16-inch MacBook Pro review: The keyboard is probably enough to convince those waiting

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 62
    Solid machine.

    My biggest complaint is marketing... the “MacBook Pro Magic Keyboard”.  

    Does it go with my MAGIC socks or MAGIC shoes?  What about my MAGIC tie?

    Leave “magical” or “magic” to describe new products, and don’t put the word in the product name.

    When Jobs introduced a 
    “Truly Magical and Revolutionary New Product” he was really excited about the reveal... we’re talking about a keyboard.




    tyler82
  • Reply 22 of 62
    wood1208wood1208 Posts: 2,774member
    urahara said:
    tyler82 said:
    Am I the only one that likes the butterfly keyboard? I liked it from the first moment I typed on it. I've never been a keyboard snob though. I like the chiclet keys in the apple wireless keyboard, and the super heavy clicky keys of mechanical keyboards. I loved the old ADB Extended Keyboard/ Keyboard II. Guess there's never really a keyboard I've never liked on a Mac.
    I love my MacBook Pro 2018 butterfly keyboard. Especially the smaller travel distance!
    Millions of users bought 2016-2019 MAC laptop models; they have no issue with keyboard and many like it. Recently bought 15" and didn't see issue. The problem is minority(probably heavy users of keyboard) who complain lot and loud is heard the most. I tried 16" magic keyboard and has bit better typing experience than butterfly.because most of us grew up want feeling key travel. and 16" provides best of both(scissor,butterfly)
    edited November 2019 tyler82
  • Reply 23 of 62
    zoetmbzoetmb Posts: 2,628member
    wood1208 said:
    urahara said:
    tyler82 said:
    Am I the only one that likes the butterfly keyboard? I liked it from the first moment I typed on it. I've never been a keyboard snob though. I like the chiclet keys in the apple wireless keyboard, and the super heavy clicky keys of mechanical keyboards. I loved the old ADB Extended Keyboard/ Keyboard II. Guess there's never really a keyboard I've never liked on a Mac.
    I love my MacBook Pro 2018 butterfly keyboard. Especially the smaller travel distance!
    Millions of users bought 2016-2019 MAC laptop models; they have no issue with keyboard and many like it. Recently bought 15" and didn't see issue. The problem is minority(probably heavy users of keyboard) who complain lot and loud is heard the most. I tried 16" magic keyboard and has bit better typing experience than butterfly.because most of us grew up want feeling key travel. and 16" provides best of both(scissor,butterfly)
    My daughter and son-in-law bought MBP's in the last year and the keyboards are already problematic and have to go back to Apple for replacement.  Keys either don't work or repeat.   I have a late-2016 MBP and while the keyboard itself has worked fine, the center of the key has worn away on the A, S, L and N keys revealing the light below.    (And my machine also needs a new battery, for which one Apple store has quoted $450, which is making me really angry).  

    BigDanntyler82
  • Reply 24 of 62
    13"! Thirteen inch! THIRTEEN INCH!

    Or maybe it will be 14"? I know that I have not been a fan of the minimal travel butterfly keyboard. My preferred keyboard is the "Magic" keyboard, and I have several wired Mac keyboards for home and work use. 

    My 2016 13" MBP has had issues with the slash key, such that I regularly get double characters. The arrow keys are a bit off, too. I would hope to see an update in the smaller laptop as well.
  • Reply 25 of 62
    thttht Posts: 4,492member
    tyler82 said:
    Am I the only one that likes the butterfly keyboard? I liked it from the first moment I typed on it. I've never been a keyboard snob though. I like the chiclet keys in the apple wireless keyboard, and the super heavy clicky keys of mechanical keyboards. I loved the old ADB Extended Keyboard/ Keyboard II. Guess there's never really a keyboard I've never liked on a Mac.
    You are definitely not the only one. I like the butterfly keys much much better than the scissors switch keys in the MBP16 and prior Apple keyboards, and I like the Touchbar over the function row.

    I definitely prefer a swift buckling action, ie, clicky clacky keys, over the more gradual spring actuation. This includes full sized keyboards with 4 to 5 mm of travel. Definitely prefer the mechanics of a light stroke until the end, there is a rise in force and a swift buckling and stop to indicate the key has been actuated. Razor has a high end external keyboard that does this. The butterfly keyboard is great at this.

    Every time you hear someone complain about it, you have to mentally think they are talking about a pair of gloves, an article of clothing, as they just giving their subjective opinion of how it fits, not some objective fact.
  • Reply 26 of 62
    Solid machine.

    My biggest complaint is marketing... the “MacBook Pro Magic Keyboard”.  

    Does it go with my MAGIC socks or MAGIC shoes?  What about my MAGIC tie?

    Leave “magical” or “magic” to describe new products, and don’t put the word in the product name.

    When Jobs introduced a “Truly Magical and Revolutionary New Product” he was really excited about the reveal... we’re talking about a keyboard.
    Pretty sure it's a direct reference to the new stand-alone Magic Keyboard, implying that the MBP's keyboard is the same as it or using the same mechanisms. 
  • Reply 27 of 62
    MplsPMplsP Posts: 3,679member
    Solid machine.

    My biggest complaint is marketing... the “MacBook Pro Magic Keyboard”.  

    Does it go with my MAGIC socks or MAGIC shoes?  What about my MAGIC tie?

    Leave “magical” or “magic” to describe new products, and don’t put the word in the product name.

    When Jobs introduced a “Truly Magical and Revolutionary New Product” he was really excited about the reveal... we’re talking about a keyboard.
    Pretty sure it's a direct reference to the new stand-alone Magic Keyboard, implying that the MBP's keyboard is the same as it or using the same mechanisms. 
    Yeah, that’s obvious, but what makes that keyboard ‘magic’ as opposed to any other BT keyboard?
  • Reply 28 of 62
    MplsP said:
    Solid machine.

    My biggest complaint is marketing... the “MacBook Pro Magic Keyboard”.  

    Does it go with my MAGIC socks or MAGIC shoes?  What about my MAGIC tie?

    Leave “magical” or “magic” to describe new products, and don’t put the word in the product name.

    When Jobs introduced a “Truly Magical and Revolutionary New Product” he was really excited about the reveal... we’re talking about a keyboard.
    Pretty sure it's a direct reference to the new stand-alone Magic Keyboard, implying that the MBP's keyboard is the same as it or using the same mechanisms. 
    Yeah, that’s obvious, but what makes that keyboard ‘magic’ as opposed to any other BT keyboard?

    The “Magic” part comes from the branding of the Magic Mouse which was the first to be called that. You can decide for yourself if should have been called that, but all of their accessories mouse/keyboard/trackpad use this naming convention now. 
  • Reply 29 of 62
    I give Apple a high five for fixing the keyboard, power & thermals (still needs a bit more work on this). The larger display is nice and the ability to set the FPS is nice for film/video work.

    We are still stuck with a system which fails to be as functional with a pro's workflow as the older 2015 MacBook Pro.
  • Reply 30 of 62
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,251member
    tht said:
    tyler82 said:
    Am I the only one that likes the butterfly keyboard? I liked it from the first moment I typed on it. I've never been a keyboard snob though. I like the chiclet keys in the apple wireless keyboard, and the super heavy clicky keys of mechanical keyboards. I loved the old ADB Extended Keyboard/ Keyboard II. Guess there's never really a keyboard I've never liked on a Mac.
    You are definitely not the only one. I like the butterfly keys much much better than the scissors switch keys in the MBP16 and prior Apple keyboards, and I like the Touchbar over the function row.

    I definitely prefer a swift buckling action, ie, clicky clacky keys, over the more gradual spring actuation. This includes full sized keyboards with 4 to 5 mm of travel. Definitely prefer the mechanics of a light stroke until the end, there is a rise in force and a swift buckling and stop to indicate the key has been actuated. Razor has a high end external keyboard that does this. The butterfly keyboard is great at this.

    Every time you hear someone complain about it, you have to mentally think they are talking about a pair of gloves, an article of clothing, as they just giving their subjective opinion of how it fits, not some objective fact.
    Let's see if I understood.  If someone criticize negatively butterfly keyboards, is just a subjective opinion, and not an objective fact.  If that's the case, I could say that MacBooks don't have the best trackpad compared to other notebooks, is just a subjective opinion and not an objective fact.  Is that right?  Do you really think that some who don't like or criticize butterfly keyboards is not being objective?
    edited November 2019
  • Reply 31 of 62
    MplsPMplsP Posts: 3,679member
    Soli said:
    As much as I don't care for the keys using the butterfly mechanism (not necessary because of the butterfly mechanism) I would love to upgrade, but I think I"ll wait for WIFI 6 and LPDDR4 to be included before I upgrade again.
    I hadn't seen it mentioned but assumed it was - the 16" is not LPDDR4? 

    As for WiFi6, I agree it's an odd omission but do you think it will be significant for most people? I'm don't know a ton about wifi 6, but it strikes me as somewhat analogous to 5G - speed increases that won't really affect most people for the near term, increased connectivity for large numbers of devices and some other power considerations. It seems like this will not make a significant impact for most people for 3-4 years, and the people for whom it will make a difference are generally power users that are likely to upgrade their computer sooner; If you're someone for whom a 5 year old laptop is sufficient you probably won't miss the benefits of wifi 6. Is this off base?


  • Reply 32 of 62
    BigDann said:
    I give Apple a high five for fixing the keyboard, power & thermals (still needs a bit more work on this). The larger display is nice and the ability to set the FPS is nice for film/video work.

    We are still stuck with a system which fails to be as functional with a pro's workflow as the older 2015 MacBook Pro.
    How do you figure? Please don't tell me it's something about SD cards, professional photographers couldn't amount to more than 1% of buyers. And there's practically nothing outside of old mice and keyboards that can't be converted to USB-C with a fresh $12 cable.
  • Reply 33 of 62
    MplsPMplsP Posts: 3,679member
    danvm said:
    tht said:
    tyler82 said:
    Am I the only one that likes the butterfly keyboard? I liked it from the first moment I typed on it. I've never been a keyboard snob though. I like the chiclet keys in the apple wireless keyboard, and the super heavy clicky keys of mechanical keyboards. I loved the old ADB Extended Keyboard/ Keyboard II. Guess there's never really a keyboard I've never liked on a Mac.
    You are definitely not the only one. I like the butterfly keys much much better than the scissors switch keys in the MBP16 and prior Apple keyboards, and I like the Touchbar over the function row.

    I definitely prefer a swift buckling action, ie, clicky clacky keys, over the more gradual spring actuation. This includes full sized keyboards with 4 to 5 mm of travel. Definitely prefer the mechanics of a light stroke until the end, there is a rise in force and a swift buckling and stop to indicate the key has been actuated. Razor has a high end external keyboard that does this. The butterfly keyboard is great at this.

    Every time you hear someone complain about it, you have to mentally think they are talking about a pair of gloves, an article of clothing, as they just giving their subjective opinion of how it fits, not some objective fact.
    Let's see if I understood.  If someone criticize negatively butterfly keyboards, is just a subjective opinion, and not an objective fact.  If that's the case, I could say that MacBooks don't have the best trackpad compared to other notebooks, is just a subjective opinion and not an objective fact.  Is that right?  Do you really think that some who don't like or criticize butterfly keyboards is not being objective?
    There were several complaints with the butterfly keyboards - increased noise, decreased travel, poor reliability and inability to repair/replace the keyboard or even remove individual keys. The increased noise was improved with subsequent generations. Reliability supposedly improved, but there still were some issues being reported. As far as the decreased travel, that was purely a preference thing. There were some who liked it, some who hated it and some who didn't care for it but got used to it. Either way, that portion is definitely an opinion. If you like it, fine. It works for you. Just because I may not like it doesn't mean your opinion is wrong.

    Personally, I don't care for it but have gotten used to the feel. The inability to repair or remove individual keys and the reliability are my main beefs, and those are not subjective.
  • Reply 34 of 62
    SoliSoli Posts: 10,033member
    MplsP said:
    Soli said:
    As much as I don't care for the keys using the butterfly mechanism (not necessary because of the butterfly mechanism) I would love to upgrade, but I think I"ll wait for WIFI 6 and LPDDR4 to be included before I upgrade again.
    I hadn't seen it mentioned but assumed it was - the 16" is not LPDDR4? 

    As for WiFi6, I agree it's an odd omission but do you think it will be significant for most people? I'm don't know a ton about wifi 6, but it strikes me as somewhat analogous to 5G - speed increases that won't really affect most people for the near term, increased connectivity for large numbers of devices and some other power considerations. It seems like this will not make a significant impact for most people for 3-4 years, and the people for whom it will make a difference are generally power users that are likely to upgrade their computer sooner; If you're someone for whom a 5 year old laptop is sufficient you probably won't miss the benefits of wifi 6. Is this off base?
    WIFI 6 is very different from 5G. Having the HW in a personal device today means I could have access to that speed in my home today, too. There also aren't the limitations that we're seeing with 5G v 4G as we see with 802.11ax v 802.11ac.

    I was already looking at WIFI 6 routers, but will likely hold off until the Mac is WIFI 6 ready and I get one. My expectation that the next Mac notebook would be WIFI 6 capable is for the simple fact that this year's iPhones all contain WIFI 6. While I do use a lo of data within my home, most of that is between my Mac server, NAS, and MacBook Pro, not my iPhone.

    PS: I still see a great many WiFi setups that aren't even on 802.11ac (most likely in commercial settings, but 802.11n and older is still very common in homes), but I am also seeing people be less stingy with adopting better routers when they do upgrade. The correlation with out-of-sight-out-of-mind and wanting to put money toward a product, even if they are using it constantly, is still ever present, but it does seem to cause considerably less grief to tell people they could probably use a $300 mesh router system to replace their decade old Netgear 802.11g router that needs to be reset frequently. Maybe router companies should offer trial periods like mattress companies do. I bet they'd get a lot people to pony up for quality equipment if they can see how it will be faster and less of a hassle.
    edited November 2019
  • Reply 35 of 62
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,251member
    MplsP said:
    danvm said:
    tht said:
    tyler82 said:
    Am I the only one that likes the butterfly keyboard? I liked it from the first moment I typed on it. I've never been a keyboard snob though. I like the chiclet keys in the apple wireless keyboard, and the super heavy clicky keys of mechanical keyboards. I loved the old ADB Extended Keyboard/ Keyboard II. Guess there's never really a keyboard I've never liked on a Mac.
    You are definitely not the only one. I like the butterfly keys much much better than the scissors switch keys in the MBP16 and prior Apple keyboards, and I like the Touchbar over the function row.

    I definitely prefer a swift buckling action, ie, clicky clacky keys, over the more gradual spring actuation. This includes full sized keyboards with 4 to 5 mm of travel. Definitely prefer the mechanics of a light stroke until the end, there is a rise in force and a swift buckling and stop to indicate the key has been actuated. Razor has a high end external keyboard that does this. The butterfly keyboard is great at this.

    Every time you hear someone complain about it, you have to mentally think they are talking about a pair of gloves, an article of clothing, as they just giving their subjective opinion of how it fits, not some objective fact.
    Let's see if I understood.  If someone criticize negatively butterfly keyboards, is just a subjective opinion, and not an objective fact.  If that's the case, I could say that MacBooks don't have the best trackpad compared to other notebooks, is just a subjective opinion and not an objective fact.  Is that right?  Do you really think that some who don't like or criticize butterfly keyboards is not being objective?
    There were several complaints with the butterfly keyboards - increased noise, decreased travel, poor reliability and inability to repair/replace the keyboard or even remove individual keys. The increased noise was improved with subsequent generations. Reliability supposedly improved, but there still were some issues being reported. As far as the decreased travel, that was purely a preference thing. There were some who liked it, some who hated it and some who didn't care for it but got used to it. Either way, that portion is definitely an opinion. If you like it, fine. It works for you. Just because I may not like it doesn't mean your opinion is wrong.

    Personally, I don't care for it but have gotten used to the feel. The inability to repair or remove individual keys and the reliability are my main beefs, and those are not subjective.
    I know preferences are subjective.  But my post was focused on criticizing and not being objective.  I work with many devices and see the difference in a keyboard like in Thinkpads or Surface devices, compared to MBP's.  That doesn't means I'm not being objective when I criticize negatively MBP keyboards. 

    At the same time, for years Apple have been praised for it's excellent trackpad.  But if keyboards are subjective, we can extend that POV to MBP trackpads and say they aren't good, but just a matter of "subjective opinion and not and objective fact", right?

    And you bring another point, you just get used to the feel.  I remember when I purchase my first MBP many years ago.  Instantly I noticed the difference in quality compared to other notebooks.  I didn't had to get used to it.  It was excellent, period.  So why do I have to get used to the butterfly keyboard if it's so good?

    But like you said, if some like it, be happy with it...   ;)
  • Reply 36 of 62
    SoliSoli Posts: 10,033member
    danvm said:
    And you bring another point, you just get used to the feel.  I remember when I purchase my first MBP many years ago.  Instantly I noticed the difference in quality compared to other notebooks.  I didn't had to get used to it.  It was excellent, period.  So why do I have to get used to the butterfly keyboard if it's so good?
    We often have to be rewired for better things. There's no effort involved for some things, like getting used to twice as much bandwidth for the internet, (but it could be jarring to have it drop by half.

    Do you remember when Apple switched the default scrolling direction in macOS so that the finger direction matched the direction of the screen elements? This was to match how iOS works, it's what we were using with iOS, it made perfect sense, and yet it still took a little getting used to. There are countless examples of this and none of them mean it's not a "good" solution because we've had to be trained.

    PS: I have gotten used to using my MBP's keyboard because I've been using it every day for years, but it still doesn't feel as good or work as well for me as my 2013 MBP when I jump back to it. I don't plan on getting the 16" MBP but if I use that keyboard it may very well be a $3000 implies buy.
  • Reply 37 of 62
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,251member
    Soli said:
    danvm said:
    And you bring another point, you just get used to the feel.  I remember when I purchase my first MBP many years ago.  Instantly I noticed the difference in quality compared to other notebooks.  I didn't had to get used to it.  It was excellent, period.  So why do I have to get used to the butterfly keyboard if it's so good?
    We often have to be rewired for better things. There's no effort involved for some things, like getting used to twice as much bandwidth for the internet, (but it could be jarring to have it drop by half.

    Do you remember when Apple switched the default scrolling direction in macOS so that the finger direction matched the direction of the screen elements? This was to match how iOS works, it's what we were using with iOS, it made perfect sense, and yet it still took a little getting used to. There are countless examples of this and none of them mean it's not a "good" solution because we've had to be trained.

    PS: I have gotten used to using my MBP's keyboard because I've been using it every day for years, but it still doesn't feel as good or work as well for me as my 2013 MBP when I jump back to it. I don't plan on getting the 16" MBP but if I use that keyboard it may very well be a $3000 implies buy.
    I get your point of being "rewired", but most of the time is when something is not good.  When something is good, as Apple trackpads or Thinkpad / Surface keyboards, you adapt to it without issues.  IMO, and from what I have seen, that didn't happen with the butterfly keyboard.  And it's more noticeable when you have to work in a frequent basis with Thinkpads and Suface devices, that have excellent keyboards, and now their trackpads aren't that bad at all.  Now we have to see how the new MBP keyboard works...
  • Reply 38 of 62
    SoliSoli Posts: 10,033member
    danvm said:
    Soli said:
    danvm said:
    And you bring another point, you just get used to the feel.  I remember when I purchase my first MBP many years ago.  Instantly I noticed the difference in quality compared to other notebooks.  I didn't had to get used to it.  It was excellent, period.  So why do I have to get used to the butterfly keyboard if it's so good?
    We often have to be rewired for better things. There's no effort involved for some things, like getting used to twice as much bandwidth for the internet, (but it could be jarring to have it drop by half.

    Do you remember when Apple switched the default scrolling direction in macOS so that the finger direction matched the direction of the screen elements? This was to match how iOS works, it's what we were using with iOS, it made perfect sense, and yet it still took a little getting used to. There are countless examples of this and none of them mean it's not a "good" solution because we've had to be trained.

    PS: I have gotten used to using my MBP's keyboard because I've been using it every day for years, but it still doesn't feel as good or work as well for me as my 2013 MBP when I jump back to it. I don't plan on getting the 16" MBP but if I use that keyboard it may very well be a $3000 implies buy.
    I get your point of being "rewired", but most of the time is when something is not good.  When something is good, as Apple trackpads or Thinkpad / Surface keyboards, you adapt to it without issues.  IMO, and from what I have seen, that didn't happen with the butterfly keyboard.  And it's more noticeable when you have to work in a frequent basis with Thinkpads and Suface devices, that have excellent keyboards, and now their trackpads aren't that bad at all.  Now we have to see how the new MBP keyboard works…
    It happens all the time, and it's not necessarily good or bad. Learning to drive on the opposite side of the street, or transitioning from flying a plane back to driving.

    We also saw people have to get use to USB-A over a plethora of other ports (which they complained about), and having to get use to not having an ODD (which they complained about). Then there are countless OS changes which people always complain about. Some people not only welcome the change they've asked it for a long time, while others simply figure out how to use and then like it more, with other choosing to use it but not preferring it, and then others refusing to use it altogether by failing to update for many years. None of those changes mean it was a bad move simply because people didn't like the change, or the original iPhone would be a failure because it was large with its ridiculously sized 3.5" display and no physical keyboard.
  • Reply 39 of 62
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,251member
    Soli said:
    danvm said:
    Soli said:
    danvm said:
    And you bring another point, you just get used to the feel.  I remember when I purchase my first MBP many years ago.  Instantly I noticed the difference in quality compared to other notebooks.  I didn't had to get used to it.  It was excellent, period.  So why do I have to get used to the butterfly keyboard if it's so good?
    We often have to be rewired for better things. There's no effort involved for some things, like getting used to twice as much bandwidth for the internet, (but it could be jarring to have it drop by half.

    Do you remember when Apple switched the default scrolling direction in macOS so that the finger direction matched the direction of the screen elements? This was to match how iOS works, it's what we were using with iOS, it made perfect sense, and yet it still took a little getting used to. There are countless examples of this and none of them mean it's not a "good" solution because we've had to be trained.

    PS: I have gotten used to using my MBP's keyboard because I've been using it every day for years, but it still doesn't feel as good or work as well for me as my 2013 MBP when I jump back to it. I don't plan on getting the 16" MBP but if I use that keyboard it may very well be a $3000 implies buy.
    I get your point of being "rewired", but most of the time is when something is not good.  When something is good, as Apple trackpads or Thinkpad / Surface keyboards, you adapt to it without issues.  IMO, and from what I have seen, that didn't happen with the butterfly keyboard.  And it's more noticeable when you have to work in a frequent basis with Thinkpads and Suface devices, that have excellent keyboards, and now their trackpads aren't that bad at all.  Now we have to see how the new MBP keyboard works…
    It happens all the time, and it's not necessarily good or bad. Learning to drive on the opposite side of the street, or transitioning from flying a plane back to driving.

    We also saw people have to get use to USB-A over a plethora of other ports (which they complained about), and having to get use to not having an ODD (which they complained about). Then there are countless OS changes which people always complain about. Some people not only welcome the change they've asked it for a long time, while others simply figure out how to use and then like it more, with other choosing to use it but not preferring it, and then others refusing to use it altogether by failing to update for many years. None of those changes mean it was a bad move simply because people didn't like the change, or the original iPhone would be a failure because it was large with its ridiculously sized 3.5" display and no physical keyboard.
    I agree with you with that there are cases where is not necessarily good / bad, as the example you gave with scrolling direction.  But in this case, the keyboard was a step back for a lot of people compared to the MBP 2015 and other Windows notebooks.  Many people already got used to it, because it was the only device they had.  And even some of them prefer it over the old one.  But again, if it was that good, why it takes so long to adapt / get used to it?  Compare that to the experience of Apple trackpads and Thinkpad / Surface keyboards, where instantly you feel the quality.  Personally, and for many people, I didn't felt that with the butterfly keyboard.  Maybe if I had more time with my MBP, I had got used to it.  A the same time, I think Apple going back to the scissor-mechanism shows that something didn't went as expected.  

    I'm not sure if people got already used to the lack of USB-A ports.  They just use what they need to complete their workflow, so I suppose they had to add adapters, dongles and docking stations.  Don't you think that would be a better experience if the MBP had one or two USB-A ports?  Again, they may got used to that, but that doesn't means you have the best experience.  Same as ODD.  Many people missed optical disks until downloads and USB drives were more common.  

    On the iPhone, IMO there was no device as good as it.  Not even close.  At the time 3.5" was not a bad thing.  But you got a point with the on-screen keyboard.  Typing was better in Blackberries and other devices with physical keyboard.  But not having physical keyboard in the iPhone gave a better overall experience, like having apps in full screen, and in my case, keyboard in different languages.  When users saw how good the iPhone was, they had no issues sacrificing the typing experience (including myself).  My question is, did the MBP is a better device because of the butterfly keyboard?  IMO, no it isn't.  And based in what I have read in the last 3 years, a lot of people feel the same way.  
  • Reply 40 of 62
    thttht Posts: 4,492member
    danvm said:
    MplsP said:
    danvm said:
    tht said:
    tyler82 said:
    Am I the only one that likes the butterfly keyboard? I liked it from the first moment I typed on it. I've never been a keyboard snob though. I like the chiclet keys in the apple wireless keyboard, and the super heavy clicky keys of mechanical keyboards. I loved the old ADB Extended Keyboard/ Keyboard II. Guess there's never really a keyboard I've never liked on a Mac.
    You are definitely not the only one. I like the butterfly keys much much better than the scissors switch keys in the MBP16 and prior Apple keyboards, and I like the Touchbar over the function row.

    I definitely prefer a swift buckling action, ie, clicky clacky keys, over the more gradual spring actuation. This includes full sized keyboards with 4 to 5 mm of travel. Definitely prefer the mechanics of a light stroke until the end, there is a rise in force and a swift buckling and stop to indicate the key has been actuated. Razor has a high end external keyboard that does this. The butterfly keyboard is great at this.

    Every time you hear someone complain about it, you have to mentally think they are talking about a pair of gloves, an article of clothing, as they just giving their subjective opinion of how it fits, not some objective fact.
    Let's see if I understood.  If someone criticize negatively butterfly keyboards, is just a subjective opinion, and not an objective fact.  If that's the case, I could say that MacBooks don't have the best trackpad compared to other notebooks, is just a subjective opinion and not an objective fact.  Is that right?  Do you really think that some who don't like or criticize butterfly keyboards is not being objective?
    There were several complaints with the butterfly keyboards - increased noise, decreased travel, poor reliability and inability to repair/replace the keyboard or even remove individual keys. The increased noise was improved with subsequent generations. Reliability supposedly improved, but there still were some issues being reported. As far as the decreased travel, that was purely a preference thing. There were some who liked it, some who hated it and some who didn't care for it but got used to it. Either way, that portion is definitely an opinion. If you like it, fine. It works for you. Just because I may not like it doesn't mean your opinion is wrong.

    Personally, I don't care for it but have gotten used to the feel. The inability to repair or remove individual keys and the reliability are my main beefs, and those are not subjective.
    I know preferences are subjective.  But my post was focused on criticizing and not being objective.  I work with many devices and see the difference in a keyboard like in Thinkpads or Surface devices, compared to MBP's.  That doesn't means I'm not being objective when I criticize negatively MBP keyboards. 

    At the same time, for years Apple have been praised for it's excellent trackpad.  But if keyboards are subjective, we can extend that POV to MBP trackpads and say they aren't good, but just a matter of "subjective opinion and not and objective fact", right?

    And you bring another point, you just get used to the feel.  I remember when I purchase my first MBP many years ago.  Instantly I noticed the difference in quality compared to other notebooks.  I didn't had to get used to it.  It was excellent, period.  So why do I have to get used to the butterfly keyboard if it's so good?

    But like you said, if some like it, be happy with it...   ;)
    What objective measures are you using to declare that something is good or bad? The gadget/tech media is very narrow focused on their own use cases, and it’s their job to have an opinion, or a story, not to have objective facts. Hard to trust their opinion or some random person’s opinion on the Internet about things. And as the device, gadget, product gets closer and closer to being clothes or food or art, the quality of a product increasingly becomes subjective to the whims and fashions of the user, no? I do think keyboards and trackpads start to approach a wearable category.

    For trackpads, there are obvious measurements that can be made, such as touch latency, UI scroll tracking, multitouch or gesture identification, surface friction, size, click response response, gesture command set. You can do these measurements, and Apple trackpads will come out on top or near the top of various quality measurements. People don’t do them, but this is one of those things that is very obvious in the performance of a trackpad after a few minutes of use. If it wasn’t for most trackpads on Windows being terrible, there would be more subjective opinion on what OEM has the best trackpad, rather than what is now: Apple, then maybe MS, and the rest is a sea of mediocrity.

    For keyboards, what objective measures are you using to determine what is a good keyboard? It has to be at least words per minute, some dexterity measurement for cursor control, so on and so forth. Maybe there should be an repetitive stress injury indicator of some kind? (This is likely a nothingburger if not dangerous). Shouldn’t a reviewer type a 1000 word benchmark to figure it out? Has anyone said that they type slower on a butterfly keyboard?

    Then, a keyboard is basically a tool that is continually learned through practice across a lifetime of use, making the layout of the keyboard a baked in part of a person’s opinion of the quality of a keyboard. Proficiency is length-of-use dependent, and each user has a learned process of how they use a keyboard, and how would you test this? Is there actually one good way to use a keyboard? Is the quality of a keyboard dependent on a users knowledge of a keyboard, and dependent on how they learned how to use a keyboard?

    Eg, Marco Arment and others complain about the gaps between keys not being big enough, due to butterfly keys being bigger while the key-to-key spacing is preserved. They say the gap is important to them as it helps them feel where the keys are. I hear that and I’m thinking “WTF? Aren’t these guys touch typists by now?” Maybe I misunderstood what “touch typing” means? Or the much hated full height left and right arrow keys. The Surface devices have full height left and right arrow keys with half height up-down keys, right? Well, after all the complaints about the MBP not having an inverted T arrow key layout, that must mean the Surface keyboard sucks?
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