Here's the point-counterpoint article from there. Guess who is a spitting image of SDW/Noah/Fellowship!
Quote:
Nathan Eckert: This War Will Destabilize The Entire Mideast Region And Set Off A Global Shockwave of Anti-Americanism
George W. Bush may think that a war against Iraq is the solution to our problems, but the reality is, it will only serve to create far more.
This war will not put an end to anti-Americanism; it will fan the flames of hatred even higher. It will not end the threat of weapons of mass destruction; it will make possible their further proliferation. And it will not lay the groundwork for the flourishing of democracy throughout the Mideast; it will harden the resolve of Arab states to drive out all Western (i.e. U.S.) influence.
If you thought Osama bin Laden was bad, just wait until the countless children who become orphaned by U.S. bombs in the coming weeks are all grown up. Do you think they will forget what country dropped the bombs that killed their parents? In 10 or 15 years, we will look back fondly on the days when there were only a few thousand Middle Easterners dedicated to destroying the U.S. and willing to die for the fundamentalist cause. From this war, a million bin Ladens will bloom.
And what exactly is our endgame here? Do we really believe that we can install Gen. Tommy Franks as the ruler of Iraq? Is our arrogance and hubris so great that we actually believe that a U.S. provisional military regime will be welcomed with open arms by the Iraqi people? Democracy cannot possibly thrive under coercion. To take over a country and impose one's own system of government without regard for the people of that country is the very antithesis of democracy. And it is doomed to fail.
A war against Iraq is not only morally wrong, it will be an unmitigated disaster.
Bob Sheffer: No It Won't
No it won't.
It just won't. None of that will happen.
You're getting worked up over nothing. Everything is going to be fine. So just relax, okay? You're really overreacting.
"This war will not put an end to anti-Americanism; it will fan the flames of hatred even higher"?
It won't.
"It will harden the resolve of Arab states to drive out all Western (i.e. U.S.) influence"?
Not really.
"A war against Iraq is not only morally wrong, it will be an unmitigated disaster"?
Sorry, no, I disagree.
"To take over a country and impose one's own system of government without regard for the people of that country is the very antithesis of democracy"?
You are completely wrong.
Trust me, it's all going to work out perfect. Nothing bad is going to happen. It's all under control.
Why do you keep saying these things? I can tell when there's trouble looming, and I really don't sense that right now. We're in control of this situation, and we know what we're doing. So stop being so pessimistic.
Look, you've been proven wrong, so stop talking. You've had your say already.
RE: BR's quote: We dropped 2 of the biggest bombs ever on the Japanese and their children didn't grow up to be terrorists bent on destroying America. It all depends on what we do AFTER we drop the bombs and help shape their country afterwards. If we screw it up, however, there is a good chance we will create some resentment and anger and we'll have to reap what we sow. But lets be positive!
Here's the point-counterpoint article from there. Guess who is a spitting image of SDW/Noah/Fellowship!
article (which i won't repeat, see above)
HAH!
when i read that bit, i thought maybe the onion had ripped off some AI posts. i'm glad to see you noticed that. it made me laugh.
but i guess not everyone gets the onion or satire in general.
i was going to quote the article also but i realized that around here it could be dangerous and take this thread in a serious direction which WAS NOT MY INTENT because frankly i'm weary of the sabbath gasbags* telling me what their opinion is.
*sabbath gasbags is a Calvin Trillinism for all of the pols and pundits who appear on sunday morning news/talk shows. and has no religious connotations at all. so please, hold the religious indignation.
RE: BR's quote: We dropped 2 of the biggest bombs ever on the Japanese and their children didn't grow up to be terrorists bent on destroying America. It all depends on what we do AFTER we drop the bombs and help shape their country afterwards. If we screw it up, however, there is a good chance we will create some resentment and anger and we'll have to reap what we sow. But lets be positive!
Comparing the two situations is so wrong I don't even know where to begin.
RE: BR's quote: We dropped 2 of the biggest bombs ever on the Japanese and their children didn't grow up to be terrorists bent on destroying America. It all depends on what we do AFTER we drop the bombs and help shape their country afterwards. If we screw it up, however, there is a good chance we will create some resentment and anger and we'll have to reap what we sow. But lets be positive!
I'm all for Marshall Plans for these countries we are currently ripping apart. The quote was simply poking fun at the lack of an argument that certain people here present. It amounts to little more than "Nuh uh! Not true! Liar!"
I'm all for Marshall Plans for these countries we are currently ripping apart. The quote was simply poking fun at the lack of an argument that certain people here present. It amounts to little more than "Nuh uh! Not true! Liar!"
We dropped 2 of the biggest bombs ever on the Japanese and their children didn't grow up to be terrorists bent on destroying America.
Outsider, duh. These are *brown* people. Brown people want to be terrorists. They just can't wait. They are savages who daily dream of jihad against the US. The war will increase terrorism because they are brown and irrational. Silly silly boy.
Outsider, duh. These are *brown* people. Brown people want to be terrorists. They just can't wait. They are savages who daily dream of jihad against the US. The war will increase terrorism because they are brown and irrational. Silly silly boy.
Make a lot of Europe really mad, polarize the "left" in your nation against you to get re-elected. GENIUS! Thousands protesting in the streets against you. That's how you get re-elected!
Outsider, duh. These are *brown* people. Brown people want to be terrorists. They just can't wait. They are savages who daily dream of jihad against the US. The war will increase terrorism because they are brown and irrational. Silly silly boy.
We certainly should take into account the enormous cultural differences between the Japanese and the Arab people, if we're going to make these kind of comparisons, and the historical circumstances of these two wars, too.
I don't remember WW2 being kicked off against a background of Japanese terrorism directed at civilians anywhere in the world, for example, while you might even argue that there's a sort of precedent for certain of these 'brown people' to do exactly that. (Planes, bombs, you know.)
So I suppose you'd be entitled to ask if this war being fought now is likely to address the grievences of these particular 'brown people' or further stir them up.
Strange, from reading your (and a few others') posts I had got the impression that the American public was firmly behind this 'just' war and that the protesters were just a few stoner college kids looking for a good time and a smattering of anti-jew, anti-american, pro-saddam pressure groups.
I wouldn't have thought that they made up Bush's core constituency.
The Japanese, at the end of the war, were impoverished, tired of the regime by which the were controlled, and terrified about the prospects of the future. They had high literacy rates and good public education before the war. They had already industrialized as well.
The iraqi people are an impoverished people as well who also are tired of the regime by which they are controlled. They also (once the war is over), will be somewhat apprehensive about the prospects of the future. They had high literacy rates and decent public education along with excellent civil service institutions before the gulf war. They also have already industrialized.
These circumstances I highlighted because these are the circumstances that most promote the growth of democracy in nations where democracy did not exist. I do not see how you cannot compare the two situations. They are similar. Yes they have remarkably different cultures, but culture is not the only issue here. Economic and political environment plays a huge role in the ways in which democracy will be accepted by a formerly oppressed people. If democracy is embraced, then we have nothing to fear. Terrorism will only result from this situation from Iraq itself if the Iraqi people are not allowed to flourish and grow and create their own democratic country. ALL past situations show this to be true.
So I suppose you'd be entitled to ask if this war being fought now is likely to address the grievences of these particular 'brown people' or further stir them up.
Or even if this particular war will really cause anyone who didn't already want to terrorize the US to do it, I think is the more prudent question.
What major terrorist lists Western involvement in Iraq among his main bitches against the US?
I am fascinated how people want to say that Iraq has no connection to terrorism WHILE SAYING that war in Iraq will increase terrorism.
I think the only thing we can do RIGHT NOW to stop terrorism is find a peace in Israel/Palestine. Iraq is a red herring used by both sides, in the grand scheme of things.
I think the only thing we can do RIGHT NOW to stop terrorism is find a peace in Israel/Palestine.
Yes, yes, and thrice yes.
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
I am fascinated how people want to say that Iraq has no connection to terrorism WHILE SAYING that war in Iraq will increase terrorism.
Well, there are no links between Al'Qaeda and Saddam. He hasn't furnished them with any material support or WOMD. If you can show one shred of proof then I'll take your point. And none of the 9/11 terrorists were Iraqi. Not sure how many of the Taleban prisoners taken from Afghanistan were Iraqi, bound to be a couple I expect, but I bet they're principally Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Afghani, Saudi.
So as far as that goes, I don't think there's a link.
One of Osama's main beefs with the US and the Saudis is the presence of US bases on holy soil in Saudi. The other is that America is Evil. The fear is that this looks like more American conquest of A Proud Arab Nation and that the sons of the Iraqi fathers killed by an invading we-don't-care-what-you-think hyperpower will be easy prey to the propaganda of the terrorist types.
Strange, from reading your (and a few others') posts I had got the impression that the American public was firmly behind this 'just' war and that the protesters were just a few stoner college kids looking for a good time and a smattering of anti-jew, anti-american, pro-saddam pressure groups.
I have never said anything like that. I have said that protestors are idiots. I neither know nor really care what "the American public" thinks.
Hassan:
Quote:
Well, there are no links between Al'Qaeda and Saddam. He hasn't furnished them with any material support or WOMD. If you can show one shred of proof then I'll take your point. And none of the 9/11 terrorists were Iraqi. Not sure how many of the Taleban prisoners taken from Afghanistan were Iraqi, bound to be a couple I expect, but I bet they're principally Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Afghani, Saudi.
Did I say there was a link? Hmmm indeed. I don't give a shit if there is, if you had read my post I said terrorism wrt:Iraq was a red herring used by both sides.
Quote:
One of Osama's main beefs with the US and the Saudis is the presence of US bases on holy soil in Saudi. The other is that America is Evil.
Exactly, nothing to do with Iraq or our actions in Iraq.
Quote:
The fear is that this looks like more American conquest of A Proud Arab Nation and that the sons of the Iraqi fathers killed by an invading we-don't-care-what-you-think hyperpower will be easy prey to the propaganda of the terrorist types.
Quite a specious and non-specific fear, methinks. One based on quite a healthy dose of racial fear.
Comments
I made this...
Nathan Eckert: This War Will Destabilize The Entire Mideast Region And Set Off A Global Shockwave of Anti-Americanism
George W. Bush may think that a war against Iraq is the solution to our problems, but the reality is, it will only serve to create far more.
This war will not put an end to anti-Americanism; it will fan the flames of hatred even higher. It will not end the threat of weapons of mass destruction; it will make possible their further proliferation. And it will not lay the groundwork for the flourishing of democracy throughout the Mideast; it will harden the resolve of Arab states to drive out all Western (i.e. U.S.) influence.
If you thought Osama bin Laden was bad, just wait until the countless children who become orphaned by U.S. bombs in the coming weeks are all grown up. Do you think they will forget what country dropped the bombs that killed their parents? In 10 or 15 years, we will look back fondly on the days when there were only a few thousand Middle Easterners dedicated to destroying the U.S. and willing to die for the fundamentalist cause. From this war, a million bin Ladens will bloom.
And what exactly is our endgame here? Do we really believe that we can install Gen. Tommy Franks as the ruler of Iraq? Is our arrogance and hubris so great that we actually believe that a U.S. provisional military regime will be welcomed with open arms by the Iraqi people? Democracy cannot possibly thrive under coercion. To take over a country and impose one's own system of government without regard for the people of that country is the very antithesis of democracy. And it is doomed to fail.
A war against Iraq is not only morally wrong, it will be an unmitigated disaster.
Bob Sheffer: No It Won't
No it won't.
It just won't. None of that will happen.
You're getting worked up over nothing. Everything is going to be fine. So just relax, okay? You're really overreacting.
"This war will not put an end to anti-Americanism; it will fan the flames of hatred even higher"?
It won't.
"It will harden the resolve of Arab states to drive out all Western (i.e. U.S.) influence"?
Not really.
"A war against Iraq is not only morally wrong, it will be an unmitigated disaster"?
Sorry, no, I disagree.
"To take over a country and impose one's own system of government without regard for the people of that country is the very antithesis of democracy"?
You are completely wrong.
Trust me, it's all going to work out perfect. Nothing bad is going to happen. It's all under control.
Why do you keep saying these things? I can tell when there's trouble looming, and I really don't sense that right now. We're in control of this situation, and we know what we're doing. So stop being so pessimistic.
Look, you've been proven wrong, so stop talking. You've had your say already.
Be quiet, okay? Everything's fine.
You're wrong.
HAH!
Originally posted by BR
Here's the point-counterpoint article from there. Guess who is a spitting image of SDW/Noah/Fellowship!
article (which i won't repeat, see above)
HAH!
when i read that bit, i thought maybe the onion had ripped off some AI posts. i'm glad to see you noticed that. it made me laugh.
but i guess not everyone gets the onion or satire in general.
i was going to quote the article also but i realized that around here it could be dangerous and take this thread in a serious direction which WAS NOT MY INTENT because frankly i'm weary of the sabbath gasbags* telling me what their opinion is.
*sabbath gasbags is a Calvin Trillinism for all of the pols and pundits who appear on sunday morning news/talk shows. and has no religious connotations at all. so please, hold the religious indignation.
Originally posted by Outsider
RE: BR's quote: We dropped 2 of the biggest bombs ever on the Japanese and their children didn't grow up to be terrorists bent on destroying America. It all depends on what we do AFTER we drop the bombs and help shape their country afterwards. If we screw it up, however, there is a good chance we will create some resentment and anger and we'll have to reap what we sow. But lets be positive!
Comparing the two situations is so wrong I don't even know where to begin.
Originally posted by Outsider
RE: BR's quote: We dropped 2 of the biggest bombs ever on the Japanese and their children didn't grow up to be terrorists bent on destroying America. It all depends on what we do AFTER we drop the bombs and help shape their country afterwards. If we screw it up, however, there is a good chance we will create some resentment and anger and we'll have to reap what we sow. But lets be positive!
I'm all for Marshall Plans for these countries we are currently ripping apart. The quote was simply poking fun at the lack of an argument that certain people here present. It amounts to little more than "Nuh uh! Not true! Liar!"
you all just go have your pissing match now.
continue....
Originally posted by BR
I'm all for Marshall Plans for these countries we are currently ripping apart. The quote was simply poking fun at the lack of an argument that certain people here present. It amounts to little more than "Nuh uh! Not true! Liar!"
I hear you.
We dropped 2 of the biggest bombs ever on the Japanese and their children didn't grow up to be terrorists bent on destroying America.
Outsider, duh. These are *brown* people. Brown people want to be terrorists. They just can't wait. They are savages who daily dream of jihad against the US. The war will increase terrorism because they are brown and irrational. Silly silly boy.
--
This war is Operation Nukular Strategerie
Originally posted by groverat
Outsider, duh. These are *brown* people. Brown people want to be terrorists. They just can't wait. They are savages who daily dream of jihad against the US. The war will increase terrorism because they are brown and irrational. Silly silly boy.
--
This war is Operation Nukular Strategerie
More like "Operation Four More Years"
Make a lot of Europe really mad, polarize the "left" in your nation against you to get re-elected. GENIUS! Thousands protesting in the streets against you. That's how you get re-elected!
Now THAT is strategerie.
Originally posted by groverat
Outsider, duh. These are *brown* people. Brown people want to be terrorists. They just can't wait. They are savages who daily dream of jihad against the US. The war will increase terrorism because they are brown and irrational. Silly silly boy.
We certainly should take into account the enormous cultural differences between the Japanese and the Arab people, if we're going to make these kind of comparisons, and the historical circumstances of these two wars, too.
I don't remember WW2 being kicked off against a background of Japanese terrorism directed at civilians anywhere in the world, for example, while you might even argue that there's a sort of precedent for certain of these 'brown people' to do exactly that. (Planes, bombs, you know.)
So I suppose you'd be entitled to ask if this war being fought now is likely to address the grievences of these particular 'brown people' or further stir them up.
Well it worked in canadian bacon, or rather...would have worked, if those damn canucks hadn't had the drop on us *grrrr*
Strange, from reading your (and a few others') posts I had got the impression that the American public was firmly behind this 'just' war and that the protesters were just a few stoner college kids looking for a good time and a smattering of anti-jew, anti-american, pro-saddam pressure groups.
I wouldn't have thought that they made up Bush's core constituency.
pro-saddam????
The iraqi people are an impoverished people as well who also are tired of the regime by which they are controlled. They also (once the war is over), will be somewhat apprehensive about the prospects of the future. They had high literacy rates and decent public education along with excellent civil service institutions before the gulf war. They also have already industrialized.
These circumstances I highlighted because these are the circumstances that most promote the growth of democracy in nations where democracy did not exist. I do not see how you cannot compare the two situations. They are similar. Yes they have remarkably different cultures, but culture is not the only issue here. Economic and political environment plays a huge role in the ways in which democracy will be accepted by a formerly oppressed people. If democracy is embraced, then we have nothing to fear. Terrorism will only result from this situation from Iraq itself if the Iraqi people are not allowed to flourish and grow and create their own democratic country. ALL past situations show this to be true.
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
So I suppose you'd be entitled to ask if this war being fought now is likely to address the grievences of these particular 'brown people' or further stir them up.
Or even if this particular war will really cause anyone who didn't already want to terrorize the US to do it, I think is the more prudent question.
What major terrorist lists Western involvement in Iraq among his main bitches against the US?
I am fascinated how people want to say that Iraq has no connection to terrorism WHILE SAYING that war in Iraq will increase terrorism.
I think the only thing we can do RIGHT NOW to stop terrorism is find a peace in Israel/Palestine. Iraq is a red herring used by both sides, in the grand scheme of things.
Originally posted by groverat
I think the only thing we can do RIGHT NOW to stop terrorism is find a peace in Israel/Palestine.
Yes, yes, and thrice yes.
Originally posted by groverat
I am fascinated how people want to say that Iraq has no connection to terrorism WHILE SAYING that war in Iraq will increase terrorism.
Well, there are no links between Al'Qaeda and Saddam. He hasn't furnished them with any material support or WOMD. If you can show one shred of proof then I'll take your point. And none of the 9/11 terrorists were Iraqi. Not sure how many of the Taleban prisoners taken from Afghanistan were Iraqi, bound to be a couple I expect, but I bet they're principally Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Afghani, Saudi.
So as far as that goes, I don't think there's a link.
One of Osama's main beefs with the US and the Saudis is the presence of US bases on holy soil in Saudi. The other is that America is Evil. The fear is that this looks like more American conquest of A Proud Arab Nation and that the sons of the Iraqi fathers killed by an invading we-don't-care-what-you-think hyperpower will be easy prey to the propaganda of the terrorist types.
I gloss, but you get the point.
Originally posted by stupider...likeafox
Strange, from reading your (and a few others') posts I had got the impression that the American public was firmly behind this 'just' war and that the protesters were just a few stoner college kids looking for a good time and a smattering of anti-jew, anti-american, pro-saddam pressure groups.
I have never said anything like that. I have said that protestors are idiots. I neither know nor really care what "the American public" thinks.
Hassan:
Well, there are no links between Al'Qaeda and Saddam. He hasn't furnished them with any material support or WOMD. If you can show one shred of proof then I'll take your point. And none of the 9/11 terrorists were Iraqi. Not sure how many of the Taleban prisoners taken from Afghanistan were Iraqi, bound to be a couple I expect, but I bet they're principally Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Afghani, Saudi.
Did I say there was a link? Hmmm indeed. I don't give a shit if there is, if you had read my post I said terrorism wrt:Iraq was a red herring used by both sides.
One of Osama's main beefs with the US and the Saudis is the presence of US bases on holy soil in Saudi. The other is that America is Evil.
Exactly, nothing to do with Iraq or our actions in Iraq.
The fear is that this looks like more American conquest of A Proud Arab Nation and that the sons of the Iraqi fathers killed by an invading we-don't-care-what-you-think hyperpower will be easy prey to the propaganda of the terrorist types.
Quite a specious and non-specific fear, methinks. One based on quite a healthy dose of racial fear.