entire industrial design team, the buck stops with him.  And say whatever you like about the 2016 MBP and the butterfly keyboard, the designs of those products & features were seriously flawed.  So much so that Apple had to release not one but two updates to the keyboard (one in 2018 and one in 2019). And in addition to that, they had to announce a 4-year keyboard replacement program for anyone that bought a 2016 to 2019 laptop with the butterfly keyboard.  Companies only do that when they know the design has flaws.  I agree with what Jason Snell wrote in this article

    "Apple is clearly guided, at least in part, by a design philosophy that considers size and weight to be the enemy of good. I like to call this Jobs’s Law, though it could just as easily be called the Ive Doctrine: Always strive for the next version of your product to be thinner and lighter than the current one.

    Most of us would agree that in general, the Ive Doctrine is a good idea. I toted an Apple laptop on my back between home and work (via a long walk to and from a bus stop) every day for nearly two decades. I felt every ounce of it, and rejoiced when I could replace my laptop with a lighter model.

    The current design of the MacBook Pro was introduced in 2016.

    But when Apple shaves off a few millimeters here and a few grams there, it’s also limiting the space available for processors and keyboard travel and cooling systems and batteries. You trade ounces for minutes or hours of battery life; fractions of inches are traded for more throttling of processors when they’re trying to work their hardest.

    At some point, though, Apple’s consideration of these trade-offs got too far out of balance. The 2016 MacBook Pro redesign became a flashpoint for unhappiness among the user base of one of Apple’s most important products. The laptop was thinner and lighter—but its cooling system wasn’t up to the task of keeping up with top-of-the-line processors, its keyboard lacked travel and was unreliable, the Touch Bar replaced the Escape key with a virtual version, and its commitment to an entirely USB-C lifestyle was premature."

    https://www.macworld.com/article/3453822/16-inch-macbook-pro-is-a-repudiation-of-the-ive-doctrine.html

    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 46 of 81
    SoliSoli Posts: 10,035member
    d_2 said:

    k2kw said:
    Great product now that Apple is fixing the mistakes of Ive.   I think that this will be a big seller as pros upgrade from the Butterfly keyboard and the pre2016 models.  I think it is the best that Apple could do given what Intel is providing.   I’m looking forward to a future model with 10th gen 10nm chips and Lpddr.
    Unless you work within the design lab, you have no idea how much influence one man among the entire teams had on its design. Hint: Ive on announced his retirement from Apple recently, while this has surely been in development for over a year at least.
    I’m with k2kw ... seems like Ive had his mitts in every facet of design. Remember how iOS fonts and icons changed once he took over software design elements when Forstall left? And iOS design elements have suddenly changed (IMO improved), this year.

    Maybe there was a falling out once the last  (third?) version of the butterfly keyboard was not swaying the masses. Pure speculation, of course, but quite possible 
    1) If Ive "had his mitts in every facet of design," as you put it, and Ive is still there, then you contribute this keyboard design to Ive.

    2) What's so odd is how you people think that these massive changes happen instantly. Even if Ive was actually not a part of Apple, you somehow think that this 16" MBP was somehow research, designed, prototyped, tested, had all the components sourced through dozens of vendors throughout the world, and then put into production to go on sale this week overnight. I can't fathom how anyone could possibly think that.
    StrangeDaysPickUrPoisonmacxpressronn
  • Reply 47 of 81
    d_2 said:

    k2kw said:
    Great product now that Apple is fixing the mistakes of Ive.   I think that this will be a big seller as pros upgrade from the Butterfly keyboard and the pre2016 models.  I think it is the best that Apple could do given what Intel is providing.   I’m looking forward to a future model with 10th gen 10nm chips and Lpddr.
    Unless you work within the design lab, you have no idea how much influence one man among the entire teams had on its design. Hint: Ive on announced his retirement from Apple recently, while this has surely been in development for over a year at least.
    I’m with k2kw ... seems like Ive had his mitts in every facet of design. Remember how iOS fonts and icons changed once he took over software design elements when Forstall left? And iOS design elements have suddenly changed (IMO improved), this year.

    Maybe there was a falling out once the last  (third?) version of the butterfly keyboard was not swaying the masses. Pure speculation, of course, but quite possible 
    But you missed the other part — Ive only recently announced his departure but this laptop was in development 1-2 years. So by your logic he must also get all the credit for what’s new, since he was there. 

    See how that works? You can’t have it both ways.
    edited November 2019 bb-15watto_cobramacxpressronn
  • Reply 48 of 81
    And for out next Magic trick, here’s the new iMac… Which is totally missing. 
    The iMac 4K and iMac 5K were both last updated seven months ago. If you're referring to the iMac Pro, that was two years ago. 
    With all due respect, I don't think that matters. The 15" MBP was also updated earlier this year and yet here we are with its 16" replacement. 
    A new MBP size doesn’t change the truth of Mike’s statement — the iMac is not missing, as it was just updated this year, 7 months ago. I bought one and it’s kickass. 
    edited November 2019 bb-15ronn
  • Reply 49 of 81
    And for out next Magic trick, here’s the new iMac… Which is totally missing. 
    The iMac 4K and iMac 5K were both last updated seven months ago. If you're referring to the iMac Pro, that was two years ago. 
    With all due respect, I don't think that matters. The 15" MBP was also updated earlier this year and yet here we are with its 16" replacement. 
    A new MBP size doesn’t change the truth of Mike’s statement — the iMac is not missing, as it was just updated this year, 7 months ago. I bought one and it’s kickass. 
    By no means was I trying to imply it was a lousy product.  I'm sure it is kickass.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 50 of 81
    And for out next Magic trick, here’s the new iMac… Which is totally missing. 
    The iMac 4K and iMac 5K were both last updated seven months ago. If you're referring to the iMac Pro, that was two years ago. 
    With all due respect, I don't think that matters. The 15" MBP was also updated earlier this year and yet here we are with its 16" replacement. 
    A new MBP size doesn’t change the truth of Mike’s statement — the iMac is not missing, as it was just updated this year, 7 months ago. I bought one and it’s kickass. 
    By no means was I trying to imply it was a lousy product.  I'm sure it is kickass.
    The question isn’t whether it’s lousy or kickass, Virtualshift claimed it was “totally missing”. Not so. 
    watto_cobraronn
  • Reply 51 of 81
    davgreg said:
    It surprises me that Apple has not included FaceID in the newer Mac laptops. It does not seem like it would be that difficult a thing to do.

    It looks like a nice laptop if the larger sized units are your thing. I recently bought a MacBook Air which is more to my needs.

    I do doubt the claimed battery life. I have never seen an Apple laptop live up to the claimed battery life and have owned a bunch over the years.
    Yes, I completely agree. Whilst Touch ID is great, the convenience of simply lifting up your screen to be automatically logged in would be a huge benefit. I'd like to see it automatically switch you to your screen if some else is logged in. An odd omission.
    watto_cobras.metcalf
  • Reply 52 of 81
    SoliSoli Posts: 10,035member
    laytech said:
    davgreg said:
    It surprises me that Apple has not included FaceID in the newer Mac laptops. It does not seem like it would be that difficult a thing to do.

    It looks like a nice laptop if the larger sized units are your thing. I recently bought a MacBook Air which is more to my needs.

    I do doubt the claimed battery life. I have never seen an Apple laptop live up to the claimed battery life and have owned a bunch over the years.
    Yes, I completely agree. Whilst Touch ID is great, the convenience of simply lifting up your screen to be automatically logged in would be a huge benefit. I'd like to see it automatically switch you to your screen if some else is logged in. An odd omission.
    Maybe that's what they're waiting for. Face ID on iDevices can currently only do a single face while Touch ID allowed for multiple fingers to be recorded. Perhaps there's a limitation with multiple faces and multiple accounts, as traditional OSes allow.
    watto_cobras.metcalf
  • Reply 53 of 81
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,400member

    How does the GPU ray tracing compare to a NVIDIA Windows laptop for half the price?
    Who cares, you'd be stuck running a crappier OS.
    Based in the experience of my customer, Windows 10 have been excellent.  No issues at all running AutoCAD, Revit, BIM 360 and Adobe CC, among other specialized applications.  Plus I have the flexibility of choosing a list of hardware and options not available with macOS.  Maybe you prefer macOS over Windows.  But it doesn't means Windows is a "crappier OS".  
    williamlondons.metcalf
  • Reply 54 of 81
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,400member
    Soli said:
    Now compare it to a thin and light Windows gaming laptop with a RTX 2080 GPU. I double dog dare you!
    I'd love to. Can you find me a thin and light Windows gaming laptop with a RTX 2080 GPU with an 11 hour battery life using a 16" 226 PPI IPS display with 500 nits of brightness? Because those are specs that are important to me.
    This is just curiosity on my part, but is there a 1 for 1 comparison (or as close as you can get if not) Windows laptop with similar specs and how does it compare price wise? I’m not looking at just raw physical components, I’m curious about comparing Adobe Photoshop or similar graphic intensive programs for Windows to MacBook versions and the real performance you are likely to get with either. 

    I can’t afford or justify by need either a Mac or Windows laptop anyway so it’s just curiosity on my part. 
    Check out the Thinkpad P1.  One of my customers have the 1st gen, and the experience have been excellent.  With Gen2 they don't have option for Nvidia RTX, but still have the Quadro T2000 and a 4K screen (282 PPI) with 500 nits of brightness and IR camera for Windows Hello.  On price, Thinkpad and MBP are very similar, but it all depends in the specs.  

    The other option that comes to my mind is the Dell Precision 5540, but I haven't work with that model yet. 
    williamlondon
  • Reply 55 of 81
    MplsPMplsP Posts: 3,911member
    macxpress said:

    I assume the memory is user-replaceable?
    No...just like all MacBook models nothing is user replaceable inside. Not really a big deal in the grand scheme of things. Very little people actually do this in the end. 
    I assumed not. It's been a while since memory was user-replaceable on any MacBook. I still wish it was simply because Apple has historically overcharged a bit for memory and that was a way one could save a bit of money up front, upgrading later on if necessary. 

    I haven't used windows in a long time but MacOS has always been better with memory usage and memory management, so even if you were a bit shy on the memory your machine would run ok as long as you weren't doing massive video or graphics editing projects. With Windows you always lived to regret not maxing out the memory.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 56 of 81
    bb-15bb-15 Posts: 283member
    danvm said:

    How does the GPU ray tracing compare to a NVIDIA Windows laptop for half the price?
    Who cares, you'd be stuck running a crappier OS.
    Based in the experience of my customer, Windows 10 have been excellent.  No issues at all running AutoCAD, Revit, BIM 360 and Adobe CC, among other specialized applications.  Plus I have the flexibility of choosing a list of hardware and options not available with macOS.  Maybe you prefer macOS over Windows.  But it doesn't means Windows is a "crappier OS".  
    Major OS comparisons are always going to be subjective. 
    For instance for me, the problems w/ some Windows 10 updates (some even leading to data loss) puts me off on upgrading/using that OS (which I easily could do on an iMac through Boot Camp).
    See Ars Technica for articles about the Windows 10 update problem. 

    ** You may argue that some Mac updates can also have problems but that is a different situation. 
    * In my experience w/ IS for many years, there is a lot more malware written for Windows compared w/ the Mac. 
    As a result a Windows user (which includes me for several years) should do OS updates as soon as they are available.
    By contrast a Mac user can wait to see how a Mac OS update performs since the Mac user is at less risk to getting malware.
    ** You may argue that in side by side contests a Mac computer is just as easily hacked as a Windows machine. But those hacking contests don’t replicate the risk in the real world.
    Because Windows is almost always the standard in big business, banking, government, there is an economic incentive to produce more malware for Windows.  

    *** Result; for some use cases Windows 10 can be considered a worse OS compared w/ Mac OS. I wouldn’t use the term crappier because that’s not my style but the meaning is the same. 
    And the answer remains, it depends on the user. 

    (PS. I can bring up other reasons why a person may choose to use the Mac/Apple products in general but I prefer to present one reason at a time.)
    edited November 2019 muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 57 of 81
    cpsrocpsro Posts: 3,192member
    I wish the trackpad was narrowed to avoid the frequent false touches with the base of my right thumb that occur while typing. The home keys are roughly 1/2" left of center, but it feels like much more than that (relative to the trackpad) because my right, dominant hand is so much larger/beefier.
    edited November 2019 s.metcalf
  • Reply 58 of 81
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,400member
    bb-15 said:
    danvm said:

    How does the GPU ray tracing compare to a NVIDIA Windows laptop for half the price?
    Who cares, you'd be stuck running a crappier OS.
    Based in the experience of my customer, Windows 10 have been excellent.  No issues at all running AutoCAD, Revit, BIM 360 and Adobe CC, among other specialized applications.  Plus I have the flexibility of choosing a list of hardware and options not available with macOS.  Maybe you prefer macOS over Windows.  But it doesn't means Windows is a "crappier OS".  
    Major OS comparisons are always going to be subjective. 
    For instance for me, the problems w/ some Windows 10 updates (some even leading to data loss) puts me off on upgrading/using that OS (which I easily could do on an iMac through Boot Camp).
    See Ars Technica for articles about the Windows 10 update problem. 

    ** You may argue that some Mac updates can also have problems but that is a different situation. 
    * In my experience w/ IS for many years, there is a lot more malware written for Windows compared w/ the Mac. 
    As a result a Windows user (which includes me for several years) should do OS updates as soon as they are available.
    By contrast a Mac user can wait to see how a Mac OS update performs since the Mac user is at less risk to getting malware.
    ** You may argue that in side by side contests a Mac computer is just as easily hacked as a Windows machine. But those hacking contests don’t replicate the risk in the real world.
    Because Windows is almost always the standard in big business, banking, government, there is an economic incentive to produce more malware for Windows.  

    *** Result; for some use cases Windows 10 can be considered a worse OS compared w/ Mac OS. I wouldn’t use the term crappier because that’s not my style but the meaning is the same. 
    And the answer remains, it depends on the user. 

    (PS. I can bring up other reasons why a person may choose to use the Mac/Apple products in general but I prefer to present one reason at a time.)
    I suppose the data loss issue you mentioned was for the Windows 10 October 2018 upgrade, where some users reported missing documents.  The thing is that macOS Catalina had issues with missing data, in this case emails lost,   

    https://appleinsider.com/articles/19/10/12/missing-message-issues-plague-mail-users-in-macos-catalina

    How is this better or worst than what happened with the Windows 10 upgrade and the missing files?  There are Ars articles, among many other articles about Windows 10 upgrade issues.  But I can find articles about issues with macOS and iOS updates.  The truth is that Windows and macOS and iOS have their list of recent problems. 

    Windows 10 have more malware, and as you explained, being the most popular desktop OS maybe one the reasons.  But, what would happen if macOS had the Windows 10 market share, and became the target of hackers and malware?  Would it make it a worst OS than Windows?  

    Both macOS and Windows 10 have their good and bad things.  I don't consider neither of them bad at all, or one better than the other, since both are very stable and secure.  Like I said before, which one is better is a matter of personal preference and the applications / tools the user needs to complete his/her workflow.  Someone may have their reasons to prefer macOS, but there are others that will give you their reasons to prefer Windows.  Again, personal preference.  Not necessarily that one is better or worse than the other.  
    williamlondon
  • Reply 59 of 81
    bb-15bb-15 Posts: 283member
    danvm said:
    bb-15 said:
    danvm said:

    How does the GPU ray tracing compare to a NVIDIA Windows laptop for half the price?
    Who cares, you'd be stuck running a crappier OS.
    Based in the experience of my customer, Windows 10 have been excellent.  No issues at all running AutoCAD, Revit, BIM 360 and Adobe CC, among other specialized applications.  Plus I have the flexibility of choosing a list of hardware and options not available with macOS.  Maybe you prefer macOS over Windows.  But it doesn't means Windows is a "crappier OS".  
    Major OS comparisons are always going to be subjective. 
    For instance for me, the problems w/ some Windows 10 updates (some even leading to data loss) puts me off on upgrading/using that OS (which I easily could do on an iMac through Boot Camp).
    See Ars Technica for articles about the Windows 10 update problem. 

    ** You may argue that some Mac updates can also have problems but that is a different situation. 
    * In my experience w/ IS for many years, there is a lot more malware written for Windows compared w/ the Mac. 
    As a result a Windows user (which includes me for several years) should do OS updates as soon as they are available.
    By contrast a Mac user can wait to see how a Mac OS update performs since the Mac user is at less risk to getting malware.
    ** You may argue that in side by side contests a Mac computer is just as easily hacked as a Windows machine. But those hacking contests don’t replicate the risk in the real world.
    Because Windows is almost always the standard in big business, banking, government, there is an economic incentive to produce more malware for Windows.  

    *** Result; for some use cases Windows 10 can be considered a worse OS compared w/ Mac OS. I wouldn’t use the term crappier because that’s not my style but the meaning is the same. 
    And the answer remains, it depends on the user. 

    (PS. I can bring up other reasons why a person may choose to use the Mac/Apple products in general but I prefer to present one reason at a time.)
    I suppose the data loss issue you mentioned was for the Windows 10 October 2018 upgrade, where some users reported missing documents.  The thing is that macOS Catalina had issues with missing data, in this case emails lost,   

    https://appleinsider.com/articles/19/10/12/missing-message-issues-plague-mail-users-in-macos-catalina

    How is this better or worst than what happened with the Windows 10 upgrade and the missing files?  There are Ars articles, among many other articles about Windows 10 upgrade issues.  But I can find articles about issues with macOS and iOS updates.  The truth is that Windows and macOS and iOS have their list of recent problems. 

    Windows 10 have more malware, and as you explained, being the most popular desktop OS maybe one the reasons.  But, what would happen if macOS had the Windows 10 market share, and became the target of hackers and malware?  Would it make it a worst OS than Windows?  

    Both macOS and Windows 10 have their good and bad things.  I don't consider neither of them bad at all, or one better than the other, since both are very stable and secure.  Like I said before, which one is better is a matter of personal preference and the applications / tools the user needs to complete his/her workflow.  Someone may have their reasons to prefer macOS, but there are others that will give you their reasons to prefer Windows.  Again, personal preference.  Not necessarily that one is better or worse than the other.  
    You do not understanding what I wrote or your bias won’t allow you to understand. 
    - Again, the Mac user doesn’t have to upgrade immediately for the reasons I presented (less malware allows for waiting on updates). 
    - But the Windows user including with 10 needs to upgrade right away (a huge amount of malware). That partly is what makes using Windows such an unpleasant experience for some (including me).
    That is a point in favor of using a Mac for some users. 

    * Speculations about what if the Mac had the same market share is a straw man argument.
    Fact; Windows still has close to 90% desktop/laptop market share. Malware amounts stem from that. 

    * You recommended the Lenovo Thinkpad and yet in 2015; 
    • Lenovo was caught selling laptops pre-installed with Superfish malware that opened up doors for hackers.
    • In August, Lenovo again got caught installing unwanted and non-removable malware into part of the BIOS reserved for custom drivers.
    Then Lenovo embedding tracking software into its laptops and workstations from Lenovo ThinkPad, ThinkCentre, and ThinkStation series.

    * Of course I’m sure you will explain everything away and claim that using Windows 10 should never lead anyone to believe that the OS & its ecosystem is inferior compared w/ using a Mac. 
    edited November 2019 watto_cobrachia
  • Reply 60 of 81
    Not to pile on, but I use Win10 every workday, 8am-5pm (and have done so for the last two years)... actually, earlier versions of Windows consume my entire  IT career of 35 years; and MacOS in the evenings and weekends for the last 15 (also serious work, although of a different nature).

    Absolutely, positively... Windows (in any version) is an inferior OS experience.  So much time wasted searching online how to make it either stop doing something stupid it shouldn't be doing in the first place, or vice versa... inevitably leading to some arcane registry workaround or some convoluted, buried option somewhere.  (For crying out loud, why maintain a dumbed-down "Settings" apart from "Control Panel" in the first place?)

    "Crappy" might be a smidgen over-the-top, but I know what I'd use if I had the choice.
    edited November 2019 henrybayStrangeDaysmuthuk_vanalingam
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