France shames Apple for not sacrificing user privacy for COVID-19 app

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 67
    apple ][apple ][ Posts: 9,233member
    France, my favorite place.

    It's  one of the countries that is high up on my list of places that I will never, ever visit. I've been to many other places in Europe, but luckily, not France yet, nor ever.
    SpamSandwichwatto_cobra
  • Reply 42 of 67
    apple ][apple ][ Posts: 9,233member
    Their blocking the use of bluetooth for necessary apps will cost tens of thousands of lives.  

    Trump already has the blood of almost 70,000 on his hands.  Does Tim want the blood of that much and more on his hands?    When your mother, father, wife or child is dying this ideological argument for "privacy" tends to lose its appeal.
    Haha, what a bunch of crap.

    It's their choice.

    Apple and Tim will be in good company with Trump! The blood of many tens of thousands on their hands! LOL

    Can I join in the fun too? I'd love to have the blood of at least a few hundred or perhaps a thousand on my hands too! :#

    Seriously, that is quite an immature thought process, to go around assigning blame like you are. What a joke, LOL.


    edited May 2020 entropyswatto_cobra
  • Reply 43 of 67
    apple ][apple ][ Posts: 9,233member
    asdasd said:
    What is it with Americans and their hatred of other country’s economic systems. Most of the “socialist” countries in Europe have far fewer people in jail than the US. “Authoritarian” Sweden didn’t even have a lockdown.
    It's not just economic systems, it's their whole way of life and way of doing things. It's govt, it's beliefs, it's a lot more than just economic.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 44 of 67
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    bells said:
    He is quite right to shame Apple.   They should be ashamed.

    Their blocking the use of bluetooth for necessary apps will cost tens of thousands of lives. 

    Trump already has the blood of almost 70,000 on his hands.  Does Tim want the blood of that much and more on his hands?    When your mother, father, wife or child is dying this ideological argument for "privacy" tends to lose its appeal.
    Was it too difficult to read the whole article? Did you miss the part where Apple and Google created an API that France could have elected to use that would accomplish the same goal more effectively without compromising security?

    ....


    But it doesn't.   The Apple-Google thing does a half-ass job of contact tracing.   Actually, its so bad at it that they stopped even calling it that, because it doesn't.
  • Reply 45 of 67
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    Wgkrueger said:
    bells said:
    He is quite right to shame Apple.   They should be ashamed.

    Their blocking the use of bluetooth for necessary apps will cost tens of thousands of lives. 

    Trump already has the blood of almost 70,000 on his hands.  Does Tim want the blood of that much and more on his hands?    When your mother, father, wife or child is dying this ideological argument for "privacy" tends to lose its appeal.
    Was it too difficult to read the whole article? Did you miss the part where Apple and Google created an API that France could have elected to use that would accomplish the same goal more effectively without compromising security?

    So it isn't an either or situation. No doubt France has been far more effective in addressing Covid-19 then the US, but in this instance France is blinded by its hate of American companies. I also find it ironic that France hit Apple with a big penalty for updating IOS in a way that effected performance for older iPhone, but here it wants Apple to adopt a solution that will kill battery life. The hypocrisy is amplified by the fact that Apple has given France a solution. 

    Apple also has to worry about what it is willing to do for one Country it will have to be willing to do for all. This access can be abused and Apple will have a hard time putting the cat back in the bag once released. 


    This person is a troll who continues to reduce the quality of our discussions. 

    Troll?   LOL.....  No, you just need to be better informed.   Next time pay better attention.
  • Reply 46 of 67
    entropysentropys Posts: 4,135member
    red oak said:
    Opening Bluetooth access to apps running in the background would be a security disaster.    It is comical that a "Digital Technology Minister" would be demanding it.  

    It turns out this guy has no programming or software experience.   And, very limited business experience.    He's never developed an app in his life.   A true socialist bureaucrat appointed to help lead digital technology in France.   LOL 

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cédric_O
    Turns out Socialists are authoritarians... who knew?
    The lessons of the last 100+ years are always ignored. No matter how many times socialist administrations of all stripes end up the same way, there is always a line of earnest young ideologues convinced it will work next time. With them in charge of course.
    edited May 2020 beowulfschmidt
  • Reply 47 of 67
    entropysentropys Posts: 4,135member

    asdasd said:
    red oak said:
    Opening Bluetooth access to apps running in the background would be a security disaster.    It is comical that a "Digital Technology Minister" would be demanding it.  

    It turns out this guy has no programming or software experience.   And, very limited business experience.    He's never developed an app in his life.   A true socialist bureaucrat appointed to help lead digital technology in France.   LOL 

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cédric_O
    Turns out Socialists are authoritarians... who knew?
    What is it with Americans and their hatred of other country’s economic systems. Most of the “socialist” countries in Europe have far fewer people in jail than the US. “Authoritarian” Sweden didn’t even have a lockdown.
    Europe has enough elements of open society to survive longer than more robust collective systems (no doubt based on their dalliances with them around WW2), but has only really done as well as it has riding on the coattails of American dynamism. And they know it, hence their resentment of American companies and the EU project itself. Thankfully the Poms have (belatedly) worked it out.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 48 of 67
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    red oak said:
    Opening Bluetooth access to apps running in the background would be a security disaster.    It is comical that a "Digital Technology Minister" would be demanding it.  

    It turns out this guy has no programming or software experience.   And, very limited business experience.    He's never developed an app in his life.   A true socialist bureaucrat appointed to help lead digital technology in France.   LOL 

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cédric_O
    Turns out Socialists are authoritarians... who knew?

    Actually, like capitalism, socialism is an economic model.   You can have either capitalist or socialist or a mixture of both (like we have here in the U.S.) under either a democratic or authoritarian government.  But, the American right is so scared of it that they tend to distort its actual meaning and confuse it with countries they hate.
  • Reply 49 of 67
    entropysentropys Posts: 4,135member
    asdasd said:
    red oak said:
    Opening Bluetooth access to apps running in the background would be a security disaster.    It is comical that a "Digital Technology Minister" would be demanding it.  

    It turns out this guy has no programming or software experience.   And, very limited business experience.    He's never developed an app in his life.   A true socialist bureaucrat appointed to help lead digital technology in France.   LOL 

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cédric_O
    Turns out Socialists are authoritarians... who knew?
    What is it with Americans and their hatred of other country’s economic systems. Most of the “socialist” countries in Europe have far fewer people in jail than the US. “Authoritarian” Sweden didn’t even have a lockdown.
    Just an observation from afar, as I am not a yank, but I would say it was their ancestors fleeing the oppressive European systems at time. They left Europe to build a better world. And you know what? It is a better world, and it is so because of them. Even for Europe. Imagine if the modern world was left to be built by the Germans, French or (shudder) Belgians?
    edited May 2020 watto_cobra
  • Reply 50 of 67
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,104member
    bells said:
    He is quite right to shame Apple.   They should be ashamed.

    Their blocking the use of bluetooth for necessary apps will cost tens of thousands of lives. 

    Trump already has the blood of almost 70,000 on his hands.  Does Tim want the blood of that much and more on his hands?    When your mother, father, wife or child is dying this ideological argument for "privacy" tends to lose its appeal.
    Was it too difficult to read the whole article? Did you miss the part where Apple and Google created an API that France could have elected to use that would accomplish the same goal more effectively without compromising security?

    ....


    But it doesn't.   The Apple-Google thing does a half-ass job of contact tracing.   Actually, its so bad at it that they stopped even calling it that, because it doesn't.
    So it's not working for you? The rest of us will have to wait until it's available to us, but glad to see you privy to the early beta. Thanks for your stamp of disapproval, Your words carry a lot of weight around here. /s Piling your FUD on top of BS doesn't magically make it an ice cream topping. 

    The stated reason for changing the description ( you did wonder why and look into it, right?) is that notification sounds less invasive than tracing even tho it's ultimately the same thing but done in a different manner than say TraceTogether. The more people feel comfortable with what it's doing the more likely it's used. Friendly less threatening words help as you should know. 

    Of note, and you can verify this for yourself since you don't trust or bother reading stuff you don't find on your own: Relatively few people in countries with a personally-identifiable contact tracing method on their smartphone are willing to use it. Singapore, South Korea, Australia, doesn't matter. Some of the police states have to force the issue and even then there's not enough citizen engagement to make much difference. Perhaps with better privacy protection the Apple/Google plan will have legs...
     even if in your use it did not. :/

    Fun Fact:
    One of my first jobs was skip-tracing for a large retailer's credit operations. Yup, in hindsight it was pretty invasive, and very time-consuming since it was done manually. Despite the extensive employer training, supplied resources, and time and expense spent locating that person it was hit or miss, many times involving some level of luck when successful. We have better laws in place now that prevent some of the worst intrusions on folks who had nothing directly to do with the creditor's failure to pay, protecting their rights to privacy. 
    edited May 2020
  • Reply 51 of 67
    stukestuke Posts: 122member
    I'm sorry, I just can't stop laughing at this guy's stupidity.  Sheer and utter stupidity...a side-effect of arrogance and with a heavy dose of limelight disease.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 52 of 67
    aderutter said:
    It’s France and the UK NHS who should be shamed.
    For wasting taxpayers money on ineffectual apps that will prove to be useless without using the Apple-Google API.

    Without using the Apple-Google API people will have to have their phone open and unlocked and running the app while they walk around in shops, at work etc. Completely impractical and won’t happen. Given that apparently they need over 50% of the population to do this to make the app work only highlights their seeming ignorance. 

    I am in the UK and no way will I or my family use the NHS app until it uses the Apple-Google API with decentralised data and strict privacy.

    Opportunity lost by UK and France.
    I predict the media having a field day when the apps from other countries work and the apps from France and UK don’t.
    I believe the NHS / UK Gov has not ruled the Apple/Google API out yet. Like you, I won't be using the NHS app unless it drops centralised data collection. Also, let's not forget the UK Gov has the crappiest history of NHS related IT disasters.
    stompywatto_cobra
  • Reply 53 of 67
    apple ][ said:
    France, my favorite place.

    It's  one of the countries that is high up on my list of places that I will never, ever visit. I've been to many other places in Europe, but luckily, not France yet, nor ever.
    Are you from the USA...? You gained independence from the British because of French aide. If they hadn't buggered up Britain's government over distractions created by King George's inglorious periods of looniness the RedCoats would have whooped your pants.
    GeorgeBMacasdasdwatto_cobra
  • Reply 54 of 67
    jpolsterjpolster Posts: 16member
    The reason that France and the UK want this special access is the fact that they want the date being stored centrally on their server rather than using the decentralised approach Apple and Google are promoting. It will allow them to use the data to monitor the spread of the virus better but it clearly gives up some privacy or at least poses that danger. So its just a matter of philosophy. What is more important?
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 55 of 67
    entropysentropys Posts: 4,135member
    jpolster said:
    The reason that France and the UK want this special access is the fact that they want the date being stored centrally on their server rather than using the decentralised approach Apple and Google are promoting. It will allow them to use the data to monitor the spread of the virus better but it clearly gives up some privacy or at least poses that danger. So its just a matter of philosophy. What is more important?
    What is more important? Not allowing government to have a system in place to keep until the bureaucrats have the urge to use it for other purposes. Once the Box is opened it is opened. Before you know it they will be using this ability to trace people with STDs. Then what about criminals? Who are they associating with? That would a reasonable thing for government to know don’t you think? How about Parolees, catholic priests? Mormons? Super Junior fans? [actually fair enough there, those Korean girls can be scary]

    One thing about government, is the inevitability of scope and policy creep.  It is how modern government has got so much larger than it was even twenty years ago. I think it best to place limits on it.
    edited May 2020 GG1watto_cobra
  • Reply 56 of 67
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    gatorguy said:
    bells said:
    He is quite right to shame Apple.   They should be ashamed.

    Their blocking the use of bluetooth for necessary apps will cost tens of thousands of lives. 

    Trump already has the blood of almost 70,000 on his hands.  Does Tim want the blood of that much and more on his hands?    When your mother, father, wife or child is dying this ideological argument for "privacy" tends to lose its appeal.
    Was it too difficult to read the whole article? Did you miss the part where Apple and Google created an API that France could have elected to use that would accomplish the same goal more effectively without compromising security?

    ....


    But it doesn't.   The Apple-Google thing does a half-ass job of contact tracing.   Actually, its so bad at it that they stopped even calling it that, because it doesn't.
    So it's not working for you? The rest of us will have to wait until it's available to us, but glad to see you privy to the early beta. Thanks for your stamp of disapproval, Your words carry a lot of weight around here. /s Piling your FUD on top of BS doesn't magically make it an ice cream topping. 

    The stated reason for changing the description ( you did wonder why and look into it, right?) is that notification sounds less invasive than tracing even tho it's ultimately the same thing but done in a different manner than say TraceTogether. The more people feel comfortable with what it's doing the more likely it's used. Friendly less threatening words help as you should know. 

    Of note, and you can verify this for yourself since you don't trust or bother reading stuff you don't find on your own: Relatively few people in countries with a personally-identifiable contact tracing method on their smartphone are willing to use it. Singapore, South Korea, Australia, doesn't matter. Some of the police states have to force the issue and even then there's not enough citizen engagement to make much difference. Perhaps with better privacy protection the Apple/Google plan will have legs...
     even if in your use it did not. :/

    Fun Fact:
    One of my first jobs was skip-tracing for a large retailer's credit operations. Yup, in hindsight it was pretty invasive, and very time-consuming since it was done manually. Despite the extensive employer training, supplied resources, and time and expense spent locating that person it was hit or miss, many times involving some level of luck when successful. We have better laws in place now that prevent some of the worst intrusions on folks who had nothing directly to do with the creditor's failure to pay, protecting their rights to privacy. 

    Not working FOR ME?    No, like I said, this Apple-Google thing does not work as a contact tracer.   And that is why the name was changed.  Very simply it does not trace contacts.  Is it better than nothing?  Only if people use it.  But why would they want Google tracking them? 

    And, along with an effective testing program, an effective contact tracing program is necessary to get the infectious off of our streets and out of our stores -- which is crucial to both restoring the economy and keeping people alive. 

    Again, the countries that did it have contained the virus while we in the U.S. have watched it kill both our people and our economy as well as our world standing.   China is now laughing at us as we make excuses and try pass the blame for our failures to them.   Meanwhile -- their people are safely back to work.
  • Reply 57 of 67
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    jpolster said:
    The reason that France and the UK want this special access is the fact that they want the date being stored centrally on their server rather than using the decentralised approach Apple and Google are promoting. It will allow them to use the data to monitor the spread of the virus better but it clearly gives up some privacy or at least poses that danger. So its just a matter of philosophy. What is more important -- the economy and people's lives or your supposed privacy?
    Finished that for you.  

    And, unlike what the American government is seeking to do, most countries aren't interested in merely tracking the spread of the virus -- they want to get the infectious off of the streets and out of the stores and businesses so their people can go back to work safely -- like countries like China and S. Korea did.

  • Reply 58 of 67
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    entropys said:
    jpolster said:
    The reason that France and the UK want this special access is the fact that they want the date being stored centrally on their server rather than using the decentralised approach Apple and Google are promoting. It will allow them to use the data to monitor the spread of the virus better but it clearly gives up some privacy or at least poses that danger. So its just a matter of philosophy. What is more important?
    What is more important? Not allowing government to have a system in place to keep until the bureaucrats have the urge to use it for other purposes. Once the Box is opened it is opened. Before you know it they will be using this ability to trace people with STDs. Then what about criminals? Who are they associating with? That would a reasonable thing for government to know don’t you think? How about Parolees, catholic priests? Mormons? Super Junior fans? [actually fair enough there, those Korean girls can be scary]

    One thing about government, is the inevitability of scope and policy creep.  It is how modern government has got so much larger than it was even twenty years ago. I think it best to place limits on it.
    You say:  "Once that box is opened..."
    Here in the U.S. George Bush opened that box almost 20 years ago with the Patriot Act.   Your alarm is a bit late.  

    BTW, they have been tracing people with STDs and other infectious diseases for many decades....  Again, your alarm is a bit late.

    I find it a both sad and funny that the American right trusts the Corona Virus more than they government they support.
  • Reply 59 of 67
    JinTechJinTech Posts: 1,013member
    JinTech said:
    And what has France contributed, financially or in the means of medical supplies? I am sincerely curious, it's not a snide question.
    Yesterday France donated €500 Million to the Coronavirus Global Response. Altogether over €7.4 billion, equivalent to $8 billion, has been donated internationally to the fund, with the notable exception of the U.S.A & Russia! Go figure......
    Ah. Good on them for that donation and thank you for that information.
  • Reply 60 of 67
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,104member
    JinTech said:
    And what has France contributed, financially or in the means of medical supplies? I am sincerely curious, it's not a snide question.
    Yesterday France donated €500 Million to the Coronavirus Global Response. Altogether over €7.4 billion, equivalent to $8 billion, has been donated internationally to the fund, with the notable exception of the U.S.A & Russia! Go figure......
    The US could do a whole lot better IMO, but international relief hasn't been totally ignored.  They've offered direct assistance and supplies to several countries (Italy, Phillipines for example) and several million to the  U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees for health relief to the least advantaged in the poorest countries.
    I would certainly hope to see more. 



    Throughout the last couple of decades "the United States has contributed close to 40 percent of the world’s global health assistance each year, nearly five times larger than the next donor, which is the UK, and 30 percent of the world’s humanitarian assistance".






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