Apple's new 16-inch MacBook Pro is built to blaze through pro workflows

167891012»

Comments

  • Reply 221 of 236
    crowleycrowley Posts: 9,318member
    MplsP said:
    3) What bothers me most is I and several others raised a very valid concern and a very common use for laptops. The response of you and many others was to distort the argument, throw up straw men, make false equivalences and claim people said stuff they never did. 
    I agree wholeheartedly with this.  Some people here seem to think that an appropriate reaction to someone expressing a discontented opinion of Apple is to shout them down, insult their intelligence, and turn everything into an internet argument.  That they're so often disingenuous and attempt to twist words or outright fabricate them is the cherry on the cake.  It's been this way for years, and these people need to get a life.
    philboogie
  • Reply 222 of 236
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 5,995member
    melgross said:
    danvm said:
    melgross said:
    danvm said:
    melgross said:
    MplsP said:
    Reading the thread I get the feeling that some commenters feel personally attacked by the idea that adding a HDMI port in 2019 would add utility to a pro class machine.

    Being of the opinion that a pro machine could be better and more practical if it offered the ability to connect with commonly available technology is not the same as hating on a machine. It is possible to see the improvements and positives of a machine, to like the machine, but at the same time to also want features that would make it even better in the current tech landscape within the context of a common use case.

    Yes, USB-C is the future, but HDMI / Ye Ole USB is still the present. On this point too, commenters have to jump to extremes lamenting that tech that is still in common use is kin to ancient tech; citing VGA (which ironically is usually the other option to connect projectors in fixed installations) and RS232 connections WTF?.

    Perhaps its the word "pro" that gets people all upset, as being "pro" is so on trend. I guess in today's terms the moniker is accurate most everyone uses a computer in some way to make $$$ and so is indeed pro. Power User would likely be a better fit for what used to termed "pro".

    At least in my experience power users tend to have the distinct need to both be on the cutting edge but also the need to easily interface with current commonly available technology especially if they operate in a IT environment. 

    Wanting a smooth transitioning phase between technologies is not the same as hating / being against new tech.

    Of course Apple is not alone in the "fuck em" make them buy a dongle / special cable strategy with some people rightly pointing to the Dell XPS.

    However, in the case of dell the XPS is "flag ship consumer" while there latitude7300 is "business" its close the same specs as the XPS but also with a mix of new and curren tech ports....... for "pros"   I mean ...... power users.

    Apple Insider never fails to entertain. :) flame away...... :)

    ohhh.. there is one last thing:

    Its possible to simultaneously own a Dell, Surface Pro, Mac Book Pro and custom rig. And to enjoy each one for its strength and to lament its weaknesses.  Well at least for power users.
    Well said. There's a certain cohort of people here that take it as a personal (even blasphemous) insult if anyone suggests that an Apple product is not absolutely perfect. Like society, many people here have a complete and utter inability to deal with nuance.
    Well, there are some people here like that, just as there are people here who state that almost everything Apple does is bad or wrong. So they balance out.

    but Apple sells 20 million computers a year. How many actually need some of these ports, or care that they’re gone, and don’t mind using an adapter or two, if required?

    I’d bet that the vast majority either don’t need them, or don’t care that the physical port is different, thereby needing an adapter. Yup, there are thousands of people giving presentations that may need them. I’ll even grant possibly tens of thousands. Still, an infinitesimal percentage. Yup, those people may get ticked. No doubt.
    I think the problem is that Apple didn't made a transition to USB-C for their notebooks.  They just removed USB-A from the MBP without allowing time for users to replace their USB-A devices.  Don't you think that would have been better to have two USB-A and two USB-C port in the MBP 2016 - early 2019 models and move to full USB-C in the late 2019 - 2020 models?  I think users would had appreciated that.  They even didn't made the move to full USB-C in their desktops.  Another example is Lenovo.  Thinkpads have both, USB-A and USB-C ports, without any issues, and in the future I expect all models move to full USB-C.  But as today, there are too many USB-A devices in customers hands.  
    I really don’t agree. People have to get over their hatred of adapters. I’d rather have all modern ports r\than modern and older ports. If there was no backwards portability, I’d agree with you in a heartbeat. But there is. So no, I don’t agree. PCs carry obsolete standards forwards well after nobody cares about them. I think that makes no sense, and holds everybody back. Manufacturers of peripherals will just avoid redesigning equipment if they know old ports will remain around. We’ve seen this over the years. You have to force the issue, and Apple is doing the right thing here. There are other laptops with just USB C ports. Apple isn’t the only one. I’ll bet that in two years fewer computers will have these old ports.
    First of all, PC's are not the only who has USB-A ports.  As today, Apple still includes USB-A in the Mac Mini , iMac / iMac Pro, and the latest Mac Pro.  Even most of their mobile devices include USB-A cables.  

    Second, I'm not against going forward with technology.  But I see no problems with a device like the Thinkpad P1, that has USB-A and USB-C, giving you time to transition your devices at your pace.  At some point everyone is going to move to the latest technology, including USB-C.  But IMO, the decision should be made by users and customers, not Apple.  Even Apple have made the move yet for most of their devices.  Have you consider why?
    The decision is always going to be made by manufacturers. Don’t get into the myth that customers decide these issues, because they don’t. A manufacturer wants to cut costs, and simplify. One does it first, and others follow. Somebody has to do it. Apple is usually first, and others laugh and complain, but then a couple of years later, everyone else has done it too.

    they haven’t done it yet for Desktop machines, because this are far more likely to be used with peripherals, that are older than with notebooks, notebooks also have less space. Don’t be surprised if Apple removes most of those ports in a couple of years.
    The exact same reasons that USB-C was used on laptops is valid for desktops.

    In fact it is feasibly more valid for desktops where a hub converter isn't really taking up much space.

    The reason Apple hasn't moved to outright use of USB-C over other ports on desktops is unknown.

    Tim Cook himself gave a very weak justification when the iMac got refreshed following the late 2016 MBP redesign. So weak as to make little sense. It did however leave all those claiming USB-C had made everything else 'legacy' looking foolish.

    One of the things that may have sped up adoption of USB-C might even have been wholesale switch by Apple to USB-C but that never happened. All those ports are just as 'non-legacy' now as they were then.

    What is clear is that all those people who came out 'all guns blazing' against those of us who lamented wholesale switch to USB-C instead of a gradual transition, claiming those ports were simply 'legacy' were very, very wrong. That is crystal clear at this point.

    They were very likely the same people who said the Mac Mini, iPad Mini and MacBook Air were 'deader than Dodos' only to be wrong again. The same people who said Apple would never switch to intel. That Apple wouldn't release large screen phones (or smaller screen iPads).

    Now, the people who got mocked, labelled and generally ridiculed, turned out to be right. That's some irony there.

    And most of them weren't even arguing against USB-C in the first place. They simply questioned the logic of wholesale switch.

    Apple is not usually first in the context you are giving. People dont usually 'laugh and complain'. 

    Apple is sometimes first and sometimes it isn't.

    There are many times when the industry as a whole is moving in a particular direction and Apple happens to have a product out of the gate first. That doesn't mean the industry is following Apple's lead. Not in the slightest. But that is what we got when Apple moved to 64bit processors. There are roadmaps. Often they are virtually identical save for the time to implementation.

    Apple is praised for pushing USB with the iMac. From a consumer perspective that praise holds little water. It is simply unwarranted but, as in many other cases, the more it gets repeated, the more people accept it.

    Perhaps even Apple believed it and that was the underlying reason for the decision on the late 2016 move. 

    In both cases, wholesale switch was unnecessary from a consumer perspective. It meant headaches. Unnecessary headaches. Often, expensive headaches.

    As for manufacturers, of course the decisions are made by manufacturers but often those decisions are a direct result of consumer opinion! Saying there is a myth that consumers decide these issues is very short sighted. Companies invest huge amounts in market studies precisely to know what the market (consumers in this case, want). Steve Jobs would often lead a product intro with 'this is the number one feature our customers asked for'. The problem was that Apple often forgot to give consumers the number two, three and four features! Why? Because Apple has often thought it knew better than its users! Remember ADC?

    The relationship between products, timing and acceptance by user communities is a mix of issues and consumers very much have a say in things. Sometimes great products fail simply on timing. Sometimes they fail simply on pricing. Sometimes they fail  simply on marketing. They can fail for all manner of reasons but if they get to market in the first place it is definitely because the consumer, in one context or another, has had a say in things.

    Sometimes decisions are a result of government. Look at light bulbs.

    I would even hazard a guess that the iMac hasn't gone 100% USB-C because of what you describe as 'laughing and complaining' but I describe as reasoned criticism.

    So, we have gone from a keyboard that in all probability has design errors, to an old but 'improved' design. Give it a few years and see what Jony Ive has to say about that.

    The design decision to meld the top case, keyboard and battery (a highly volatile piece of the machine) together may also be rued at some point in the future.

    For sure it will be rued by users with out-of-warranty repairs needed on any of those individual pieces and the total cost will definitely make them reconsider such machines in the future. Of that you can be absolutely sure. It's worth remembering that people here were defending Apple's decision no sooner had the machines hit the stores. We were told the batteries would last more than the machines! As if it were an absolute! I prefer to wait and see how things go before jumping into that conclusion. Of course, the people making those claims were probably the same ones (mentioned above) who have already made absolute claims and got it so wrong in the past.




    philboogie
  • Reply 223 of 236
    melgross said:

    elijahg said:
    melgross said:
    elijahg said:

    melgross said:
    s.metcalf said:
    blastdoor said:
    I’m really happy to see Apple paying attention to the needs of professionals!

    (to clarify — by “professionals” I mean people who use their Macs for paid work.)

    Except the SD card slot and optical audio didn’t come back.  The former is still widely used by professional photographers and I’m not sure how much space and cost Apple saved for the latter, but it can’t have been much; it’s something that some people really loved.  Apple cutting the ports seemed more about trying to push the adoption of USB+C, but I don’t think that was necessary because although it got off to a slow start it was the natural progression for USB anyway.

    So for me this new MacBook is a mixed blessing.  I like the bigger screen, slimmer bezels and improved battery and keyboard, but if those two former interfaces/ports returned it would’ve been perfect.
    In the interview the other day that’s been posted here too, Schiller made an excellent argument as to why the SD slot is unlikely to return.

    I'm a photographer as well. Over the past two decades we went from some cameras using “smart cards”, to compact Flash to SD. Which of those slots should Apple have supported, and for how long? The problem is that even with SD, we’ve seen major advancements. Newer SD cards don’t work in older SD slots, and older cards may, or may not work in newer ones. What about CF Express, and others? The fact is that having a slot is only good for a relatively short time. It’s got to accommodate a number of different generations of cards. It needs to have good  performance. There just isn’t any way to do that with a permanent slot, and technology.

    in the olde days, when laptops were 1.5 inches thick, you could have slide in openings where newer adapters could fit, and if the bus was able to, you could get improved performance. But nobody wants to go back to those days. I’m sure that a number of people who carry these around with them all day are even moaning at the small weight increase. Laptops have become much more portable than the 7 pound models we had a number of years ago, and those were a lot lighter than the much heavier ones before that. Nobody want to go back in time that way.

    so for best performance—for those who need the slot, a fast USB C or TB3 to SD card adapter is the ideal way to go. We can get a CF adapter for the greatest speed, and an older model for older, slower cards. They don’t cost all that much. And if you're a pro photographer, not only do you have thousands of dollars of computer equipment, but possibly many thousands in pro photo gear. And keep in mind that the bigger, faster CF Express cards can cost over $200 apiece! So that adapter means nothing in terms of cost. As far as carrying it with you, well, you’ve already got a number of memory cards, chargers, batteries, flashes, and,other cords for your camera equipment in something to carry them. Bringing another adapter isn’t an issue.
    If that SD card slot is useful to most people with a camera, because most cameras have SD, then why not add it? Does it mean you're unable to use that Mac because it has a SD card slot? Does it somehow disadvantage you? It doesn't mean that in special cases like yours where people have a CF card you can't use one of your beloved adapters. It's very rare to find a SD card that doesn't work in a SD slot. 
    Because SD is a rapidly changing technology. Today’s slot likely won’t work with an SD card from next year. A slot from two years ago won’t work with many of today’s SD cards. What’s the point, to have the lowest common denominator?

    guys like you think backwards. So let’s just add every port that still exists because they won’t bother you? What kind of thinking is that? I see no point to having a slot that will be obsolete far sooner than the rest of the computer. And since this is a PROFESSIONAL machine, old SD cards are worthless. You may not know it, but pros buy the card their camera fits, which isn’t an old, slow card. Newer cameras don’t use five year old card types.

    if you want to make the case for this in a consumer level machine, you’ve got a better case for it.
    What? Where did you get that from? My 2012 iMac works perfectly with an SD card I bought two weeks ago, as does my 2015 Macbook and 2019 iMac. They all work just as well with an ancient 256mb card that I've had for 15 years. SD is basically SPI, and SPI has been essentially the same since its invention in the 1980's. My brand new £1700 Sony a6600 works even with that ancient 256mb card - I tried it just for you. So don't make up lies to try and prove a point, it weakens your position substantially.

    I'm not asking for every port. I have Firewire drives somewhere, I don't ask for a port for that. I don't care that Ethernet is missing. I don't care that there's no CD drive. I don't care that there's a nonremovable battery. Plenty of people still use SD. Pretty much every camera uses SD. If it's barely used, why leave it on the latest iMacs? I use the SD card 100x more than I use the camera on my Macbook, but I'm not calling for that to be removed because I don't use it. Guys like you can only see a very small circle around you, where everyone has Macs, everyone has the latest hardware, everyone has the cash to upgrade everything, and where apparently SD has managed to morph into a fragmented mess. In the real world, that's not the case.
    Try a CF express card Mr. genius.
    I think that’ll just be a firmware update, right? I mean, we’re still waiting for Nikon to update the firmware to support it on the Z line. So I assume the current iMac will also get a firmware update, once CF Express cards are more widely available and in use.

    IMHO, an up-to-date SD slot would easily take precedence over an HDMI port if Apple were to choose one. 
    edited November 2019
  • Reply 224 of 236
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,141member
    melgross said:

    elijahg said:
    melgross said:
    elijahg said:

    melgross said:
    s.metcalf said:
    blastdoor said:
    I’m really happy to see Apple paying attention to the needs of professionals!

    (to clarify — by “professionals” I mean people who use their Macs for paid work.)

    Except the SD card slot and optical audio didn’t come back.  The former is still widely used by professional photographers and I’m not sure how much space and cost Apple saved for the latter, but it can’t have been much; it’s something that some people really loved.  Apple cutting the ports seemed more about trying to push the adoption of USB+C, but I don’t think that was necessary because although it got off to a slow start it was the natural progression for USB anyway.

    So for me this new MacBook is a mixed blessing.  I like the bigger screen, slimmer bezels and improved battery and keyboard, but if those two former interfaces/ports returned it would’ve been perfect.
    In the interview the other day that’s been posted here too, Schiller made an excellent argument as to why the SD slot is unlikely to return.

    I'm a photographer as well. Over the past two decades we went from some cameras using “smart cards”, to compact Flash to SD. Which of those slots should Apple have supported, and for how long? The problem is that even with SD, we’ve seen major advancements. Newer SD cards don’t work in older SD slots, and older cards may, or may not work in newer ones. What about CF Express, and others? The fact is that having a slot is only good for a relatively short time. It’s got to accommodate a number of different generations of cards. It needs to have good  performance. There just isn’t any way to do that with a permanent slot, and technology.

    in the olde days, when laptops were 1.5 inches thick, you could have slide in openings where newer adapters could fit, and if the bus was able to, you could get improved performance. But nobody wants to go back to those days. I’m sure that a number of people who carry these around with them all day are even moaning at the small weight increase. Laptops have become much more portable than the 7 pound models we had a number of years ago, and those were a lot lighter than the much heavier ones before that. Nobody want to go back in time that way.

    so for best performance—for those who need the slot, a fast USB C or TB3 to SD card adapter is the ideal way to go. We can get a CF adapter for the greatest speed, and an older model for older, slower cards. They don’t cost all that much. And if you're a pro photographer, not only do you have thousands of dollars of computer equipment, but possibly many thousands in pro photo gear. And keep in mind that the bigger, faster CF Express cards can cost over $200 apiece! So that adapter means nothing in terms of cost. As far as carrying it with you, well, you’ve already got a number of memory cards, chargers, batteries, flashes, and,other cords for your camera equipment in something to carry them. Bringing another adapter isn’t an issue.
    If that SD card slot is useful to most people with a camera, because most cameras have SD, then why not add it? Does it mean you're unable to use that Mac because it has a SD card slot? Does it somehow disadvantage you? It doesn't mean that in special cases like yours where people have a CF card you can't use one of your beloved adapters. It's very rare to find a SD card that doesn't work in a SD slot. 
    Because SD is a rapidly changing technology. Today’s slot likely won’t work with an SD card from next year. A slot from two years ago won’t work with many of today’s SD cards. What’s the point, to have the lowest common denominator?

    guys like you think backwards. So let’s just add every port that still exists because they won’t bother you? What kind of thinking is that? I see no point to having a slot that will be obsolete far sooner than the rest of the computer. And since this is a PROFESSIONAL machine, old SD cards are worthless. You may not know it, but pros buy the card their camera fits, which isn’t an old, slow card. Newer cameras don’t use five year old card types.

    if you want to make the case for this in a consumer level machine, you’ve got a better case for it.
    What? Where did you get that from? My 2012 iMac works perfectly with an SD card I bought two weeks ago, as does my 2015 Macbook and 2019 iMac. They all work just as well with an ancient 256mb card that I've had for 15 years. SD is basically SPI, and SPI has been essentially the same since its invention in the 1980's. My brand new £1700 Sony a6600 works even with that ancient 256mb card - I tried it just for you. So don't make up lies to try and prove a point, it weakens your position substantially.

    I'm not asking for every port. I have Firewire drives somewhere, I don't ask for a port for that. I don't care that Ethernet is missing. I don't care that there's no CD drive. I don't care that there's a nonremovable battery. Plenty of people still use SD. Pretty much every camera uses SD. If it's barely used, why leave it on the latest iMacs? I use the SD card 100x more than I use the camera on my Macbook, but I'm not calling for that to be removed because I don't use it. Guys like you can only see a very small circle around you, where everyone has Macs, everyone has the latest hardware, everyone has the cash to upgrade everything, and where apparently SD has managed to morph into a fragmented mess. In the real world, that's not the case.
    Try a CF express card Mr. genius.
    I think that’ll just be a firmware update, right? I mean, we’re still waiting for Nikon to update the firmware to support it on the Z line. So I assume the current iMac will also get a firmware update, once CF Express cards are more widely available and in use.

    IMHO, an up-to-date SD slot would easily take precedence over an HDMI port if Apple were to choose one. 
    No. It’s an entirely different physical connector. It fixes the unreliable SD connector used from the beginning.
    tenthousandthings
  • Reply 225 of 236
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 23,319member
    melgross said:
    melgross said:

    elijahg said:
    melgross said:
    elijahg said:

    melgross said:
    s.metcalf said:
    blastdoor said:
    I’m really happy to see Apple paying attention to the needs of professionals!

    (to clarify — by “professionals” I mean people who use their Macs for paid work.)

    Except the SD card slot and optical audio didn’t come back.  The former is still widely used by professional photographers and I’m not sure how much space and cost Apple saved for the latter, but it can’t have been much; it’s something that some people really loved.  Apple cutting the ports seemed more about trying to push the adoption of USB+C, but I don’t think that was necessary because although it got off to a slow start it was the natural progression for USB anyway.

    So for me this new MacBook is a mixed blessing.  I like the bigger screen, slimmer bezels and improved battery and keyboard, but if those two former interfaces/ports returned it would’ve been perfect.
    In the interview the other day that’s been posted here too, Schiller made an excellent argument as to why the SD slot is unlikely to return.

    I'm a photographer as well. Over the past two decades we went from some cameras using “smart cards”, to compact Flash to SD. Which of those slots should Apple have supported, and for how long? The problem is that even with SD, we’ve seen major advancements. Newer SD cards don’t work in older SD slots, and older cards may, or may not work in newer ones. What about CF Express, and others? The fact is that having a slot is only good for a relatively short time. It’s got to accommodate a number of different generations of cards. It needs to have good  performance. There just isn’t any way to do that with a permanent slot, and technology.

    in the olde days, when laptops were 1.5 inches thick, you could have slide in openings where newer adapters could fit, and if the bus was able to, you could get improved performance. But nobody wants to go back to those days. I’m sure that a number of people who carry these around with them all day are even moaning at the small weight increase. Laptops have become much more portable than the 7 pound models we had a number of years ago, and those were a lot lighter than the much heavier ones before that. Nobody want to go back in time that way.

    so for best performance—for those who need the slot, a fast USB C or TB3 to SD card adapter is the ideal way to go. We can get a CF adapter for the greatest speed, and an older model for older, slower cards. They don’t cost all that much. And if you're a pro photographer, not only do you have thousands of dollars of computer equipment, but possibly many thousands in pro photo gear. And keep in mind that the bigger, faster CF Express cards can cost over $200 apiece! So that adapter means nothing in terms of cost. As far as carrying it with you, well, you’ve already got a number of memory cards, chargers, batteries, flashes, and,other cords for your camera equipment in something to carry them. Bringing another adapter isn’t an issue.
    If that SD card slot is useful to most people with a camera, because most cameras have SD, then why not add it? Does it mean you're unable to use that Mac because it has a SD card slot? Does it somehow disadvantage you? It doesn't mean that in special cases like yours where people have a CF card you can't use one of your beloved adapters. It's very rare to find a SD card that doesn't work in a SD slot. 
    Because SD is a rapidly changing technology. Today’s slot likely won’t work with an SD card from next year. A slot from two years ago won’t work with many of today’s SD cards. What’s the point, to have the lowest common denominator?

    guys like you think backwards. So let’s just add every port that still exists because they won’t bother you? What kind of thinking is that? I see no point to having a slot that will be obsolete far sooner than the rest of the computer. And since this is a PROFESSIONAL machine, old SD cards are worthless. You may not know it, but pros buy the card their camera fits, which isn’t an old, slow card. Newer cameras don’t use five year old card types.

    if you want to make the case for this in a consumer level machine, you’ve got a better case for it.
    What? Where did you get that from? My 2012 iMac works perfectly with an SD card I bought two weeks ago, as does my 2015 Macbook and 2019 iMac. They all work just as well with an ancient 256mb card that I've had for 15 years. SD is basically SPI, and SPI has been essentially the same since its invention in the 1980's. My brand new £1700 Sony a6600 works even with that ancient 256mb card - I tried it just for you. So don't make up lies to try and prove a point, it weakens your position substantially.

    I'm not asking for every port. I have Firewire drives somewhere, I don't ask for a port for that. I don't care that Ethernet is missing. I don't care that there's no CD drive. I don't care that there's a nonremovable battery. Plenty of people still use SD. Pretty much every camera uses SD. If it's barely used, why leave it on the latest iMacs? I use the SD card 100x more than I use the camera on my Macbook, but I'm not calling for that to be removed because I don't use it. Guys like you can only see a very small circle around you, where everyone has Macs, everyone has the latest hardware, everyone has the cash to upgrade everything, and where apparently SD has managed to morph into a fragmented mess. In the real world, that's not the case.
    Try a CF express card Mr. genius.
    I think that’ll just be a firmware update, right? I mean, we’re still waiting for Nikon to update the firmware to support it on the Z line. So I assume the current iMac will also get a firmware update, once CF Express cards are more widely available and in use.

    IMHO, an up-to-date SD slot would easily take precedence over an HDMI port if Apple were to choose one. 
    No. It’s an entirely different physical connector. It fixes the unreliable SD connector used from the beginning.
    For those curious about what's being discussed:
    https://progradedigital.com/2019/05/07/sd-express-a-comparison-to-cfexpress/
    edited November 2019 tenthousandthingsphilboogie
  • Reply 226 of 236
    crowley said:
    MplsP said:
    3) What bothers me most is I and several others raised a very valid concern and a very common use for laptops. The response of you and many others was to distort the argument, throw up straw men, make false equivalences and claim people said stuff they never did. 
    I agree wholeheartedly with this.  Some people here seem to think that an appropriate reaction to someone expressing a discontented opinion of Apple is to shout them down, insult their intelligence, and turn everything into an internet argument.  That they're so often disingenuous and attempt to twist words or outright fabricate them is the cherry on the cake.  It's been this way for years, and these people need to get a life.
    MplsP is engaging in a bit of revisionist history there — they began with a pointless, dismissive, snide comment about Apple’s use of the “Pro” designation, in agreement with a low-information, hot-take comment in which MBPs were described as “incapable POS.” They can dish it out but they can’t take it. 

    MplsP’s basic argument is that Apple can’t call this a Pro machine because it doesn’t have an HDMI port. It shouldn’t be surprising that such an argument is going to get pushback. 
    Soliphilboogie
  • Reply 227 of 236
    melgross said:
    melgross said:

    elijahg said:
    melgross said:
    elijahg said:

    melgross said:
    s.metcalf said:
    blastdoor said:
    I’m really happy to see Apple paying attention to the needs of professionals!

    (to clarify — by “professionals” I mean people who use their Macs for paid work.)

    Except the SD card slot and optical audio didn’t come back.  The former is still widely used by professional photographers and I’m not sure how much space and cost Apple saved for the latter, but it can’t have been much; it’s something that some people really loved.  Apple cutting the ports seemed more about trying to push the adoption of USB+C, but I don’t think that was necessary because although it got off to a slow start it was the natural progression for USB anyway.

    So for me this new MacBook is a mixed blessing.  I like the bigger screen, slimmer bezels and improved battery and keyboard, but if those two former interfaces/ports returned it would’ve been perfect.
    In the interview the other day that’s been posted here too, Schiller made an excellent argument as to why the SD slot is unlikely to return.

    I'm a photographer as well. Over the past two decades we went from some cameras using “smart cards”, to compact Flash to SD. Which of those slots should Apple have supported, and for how long? The problem is that even with SD, we’ve seen major advancements. Newer SD cards don’t work in older SD slots, and older cards may, or may not work in newer ones. What about CF Express, and others? The fact is that having a slot is only good for a relatively short time. It’s got to accommodate a number of different generations of cards. It needs to have good  performance. There just isn’t any way to do that with a permanent slot, and technology.

    in the olde days, when laptops were 1.5 inches thick, you could have slide in openings where newer adapters could fit, and if the bus was able to, you could get improved performance. But nobody wants to go back to those days. I’m sure that a number of people who carry these around with them all day are even moaning at the small weight increase. Laptops have become much more portable than the 7 pound models we had a number of years ago, and those were a lot lighter than the much heavier ones before that. Nobody want to go back in time that way.

    so for best performance—for those who need the slot, a fast USB C or TB3 to SD card adapter is the ideal way to go. We can get a CF adapter for the greatest speed, and an older model for older, slower cards. They don’t cost all that much. And if you're a pro photographer, not only do you have thousands of dollars of computer equipment, but possibly many thousands in pro photo gear. And keep in mind that the bigger, faster CF Express cards can cost over $200 apiece! So that adapter means nothing in terms of cost. As far as carrying it with you, well, you’ve already got a number of memory cards, chargers, batteries, flashes, and,other cords for your camera equipment in something to carry them. Bringing another adapter isn’t an issue.
    If that SD card slot is useful to most people with a camera, because most cameras have SD, then why not add it? Does it mean you're unable to use that Mac because it has a SD card slot? Does it somehow disadvantage you? It doesn't mean that in special cases like yours where people have a CF card you can't use one of your beloved adapters. It's very rare to find a SD card that doesn't work in a SD slot. 
    Because SD is a rapidly changing technology. Today’s slot likely won’t work with an SD card from next year. A slot from two years ago won’t work with many of today’s SD cards. What’s the point, to have the lowest common denominator?

    guys like you think backwards. So let’s just add every port that still exists because they won’t bother you? What kind of thinking is that? I see no point to having a slot that will be obsolete far sooner than the rest of the computer. And since this is a PROFESSIONAL machine, old SD cards are worthless. You may not know it, but pros buy the card their camera fits, which isn’t an old, slow card. Newer cameras don’t use five year old card types.

    if you want to make the case for this in a consumer level machine, you’ve got a better case for it.
    What? Where did you get that from? My 2012 iMac works perfectly with an SD card I bought two weeks ago, as does my 2015 Macbook and 2019 iMac. They all work just as well with an ancient 256mb card that I've had for 15 years. SD is basically SPI, and SPI has been essentially the same since its invention in the 1980's. My brand new £1700 Sony a6600 works even with that ancient 256mb card - I tried it just for you. So don't make up lies to try and prove a point, it weakens your position substantially.

    I'm not asking for every port. I have Firewire drives somewhere, I don't ask for a port for that. I don't care that Ethernet is missing. I don't care that there's no CD drive. I don't care that there's a nonremovable battery. Plenty of people still use SD. Pretty much every camera uses SD. If it's barely used, why leave it on the latest iMacs? I use the SD card 100x more than I use the camera on my Macbook, but I'm not calling for that to be removed because I don't use it. Guys like you can only see a very small circle around you, where everyone has Macs, everyone has the latest hardware, everyone has the cash to upgrade everything, and where apparently SD has managed to morph into a fragmented mess. In the real world, that's not the case.
    Try a CF express card Mr. genius.
    I think that’ll just be a firmware update, right? I mean, we’re still waiting for Nikon to update the firmware to support it on the Z line. So I assume the current iMac will also get a firmware update, once CF Express cards are more widely available and in use.

    IMHO, an up-to-date SD slot would easily take precedence over an HDMI port if Apple were to choose one. 
    No. It’s an entirely different physical connector. It fixes the unreliable SD connector used from the beginning.
    Oh, I see, thanks! My camera/lenses work well for my purposes, but I do try to keep up with what’s new.
    edited November 2019
  • Reply 228 of 236
    crowleycrowley Posts: 9,318member
    crowley said:
    MplsP said:
    3) What bothers me most is I and several others raised a very valid concern and a very common use for laptops. The response of you and many others was to distort the argument, throw up straw men, make false equivalences and claim people said stuff they never did. 
    I agree wholeheartedly with this.  Some people here seem to think that an appropriate reaction to someone expressing a discontented opinion of Apple is to shout them down, insult their intelligence, and turn everything into an internet argument.  That they're so often disingenuous and attempt to twist words or outright fabricate them is the cherry on the cake.  It's been this way for years, and these people need to get a life.
    MplsP is engaging in a bit of revisionist history there — they began with a pointless, dismissive, snide comment about Apple’s use of the “Pro” designation, in agreement with a low-information, hot-take comment in which MBPs were described as “incapable POS.” They can dish it out but they can’t take it. 

    MplsP’s basic argument is that Apple can’t call this a Pro machine because it doesn’t have an HDMI port. It shouldn’t be surprising that such an argument is going to get pushback. 
    If you say so, I haven't been taking names or keeping up with every thread of the discussion.  Point still stands though, pushback doesn't need to come with a side of dickhead.
    MplsPphilboogie
  • Reply 229 of 236
    k2kwk2kw Posts: 2,057member
    melgross said:
    danvm said:
    melgross said:
    MplsP said:
    Reading the thread I get the feeling that some commenters feel personally attacked by the idea that adding a HDMI port in 2019 would add utility to a pro class machine.

    Being of the opinion that a pro machine could be better and more practical if it offered the ability to connect with commonly available technology is not the same as hating on a machine. It is possible to see the improvements and positives of a machine, to like the machine, but at the same time to also want features that would make it even better in the current tech landscape within the context of a common use case.

    Yes, USB-C is the future, but HDMI / Ye Ole USB is still the present. On this point too, commenters have to jump to extremes lamenting that tech that is still in common use is kin to ancient tech; citing VGA (which ironically is usually the other option to connect projectors in fixed installations) and RS232 connections WTF?.

    Perhaps its the word "pro" that gets people all upset, as being "pro" is so on trend. I guess in today's terms the moniker is accurate most everyone uses a computer in some way to make $$$ and so is indeed pro. Power User would likely be a better fit for what used to termed "pro".

    At least in my experience power users tend to have the distinct need to both be on the cutting edge but also the need to easily interface with current commonly available technology especially if they operate in a IT environment. 

    Wanting a smooth transitioning phase between technologies is not the same as hating / being against new tech.

    Of course Apple is not alone in the "fuck em" make them buy a dongle / special cable strategy with some people rightly pointing to the Dell XPS.

    However, in the case of dell the XPS is "flag ship consumer" while there latitude7300 is "business" its close the same specs as the XPS but also with a mix of new and curren tech ports....... for "pros"   I mean ...... power users.

    Apple Insider never fails to entertain. :) flame away...... :)

    ohhh.. there is one last thing:

    Its possible to simultaneously own a Dell, Surface Pro, Mac Book Pro and custom rig. And to enjoy each one for its strength and to lament its weaknesses.  Well at least for power users.
    Well said. There's a certain cohort of people here that take it as a personal (even blasphemous) insult if anyone suggests that an Apple product is not absolutely perfect. Like society, many people here have a complete and utter inability to deal with nuance.
    Well, there are some people here like that, just as there are people here who state that almost everything Apple does is bad or wrong. So they balance out.

    but Apple sells 20 million computers a year. How many actually need some of these ports, or care that they’re gone, and don’t mind using an adapter or two, if required?

    I’d bet that the vast majority either don’t need them, or don’t care that the physical port is different, thereby needing an adapter. Yup, there are thousands of people giving presentations that may need them. I’ll even grant possibly tens of thousands. Still, an infinitesimal percentage. Yup, those people may get ticked. No doubt.
    I think the problem is that Apple didn't made a transition to USB-C for their notebooks.  They just removed USB-A from the MBP without allowing time for users to replace their USB-A devices.  Don't you think that would have been better to have two USB-A and two USB-C port in the MBP 2016 - early 2019 models and move to full USB-C in the late 2019 - 2020 models?  I think users would had appreciated that.  They even didn't made the move to full USB-C in their desktops.  Another example is Lenovo.  Thinkpads have both, USB-A and USB-C ports, without any issues, and in the future I expect all models move to full USB-C.  But as today, there are too many USB-A devices in customers hands.  
    I really don’t agree. People have to get over their hatred of adapters. I’d rather have all modern ports r\than modern and older ports. If there was no backwards portability, I’d agree with you in a heartbeat. But there is. So no, I don’t agree. PCs carry obsolete standards forwards well after nobody cares about them. I think that makes no sense, and holds everybody back. Manufacturers of peripherals will just avoid redesigning equipment if they know old ports will remain around. We’ve seen this over the years. You have to force the issue, and Apple is doing the right thing here. There are other laptops with just USB C ports. Apple isn’t the only one. I’ll bet that in two years fewer computers will have these old ports.
    I think it would have been better to include the SD card port on the MBP and provide an adapters for TypeA to Type C,  for Type C to HDMI and mini PD.  Apple created a situation where people just bought some what expensive hubs to replace all the missing ports.   But that doesn't get people off of Type A which I still see all over the place.   If your choice is buying one somewhat expensive hub or many new cables which may be a little cheaper individually but more expensive in total  You buy a hub.

    But the fact that they brought back the scissors keyboard is a very good sign.    I have hope that they may bring back one or two of the other ports when the next MBP with 10th generation 10 nm Intel Processors are finally released (hopefully) some time next year.    Going from 14 nm to 10 nm should allow them to shrink the battery and hopefully give them room to add a port or two back in.    That is the laptop I am waiting for as I also expect it to have LPDDR4.
  • Reply 230 of 236
    crowley said:
    cropr said:
    cropr said:

    cropr said:
    No listing of all the ports and connectors? THAT is what separates a pro computer from the incapable POS’ we’ve been getting called MacBook Pro.

    UPDATE: Four Thunderbolt 3 ports. That’s all. Good lord... from their web site:

    ” MacBook Pro is equipped with four ports, so you can do all of that from either side. Existing devices are easily connected with a cable or adapter. And Thunderbolt 3 is reversible, so no matter how you plug in, it’s always right side up.”

    It’ll still be a massive shitpile of adapters on a regular desk. Hate this mentality of theirs. Is it really asking for too much to expect some actual USB, Ethernet or other kinds of ports to REDUCE the number of adapters?
    It has USB. USB-C is the latest iteration of USB. You don’t need adapters, you just need the proper cables for your devices. Do you understand that? Cables. Plenty of A-to-C cables. 

    Are you honestly asking for an ethernet port!?
    I give at lot of customer presentations and they all, without exception, give me a HDMI cable for the big screen in the meeting room.   So it is not the proper cable that is the issue but the proper port on my laptop.     And don't make me "educate" my customers. 
    Sounds like you have a special use case. Not typical for the typical pro customer, which Apple’s Craig has said is software development. So no harm in asking you to use an adapter to support your special use case of “presentations where I can’t use my own cable”. Good thing they exist, right? But still no reason to add single-use extra ports to every single customer for your specific use case. 
    There is nothing special about the use case of all my customers; it is the most common use case in a corporate environment.    Can I use an dongle? Of course,  but it is an unnecessary annoyance.

    For big screen in meeting rooms, Thunderbolt does not offer any technically advantage wrt HDMI.  They both can carry a 4K digital video signal at 60 Hz.

    What is a a special use case on the other hand, is people needing 4 Thunderbolt connections.   So a machine with 3 Thunderbold connections and 1 HDMI interface is much more practical
    Again, MOST PEOPLE do not do presentations or ever hook their MBP up to an HDMI cable, despite what your personal anecdotal experience is with regard to "all your customers". Do you run a Presentations 'R' Us? And again, do "all your customers" own a 2012-2015 Retina MacBook Pro? Because that's the only model of MacBook that's EVER had HDMI. None of them own an Air? Older MBP? The long-lived non-Retina MBP that sold until 2015? The 12" MacBook? I don't buy it.

    Losing a TB3 port to HDMI would be a signifiant downgrade for many users, including myself. I certainly don't need or have ever needed an HDMI port, however I have used up all four of my TB3 ports on many occasion over the last year.
    A corporate office environment is full of meeting rooms with a big screen, and these big screens are used all day. For one reason or another, HDMI is the preferred method to connect to that meeting room screen. Even for huge Apple clients: 3 weeks ago I made a presentation in an IBM building and guess what: 3 of my IBM guests has a Lenovo PC without dongles and 2 had a Macbook Pro with a USB-C to HDMI dongle.  So don't deny the fact that there are millions and millions of meeting rooms where HDMI is the only way to connect to the meeting room screen,whether we like it or not.   And this is not going change very quickly because the suppliers of these big screens like Samsung, Philips and Sony prefer to include HDMI connectors in their screens.

    Assuming that the most people do not present, because it does not fit your usage pattern, is very shortsighted
    Millions and millions of conference rooms? Well, since we're just making up stuff here, I'll add that there are trillions of people who will never give any sort of presentation requiring HDMI ever. How do you like that?


    crowley said:
    cropr said:

    cropr said:
    No listing of all the ports and connectors? THAT is what separates a pro computer from the incapable POS’ we’ve been getting called MacBook Pro.

    UPDATE: Four Thunderbolt 3 ports. That’s all. Good lord... from their web site:

    ” MacBook Pro is equipped with four ports, so you can do all of that from either side. Existing devices are easily connected with a cable or adapter. And Thunderbolt 3 is reversible, so no matter how you plug in, it’s always right side up.”

    It’ll still be a massive shitpile of adapters on a regular desk. Hate this mentality of theirs. Is it really asking for too much to expect some actual USB, Ethernet or other kinds of ports to REDUCE the number of adapters?
    It has USB. USB-C is the latest iteration of USB. You don’t need adapters, you just need the proper cables for your devices. Do you understand that? Cables. Plenty of A-to-C cables. 

    Are you honestly asking for an ethernet port!?
    I give at lot of customer presentations and they all, without exception, give me a HDMI cable for the big screen in the meeting room.   So it is not the proper cable that is the issue but the proper port on my laptop.     And don't make me "educate" my customers. 
    Sounds like you have a special use case. Not typical for the typical pro customer, which Apple’s Craig has said is software development. So no harm in asking you to use an adapter to support your special use case of “presentations where I can’t use my own cable”. Good thing they exist, right? But still no reason to add single-use extra ports to every single customer for your specific use case. 
    There is nothing special about the use case of all my customers; it is the most common use case in a corporate environment.    Can I use an dongle? Of course,  but it is an unnecessary annoyance.

    For big screen in meeting rooms, Thunderbolt does not offer any technically advantage wrt HDMI.  They both can carry a 4K digital video signal at 60 Hz.

    What is a a special use case on the other hand, is people needing 4 Thunderbolt connections.   So a machine with 3 Thunderbold connections and 1 HDMI interface is much more practical
    Again, MOST PEOPLE do not do presentations or ever hook their MBP up to an HDMI cable, despite what your personal anecdotal experience is with regard to "all your customers". Do you run a Presentations 'R' Us? And again, do "all your customers" own a 2012-2015 Retina MacBook Pro? Because that's the only model of MacBook that's EVER had HDMI. None of them own an Air? Older MBP? The long-lived non-Retina MBP that sold until 2015? The 12" MacBook? I don't buy it.

    Losing a TB3 port to HDMI would be a signifiant downgrade for many users, including myself. I certainly don't need or have ever needed an HDMI port, however I have used up all four of my TB3 ports on many occasion over the last year.
    Rather liberal use of "most" and "many" to suit your purposes there.  I doubt you have any more insight into what "most" users need in terms of ports than anyone else.

    Myself, I like that the MacBooks have Thunderbolt, it's very useful.  But I've never needed to have anything plugged into more than two of them, and quite often one of them is hooked up to an adaptor for HDMI and/or USB-A (the latter to charge my Apply Watch becuase that's the cable it came with when I bought it just a little while ago).  Given the sluggish uptake of USB-C, I doubt that many people have need of four of identical ports,.  So my preferred scenario would be a MBP with two Thunderbolt ports, one or two USB-A ports and an HDMI (and MagSafe power if it's a wishlist, but I'm trying to be realistic).    That seems to cover most bases.

    The only cause for pause I'd have is that there don't seem to be (m)any USB-C hubs that split one to many USB-C ports.  So if USB-C does take off, then only having two ports could end up being limiting.  But given the aforementioned slow upotake, that's not a great concern right now.

    If the vast majority of users desperately needed HDMI, Apple would've likely included it. Same with SD card slots. Apple knows that most people don't. I find it bizarre that anyone here thinks that the *majority* of users need HDMI ports on their MacBook.

    I don't know what you mean about sluggish uptake. If you haven't rid yourself of legacy cables and devices, that's on you — but it's easily solved. I've gotten rid of most of my peripherals with outdated and slower ports. Any misc hardware things I have that didn't come with USB-C, I've replaced the cables for so they do now. The one or two things I have with permanent USB-A cords have an adapter. My monitor's adapter from Dual-DVI to mDP now has a mDP to USB-C adapter that lives on it. Right now I have power in one, my 30" ACD in another, an external 10Gbps USB 3.1 gen2 drive full of video footage I'm working with, and a little jog wheel for video scrubbing with an adapter in the fourth. 
    HDMI is the standard for connecting a device to a monitor or television.  There are alternatives available, but HDMI is the most ubiquitous standard out there, and it's modern and in active development.  Apple include it on other current devices that they sell.  Maybe the majority don't need it, but the idea that the majority need 4 thunderbolt ports is equally bizarre.

    Not sure how you can justify the passive agressive "thats on you" regarding replacing cables and devices, when you yourself are using old devices and a truckload of adaptors, exactly the same as I am.  Like most people I don't readily appreciate having to pay to replace things that work fine just because Apple have decided that a Thunderbolt only future is easiest on them.
    It's not "the" standard for monitors, there are a ton that use other interfaces. TV's, yes. Most people don't connect their laptop to a TV, or a projector for that matter, which was my point.

    Why are four TB3 ports bizarre? Two could easily be driving a couple displays, leaving another for a cord going to your camera or card reader, and another for an external drive. That's assuming you're getting power from one of those monitors, which may not be the case, so one for power. Many use cases would need more ports, but that's where TB3 is awesome — get a dock or expansion hub that gives you like 5 different kinds of ports/slots on a single one of those TB3's and you're set. 

    I don't have a "truckload" of adapters, I have one $13 adapter attached to the other adapter on my 30" ACDs that permanently lives there along with the dual-DVI to mDP adapter (which actually did cost $100!). I have a couple USB-A adapters (about $3 each) around for the odd time like that instance above where I dug out an old Kensington jog wheel thingy for the video project I was working on, to see if I'd want to buy a newer device at some point (I decided I don't, and am going to sell/recycle this thing, but if I I did, I'd just stick an adapter on the end of its fixed cable like I did). I generally do not use them, but I keep one on my keychain for instances where I randomly need it due to someone else's device. Otherwise I'm replacing any remaining cables I need to, like for my audio interface I just got which has a USB-B port, so I'll get a USB-B to -C cable for it for a few bucks. Or, I may get a little dock to plug in the audio stuff into USB-A ports if I decide that'd work better, I haven't decided yet as I'm reconfiguring my audio gear. Either way, It's not a big deal. 

    I've already piled up all my Firewire gear to get rid of, and good riddance. It served its purpose at the time, but sometimes it's just time to move on. For those that need more time, there's adapters, and it's again, not that big of a deal when you actually just address whatever your needs are and get it done. I say "it's on you" because you CAN easily find solutions for your use cases instead of making them out to be bigger problems than they are.

    edited November 2019 philboogie
  • Reply 231 of 236
    MplsP said:

    One other thing - I tried playing an iTunes movie from my laptop to an Apple TV and it wouldn't let me because of copy protections. I had to connect my laptop directly to the TV - via HDMI.
    Uh... why wouldn't you just play it directly from your ATV?
  • Reply 232 of 236
    crowley said:
    I'm using all four of my TB3 ports right now.

    What for, out of interest?  Are any of those using an adaptor or hub?  I'd like to know the use case.
    1) Power
    2) My 30" ACD by way of a USB-C to mDP adapter attached to my previous dual-DVI to mDP adapter.
    3) External USB 3.1gen2 enclosure with SSD inside full of video footage
    4) Dug out an old Kensington jogwheel thingy with built-in USB-A cord. This thing is ancient, dug it out of the trash at an old office years ago. Wanted to try it out while deep in video editing to see if I wanted to buy a new video editing device with jogwheel etc (turns out I just tend to use the trackpad). That I put a USB-C to A adapter on it to try it out — the horror.

    The other day I was using all four in some other configuration (maybe two hard drives at the time?) and wanted to plug my iPad Pro into one to see if Apple updated Configurator 2 yet for iOS 13, but didn't have a port free. ¯\(°_o)/¯ 
    philboogie
  • Reply 233 of 236
    MplsPMplsP Posts: 3,489member
    crowley said:
    MplsP said:
    3) What bothers me most is I and several others raised a very valid concern and a very common use for laptops. The response of you and many others was to distort the argument, throw up straw men, make false equivalences and claim people said stuff they never did. 
    I agree wholeheartedly with this.  Some people here seem to think that an appropriate reaction to someone expressing a discontented opinion of Apple is to shout them down, insult their intelligence, and turn everything into an internet argument.  That they're so often disingenuous and attempt to twist words or outright fabricate them is the cherry on the cake.  It's been this way for years, and these people need to get a life.
    MplsP is engaging in a bit of revisionist history there — they began with a pointless, dismissive, snide comment about Apple’s use of the “Pro” designation, in agreement with a low-information, hot-take comment in which MBPs were described as “incapable POS.” They can dish it out but they can’t take it. 

    MplsP’s basic argument is that Apple can’t call this a Pro machine because it doesn’t have an HDMI port. It shouldn’t be surprising that such an argument is going to get pushback. 
    Hardly, unless you took my initial tongue-in-cheek comment at the very beginning of this thread that really wasn't part of the discussion and I have never described MBPs as "incapable POS." (I own a 2017 MBP, and for the record, I do not consider it an incapable POS)

    My argument was never that Apple needed to include an HDMI port to call it pro. It was that an HDMI port would be incredibly useful to a large number of users, and essentially anyone who uses their laptop to give a presentation. 

    fastasleep said:

    It's not "the" standard for monitors, there are a ton that use other interfaces. TV's, yes. Most people don't connect their laptop to a TV, or a projector for that matter, which was my point.

    Yes there are tons of video interfaces, but for anything except desktop monitor use, it absolutely is the standard. I challenge you to find a video projector without it. As for the number of people who would use it, it depends on which circles you run in, but I would be willing to bet that far more people use HDMI connections than use 4 TB3 ports. If you work for a video production firm, you likely have more people running dual 4k monitors than giving presentations. Of all the people I know that have laptops, only one of them regularly hooks up to an external monitor.

    One thing I will say - the 15" and now 16" MBPs are definitely overpowered for many people. I could probably do fine with a MBA, except I need a larger display. If Apple would make a cheaper, lower-speced 16" MacBook I would happily buy it and I'm pretty sure there are a lot of other people who would, too. Unfortunately, Apple doesn't give us that choice. 
    edited November 2019
  • Reply 234 of 236
    k2kw said:
    melgross said:
    danvm said:
    melgross said:
    MplsP said:
    Reading the thread I get the feeling that some commenters feel personally attacked by the idea that adding a HDMI port in 2019 would add utility to a pro class machine.

    Being of the opinion that a pro machine could be better and more practical if it offered the ability to connect with commonly available technology is not the same as hating on a machine. It is possible to see the improvements and positives of a machine, to like the machine, but at the same time to also want features that would make it even better in the current tech landscape within the context of a common use case.

    Yes, USB-C is the future, but HDMI / Ye Ole USB is still the present. On this point too, commenters have to jump to extremes lamenting that tech that is still in common use is kin to ancient tech; citing VGA (which ironically is usually the other option to connect projectors in fixed installations) and RS232 connections WTF?.

    Perhaps its the word "pro" that gets people all upset, as being "pro" is so on trend. I guess in today's terms the moniker is accurate most everyone uses a computer in some way to make $$$ and so is indeed pro. Power User would likely be a better fit for what used to termed "pro".

    At least in my experience power users tend to have the distinct need to both be on the cutting edge but also the need to easily interface with current commonly available technology especially if they operate in a IT environment. 

    Wanting a smooth transitioning phase between technologies is not the same as hating / being against new tech.

    Of course Apple is not alone in the "fuck em" make them buy a dongle / special cable strategy with some people rightly pointing to the Dell XPS.

    However, in the case of dell the XPS is "flag ship consumer" while there latitude7300 is "business" its close the same specs as the XPS but also with a mix of new and curren tech ports....... for "pros"   I mean ...... power users.

    Apple Insider never fails to entertain. :) flame away...... :)

    ohhh.. there is one last thing:

    Its possible to simultaneously own a Dell, Surface Pro, Mac Book Pro and custom rig. And to enjoy each one for its strength and to lament its weaknesses.  Well at least for power users.
    Well said. There's a certain cohort of people here that take it as a personal (even blasphemous) insult if anyone suggests that an Apple product is not absolutely perfect. Like society, many people here have a complete and utter inability to deal with nuance.
    Well, there are some people here like that, just as there are people here who state that almost everything Apple does is bad or wrong. So they balance out.

    but Apple sells 20 million computers a year. How many actually need some of these ports, or care that they’re gone, and don’t mind using an adapter or two, if required?

    I’d bet that the vast majority either don’t need them, or don’t care that the physical port is different, thereby needing an adapter. Yup, there are thousands of people giving presentations that may need them. I’ll even grant possibly tens of thousands. Still, an infinitesimal percentage. Yup, those people may get ticked. No doubt.
    I think the problem is that Apple didn't made a transition to USB-C for their notebooks.  They just removed USB-A from the MBP without allowing time for users to replace their USB-A devices.  Don't you think that would have been better to have two USB-A and two USB-C port in the MBP 2016 - early 2019 models and move to full USB-C in the late 2019 - 2020 models?  I think users would had appreciated that.  They even didn't made the move to full USB-C in their desktops.  Another example is Lenovo.  Thinkpads have both, USB-A and USB-C ports, without any issues, and in the future I expect all models move to full USB-C.  But as today, there are too many USB-A devices in customers hands.  
    I really don’t agree. People have to get over their hatred of adapters. I’d rather have all modern ports r\than modern and older ports. If there was no backwards portability, I’d agree with you in a heartbeat. But there is. So no, I don’t agree. PCs carry obsolete standards forwards well after nobody cares about them. I think that makes no sense, and holds everybody back. Manufacturers of peripherals will just avoid redesigning equipment if they know old ports will remain around. We’ve seen this over the years. You have to force the issue, and Apple is doing the right thing here. There are other laptops with just USB C ports. Apple isn’t the only one. I’ll bet that in two years fewer computers will have these old ports.
    I think it would have been better to include the SD card port on the MBP and provide an adapters for TypeA to Type C,  for Type C to HDMI and mini PD.  Apple created a situation where people just bought some what expensive hubs to replace all the missing ports.   But that doesn't get people off of Type A which I still see all over the place.   If your choice is buying one somewhat expensive hub or many new cables which may be a little cheaper individually but more expensive in total  You buy a hub.

    But the fact that they brought back the scissors keyboard is a very good sign.    I have hope that they may bring back one or two of the other ports when the next MBP with 10th generation 10 nm Intel Processors are finally released (hopefully) some time next year.    Going from 14 nm to 10 nm should allow them to shrink the battery and hopefully give them room to add a port or two back in.    That is the laptop I am waiting for as I also expect it to have LPDDR4.
    "Expensive hub" — like this? Gigabit Ethernet, a USB C charging port, a [email protected] HDMI port, a SD/TF card reader, 3.5mm Audio jack and a VGA port and 2 USB A Ports for.... wait for it... $30.
    https://www.amazon.com/Adapter-Charging-Ethernet-Compatible-Thunderbolt/dp/B07TVSLDND/

    You can get smaller ones with a different combination of a couple ports you need for half that or less. Most common single adapters are like ~$13-15 for video and ~$3 for USB. Expensive, my ass.
    philboogie
  • Reply 235 of 236
    avon b7 said:
    The exact same reasons that USB-C was used on laptops is valid for desktops.

    In fact it is feasibly more valid for desktops where a hub converter isn't really taking up much space.

    The reason Apple hasn't moved to outright use of USB-C over other ports on desktops is unknown.

    Tim Cook himself gave a very weak justification when the iMac got refreshed following the late 2016 MBP redesign. So weak as to make little sense. It did however leave all those claiming USB-C had made everything else 'legacy' looking foolish.

    One of the things that may have sped up adoption of USB-C might even have been wholesale switch by Apple to USB-C but that never happened. All those ports are just as 'non-legacy' now as they were then.

    What is clear is that all those people who came out 'all guns blazing' against those of us who lamented wholesale switch to USB-C instead of a gradual transition, claiming those ports were simply 'legacy' were very, very wrong. That is crystal clear at this point.

    They were very likely the same people who said the Mac Mini, iPad Mini and MacBook Air were 'deader than Dodos' only to be wrong again. The same people who said Apple would never switch to intel. That Apple wouldn't release large screen phones (or smaller screen iPads).

    Now, the people who got mocked, labelled and generally ridiculed, turned out to be right. That's some irony there.

    And most of them weren't even arguing against USB-C in the first place. They simply questioned the logic of wholesale switch.

    Apple is not usually first in the context you are giving. People dont usually 'laugh and complain'. 

    Apple is sometimes first and sometimes it isn't.

    There are many times when the industry as a whole is moving in a particular direction and Apple happens to have a product out of the gate first. That doesn't mean the industry is following Apple's lead. Not in the slightest. But that is what we got when Apple moved to 64bit processors. There are roadmaps. Often they are virtually identical save for the time to implementation.

    Apple is praised for pushing USB with the iMac. From a consumer perspective that praise holds little water. It is simply unwarranted but, as in many other cases, the more it gets repeated, the more people accept it.

    Perhaps even Apple believed it and that was the underlying reason for the decision on the late 2016 move. 

    In both cases, wholesale switch was unnecessary from a consumer perspective. It meant headaches. Unnecessary headaches. Often, expensive headaches.

    As for manufacturers, of course the decisions are made by manufacturers but often those decisions are a direct result of consumer opinion! Saying there is a myth that consumers decide these issues is very short sighted. Companies invest huge amounts in market studies precisely to know what the market (consumers in this case, want). Steve Jobs would often lead a product intro with 'this is the number one feature our customers asked for'. The problem was that Apple often forgot to give consumers the number two, three and four features! Why? Because Apple has often thought it knew better than its users! Remember ADC?

    The relationship between products, timing and acceptance by user communities is a mix of issues and consumers very much have a say in things. Sometimes great products fail simply on timing. Sometimes they fail simply on pricing. Sometimes they fail  simply on marketing. They can fail for all manner of reasons but if they get to market in the first place it is definitely because the consumer, in one context or another, has had a say in things.

    Sometimes decisions are a result of government. Look at light bulbs.

    I would even hazard a guess that the iMac hasn't gone 100% USB-C because of what you describe as 'laughing and complaining' but I describe as reasoned criticism.

    So, we have gone from a keyboard that in all probability has design errors, to an old but 'improved' design. Give it a few years and see what Jony Ive has to say about that.

    The design decision to meld the top case, keyboard and battery (a highly volatile piece of the machine) together may also be rued at some point in the future.

    For sure it will be rued by users with out-of-warranty repairs needed on any of those individual pieces and the total cost will definitely make them reconsider such machines in the future. Of that you can be absolutely sure. It's worth remembering that people here were defending Apple's decision no sooner had the machines hit the stores. We were told the batteries would last more than the machines! As if it were an absolute! I prefer to wait and see how things go before jumping into that conclusion. Of course, the people making those claims were probably the same ones (mentioned above) who have already made absolute claims and got it so wrong in the past.




    Quoted the whole post because I fully agree.

    As for the ports, USB-C now...we'll likely get USB-D or whatever at some point. There will always be transition periods, adapters connecting old with new. That's just tech evolution, and can't simply disappear. Nor should it; if we want to never deal with adapters we'd be stuck with old tech at some point.
  • Reply 236 of 236

    gatorguy said:
    Excellent article! Great website; thanks for the link.

Sign In or Register to comment.