Valve abandons the macOS version of SteamVR

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 78
    canukstorm said: That may be true with respect to macOS but iOS is the largest mobile gaming platform.  It's doing really well.
    Apple Arcade is going to help macOS gaming. It's definitely effective at getting people who rarely gamed on their Mac or TV with Apple to do so now. It's just not going to be the PC port type of gaming from the past. I think Apple knew from experience that relying on PC ports to get people interested was a dead-end. The smaller market size for sales meant ports were typically sub-standard quality in terms of the optimization, came out much later than the PC versions, and made the overall selection very limited. Apple Arcade has eliminated all of those problems by focusing on original titles that are specifically prioritized for Apple hardware and operating systems.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 22 of 78
    elijahgelijahg Posts: 2,311member
    canukstorm said: That may be true with respect to macOS but iOS is the largest mobile gaming platform.  It's doing really well.
    Apple Arcade is going to help macOS gaming. It's definitely effective at getting people who rarely gamed on their Mac or TV with Apple to do so now. It's just not going to be the PC port type of gaming from the past. I think Apple knew from experience that relying on PC ports to get people interested was a dead-end. The smaller market size for sales meant ports were typically sub-standard quality in terms of the optimization, came out much later than the PC versions, and made the overall selection very limited. Apple Arcade has eliminated all of those problems by focusing on original titles that are specifically prioritized for Apple hardware and operating systems.
    True, but then Apple Arcade has what, 120 games - almost all of which are just blown up mobile-quality kid's games without ads, with the odd exception, whereas Steam has many thousands of full-featured titles. Seems the popular Apple Arcade games don't ever get meaningful updates either. 
    ElCapitandysamoria
  • Reply 23 of 78
    elijahg said: True, but then Apple Arcade has what, 120 games - almost all of which are just blown up mobile-quality kid's games without ads, with the odd exception, whereas Steam has many thousands of full-featured titles. Seems the popular Apple Arcade games don't ever get meaningful updates either. 
    The "thousands" of games for PC-centric Steam are a mirage for macOS. Most of the ports would never materialize, regardless of what GPUs Apple put into their hardware. Focusing on original content is a better strategy, and although people can shrug it off as simply "mobile kids games" now, will that be possible in the future? Apple Arcade has plenty of room to grow and the variety of hardware that ANY game from the service can be played on is pretty unique in gaming. 
    edited May 2020 watto_cobra
  • Reply 24 of 78
    apple ][apple ][ Posts: 9,233member
    Personally speaking, I couldn't care less.  Gaming on Mac has never been better in my experience.

    I've been using Geforce Now for years and most recently I've been testing out Google Stadia. I also game quite a bit on my iPad, though that is a slightly different category of games than desktop of course. I also have Apple arcade at the moment, though that is also a slightly different category of games than most desktop games. It's mostly geared towards kids.

    Even though I'm not exactly a huge fan of many things Google (Android, etc.), I have to say that Stadia is working really well.

    Zero install time for games and games launch immediately and the quality is quite good. I bought a PS 4 controller recently and it works well across all of my Apple devices. Apple made a smart move integrating the PS4 controller and Xbox controller into the Apple world. I now have access to a whole world of PC games that were a pain in the ass and problematic to play before. Now, it's easy and smooth to play, with zero hassles.

    VR doesn't seem like it's ready for primetime yet. I'm not interested in VR at all at the moment, based on what's out there. Maybe in some years from now. And maybe Apple will have their own VR solutions eventually, when it's actually mature and good and impressive and the price is right. I can't say that's the case today, based on what I've seen.
    edited May 2020
  • Reply 25 of 78
    macxpress said:
    PDRPRTS said:
    Been having this feeling that the new ARM Mac is the beginning of the end of the Mac as we know it and this story kind of settles it - for me - as the only way this news isnt an absolute disaster. Im thinking the new Mac is not a Mac at all. The new ARM Macs may actually be iPad-laptops gradually dropping the Mac-as-we-know-it - meaning the 'macOS'. As soon as Apple guarantees major software franchises on a new 'MacPad', it has no reason to evolve the macOS layer of OS X. What we now know as Mac may be about to go the "System 9" way (Catalina does feel as clunky as System 8). Apple would be dropping a lot, but it has dropped optical-drives, audio-jacks, Motorola, IBM, beige, etc before.. each deemed as crazy as impossible at the time.. but that is Apple - it would be dropping the mouse-based GUI !! it helped champion all these years.

    Yes just like the switch to Intel was the beginning of the end of the Mac as we know it...and the switch to PPC, and from macOS 9 to macOS X, etc, etc. Every time Apple makes a major change its the beginning of the end isn't it?
    hello, not the end of the mac @macxpress, just the end of our current way of interfacing with computers - which for me hasnt happened like this since the Apple II times. of course i cant know for sure, but at this point i would bet heavily on iOS becoming the new "Mac". i was here for the Apple II to the Mac transition, then to the PowerPC, to Intel, (also from the Newton to the abyss), so i can assure you that im not predicting the end of the Mac at all, quite on the contrary: - i believe this may be the step that definitely leaves all the current competition behind for a long while, out of sheer impossibility to imitate. Final Cut and Logic are apparently getting ready for iOS, when Ableton jumps in i will not hesitate.

    slurpy said:

    Every single line of your post is insane. But the "Catalina feels as clunky as System 8" takes the absolute cake. Good job. Anyway, Steam VR is a niche within a niche. The people who used this on a mac are statistically negligible. This story does not "mean" anything, and no conclusions can be drawn from it. 
    dude this has zero to do with gaming or Steam. it is just logic. if Valve is exiting the Mac platform, this means that it sees no future for VR on the Mac, something which the Oculus guy so blatantly declared earlier too. thing is, Apple is obviously on the forefront of VR at least in planning, as what is necessary for VR is implied in AR and Apple is huge in AR, from Project Titan cars to the new iPad sensors, so that can only mean - for me - one thing.. that the transition to the new Apple form that Steve Jobs reiterated as essential countless times has already happened. and it will not be on the Mac. even it maintains the name Mac, which for marketing can work but also may not given Apple's track record. if you love Apple you know that it was built on insanity, and it has changed the world this way through the Apple I and II, Mac, iPhone, iPad, iWatch, and for me the circle may now be complete for the Mac. oh and by the way reading your comment i think you are right on one thing.. Catalina isnt like System 8, it is worse by a mile and if you work in AV production you would know what im talking about. it is absolutely unacceptable, especially if you take into account how difficult they have made it to downgrade.

  • Reply 26 of 78
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 23,165member
    slurpy said:
    PDRPRTS said:
    Been having this feeling that the new ARM Mac is the beginning of the end of the Mac as we know it and this story kind of settles it - for me - as the only way this news isnt an absolute disaster. Im thinking the new Mac is not a Mac at all. The new ARM Macs may actually be iPad-laptops gradually dropping the Mac-as-we-know-it - meaning the 'macOS'. As soon as Apple guarantees major software franchises on a new 'MacPad', it has no reason to evolve the macOS layer of OS X. What we now know as Mac may be about to go the "System 9" way (Catalina does feel as clunky as System 8). Apple would be dropping a lot, but it has dropped optical-drives, audio-jacks, Motorola, IBM, beige, etc before.. each deemed as crazy as impossible at the time.. but that is Apple - it would be dropping the mouse-based GUI !! it helped champion all these years.
    ...,Steam VR is a niche within a niche. The people who used this on a mac are statistically negligible. This story does not "mean" anything, and no conclusions can be drawn from it.
    Agreed. 
    edited May 2020 razorpit
  • Reply 27 of 78
    BeatsBeats Posts: 2,526member
    Not good news. 

    All Apple needs to do is create their own platform and COMPLETELY annihilate Valve. Apple are being pu**ies though with their weak gaming push.
  • Reply 28 of 78
    PDRPRTS said:
    macxpress said:
    PDRPRTS said:
    Been having this feeling that the new ARM Mac is the beginning of the end of the Mac as we know it and this story kind of settles it - for me - as the only way this news isnt an absolute disaster. Im thinking the new Mac is not a Mac at all. The new ARM Macs may actually be iPad-laptops gradually dropping the Mac-as-we-know-it - meaning the 'macOS'. As soon as Apple guarantees major software franchises on a new 'MacPad', it has no reason to evolve the macOS layer of OS X. What we now know as Mac may be about to go the "System 9" way (Catalina does feel as clunky as System 8). Apple would be dropping a lot, but it has dropped optical-drives, audio-jacks, Motorola, IBM, beige, etc before.. each deemed as crazy as impossible at the time.. but that is Apple - it would be dropping the mouse-based GUI !! it helped champion all these years.

    Yes just like the switch to Intel was the beginning of the end of the Mac as we know it...and the switch to PPC, and from macOS 9 to macOS X, etc, etc. Every time Apple makes a major change its the beginning of the end isn't it?
    hello, not the end of the mac @macxpress, just the end of our current way of interfacing with computers - which for me hasnt happened like this since the Apple II times. of course i cant know for sure, but at this point i would bet heavily on iOS becoming the new "Mac". i was here for the Apple II to the Mac transition, then to the PowerPC, to Intel, (also from the Newton to the abyss), so i can assure you that im not predicting the end of the Mac at all, quite on the contrary: - i believe this may be the step that definitely leaves all the current competition behind for a long while, out of sheer impossibility to imitate. Final Cut and Logic are apparently getting ready for iOS, when Ableton jumps in i will not hesitate.

    slurpy said:

    Every single line of your post is insane. But the "Catalina feels as clunky as System 8" takes the absolute cake. Good job. Anyway, Steam VR is a niche within a niche. The people who used this on a mac are statistically negligible. This story does not "mean" anything, and no conclusions can be drawn from it. 
    dude this has zero to do with gaming or Steam. it is just logic. if Valve is exiting the Mac platform, this means that it sees no future for VR on the Mac, something which the Oculus guy so blatantly declared earlier too. thing is, Apple is obviously on the forefront of VR at least in planning, as what is necessary for VR is implied in AR and Apple is huge in AR, from Project Titan cars to the new iPad sensors, so that can only mean - for me - one thing.. that the transition to the new Apple form that Steve Jobs reiterated as essential countless times has already happened. and it will not be on the Mac. even it maintains the name Mac, which for marketing can work but also may not given Apple's track record. if you love Apple you know that it was built on insanity, and it has changed the world this way through the Apple I and II, Mac, iPhone, iPad, iWatch, and for me the circle may now be complete for the Mac. oh and by the way reading your comment i think you are right on one thing.. Catalina isnt like System 8, it is worse by a mile and if you work in AV production you would know what im talking about. it is absolutely unacceptable, especially if you take into account how difficult they have made it to downgrade.

    OK, so you think "the Mac-as-we-know-it" will change. That's probably inevitable, whether by evolution or revolution. Then maybe you have some other points in there, but when you say Catalina is worse than System 8, you lose all credibility. I'm not saying you have to like it, but come on!

    What are you doing in AV production that makes Catalina "unacceptable?" Relying on 32-bit apps or plug-ins maybe? Enlighten us!

    And so far as downgrade, did you research the implications of Catalina to your workflow before the upgrade? And did you do a Time Machine back-up before the upgrade? That would have made it easier to "downgrade" wouldn't it? 

    PS: you can download Mojave from the App Store : https://apps.apple.com/ph/app/macos-mojave/id1398502828?mt=12
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 29 of 78
    PDRPRTS said:
    macxpress said:
    PDRPRTS said:
    Been having this feeling that the new ARM Mac is the beginning of the end of the Mac as we know it and this story kind of settles it - for me - as the only way this news isnt an absolute disaster. Im thinking the new Mac is not a Mac at all. The new ARM Macs may actually be iPad-laptops gradually dropping the Mac-as-we-know-it - meaning the 'macOS'. As soon as Apple guarantees major software franchises on a new 'MacPad', it has no reason to evolve the macOS layer of OS X. What we now know as Mac may be about to go the "System 9" way (Catalina does feel as clunky as System 8). Apple would be dropping a lot, but it has dropped optical-drives, audio-jacks, Motorola, IBM, beige, etc before.. each deemed as crazy as impossible at the time.. but that is Apple - it would be dropping the mouse-based GUI !! it helped champion all these years.

    Yes just like the switch to Intel was the beginning of the end of the Mac as we know it...and the switch to PPC, and from macOS 9 to macOS X, etc, etc. Every time Apple makes a major change its the beginning of the end isn't it?
    hello, not the end of the mac @macxpress, just the end of our current way of interfacing with computers - which for me hasnt happened like this since the Apple II times. of course i cant know for sure, but at this point i would bet heavily on iOS becoming the new "Mac". i was here for the Apple II to the Mac transition, then to the PowerPC, to Intel, (also from the Newton to the abyss), so i can assure you that im not predicting the end of the Mac at all, quite on the contrary: - i believe this may be the step that definitely leaves all the current competition behind for a long while, out of sheer impossibility to imitate. Final Cut and Logic are apparently getting ready for iOS, when Ableton jumps in i will not hesitate.

    slurpy said:

    Every single line of your post is insane. But the "Catalina feels as clunky as System 8" takes the absolute cake. Good job. Anyway, Steam VR is a niche within a niche. The people who used this on a mac are statistically negligible. This story does not "mean" anything, and no conclusions can be drawn from it. 
    dude this has zero to do with gaming or Steam. it is just logic. if Valve is exiting the Mac platform, this means that it sees no future for VR on the Mac, something which the Oculus guy so blatantly declared earlier too. thing is, Apple is obviously on the forefront of VR at least in planning, as what is necessary for VR is implied in AR and Apple is huge in AR, from Project Titan cars to the new iPad sensors, so that can only mean - for me - one thing.. that the transition to the new Apple form that Steve Jobs reiterated as essential countless times has already happened. and it will not be on the Mac. even it maintains the name Mac, which for marketing can work but also may not given Apple's track record. if you love Apple you know that it was built on insanity, and it has changed the world this way through the Apple I and II, Mac, iPhone, iPad, iWatch, and for me the circle may now be complete for the Mac. oh and by the way reading your comment i think you are right on one thing.. Catalina isnt like System 8, it is worse by a mile and if you work in AV production you would know what im talking about. it is absolutely unacceptable, especially if you take into account how difficult they have made it to downgrade.

    OK, so you think "the Mac-as-we-know-it" will change. That's probably inevitable, whether by evolution or revolution. Then maybe you have some other points in there, but when you say Catalina is worse than System 8, you lose all credibility. I'm not saying you have to like it, but come on!

    What are you doing in AV production that makes Catalina "unacceptable?" Relying on 32-bit apps or plug-ins maybe? Enlighten us!

    And so far as downgrade, did you research the implications of Catalina to your workflow before the upgrade? And did you do a Time Machine back-up before the upgrade? That would have made it easier to "downgrade" wouldn't it? 

    PS: you can download Mojave from the App Store : https://apps.apple.com/ph/app/macos-mojave/id1398502828?mt=12
    hi @roundaboutnow i did neglect to say i do appreciate some things in Catalina. i do like it when it works, and i find it beautiful and elegant. i have it installed in this 2012 MBP and find it amazing how it produces the highest benchmark scores it ever saw. fans tend to kick in a lot and this is an issue in recording  situations but to focus on the positive i can share that it has the best iOS integration ever for me - that is why i have it and also because i couldnt restore my library to Mojave after a week trying. it works really well for lots of stuff but, professionally it was an absolute disaster.

    to  answer your question, it destroyed previously thriving set ups on eGPUs in two machines (still unfixed), broke access to RAID arrays with no indication of when this will be solved, lots of 64-bit software stopped working with some companies still unable to put out versions that work, others putting crazy workarounds for pro set ups, and others still outright declaring they will not support Catalina. just check production forums, there is really a lot going on. this wasnt an incremental update, like the final pre-OSX systems, it is obviously made to support compatibility with iOS at the expense of the current mac user base. not to mention the whole 32-bit system thing that strictly from the Mac point of view would be very easy to support with no loss whatsoever in system performance.. 32-bit has to be actively turned off which only makes sense from an ARM perspective, and isnt actually needed now (there is an ex-Apple engineer that nearly gave me a heart attack explaining this on youtube). lots of Studios had to pay technicians (not to mention hassle and downtime) to downgrade because, unlike expectable it is hard to even create a Mojave install disk  - thx for the link but it is impossible to download 10.14 on a 10.15 machine - Catalina deletes it when the download ends. i am lucky to have another machine to do this but many arent. if you do manage to downgrade, you will notice that Catalina rendered your TimeMachine backup unusable to Mojave, for which there are hacks but again not for non-tech-minded users. if you were checking it for too long your photos library is gone and unable to downgrade for good, nor can you manage libraries, all of this being technically possible since Aperture but purposely made near-impossible unless you purchase iCloud space. other minor issues like the constant update badge reminder when all is up to date, the unsolicited activation of transferring local files to the cloud by default, etc.. and not so minor like having to upgrade lots of software, which is understandable in a way but still hard to believe how it is made to sound like it is a feature upgrade that companies had all the time to prepare for, when in reality in many cases it means rewriting apps nearly from scratch. again this only makes sense in the perspective of trying to salvage what is possible from the MacOS to integrate it in the likely new iOS "Mac"  times, and not the other way around i think.. i really believe the Mac is dead before the end of the decade, though i believe Apple will now become stronger than ever on iOS.
  • Reply 30 of 78
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,668member
    elijahg said:
    elijahg said:
    I've said this before, but all this closed source incompatibility is chillingly reminiscent of Apple of the mid-90's and Microsoft in the late 90's and into the Ballmer years. Since Sat Nad has taken over, MS have had a much more open approach and they are being lauded for it, with respect for MS steadily increasing. Apple on the other hand is going backwards compared to the huge amount of open-sourcing and increased compatibility after Jobs' return in the early years of OS X, causing respect to decrease. It really is quite concerning.
    Jobs as champion of open systems? Interesting way to rewrite history. 

    Sorry but no, while Apple has at times leveraged and contributed to open source projects, it has never been about open systems. The very nature of Mac and the ecosystem is a walled garden. That hasn’t changed.
    Considering he open sourced pretty much all the APIs on NextStep to become OpenStep, looks like you might need to gen up on your history a bit. Oh and what about Webkit? What about Bonjour? What about CUPS? Swift? IOKit? What about contributions to Apache? To OpenSSL? To Autoconf? To Samba? To X11? LLVM? BSD? Clang? OpenGL? Might as well get your head out of Apple's ass at the same time. Walled garden doesn't mean you have to use incompatible standards and APIs. Look where that got Apple in the 90's.
    Correct. And anyway the Mac isn't a walled garden. You can literally download apps from anywhere, compile any unix compatible program, make is a server, and so on. Its as open as any unix system. 
    jdb8167fastasleep
  • Reply 31 of 78
    canukstormcanukstorm Posts: 2,532member
    elijahg said:
    elijahg said:
    I've said this before, but all this closed source incompatibility is chillingly reminiscent of Apple of the mid-90's and Microsoft in the late 90's and into the Ballmer years. Since Sat Nad has taken over, MS have had a much more open approach and they are being lauded for it, with respect for MS steadily increasing. Apple on the other hand is going backwards compared to the huge amount of open-sourcing and increased compatibility after Jobs' return in the early years of OS X, causing respect to decrease. It really is quite concerning.
    Jobs as champion of open systems? Interesting way to rewrite history. 

    Sorry but no, while Apple has at times leveraged and contributed to open source projects, it has never been about open systems. The very nature of Mac and the ecosystem is a walled garden. That hasn’t changed.
    Considering he open sourced pretty much all the APIs on NextStep to become OpenStep, looks like you might need to gen up on your history a bit. Oh and what about Webkit? What about Bonjour? What about CUPS? Swift? IOKit? What about contributions to Apache? To OpenSSL? To Autoconf? To Samba? To X11? LLVM? BSD? Clang? OpenGL? Might as well get your head out of Apple's ass at the same time. Walled garden doesn't mean you have to use incompatible standards and APIs. Look where that got Apple in the 90's.
    You forgot Darwin, which is the kernel that is the foundation of all of their operating systems.
    ElCapitandarkvader
  • Reply 32 of 78
    canukstormcanukstorm Posts: 2,532member
    elijahg said:


    Probably nothing to do with the fact that Apple "deprecated" OpenGL and Vulcan while forcibly preventing NVIDIA from releasing compatible Mac drivers.
    Conjecture and rumor. No one on this forum knows what’s up between Apple and Nvidia for certain. 
    Since Nvidia have publicly stated they're waiting on Apple to sign the drivers, there's not much conjecture. Apple isn't perfect, but wo betide any Apple supplier that doesn't lick the ground Apple management walks on or they'll unceremoniously get the boot. Yet another example of Apple putting its internal politics above their customers. I have a 2019 iMac with a Vega Pro 48. It gets smoked by the much older Radeon 1080Ti. But due to Apple's ridiculous spat with Nvidia, we're all stuck on crap AMD cards. 

    Eventually Apple will fall out with AMD as they have done in the past, then go cap in hand to Nvidia for a GPU. Or do as they did during the last big spat 7 or 8 years ago and have Intel integrated everywhere. That was wonderful.
    It wasn't exactly a ridiculous spat.  Apple's beef with Nvidia goes back to the time that Macs were using Nvidia GPU's and the machines were overheating and becoming damaged from a direct result of lousy Nvidia GPU's.  That's why Apple transitioned away from them and never looked back.  My hunch says Apple will do the same to Intel with the rumored transition to ARM Macs.
    StrangeDaysrazorpitdysamoriawatto_cobra
  • Reply 33 of 78
    canukstormcanukstorm Posts: 2,532member
    canukstorm said: That may be true with respect to macOS but iOS is the largest mobile gaming platform.  It's doing really well.
    Apple Arcade is going to help macOS gaming. It's definitely effective at getting people who rarely gamed on their Mac or TV with Apple to do so now. It's just not going to be the PC port type of gaming from the past. I think Apple knew from experience that relying on PC ports to get people interested was a dead-end. The smaller market size for sales meant ports were typically sub-standard quality in terms of the optimization, came out much later than the PC versions, and made the overall selection very limited. Apple Arcade has eliminated all of those problems by focusing on original titles that are specifically prioritized for Apple hardware and operating systems.
    I genuinely hope you're right.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 34 of 78
    canukstormcanukstorm Posts: 2,532member
    elijahg said: True, but then Apple Arcade has what, 120 games - almost all of which are just blown up mobile-quality kid's games without ads, with the odd exception, whereas Steam has many thousands of full-featured titles. Seems the popular Apple Arcade games don't ever get meaningful updates either. 
    The "thousands" of games for PC-centric Steam are a mirage for macOS. Most of the ports would never materialize, regardless of what GPUs Apple put into their hardware. Focusing on original content is a better strategy, and although people can shrug it off as simply "mobile kids games" now, will that be possible in the future? Apple Arcade has plenty of room to grow and the variety of hardware that ANY game from the service can be played on is pretty unique in gaming. 
    Very similar to what Apple is doing with their ATV+ strategy
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 35 of 78
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 11,565member
    elijahg said:
    elijahg said:
    I've said this before, but all this closed source incompatibility is chillingly reminiscent of Apple of the mid-90's and Microsoft in the late 90's and into the Ballmer years. Since Sat Nad has taken over, MS have had a much more open approach and they are being lauded for it, with respect for MS steadily increasing. Apple on the other hand is going backwards compared to the huge amount of open-sourcing and increased compatibility after Jobs' return in the early years of OS X, causing respect to decrease. It really is quite concerning.
    Jobs as champion of open systems? Interesting way to rewrite history. 

    Sorry but no, while Apple has at times leveraged and contributed to open source projects, it has never been about open systems. The very nature of Mac and the ecosystem is a walled garden. That hasn’t changed.
    Considering he open sourced pretty much all the APIs on NextStep to become OpenStep, looks like you might need to gen up on your history a bit. Oh and what about Webkit? What about Bonjour? What about CUPS? Swift? IOKit? What about contributions to Apache? To OpenSSL? To Autoconf? To Samba? To X11? LLVM? BSD? Clang? OpenGL? Might as well get your head out of Apple's ass at the same time. Walled garden doesn't mean you have to use incompatible standards and APIs. Look where that got Apple in the 90's.
    Perhaps you had trouble reading my post. Apple has "leveraged and contributed to open source projects", but has never been about the purist ideology behind "but open!"

    Also, you sound like a complete dumbshit when you claim my head is up Apple's ass. What are you, 13? Get a job and stop your butthurt whining.
    edited May 2020 watto_cobra
  • Reply 36 of 78
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 11,565member

    elijahg said:


    Probably nothing to do with the fact that Apple "deprecated" OpenGL and Vulcan while forcibly preventing NVIDIA from releasing compatible Mac drivers.
    Conjecture and rumor. No one on this forum knows what’s up between Apple and Nvidia for certain. 
    Since Nvidia have publicly stated they're waiting on Apple to sign the drivers, there's not much conjecture. 
    Share the link, son. Also share the link from Apple's perspective if they have any grievances with Nvidia that we are completely ignorant about. Because we are, no matter what your Nvidia fanboy black & white views of the world may be.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 37 of 78
    elijahgelijahg Posts: 2,311member
    asdasd said:
    elijahg said:
    elijahg said:
    I've said this before, but all this closed source incompatibility is chillingly reminiscent of Apple of the mid-90's and Microsoft in the late 90's and into the Ballmer years. Since Sat Nad has taken over, MS have had a much more open approach and they are being lauded for it, with respect for MS steadily increasing. Apple on the other hand is going backwards compared to the huge amount of open-sourcing and increased compatibility after Jobs' return in the early years of OS X, causing respect to decrease. It really is quite concerning.
    Jobs as champion of open systems? Interesting way to rewrite history. 

    Sorry but no, while Apple has at times leveraged and contributed to open source projects, it has never been about open systems. The very nature of Mac and the ecosystem is a walled garden. That hasn’t changed.
    Considering he open sourced pretty much all the APIs on NextStep to become OpenStep, looks like you might need to gen up on your history a bit. Oh and what about Webkit? What about Bonjour? What about CUPS? Swift? IOKit? What about contributions to Apache? To OpenSSL? To Autoconf? To Samba? To X11? LLVM? BSD? Clang? OpenGL? Might as well get your head out of Apple's ass at the same time. Walled garden doesn't mean you have to use incompatible standards and APIs. Look where that got Apple in the 90's.
    Correct. And anyway the Mac isn't a walled garden. You can literally download apps from anywhere, compile any unix compatible program, make is a server, and so on. Its as open as any unix system. 
    I didn't claim it was, Strangedays did.
    ElCapitangatorguy
  • Reply 38 of 78
    elijahgelijahg Posts: 2,311member

    elijahg said:
    elijahg said:
    I've said this before, but all this closed source incompatibility is chillingly reminiscent of Apple of the mid-90's and Microsoft in the late 90's and into the Ballmer years. Since Sat Nad has taken over, MS have had a much more open approach and they are being lauded for it, with respect for MS steadily increasing. Apple on the other hand is going backwards compared to the huge amount of open-sourcing and increased compatibility after Jobs' return in the early years of OS X, causing respect to decrease. It really is quite concerning.
    Jobs as champion of open systems? Interesting way to rewrite history. 

    Sorry but no, while Apple has at times leveraged and contributed to open source projects, it has never been about open systems. The very nature of Mac and the ecosystem is a walled garden. That hasn’t changed.
    Considering he open sourced pretty much all the APIs on NextStep to become OpenStep, looks like you might need to gen up on your history a bit. Oh and what about Webkit? What about Bonjour? What about CUPS? Swift? IOKit? What about contributions to Apache? To OpenSSL? To Autoconf? To Samba? To X11? LLVM? BSD? Clang? OpenGL? Might as well get your head out of Apple's ass at the same time. Walled garden doesn't mean you have to use incompatible standards and APIs. Look where that got Apple in the 90's.
    You forgot Darwin, which is the kernel that is the foundation of all of their operating systems.
    Darwin isn't a kernel. Darwin is the Unix subsystem underlying i/iPad/tv/watch/macOS. But yes, it is open source. Mach is the actual kernel, which is also open source. But I'm just nitpicking - the point was Apple since Jobs redux has been quite open, but that openness is gradually becoming less.
    edited May 2020 ElCapitanasdasddarkvader
  • Reply 39 of 78
    elijahgelijahg Posts: 2,311member

    elijahg said:


    Probably nothing to do with the fact that Apple "deprecated" OpenGL and Vulcan while forcibly preventing NVIDIA from releasing compatible Mac drivers.
    Conjecture and rumor. No one on this forum knows what’s up between Apple and Nvidia for certain. 
    Since Nvidia have publicly stated they're waiting on Apple to sign the drivers, there's not much conjecture. Apple isn't perfect, but wo betide any Apple supplier that doesn't lick the ground Apple management walks on or they'll unceremoniously get the boot. Yet another example of Apple putting its internal politics above their customers. I have a 2019 iMac with a Vega Pro 48. It gets smoked by the much older Radeon 1080Ti. But due to Apple's ridiculous spat with Nvidia, we're all stuck on crap AMD cards. 

    Eventually Apple will fall out with AMD as they have done in the past, then go cap in hand to Nvidia for a GPU. Or do as they did during the last big spat 7 or 8 years ago and have Intel integrated everywhere. That was wonderful.
    It wasn't exactly a ridiculous spat.  Apple's beef with Nvidia goes back to the time that Macs were using Nvidia GPU's and the machines were overheating and becoming damaged from a direct result of lousy Nvidia GPU's.  That's why Apple transitioned away from them and never looked back.  My hunch says Apple will do the same to Intel with the rumored transition to ARM Macs.
    It wasn't really Nvidia's fault, though. The heat generated inside MacBooks (which aren't exactly known for running cool) was exacerbating the issue, but the core problem was actually cracked lead-free solder joints. At the time there were thousands and thousands of devices ending up in landfill because of bad solder joints. No one know it was going to be an issue, Nvidia sold Apple those GPUs under good faith that they would be reliable. There was nothing Nvidia did to reduce the reliability of those GPUs. The people to really blame for that particular issue were the EU, their eco-policy of lead-free solder actually increased the number of items going to landfill many times over. And in any case, Nvidia compensated Apple for their losses. 

    Apple fell out with ATI a few years before, they leaked a new PowerBook, and Apple avoided ATI chips for years afterwards. It's ridiculously petty.
    ElCapitandarkvader
  • Reply 40 of 78
    elijahgelijahg Posts: 2,311member
    elijahg said:
    elijahg said:
    I've said this before, but all this closed source incompatibility is chillingly reminiscent of Apple of the mid-90's and Microsoft in the late 90's and into the Ballmer years. Since Sat Nad has taken over, MS have had a much more open approach and they are being lauded for it, with respect for MS steadily increasing. Apple on the other hand is going backwards compared to the huge amount of open-sourcing and increased compatibility after Jobs' return in the early years of OS X, causing respect to decrease. It really is quite concerning.
    Jobs as champion of open systems? Interesting way to rewrite history. 

    Sorry but no, while Apple has at times leveraged and contributed to open source projects, it has never been about open systems. The very nature of Mac and the ecosystem is a walled garden. That hasn’t changed.
    Considering he open sourced pretty much all the APIs on NextStep to become OpenStep, looks like you might need to gen up on your history a bit. Oh and what about Webkit? What about Bonjour? What about CUPS? Swift? IOKit? What about contributions to Apache? To OpenSSL? To Autoconf? To Samba? To X11? LLVM? BSD? Clang? OpenGL? Might as well get your head out of Apple's ass at the same time. Walled garden doesn't mean you have to use incompatible standards and APIs. Look where that got Apple in the 90's.
    Perhaps you had trouble reading my post. Apple has "leveraged and contributed to open source projects", but has never been about the purist ideology behind "but open!"

    Also, you sound like a complete dumbshit when you claim my head is up Apple's ass. What are you, 13? Get a job and stop your butthurt whining.
    Where did I claim Apple had been about a purist ideology? There's a huge difference between purist open-source software and open standards for compatibility. My point was Apple's products became more compatible when Jobs returned compared to before. Both at the hardware level and software. Remember ADB? Remember SCSI? Those and many other old technologies went with the iMac, and so Macs gradually became more compatible with the wider world. 

    My obsessive friend, the only "dumbshit" here is you who is well known for defending Apple down to every last possible decision. Every time anyone has a problem you've never seen it so it must be something they're doing. You've never ever had any issue with Apple gear ever, apparently. Your words aren't worth the bits they're sent by because you're as much a troll as the Android fanatics who frequent this forum. You don't discuss, you just attack people you don't agree with like an angry wasp. If Apple removed every feature of the Mac and replaced it with a $2999 box adorned with a single flashing LED you'd say it was wonderful and everyone else was a "hater". Grow up and get some perspective. Apple isn't going to go bust because you didn't defend something.
    edited May 2020 ElCapitanavon b7ctt_zhgatorguydarkvader
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