So clearly it's possible to create a thin and light laptop with a dGPU. A lower power dGPU like the MX250 or MX350 could also be used.
Customers of some gaming laptops should bear in mind that performance while plugged in and unplugged are different. It's not uncommon for a high performance dGPU in laptop to be restricted to 1/3rd its performance while unplugged. There's always a cost.
That's not the case with the Razer's dGPU at all.
Some benchmarks:
Battlefield V (ultra)
Plugged in - 40 fps Battery - 38 fps
Overwatch (epic)
Plugged in - 68 fps Battery - 65 fps
Shadow of the Tomb Raider (highest)
Plugged in - 33 fps Battery - 31 fps
Again, a dGPU in a 13" laptop can be done without completely ruining the form factor.
Are these with the MX150 or the GTX1650? The MX150 isn't much better, if at all, than Ice Lake G7 graphics, and MX GPUs typically aren't down-clocked while unplugged. Don't know the power usage of the GTX1650. If it is running at 50 to 100 W there will be a consequence to that. If it is running at 25 to 50 W, it's going to squeak by.
GTX 1650 Max-Q 4 GB
Power numbers?
35 W
That's a good number for a thin and light, and around 2x bigger than a MX250 I think, and low enough not downclock while unplugged. There will be consequences in battery life, as you will pay for it when running anything that is using the CPU and GPU at the same time. A 25W CPU and a 35W GPU will run through a 60 WHr battery in about 1 to 2 hrs, like doing a multi-stream 4K encode.
Apple doesn't think it is worth it. Razer (or MSI, or whoever) does. They are designing laptops for different purposes though.
What a Horrible, Terrible, No good for nothing, disappointing, mess of a Laptop. Not even worthy of the title MacBook Pro. More like uh, MacBook-NO!! Pass on this one if you are any ounce of smart. If you call yourself any-bit of truly a Mac/Apple fan, you will demand more from this company. You are in a way being played by them, holding back the tech they know they can deliver. Do the right thing, you deserve it, demand MORE!!!
Wut?
- YES.
What you said is unintelligible. These new MBPs are solid machines. They fixed some things, added some things, and basically did what Apple does best — refine. I don’t hesitate for a second to recommend and would buy another myself if I needed one.
Configurations start at $1299 with an eighth-generation i5 1.4GHz quad-core processor with Turbo Boost speed up to 3.9GHz, 8GB of RAM, and 256GB of storage, and an eighth-generation i7 model is available as well. A 2.0Ghz quad-core tenth-generation i7 model with turbo speeds up to 3.8GHz, 16GB of RAM, and 512GB of storage retails for $1799.
According to the Apple website, the $1799 model is a 10th-gen i5, not an i7.
*Cough* Have much experience with looking at Apple online Store "Buy" pages? Click the blue "Select" button on the rightmost config (the model with the 2.0 GHz, quad-core 10th-gen i5 standard) and lo and behold, there's an option for a 2.3 GHz, quad-core 10th-gen i7 for (depending on your version of the Store) $200 or a bit less.
"Cough"...Read much? I didn't say they didn't offer an i7 UPGRADE, the article says the i7 version with 16GB RAM and 512GB SSD is $1799. It's not. It's $1999 (math...$1799 + $200 = $1999).
Before you dish out criticism you should really fact check first.
Leave it to Apple to half-do something. Why still have 8th-gen chips in 2 of the 3 base configs? Why not have 10th-gen chips in all the new configs? 8th-gen is slowly fading off the horizon, yet you have to spend $1800 just to get an i5 10th-gen chip? One can buy a Dell laptop with a 10th-gen i5 for $500. It's hardly "premium" (by PC/Windows standards, anyways).
A 10th-gen i5-based MBP13 with 256GB SSD and 8GB RAM for $1299 would have been a natural upgrade.
I suspect cost was the biggest reason. Most people don't care about the generation of CPU anyways and if they did they'd get the 16" version. People will buy the 13" regardless. This is essentially a non-issue.
100% disagree. Do you have some poll or facts to show that "most people" don't care what gen CPU is in their new Macbook Pro? I think the MBP crowd is pretty saavy and knows the difference between 8th gen and 10th-gen (at least to know one is 2 gens older!).
The point is, if Dell can stick a 10th gen i5 in a $500 laptop, why can't Apple stick one in a $1300 laptop?
So...they just swapped out the keyboard, LED screen and the CPU and memory! It probably took Apple engineer in charge about 1/2 hour to do and have it go to quality control. Will Apple give us a gold MacBook Pro color?
You obviously have no idea how much engineering goes into even "minor" changes.
In this case the updated MBP does not use the same keyboard and screen as the 16". They had to be designed from scratch for the smaller chassis. Then they were tested and then redesigned and retested to make sure they worked properly. As far as the CPU, that likely at least required fresh firmware, if not board level changes, either of which would have had to be designed, tested, adjusted to fix any unexpected problems, adjusted again, and so on. Even minor changes are a hell of a lot of work by a team that put in a lot of hours to make it work right. In some ways it's harder to update an existing product than it is to blue sky design a new product without any legacy constraints.
Which (when started in 2016-Q1) could have been accomplished in 2016-Q4. While a good idea, there isn’t anything “Magic” on mounting a decent keyboard on a laptop.
Never said there was. But the poster I was answering said it was essentially effortless. His exact words were “ It probably took Apple engineer in charge about 1/2 hour to do ” no, even seemingly minor changes in a deeply integrated system involve a lot of hard work. It took them a while, too long many would say, to accept that there was a problem. Then they had to design the keyboard. The one they designed was for the bigger MBP, so they had to also design a smaller version for this model. Even a company as big as Apple can’t creat things out of thin air.
Not sure where you’re getting the 2016-Q1 figure from. I suspect, though this is just a feeling from oll the revisions and “fixes” they tried, that they didn’t give up on the flawed keyboard design until late 2018.
You have to love the inconsistency of some people. They complain when Apple doesn’t update a Mac product. “Oh Apple, why can’t you at least do a spec bump.” Apple releases something less than a complete redesign but more than a spec bump and you get “What a Horrible, Terrible, No good for nothing, disappointing, mess of a Laptop.”
So which is it? Should Apple do spec bump updates when they don’t have a complete redesign ready or not?
The top of the line 13” MacBook Pro now have a new keyboard which the complainers where saying was an absolute necessity. That the old keyboard was completely unusable. They also have up to 32 GB of LPDDR4 RAM. Again, stated as an absolute requirement for any software development usage just a few months ago. You also get double the SSD storage bump for the same prices from yesterday. And most of all, the new 13” MacBook Pro now has the very latest 4-core 10th Generation Core i5 or i7. These CPUs are so new they aren’t even listed in Intel’s standard inventory app. They are absolutely the fastest 28W CPUs Intel makes. If these CPUs disappoint you, well you better hope for an ARM transition because Intel isn’t releasing anything better for a while.
No one living in the Mac Pro world gives a shit about the spec porn of some Windows gaming machine that’s also incidentally not as highly customer rated (see Amazon).
You have to love the inconsistency of some people. They complain when Apple doesn’t update a Mac product. “Oh Apple, why can’t you at least do a spec bump.” Apple releases something less than a complete redesign but more than a spec bump and you get “What a Horrible, Terrible, No good for nothing, disappointing, mess of a Laptop.”
So which is it? Should Apple do spec bump updates when they don’t have a complete redesign ready or not?
The top of the line 13” MacBook Pro now have a new keyboard which the complainers where saying was an absolute necessity. That the old keyboard was completely unusable. They also have up to 32 GB of LPDDR4 RAM. Again, stated as an absolute requirement for any software development usage just a few months ago. You also get double the SSD storage bump for the same prices from yesterday. And most of all, the new 13” MacBook Pro now has the very latest 4-core 10th Generation Core i5 or i7. These CPUs are so new they aren’t even listed in Intel’s standard inventory app. They are absolutely the fastest 28W CPUs Intel makes. If these CPUs disappoint you, well you better hope for an ARM transition because Intel isn’t releasing anything better for a while.
You mean only the most expensive MBP13 models have a 10th gen CPU. The base models still continue with an OLD 8th-gen CPU.
The $1299 MBP13 only has a new keyboard (unlike the previous that was a defective design) and double the SSD for the same price (which anyone will say Apple was ripping people off by offering such small SSD's, which are dirt cheap, in such expensive laptops in the first place). In effect, they are finally giving the consumer a decent size SSD comparable to literally every other computer manufacturer.
The fact that I have to spend $1800 to get a 10th-gen i5 in a MBP13 does not settle well with me.
You can buy an entire Intel WIFI6 adapter card for $20 on Amazon. How much do you think just the chip would cost Apple to stick on a system board?
A lot of people, myself included, are still running on "ac" vintage WiFi, and many of those who still run the much beloved AirPorts and TimeCapsules are still on "N" vintage WiFi. If I bought a new machine that supports WiFi 6 I would not derive any immediate benefit from it unless I also spend several hundred dollars upgrading my WiFi infrastructure with new APs, which I'm not inclined to do at this point.
I really don't know why Apple didn't move everything with new or updated silicon to WiFi 6 this year, but I'm sure there was a defensible rationale for sitting on "ac" for another cycle, just like they must have rationalized releasing iPhone 11 and the current round of iPads without 5G or half-baked-5G support like some other vendors have done. The lack of widespread adoption of WiFi 6 and 5G makes their decision reasonable and tolerable for the bulk of their customers today and for a couple more years, but of course they'll have to get with the program sooner rather than later.
As far as the cost of the new hardware is concerned, you may want to talk to a hardware engineer who actually designs high volume consumer or industrial products. You would be amazed, as I've always been, at how tightly monitored and scrutinized component costs are on the hardware side. Nickels and dimes matter. As consumers we don't have any real insight at all into the supplier side of component costing models that product manufacturers have to contend with. Then there is board layout, assembly, industrialization, and many layers of certification and compliance issues that have to be managed by the hardware engineers. There is nothing simple or trivial about hardware engineering, but fortunately those who do it particularly well have it down to finely crafted and tuned engineering process, a true science, that puts the best software development organization on the planet's process to shame.
For the people complaining about the 8th gen cpu, windows laptop that moved to 10th gen mobile cpu got a noticeable price increase compared to their predecessors, so the base model would have been more expensive. And you can also thank intel for not discounting the price of their older gen cpu.
A few hardware shop still got a few 5/6/7th gen Intel cpu being sold as their day one price. Look at this 10 Core cpu from 2016 still being sold for nearly 2K. So yhea, Apple offering more storage for the same price is pretty generous.
As for the gpu, AMD doesn't make energy efficient gpu, apple is pretty much the only brand using amd gpu in high end machine, so I doubt that the macbook 13 could get a gpu noticeably faster than intel igp with all the thermals constraints.
It is however surprising that the 10th gen 13" doesn't wifi 6, according to intel it's a standard since it's integrated in the chipset...
You have to love the inconsistency of some people. They complain when Apple doesn’t update a Mac product. “Oh Apple, why can’t you at least do a spec bump.” Apple releases something less than a complete redesign but more than a spec bump and you get “What a Horrible, Terrible, No good for nothing, disappointing, mess of a Laptop.”
So which is it? Should Apple do spec bump updates when they don’t have a complete redesign ready or not?
The top of the line 13” MacBook Pro now have a new keyboard which the complainers where saying was an absolute necessity. That the old keyboard was completely unusable. They also have up to 32 GB of LPDDR4 RAM. Again, stated as an absolute requirement for any software development usage just a few months ago. You also get double the SSD storage bump for the same prices from yesterday. And most of all, the new 13” MacBook Pro now has the very latest 4-core 10th Generation Core i5 or i7. These CPUs are so new they aren’t even listed in Intel’s standard inventory app. They are absolutely the fastest 28W CPUs Intel makes. If these CPUs disappoint you, well you better hope for an ARM transition because Intel isn’t releasing anything better for a while.
You mean only the most expensive MBP13 models have a 10th gen CPU. The base models still continue with an OLD 8th-gen CPU.
The $1299 MBP13 only has a new keyboard (unlike the previous that was a defective design) and double the SSD for the same price (which anyone will say Apple was ripping people off by offering such small SSD's, which are dirt cheap, in such expensive laptops in the first place). In effect, they are finally giving the consumer a decent size SSD comparable to literally every other computer manufacturer.
The fact that I have to spend $1800 to get a 10th-gen i5 in a MBP13 does not settle well with me.
Yes, this is still Apple. They aren’t going to reduce their margins on a Mac laptop. To get the highest performing 13” MacBook Pro you are going to have to pay a premium. How is this different than any other MacBook Pro update?
The two TB port machines are not the flagships. They are there to fill out marketing requirements. For many people they will be fine but most people who are thinking of getting the 8th Gen version would probably be better off with a MacBook Air.
Hey TouchBar complainers, are the functions keys really that much more functional?
It seems a simple solution for those wanting dedicated function keys would be for Apple to have a setting/toggle on Touchbar MacBooks to select traditional dedicated function keys or fluid TouchBar. End of story. Unless of course Apple wants to force users into accepting fluid Touchbar only. Does such a toggle exist?
If these CPUs disappoint you, well you better hope for an ARM transition because Intel isn’t releasing anything better for a while.
I'm not sure why people pretend that AMD doesn't exist and ARM is the only solution.
AMD's 4800U is a 15W 8 core / 16 thread chip with excellent performance that easily beats out Intel's 25W 6 core / 12 thread 10710U. [graph removed]
What laptops use a 25-28W (or lower if the performance is better) AMD mobile CPU? What is the battery life? I can’t find anything talking about battery life tests and the Ryzen 4000 series. I’m not saying they don’t exist but are they being used by companies like HP, Lenovo and Dell? Customers who need a large and reliable quantity of CPUs to create a flagship. A flagship AMD CPU in the 1.5-1.7 cm (0.60” - 0.67”) thickness range and weighing about 1.4 kg (3 pounds) would be ideal as a comparison to the 13” MacBook Pro.
AMD might get there but they are just starting out being competitive in the mobile space for the first time. That makes it hard for a company needing millions of CPUs per quarter to design for AMD.
Edit: And I should mention that the Intel Core i7-10710U is a 14 nm part and only supports Intel UHD graphics which is not as strong as the Iris Plus. Not really a one to one comparison.
Comments
Apple doesn't think it is worth it. Razer (or MSI, or whoever) does. They are designing laptops for different purposes though.
Before you dish out criticism you should really fact check first.
The point is, if Dell can stick a 10th gen i5 in a $500 laptop, why can't Apple stick one in a $1300 laptop?
https://www.apple.com/shop/refurbished/mac/2018-macbook-pro
Intel has had WIFI6 since Q2 2019, and is included in many, many laptops as a standard feature. Where did you possibly get your information from?
https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/189347/intel-wi-fi-6-ax200.html
You can buy an entire Intel WIFI6 adapter card for $20 on Amazon. How much do you think just the chip would cost Apple to stick on a system board?
So which is it? Should Apple do spec bump updates when they don’t have a complete redesign ready or not?
The top of the line 13” MacBook Pro now have a new keyboard which the complainers where saying was an absolute necessity. That the old keyboard was completely unusable. They also have up to 32 GB of LPDDR4 RAM. Again, stated as an absolute requirement for any software development usage just a few months ago. You also get double the SSD storage bump for the same prices from yesterday. And most of all, the new 13” MacBook Pro now has the very latest 4-core 10th Generation Core i5 or i7. These CPUs are so new they aren’t even listed in Intel’s standard inventory app. They are absolutely the fastest 28W CPUs Intel makes. If these CPUs disappoint you, well you better hope for an ARM transition because Intel isn’t releasing anything better for a while.
AMD's 4800U is a 15W 8 core / 16 thread chip with excellent performance that easily beats out Intel's 25W 6 core / 12 thread 10710U.
The $1299 MBP13 only has a new keyboard (unlike the previous that was a defective design) and double the SSD for the same price (which anyone will say Apple was ripping people off by offering such small SSD's, which are dirt cheap, in such expensive laptops in the first place). In effect, they are finally giving the consumer a decent size SSD comparable to literally every other computer manufacturer.
The fact that I have to spend $1800 to get a 10th-gen i5 in a MBP13 does not settle well with me.
I really don't know why Apple didn't move everything with new or updated silicon to WiFi 6 this year, but I'm sure there was a defensible rationale for sitting on "ac" for another cycle, just like they must have rationalized releasing iPhone 11 and the current round of iPads without 5G or half-baked-5G support like some other vendors have done. The lack of widespread adoption of WiFi 6 and 5G makes their decision reasonable and tolerable for the bulk of their customers today and for a couple more years, but of course they'll have to get with the program sooner rather than later.
As far as the cost of the new hardware is concerned, you may want to talk to a hardware engineer who actually designs high volume consumer or industrial products. You would be amazed, as I've always been, at how tightly monitored and scrutinized component costs are on the hardware side. Nickels and dimes matter. As consumers we don't have any real insight at all into the supplier side of component costing models that product manufacturers have to contend with. Then there is board layout, assembly, industrialization, and many layers of certification and compliance issues that have to be managed by the hardware engineers. There is nothing simple or trivial about hardware engineering, but fortunately those who do it particularly well have it down to finely crafted and tuned engineering process, a true science, that puts the best software development organization on the planet's process to shame.
A few hardware shop still got a few 5/6/7th gen Intel cpu being sold as their day one price. Look at this 10 Core cpu from 2016 still being sold for nearly 2K. So yhea, Apple offering more storage for the same price is pretty generous.
As for the gpu, AMD doesn't make energy efficient gpu, apple is pretty much the only brand using amd gpu in high end machine, so I doubt that the macbook 13 could get a gpu noticeably faster than intel igp with all the thermals constraints.
It is however surprising that the 10th gen 13" doesn't wifi 6, according to intel it's a standard since it's integrated in the chipset...
The two TB port machines are not the flagships. They are there to fill out marketing requirements. For many people they will be fine but most people who are thinking of getting the 8th Gen version would probably be better off with a MacBook Air.
What laptops use a 25-28W (or lower if the performance is better) AMD mobile CPU? What is the battery life? I can’t find anything talking about battery life tests and the Ryzen 4000 series. I’m not saying they don’t exist but are they being used by companies like HP, Lenovo and Dell? Customers who need a large and reliable quantity of CPUs to create a flagship. A flagship AMD CPU in the 1.5-1.7 cm (0.60” - 0.67”) thickness range and weighing about 1.4 kg (3 pounds) would be ideal as a comparison to the 13” MacBook Pro.
AMD might get there but they are just starting out being competitive in the mobile space for the first time. That makes it hard for a company needing millions of CPUs per quarter to design for AMD.
Edit: And I should mention that the Intel Core i7-10710U is a 14 nm part and only supports Intel UHD graphics which is not as strong as the Iris Plus. Not really a one to one comparison.