Win - win - win. Having the ability to remove an individual key-cap to remove debris alone is a huge improvement over the butterfly keyboards. The increased key travel likely means that a piece of debris that would compromise a butterfly key will be much less likely to cause an issue with the new keyboard. For people who switch between keyboards (most of us?) the increased travel will lessen the difference between the keyboards.
I'm sure there are people whose job it is to research stuff like this, but it seems to me that there is probably a minimum distance needed for comfortable typing. From the days of manual typewriters that had a travel of over an inch we've steadily progressed to shallower and shallower depths. In general, no one had problems with the Mac keyboards that had travel of ~2mm and then more recently just over a mm but many people didn't like the shallow, 0.5mm travel of the butterfly keyboards. Extrapolating from that it appears going much below 1 mm gets bothersome for people.
I agree with you. Good for majority of people. Not for me though. \
I love ߒ堢utterfly ߦ렠keyboard, and especially its travel distance. I wish it had even a bit less force. I fly on this keyboard. It's such a great joy to type on it.
Boom! There it is!
I actually scrolled through this thread to see if there was actually one of you status quo defenders who would continue to defend the failed butterfly keyboard, and yes, there is one.
You came here looking for someone who actually likes the previous keyboard so you can chide them for being full of shit? Seriously, man?
Most people won't read 90% of what he wrote so it's virtually shitalk anyway.
Guess this is the nearest we will see apple kind of accepting that the butterfly was a flawed design. Going back to the old working design with very minor changes. They probably can't talk more about the reason for dumping butterfly and going back for fear of litigation.
Not an example of post hoc fallacy. An example of logical deduction.
Can you explain why the butterfly mechanism is responsible for minute particles being stuck under keys while the scissor mechanism is more forgiving? I certainly can't, but I can see how making a key with considerable less travel and increased tolerances that disallow reasonable debris under the keys could cause them to stop working properly.
Can you explain to me the physics as to how it's not possible make a scissor keyboard mechanism not work well (despite that being something I've experienced on countless occasions with keyboards over the decades) or how a butterfly keyboard mechanism wouldn't less prone to faults if it had additional travel? I have seen zero evidence that shows that the butterfly mechanism is an inherently flawed concept and I can easily point to reasons why all the Mac notebooks I've used and owned with that keyboard are the least comfortable and least efficient physical keyboards I've used from Apple in the last 3 decades.
Win - win - win. Having the ability to remove an individual key-cap to remove debris alone is a huge improvement over the butterfly keyboards. The increased key travel likely means that a piece of debris that would compromise a butterfly key will be much less likely to cause an issue with the new keyboard. For people who switch between keyboards (most of us?) the increased travel will lessen the difference between the keyboards.
I'm sure there are people whose job it is to research stuff like this, but it seems to me that there is probably a minimum distance needed for comfortable typing. From the days of manual typewriters that had a travel of over an inch we've steadily progressed to shallower and shallower depths. In general, no one had problems with the Mac keyboards that had travel of ~2mm and then more recently just over a mm but many people didn't like the shallow, 0.5mm travel of the butterfly keyboards. Extrapolating from that it appears going much below 1 mm gets bothersome for people.
I agree with you. Good for majority of people. Not for me though. \
I love 💕 butterfly 🦋 keyboard, and especially its travel distance. I wish it had even a bit less force. I fly on this keyboard. It's such a great joy to type on it.
Boom! There it is!
I actually scrolled through this thread to see if there was actually one of you status quo defenders who would continue to defend the failed butterfly keyboard, and yes, there is one.
You came here looking for someone who actually likes the previous keyboard so you can chide them for being full of shit? Seriously, man?
Win - win - win. Having the ability to remove an individual key-cap to remove debris alone is a huge improvement over the butterfly keyboards. The increased key travel likely means that a piece of debris that would compromise a butterfly key will be much less likely to cause an issue with the new keyboard. For people who switch between keyboards (most of us?) the increased travel will lessen the difference between the keyboards.
I'm sure there are people whose job it is to research stuff like this, but it seems to me that there is probably a minimum distance needed for comfortable typing. From the days of manual typewriters that had a travel of over an inch we've steadily progressed to shallower and shallower depths. In general, no one had problems with the Mac keyboards that had travel of ~2mm and then more recently just over a mm but many people didn't like the shallow, 0.5mm travel of the butterfly keyboards. Extrapolating from that it appears going much below 1 mm gets bothersome for people.
I agree with you. Good for majority of people. Not for me though. \
I love 💕 butterfly 🦋 keyboard, and especially its travel distance. I wish it had even a bit less force. I fly on this keyboard. It's such a great joy to type on it.
Boom! There it is!
I actually scrolled through this thread to see if there was actually one of you status quo defenders who would continue to defend the failed butterfly keyboard, and yes, there is one.
You came here looking for someone who actually likes the previous keyboard so you can chide them for being full of shit? Seriously, man?
No need for the profanity. I am not full of feces, no. And no, I did not come directly here to give you a hard time. I read the article and then checked the comments like I always do. But as I read each comment I was curious how many would switch and worship the current status quo of scissor switches versus the previous status quo of butterflies.
I've been an Apple fan for decades, but I don't worship everything Apple says and does. I judge each change on its own merits. I don't try to defend Apple saying, "Crying about it in forums does nothing. Apple won't go back." like some of you folks do. The good news is that Apple DOES go back. The scissor switch is a switch back! In fact, I just sent them a MBP Feedback message congratulating them on that change, asking that the restore the SD card slot in an updated version. It doesn't matter to me if my feedback is ignored. If they keep coming out with machines that don't fully suit me, I simply won't buy them. But I feel obligated to tell them what I will buy. If most Mac users did that, we'd probably have a heck of a lot more practical hardware functionality than we have now. I love Apple's design aesthetic, but with multiple MacBook product lines, they can easily exercise minimalism on the low end lines and maximize ports on the "Pro." That's how it used to be on the MBP and is what it still should be now. It's not like we don't pay enough for that. Well, at least the keyboard improved. I think it will result in fewer complaints which is good for the customer and for Apple too.
Win - win - win. Having the ability to remove an individual key-cap to remove debris alone is a huge improvement over the butterfly keyboards. The increased key travel likely means that a piece of debris that would compromise a butterfly key will be much less likely to cause an issue with the new keyboard. For people who switch between keyboards (most of us?) the increased travel will lessen the difference between the keyboards.
I'm sure there are people whose job it is to research stuff like this, but it seems to me that there is probably a minimum distance needed for comfortable typing. From the days of manual typewriters that had a travel of over an inch we've steadily progressed to shallower and shallower depths. In general, no one had problems with the Mac keyboards that had travel of ~2mm and then more recently just over a mm but many people didn't like the shallow, 0.5mm travel of the butterfly keyboards. Extrapolating from that it appears going much below 1 mm gets bothersome for people.
Yes, keyboards have changed drastically order the past 150 years. My mom’s Underwood, which I still have, does have a depression of a good inch. But not only that. It takes several ounces of pressure to activate a letter. It’s so hard, that if you press the key slowly, you literally can’t activate the letter. It just stops. It needs the momentum of a fast press to work. The keyboard is also at least 2 inches higher in the rear as in the front.
guess what? People didn’t complain, because that was the way it was back then. People were just happy that they could type. People are too blasé these days.
I don’t understand why they would not roll this new improved design out over the whole product line.
Additionally I would love a Touch Bar (with separate escape and fingerprint) also on all(!) Apple keyboards including the external keyboards. Only if the Touch Bar is standard for all macs the developers can take it for granted everyone has access to it and will make use of it more often.
Perfect would be an all-OLED-keyboard for international use: one keyboard to fit them all. Switching between languages by software. (I speak and write several languages and switch keyboard layouts often, always searching for some special symbols which are hiding at different places).
It’s a bit thicker. So they would have to do a complete redesign of the case just for the keyboard. I imagine that they’re waiting for a bit of time to go by before they make that decision. If it proves much more reliable, and a large majority prefer it, they will likely go ahead and do that. But if the results aren’t as good as they hope, and expect, they probably won’t.
but it helps to remember that Apple has extremely sophisticated facilities in their design departments, including full CAD/CAM shops. These can mill a new design on the spot, for testing. There were a couple of articles showing some of that capability, though they covered some machinery because they were either designed from the ground up by Apple, or heavily modified commercial products. So while milling from slabs of metal is more expensive than stamping them out, as most other manufacturers do, it’s very easy, and cheap, to come up with a modded design and machine it out right there.
so keeping that in mind, it’s very likely that Apple has a number of modded cases they’re trying out, just in uh, case.
Win - win - win. Having the ability to remove an individual key-cap to remove debris alone is a huge improvement over the butterfly keyboards. The increased key travel likely means that a piece of debris that would compromise a butterfly key will be much less likely to cause an issue with the new keyboard. For people who switch between keyboards (most of us?) the increased travel will lessen the difference between the keyboards.
I'm sure there are people whose job it is to research stuff like this, but it seems to me that there is probably a minimum distance needed for comfortable typing. From the days of manual typewriters that had a travel of over an inch we've steadily progressed to shallower and shallower depths. In general, no one had problems with the Mac keyboards that had travel of ~2mm and then more recently just over a mm but many people didn't like the shallow, 0.5mm travel of the butterfly keyboards. Extrapolating from that it appears going much below 1 mm gets bothersome for people.
Yes, keyboards have changed drastically order the past 150 years. My mom’s Underwood, which I still have, does have a depression of a good inch. But not only that. It takes several ounces of pressure to activate a letter. It’s so hard, that if you press the key slowly, you literally can’t activate the letter. It just stops. It needs the momentum of a fast press to work. The keyboard is also at least 2 inches higher in the rear as in the front.
guess what? People didn’t complain, because that was the way it was back then. People were just happy that they could type. People are too blasé these days.
Perhaps, but if we use the argument that things were worse in the past as a reason to simply accept the status quo of the present we would never have any progress.
Guess this is the nearest we will see apple kind of accepting that the butterfly was a flawed design. Going back to the old working design with very minor changes. They probably can't talk more about the reason for dumping butterfly and going back for fear of litigation.
Not an example of post hoc fallacy. An example of logical deduction.
Can you explain why the butterfly mechanism is responsible for minute particles being stuck under keys while the scissor mechanism is more forgiving? I certainly can't, but I can see how making a key with considerable less travel and increased tolerances that disallow reasonable debris under the keys could cause them to stop working properly.
Can you explain to me the physics as to how it's not possible make a scissor keyboard mechanism not work well (despite that being something I've experienced on countless occasions with keyboards over the decades) or how a butterfly keyboard mechanism wouldn't less prone to faults if it had additional travel? I have seen zero evidence that shows that the butterfly mechanism is an inherently flawed concept and I can easily point to reasons why all the Mac notebooks I've used and owned with that keyboard are the least comfortable and least efficient physical keyboards I've used from Apple in the last 3 decades.
My (admittedly shallow) living room analysis is that it's a simple matter of ratios. If the total key travel is 0.4mm (what I measured on my MBP) and you have a 0.1-0.2mm particle (100-200 µm if you want to make it sound impressively small,) that can restrict the movement of the key travel by 25-50%. Add to that the fact that 0.4mm is the maximum distance traveled by the end of the 'wings' in the butterfly mechanism, so if the particle is further in it only takes an minute particle to cause a major impact in key travel.
Also, just comparing the mechanisms, it seems like there's more room for debris to more around and escape with the scissors mechanism than with the butterfly. Again - that's just some guy looking at the designs, so take it or leave it.
Guess this is the nearest we will see apple kind of accepting that the butterfly was a flawed design. Going back to the old working design with very minor changes. They probably can't talk more about the reason for dumping butterfly and going back for fear of litigation.
I doubt litigation would be a problem. Manufacturers come out with new designs that are inferior, in some way, to an older design all the time. In fact, Consumer Reports has said, for the more than 40 years I’ve been reading it, that the test report they do, is just valid for that model, and a later one may not perform as well, or be as reliable.
while couple of cases were already filed some time ago, one was thrown out, and the other is in limbo. Also, most people do like these keyboards, and most have not had a problem. It’s a fairly large minority that doesn’t. It’s not actually overwhelming.
if Apple able to recreate the click click feel in an optional keyboard. I will pay $500 for it.
No, you won’t. There are plentry of excellent switch keyboards with the same feel of the old IBM and Mac keyboards, and they cost around $150 to $250. If you haven’t bought one of these already, there’s no way you’re going to pay $500 for the Apple label for one.
Win - win - win. Having the ability to remove an individual key-cap to remove debris alone is a huge improvement over the butterfly keyboards. The increased key travel likely means that a piece of debris that would compromise a butterfly key will be much less likely to cause an issue with the new keyboard. For people who switch between keyboards (most of us?) the increased travel will lessen the difference between the keyboards.
I'm sure there are people whose job it is to research stuff like this, but it seems to me that there is probably a minimum distance needed for comfortable typing. From the days of manual typewriters that had a travel of over an inch we've steadily progressed to shallower and shallower depths. In general, no one had problems with the Mac keyboards that had travel of ~2mm and then more recently just over a mm but many people didn't like the shallow, 0.5mm travel of the butterfly keyboards. Extrapolating from that it appears going much below 1 mm gets bothersome for people.
I agree with you. Good for majority of people. Not for me though. \
I love 💕 butterfly 🦋 keyboard, and especially its travel distance. I wish it had even a bit less force. I fly on this keyboard. It's such a great joy to type on it.
Boom! There it is!
I actually scrolled through this thread to see if there was actually one of you status quo defenders who would continue to defend the failed butterfly keyboard, and yes, there is one. I applaud you, urahara, for sticking by your guns and not allowing your preference to float with the wind. You like that butterfly keyboard and you are sticking by that sentiment, even when others who once lambasted me in this forum for daring to say "more key travel is better" now embrace the new keyboard with MORE key travel only because that's what Apple's pitching to us now.
I for one like that which is good (i.e., more key travel) and loath that which causes fingers to ache (i.e., almost no key travel, such as butterfly keyboards). It's great to see Apple has PARTLY listened to those of us daring enough to speak our voice against their past low-travel foolishness, but that doesn't mean the new scissor keyboard is necessary "good." It just means it is comparatively better. I can say that because it seems the 16" MBP keyboard has the same key travel and stability as the space gray Magic Keyboard, one of which I purchased recently as a replacement for my failing Matias aluminum keyboard. That Magic Keyboard is very low travel but much more travel than butterfly keyboards, which I have typed on before at Apple stores, which is a good thing. But the Magic Keyboard is still a far cry from the glorious key travel of older wired Apple keyboards like the one I ordered with my 27" iMac in late 2009. I still have one of those wired aluminum keyboards (with white keys and numeric keypad) at the office and love it to pieces. Sure, it's not the key travel of an old mechanical, but it's good enough for my fingers which love to type. The Magic Keyboard of today is only barely enough, in my opinion.
I love key stability, and I think that is really what most butterfly keyboard lovers rave about. But like I said, even the Magic Keyboard has that same key stability, and no doubt the 16" MBP does too. The kicker is key TRAVEL. How some people can like near-zero travel is beyond me. It's no different than rapping your fingers on a wood desk. That wood desk is as stable as can be, but stability is not everything. Key stability is only part part of the typing experience, and although it is important, it isn't enough to replace key travel. And that is why Apple made a good choice in restoring at least some key travel in the 16" MBP.
By the way, I bought the Matias aluminum space gray keyboard in the first place because at that time Apple had not released their iMac Pro with its space gray magic keyboard. The Matias captivated me because of its 1 year battery life, which even to this day makes me upset Apple doesn't do the same with their Magic Keyboard. And while the key travel on the Matias was about the same as the keyboard on my 2015 15" MBP (which is very acceptable and good), the key stability was the most horrid I have ever experienced in my 35+ years of using computers. The white silkscreen printing came off very quickly, and keys broke off too. That ultimately led me to getting the Magic Keyboard, which again has what I consider to be a "barely acceptable" amount of key travel, and certainly much less than the 2015 15" MBP I own and love (which has the same key travel as the 2017 MacBook Air, two of which I bought for my children a year ago).
All said, if you wouldn't accept any less key travel than the 2015 and earlier MacBook Pros, you probably won't like the Space Gray Magic Keyboard or the new 16" MBP. But if you find the Magic Keyboard acceptable, then the 16" MBP should fall in line with that and be acceptable too. But for me, that horrid butterfly keyboard lacks the key travel to make my fingers happy. And the faster Apple can rid the world of that thing the better.
Key TRAVEL. It does fingers good.
So, you chose to write ten times as many words needed to say that you don’t like the butterfly keyboard.
Win - win - win. Having the ability to remove an individual key-cap to remove debris alone is a huge improvement over the butterfly keyboards. The increased key travel likely means that a piece of debris that would compromise a butterfly key will be much less likely to cause an issue with the new keyboard. For people who switch between keyboards (most of us?) the increased travel will lessen the difference between the keyboards.
I'm sure there are people whose job it is to research stuff like this, but it seems to me that there is probably a minimum distance needed for comfortable typing. From the days of manual typewriters that had a travel of over an inch we've steadily progressed to shallower and shallower depths. In general, no one had problems with the Mac keyboards that had travel of ~2mm and then more recently just over a mm but many people didn't like the shallow, 0.5mm travel of the butterfly keyboards. Extrapolating from that it appears going much below 1 mm gets bothersome for people.
Yes, keyboards have changed drastically order the past 150 years. My mom’s Underwood, which I still have, does have a depression of a good inch. But not only that. It takes several ounces of pressure to activate a letter. It’s so hard, that if you press the key slowly, you literally can’t activate the letter. It just stops. It needs the momentum of a fast press to work. The keyboard is also at least 2 inches higher in the rear as in the front.
guess what? People didn’t complain, because that was the way it was back then. People were just happy that they could type. People are too blasé these days.
Perhaps, but if we use the argument that things were worse in the past as a reason to simply accept the status quo of the present we would never have any progress.
Guess this is the nearest we will see apple kind of accepting that the butterfly was a flawed design. Going back to the old working design with very minor changes. They probably can't talk more about the reason for dumping butterfly and going back for fear of litigation.
Not an example of post hoc fallacy. An example of logical deduction.
Can you explain why the butterfly mechanism is responsible for minute particles being stuck under keys while the scissor mechanism is more forgiving? I certainly can't, but I can see how making a key with considerable less travel and increased tolerances that disallow reasonable debris under the keys could cause them to stop working properly.
Can you explain to me the physics as to how it's not possible make a scissor keyboard mechanism not work well (despite that being something I've experienced on countless occasions with keyboards over the decades) or how a butterfly keyboard mechanism wouldn't less prone to faults if it had additional travel? I have seen zero evidence that shows that the butterfly mechanism is an inherently flawed concept and I can easily point to reasons why all the Mac notebooks I've used and owned with that keyboard are the least comfortable and least efficient physical keyboards I've used from Apple in the last 3 decades.
My (admittedly shallow) living room analysis is that it's a simple matter of ratios. If the total key travel is 0.4mm (what I measured on my MBP) and you have a 0.1-0.2mm particle (100-200 µm if you want to make it sound impressively small,) that can restrict the movement of the key travel by 25-50%. Add to that the fact that 0.4mm is the maximum distance traveled by the end of the 'wings' in the butterfly mechanism, so if the particle is further in it only takes an minute particle to cause a major impact in key travel.
Also, just comparing the mechanisms, it seems like there's more room for debris to more around and escape with the scissors mechanism than with the butterfly. Again - that's just some guy looking at the designs, so take it or leave it.
I’m not excusing poor design or implementation. But I remember a day when people simply didn’t complain about keyboards. And not that there weren’t many different types, because there were. My old Mac Pro keyboard, that cost me $300 in 1992, is considered to be one of the best keyboards ever made. But trying to type on it today is difficult, because I’m no longer used to that way of typing. I wouldn’t use it if I could. Most people,e do like the butterfly keyboard, and a number who didn’t when they first got it, liked it after a while. Just a matter of getting used to it. Of course, there will always be those who refuse to adapt, and complain all the time, while most other shrug.
the biggest problem wasn’t whether enough people liked it, though that is a problem, it’s the dirt issue. People I know who have the notebook at home, on a clean desk, tell me they haven’t had problems. But a couple of these who carry it around, have.
the butterfly keyboard was innovation and progress. Don’t forget that. It just didn’t work as well as hoped. It’s called; “Back to the drawing board.”
Win - win - win. Having the ability to remove an individual key-cap to remove debris alone is a huge improvement over the butterfly keyboards. The increased key travel likely means that a piece of debris that would compromise a butterfly key will be much less likely to cause an issue with the new keyboard. For people who switch between keyboards (most of us?) the increased travel will lessen the difference between the keyboards.
I'm sure there are people whose job it is to research stuff like this, but it seems to me that there is probably a minimum distance needed for comfortable typing. From the days of manual typewriters that had a travel of over an inch we've steadily progressed to shallower and shallower depths. In general, no one had problems with the Mac keyboards that had travel of ~2mm and then more recently just over a mm but many people didn't like the shallow, 0.5mm travel of the butterfly keyboards. Extrapolating from that it appears going much below 1 mm gets bothersome for people.
I agree with you. Good for majority of people. Not for me though. \
I love 💕 butterfly 🦋 keyboard, and especially its travel distance. I wish it had even a bit less force. I fly on this keyboard. It's such a great joy to type on it.
Boom! There it is!
I actually scrolled through this thread to see if there was actually one of you status quo defenders who would continue to defend the failed butterfly keyboard, and yes, there is one. I applaud you, urahara, for sticking by your guns and not allowing your preference to float with the wind. You like that butterfly keyboard and you are sticking by that sentiment, even when others who once lambasted me in this forum for daring to say "more key travel is better" now embrace the new keyboard with MORE key travel only because that's what Apple's pitching to us now.
Heaven forbid that anyone express any (clearly false) preferences that differ from the omniscient jdw! Perhaps urahara can be banned (or at least shunned) for this heresy.
Guess this is the nearest we will see apple kind of accepting that the butterfly was a flawed design. Going back to the old working design with very minor changes. They probably can't talk more about the reason for dumping butterfly and going back for fear of litigation.
I doubt litigation would be a problem. Manufacturers come out with new designs that are inferior, in some way, to an older design all the time. In fact, Consumer Reports has said, for the more than 40 years I’ve been reading it, that the test report they do, is just valid for that model, and a later one may not perform as well, or be as reliable.
while couple of cases were already filed some time ago, one was thrown out, and the other is in limbo. Also, most people do like these keyboards, and most have not had a problem. It’s a fairly large minority that doesn’t. It’s not actually overwhelming.
After exchanging a 2019 macbook air thrice in a month due to the butterfly keyboard double entering particular keys, and not having a problem with the fourth one for about an year after that, I am inclined to think there is more to it than just dust. I suspect manufacturing/assembling these without defects wasn't easy and prone to failures. So, I take all the official positions on the butterfly keyboard with a good helping of salt.
I don’t understand why they would not roll this new improved design out over the whole product line.
They will, but Apple still has the existing MacBook models to sell, so Schiller does what he was named for — he shills, as he always does. If Apple confirmed that they will switch the keyboard mechanism in future models, a significant number of buyers will hold out (ie stop buying) the models currently on the market.
I have absolutely no doubt that all remaining left-over MacBook Pro models will see an update over the next year, or less. Really, what’s left? The MacBook Pro 13” is a no-brained to upgrade, and the 16” effectively replaces the 15” anyway, so I believe that 15” will be EOL’d soon, or be replaced with something between 13” and 15”.
It makes perfect sense to have taken the keyboard from the Magic Keyboard (which has seen absolutely no failure reports our problems) and adapt it for the MacBook Pro. Another instance where Apple had been testing and rolling out some alternate tech, right under our eyes, with absolutely nobody noticing - Apple does that a lot.
I'd wager this is the same keyboard that's in the 2019 iMacs. It's scissor, it has shorter travel than the 2015 MBP but more than the 2016+ ones, but feels really nice, I like it a lot. No doubt this will trickle down to the other MacBooks as they get updated. Apart from key travel, it seems this is pretty much the same as the older Macbooks, layout an' all.
The article pretty much stated that, quite clearly, that this is the same as the magic keyboard. Helps to read the article.
Guess this is the nearest we will see apple kind of accepting that the butterfly was a flawed design. Going back to the old working design with very minor changes. They probably can't talk more about the reason for dumping butterfly and going back for fear of litigation.
"[The Butterfly keyboard] had some things it did really well," Schiller told CNET, "like creating a much more stable key platform. It felt more flat and firm under your finger - some people really like that, but other people weren't really happy with that."
"We got sort of a mixed reaction," he continued. "We had some quality issues we had to work on. “
To be fair, virtually no other company would admit anything, either. Apple has a much more passionate user base, and by virtue of the fact that MacOS users are automatically locked into buying their hardware from a single source, they have a more unified experience, good or bad. If Lenovo had created a crappy keyboard, some people would have noticed but there are 100 other windows laptops around, so it really would never have come to the surface. Apple has 3 different laptops. Prior to the end 16", they all had the butterfly keyboard so issues were much easier to see.
Guess this is the nearest we will see apple kind of accepting that the butterfly was a flawed design. Going back to the old working design with very minor changes. They probably can't talk more about the reason for dumping butterfly and going back for fear of litigation.
I doubt litigation would be a problem. Manufacturers come out with new designs that are inferior, in some way, to an older design all the time. In fact, Consumer Reports has said, for the more than 40 years I’ve been reading it, that the test report they do, is just valid for that model, and a later one may not perform as well, or be as reliable.
while couple of cases were already filed some time ago, one was thrown out, and the other is in limbo. Also, most people do like these keyboards, and most have not had a problem. It’s a fairly large minority that doesn’t. It’s not actually overwhelming.
After exchanging a 2019 macbook air thrice in a month due to the butterfly keyboard double entering particular keys, and not having a problem with the fourth one for about an year after that, I am inclined to think there is more to it than just dust. I suspect manufacturing/assembling these without defects wasn't easy and prone to failures. So, I take all the official positions on the butterfly keyboard with a good helping of salt.
Swiller mentioned that, and I posted in another thread how my 2017 MBP has 0.3-0.45mm of key travel and AI staff replied that Apple's specification (and their measurements) were something like 0.6mm. Perhaps, as you suggest, the mechanism was difficult to assemble and the variability led to some units being much more prone to problems than others. Who knows? In the end it doesn't matter, though. If it's a great keyboard when made correctly but 30% of the units are made incorrectly it's still not a great keyboard.
Guess this is the nearest we will see apple kind of accepting that the butterfly was a flawed design. Going back to the old working design with very minor changes. They probably can't talk more about the reason for dumping butterfly and going back for fear of litigation.
I doubt litigation would be a problem. Manufacturers come out with new designs that are inferior, in some way, to an older design all the time. In fact, Consumer Reports has said, for the more than 40 years I’ve been reading it, that the test report they do, is just valid for that model, and a later one may not perform as well, or be as reliable.
while couple of cases were already filed some time ago, one was thrown out, and the other is in limbo. Also, most people do like these keyboards, and most have not had a problem. It’s a fairly large minority that doesn’t. It’s not actually overwhelming.
After exchanging a 2019 macbook air thrice in a month due to the butterfly keyboard double entering particular keys, and not having a problem with the fourth one for about an year after that, I am inclined to think there is more to it than just dust. I suspect manufacturing/assembling these without defects wasn't easy and prone to failures. So, I take all the official positions on the butterfly keyboard with a good helping of salt.
That’s unusual. Most complaints seem to be a result of dirt. But I do think that with such a small key travel, which is about a 50th of an inch (since some people have a hard time picturing .5mm), the slightest movement out of tolerances in manufacturing, and possibly assembly, can result in a problem.
Comments
Can you explain to me the physics as to how it's not possible make a scissor keyboard mechanism not work well (despite that being something I've experienced on countless occasions with keyboards over the decades) or how a butterfly keyboard mechanism wouldn't less prone to faults if it had additional travel? I have seen zero evidence that shows that the butterfly mechanism is an inherently flawed concept and I can easily point to reasons why all the Mac notebooks I've used and owned with that keyboard are the least comfortable and least efficient physical keyboards I've used from Apple in the last 3 decades.
I've been an Apple fan for decades, but I don't worship everything Apple says and does. I judge each change on its own merits. I don't try to defend Apple saying, "Crying about it in forums does nothing. Apple won't go back." like some of you folks do. The good news is that Apple DOES go back. The scissor switch is a switch back! In fact, I just sent them a MBP Feedback message congratulating them on that change, asking that the restore the SD card slot in an updated version. It doesn't matter to me if my feedback is ignored. If they keep coming out with machines that don't fully suit me, I simply won't buy them. But I feel obligated to tell them what I will buy. If most Mac users did that, we'd probably have a heck of a lot more practical hardware functionality than we have now. I love Apple's design aesthetic, but with multiple MacBook product lines, they can easily exercise minimalism on the low end lines and maximize ports on the "Pro." That's how it used to be on the MBP and is what it still should be now. It's not like we don't pay enough for that. Well, at least the keyboard improved. I think it will result in fewer complaints which is good for the customer and for Apple too.
guess what? People didn’t complain, because that was the way it was back then. People were just happy that they could type. People are too blasé these days.
It’s a bit thicker. So they would have to do a complete redesign of the case just for the keyboard. I imagine that they’re waiting for a bit of time to go by before they make that decision. If it proves much more reliable, and a large majority prefer it, they will likely go ahead and do that. But if the results aren’t as good as they hope, and expect, they probably won’t.
but it helps to remember that Apple has extremely sophisticated facilities in their design departments, including full CAD/CAM shops. These can mill a new design on the spot, for testing. There were a couple of articles showing some of that capability, though they covered some machinery because they were either designed from the ground up by Apple, or heavily modified commercial products. So while milling from slabs of metal is more expensive than stamping them out, as most other manufacturers do, it’s very easy, and cheap, to come up with a modded design and machine it out right there.
so keeping that in mind, it’s very likely that Apple has a number of modded cases they’re trying out, just in uh, case.
My (admittedly shallow) living room analysis is that it's a simple matter of ratios. If the total key travel is 0.4mm (what I measured on my MBP) and you have a 0.1-0.2mm particle (100-200 µm if you want to make it sound impressively small,) that can restrict the movement of the key travel by 25-50%. Add to that the fact that 0.4mm is the maximum distance traveled by the end of the 'wings' in the butterfly mechanism, so if the particle is further in it only takes an minute particle to cause a major impact in key travel.
Also, just comparing the mechanisms, it seems like there's more room for debris to more around and escape with the scissors mechanism than with the butterfly. Again - that's just some guy looking at the designs, so take it or leave it.
I doubt litigation would be a problem. Manufacturers come out with new designs that are inferior, in some way, to an older design all the time. In fact, Consumer Reports has said, for the more than 40 years I’ve been reading it, that the test report they do, is just valid for that model, and a later one may not perform as well, or be as reliable.
while couple of cases were already filed some time ago, one was thrown out, and the other is in limbo. Also, most people do like these keyboards, and most have not had a problem. It’s a fairly large minority that doesn’t. It’s not actually overwhelming.
No, you won’t. There are plentry of excellent switch keyboards with the same feel of the old IBM and Mac keyboards, and they cost around $150 to $250. If you haven’t bought one of these already, there’s no way you’re going to pay $500 for the Apple label for one.
So, you chose to write ten times as many words needed to say that you don’t like the butterfly keyboard.
the biggest problem wasn’t whether enough people liked it, though that is a problem, it’s the dirt issue. People I know who have the notebook at home, on a clean desk, tell me they haven’t had problems. But a couple of these who carry it around, have.
the butterfly keyboard was innovation and progress. Don’t forget that. It just didn’t work as well as hoped. It’s called; “Back to the drawing board.”
To be fair, virtually no other company would admit anything, either. Apple has a much more passionate user base, and by virtue of the fact that MacOS users are automatically locked into buying their hardware from a single source, they have a more unified experience, good or bad. If Lenovo had created a crappy keyboard, some people would have noticed but there are 100 other windows laptops around, so it really would never have come to the surface. Apple has 3 different laptops. Prior to the end 16", they all had the butterfly keyboard so issues were much easier to see.