Why wouldn’t people be happy to use this service. It protects them as much as everyone else. Why do governments need the geo-location? The only government involvement should be the uploading of the beacons from the positivity infected citizen and the broadcast of the contact tracing notifications to the potentially affected citizens affected by the new contagion case. Governments could even offer weekly lottery draws to encourage users to continue using the app.
AppleInsider said: "We've overcompensated for privacy and still created other risks and not solved the problem," Soltani said. "I'd personally be more comfortable if it were a health agency that I trusted and there were legal protections in place over the use of the data and I knew it was operated by a dedicated security team."
Boy oh boy does this article expose the real purpose behind the cries for such tracing! They want the data, Covid or not. Covid is just the excuse.
So... you mean like all those 3-letter agencies who promised the powers entrusted to them post 9/11 would't be abused? Yeah, right! There were legal protections there too. I have this bridge...
Or, even in recent news, there were legal protections against wire-tapping US citizens, especially for political ends... but wanna make a bet anyone gets prosecuted? #AboveTheLaw
And I see the users in the UK trial are complaining about the battery drain, as predicted by just about everybody outside NHSX.
I don't remember an iOS release or contentious app release where people didn't immediately moan about their battery not lasting as long. I'm sure. it doesn't have anything to do with using the phone more because it has a new toy on it.
If you read the measured reports, say Howard Oakley's (respected Mac expert, software developer and, coincidentally, a medic) who is based on the Isle of Wight so actually has the app live on his phone, you get a different story. He says, from real use in a live deployment: "Even when we have been quite active, and it has clocked up several hours in the background, it is amazingly frugal with energy on iPhones, and neither I nor my wife have noticed any increase in battery use".
In the same item, he also says that the 'Bluetooth in the background' issue is much less than anticipated.
And I see the users in the UK trial are complaining about the battery drain, as predicted by just about everybody outside NHSX.
Next step for the UK: a humiliating climb down smothered in a pack of lies designed to make it look as though this was the plan all along.
“Our original system was designed to provide a test baseline for the eventual rollout of our app using the Apple/Google API. We are pleased to report that the real system, which we always planned to release, is working exactly as we intended.”
The elephant in the room is that Apple’s new API will only work on devices running the very latest version of iOS (and the same for Android). This kind of app requires mass adoption so Apple and Google new API is next to useless.
NHSX were right to explore alternatives.
The UK/NHS app runs on iPhones back to about iPhone 5s and needs at least iOS 9. Pretty good, I thought. It does not need the (soon to be released) Apple/Google framework which is how come it has already been deployed in a test area of the UK.
No way I am going to use any covid app. I don’t trust any of the parties involved.
... All this tracking could for instance be implemented at a network level where they use triangulation data to calculate the risks to individuals, which are at a certain risk level then targeted with an sms telling them that they should go to one of a list of providers doing COVID-19 testing.
That seems like the most feasible solution, considering that device based solutions would require the latest version of the OS.
To be clear, the UK's system (and I think Google/Apples' too) does NOT track users' locations. It tracks contact with (being close to) other (anonymised) users, not where that contact happened. Your phone remembers the anonymised identities of those you were close to (for 14 days, I think). If you, or they, fall ill with the virus and report that fact to the NHS the system then warns each of the contacts calculated to be at risk.
The only geographic data the system stores is the first part of your home postcode (Zip code). That only gets reported if you report being ill; it's used to identify potential infection hotspots for nationwide tracking. The first part of my postcode covers more than 28,000 people's homes. This is not a position in any practical sense.
And no, the NHSX weren't right to explore an alternative they knew was never going to fly due to the battery drain. That was just pouring money down the drain. This is the same sort of 'Little Britain' hubris we're used to seeing from the public school tosspots running the country. Did you honestly think that a system that an app that has to hog the CPU and drain the battery was ever going to fly.
And let's not forget that given the government's track record, the system will be hacked within about a month of it being released. It still will be with the Apple/Google API, but at least the thieves will only get a list of encrypted tokens.
At least the Germans saw sense before they embarrassed themselves.
As I replied elsewhere, the battery drain is small in practice.
If the system is hacked, the hackers get your name, town of residence and a list of random people you've been close to in the past fortnight. Oh, and the fact that you are, or have been, ill. Not sure how they're going to exploit that to do you any harm.
We need to keep this in proportion. This is not a mass theft of personal data but it will likely keep alive a lot of owners of personal data.
Why would anyone use this type of software no matter who makes it or what it does? It’s a feel good non-solution to a problem that will only be solved with time. If you live and/or work in a big city or use public transportation you see screwed with or without the software.
Are you an epidemiologist? Or should I be trusting the experts over you?
happywaffle said: Are you an epidemiologist? Or should I be trusting the experts over you?
This is where I might disagree. The experts, so far, have been incredibly wrong (not sure if that means any bad-intent but maybe more that it is too complex for anyone? Or, the problem is in modeling? https://www.aier.org/article/the-2006-origins-of-the-lockdown-idea/ )
Unless it was your life saved, or a person you cared very much about. Then there would be no mention of silliness. 🤦♂️
No, no single life is worth shutting down the entire country for. That is pure insanity.
Keep in mind the people you’re arguing with are also probably mostly healthy people who think they have a 3-4% chance of dying if they get the coronavirus. They probably have no awareness of the demographics of who actually dies and who needs to be protected and instead have been eating up the fear mongering by the media and their favourite politicians. We could have managed the virus with far more focussed measures without shutting down the economy. And we certainly don’t need tracking apps anymore (they may have been beneficial a couple of months ago).
As mentioned in the article, only 14 days worth of anonymized data is on the phone and only sent if the user opts in. I would have no problem that they include location, it can't be traced to you anyway and it could be useful for mapping hot spots so that they could apply more security measures, and yes, which could include a bit more surveillance. This is a nasty contagious pathogen the likes that have never been seen.
Never been seen?
For starters… There’s the Spanish flu.
You're referring to the pandemic, to be clear, I wasn't referring to the pandemic but to the pathogen and its uncanny contagion (the likes we have never seen). The Spanish flu was a considerably larger pandemic indeed but it was caused by the influenza virus, a pathogen of the likes we see every year since and is part of a slew of types and sub-types. Although coronaviruses were first discovered in the 1930s, we've only had 2 comparatively minor outbreaks SARS and MERS that totalled less than 1700 deaths. We've already hit 300,000 already with COVID-19 and counting. And yet the other 2 had greater fatality rates, they were contained much quicker and easier. Finally, this is 2020 not 1918, we should be doing much much better with all the advances in medicine and worldwide communication resources. This thing is just crazy.
No way I am going to use any covid app. I don’t trust any of the parties involved.
... All this tracking could for instance be implemented at a network level where they use triangulation data to calculate the risks to individuals, which are at a certain risk level then targeted with an sms telling them that they should go to one of a list of providers doing COVID-19 testing.
That seems like the most feasible solution, considering that device based solutions would require the latest version of the OS.
To be clear, the UK's system (and I think Google/Apples' too) does NOT track users' locations. It tracks contact with (being close to) other (anonymised) users, not where that contact happened. Your phone remembers the anonymised identities of those you were close to (for 14 days, I think). If you, or they, fall ill with the virus and report that fact to the NHS the system then warns each of the contacts calculated to be at risk.
The only geographic data the system stores is the first part of your home postcode (Zip code). That only gets reported if you report being ill; it's used to identify potential infection hotspots for nationwide tracking. The first part of my postcode covers more than 28,000 people's homes. This is not a position in any practical sense.
OK but the network operator doesn’t need to reveal any location information.
As mentioned in the article, only 14 days worth of anonymized data is on the phone and only sent if the user opts in. I would have no problem that they include location, it can't be traced to you anyway and it could be useful for mapping hot spots so that they could apply more security measures, and yes, which could include a bit more surveillance. This is a nasty contagious pathogen the likes that have never been seen.
Never been seen?
For starters… There’s the Spanish flu.
You're referring to the pandemic, to be clear, I wasn't referring to the pandemic but to the pathogen and its uncanny contagion (the likes we have never seen). The Spanish flu was a considerably larger pandemic indeed but it was caused by the influenza virus, a pathogen of the likes we see every year since and is part of a slew of types and sub-types. Although coronaviruses were first discovered in the 1930s, we've only had 2 comparatively minor outbreaks SARS and MERS that totalled less than 1700 deaths. We've already hit 300,000 already with COVID-19 and counting. And yet the other 2 had greater fatality rates, they were contained much quicker and easier. Finally, this is 2020 not 1918, we should be doing much much better with all the advances in medicine and worldwide communication resources. This thing is just crazy.
That's almost like saying "the likes we've never seen" about every new day when we wake up… Yes, it is a day we've never seen before, but that's not really something unique.
Basically everything about this outbreak was either predicted (like warnings about this family of viruses), or have happened in the past (like the Spanish flu).
And that's it really.
Your trust in advances of medicine is cute, but there's been no magic development where we use some sort of nanotechnology to smartly attack anything in the body. This type of work is still hard work doing "basic" things like analysing about a gazillion ways that proteins behave in certain circumstances etc. It is work far from randomly putting stuff in beakers and getting surprised if it goes boom, but it's still combinatorial work that one way or another (actual physical tests, math, computer models, etc) requires the hours to be put in to find a solution.
“Useless” by whose standards? People whose wish is only for their version of a solution.
The Apple-Google version of an approach is dispersed not big government centered, which is why it puzzles most of the centralized of viewpoint.
The app empowers individuals: get informed yourself if you May have been significantly exposed so you can make a personal decision to get tested. No sweeping quarantine.
Not THE answer but definitely one answer. Potentially one of the many that will add up to a further control of this disease.
Why would anyone use this type of software no matter who makes it or what it does? It’s a feel good non-solution to a problem that will only be solvemd with time. If you live and/or work in a big city or use public transportation you see screwed with or without the software.
Are you an epidemiologist? Or should I be trusting the experts over you?
It’s of dubious value and lays the ground work for mandatory tracking under the guise of safety. We have already given up a foot with the Patriot Act and this will help get that next inch.
1. If you live in a big city move. 2. Stop using public transportation. 3. stay out of nursing homes. 4. Have compromised family or friends the stay away from them.
The sad thing is that the arguments being made in favor of dispensing with privacy protection parallel arguments used by German National Socialists in the 1930s & ‘40. The phrase, which became a slogan, translates roughly as “It’s for your safety.” I would vastly prefer an API with privacy protection as a core focus to the Microsoft venture that Connecticut announced they will be using.
You're seriously making a comparison with the Nazis? I don't know what's happening in your country but in the UK no-one has blamed a minority group and started to steal their property and ship them off to extermination camps, thus raising the death rate.
The world faces a novel virus that has paralysed normal life. One of the tools that can get us back to normal, without huge numbers of deaths, is the ability to warn those who have been in contact with the virus to get themselves tested and self-isolate to protect others. That tool (which doesn't know, let alone track, location) can be turned off when we're on top of the pandemic and a vaccine is available.
As mentioned in the article, only 14 days worth of anonymized data is on the phone and only sent if the user opts in. I would have no problem that they include location, it can't be traced to you anyway and it could be useful for mapping hot spots so that they could apply more security measures, and yes, which could include a bit more surveillance. This is a nasty contagious pathogen the likes that have never been seen.
Never been seen?
For starters… There’s the Spanish flu.
That's kind of the problem. It's not like the Spanish flu. Thinking it is like flu is one of the mistakes that UK made: we started off by treating it like a flu pandemic but it turns out to be a lot more dangerous. We lost a number of weeks where it continued to spread as a result.
Yes, they are right: This Apple-Google thingee was simply a smoke screen put up to protect the brand(s) -- but worthless from a public health aspect.
But, the privacy freaks continue to cheer the scam on.
Apparently they believe that their privacy is more important than the lives of their fellow citizens. (And, LOL, they typically call themselves "patriots"! what an f'n joke!)
... So, what are these privacy freaks hiding that's more important than somebody's life?
The real patriots are in places like China and South Korea who gave up personal freedom for the well being of their countries and the health of their fellow citizens.
Here, in the U.S., we have fake patriots who wave the flag but are unwilling to sacrifice even a smidgen for the country they profess to love and are entirely willing to sacrifice the lives of fellow citizens for their personal privacy. So, again, what are they hiding that's worth tens of thousands of American lives?
And I see the users in the UK trial are complaining about the battery drain, as predicted by just about everybody outside NHSX.
Next step for the UK: a humiliating climb down smothered in a pack of lies designed to make it look as though this was the plan all along.
“Our original system was designed to provide a test baseline for the eventual rollout of our app using the Apple/Google API. We are pleased to report that the real system, which we always planned to release, is working exactly as we intended.”
The elephant in the room is that Apple’s new API will only work on devices running the very latest version of iOS (and the same for Android). This kind of app requires mass adoption so Apple and Google new API is next to useless.
NHSX were right to explore alternatives.
The UK/NHS app runs on iPhones back to about iPhone 5s and needs at least iOS 9. Pretty good, I thought. It does not need the (soon to be released) Apple/Google framework which is how come it has already been deployed in a test area of the UK.
If Apple so wants, otherwise the app is banned from the app store and does not work anymore.
As mentioned in the article, only 14 days worth of anonymized data is on the phone and only sent if the user opts in. I would have no problem that they include location, it can't be traced to you anyway and it could be useful for mapping hot spots so that they could apply more security measures, and yes, which could include a bit more surveillance. This is a nasty contagious pathogen the likes that have never been seen.
When your set of anonymized tokens are all tagged with location data, how hard do you think it is to figure out who is who when that location data is going to swiftly identify where you lay your head down at night (unless you are a vagabond calling a new town “home” day after day)
Comments
So... you mean like all those 3-letter agencies who promised the powers entrusted to them post 9/11 would't be abused? Yeah, right! There were legal protections there too.
I have this bridge...
Or, even in recent news, there were legal protections against wire-tapping US citizens, especially for political ends... but wanna make a bet anyone gets prosecuted? #AboveTheLaw
If you read the measured reports, say Howard Oakley's (respected Mac expert, software developer and, coincidentally, a medic) who is based on the Isle of Wight so actually has the app live on his phone, you get a different story. He says, from real use in a live deployment: "Even when we have been quite active, and it has clocked up several hours in the background, it is amazingly frugal with energy on iPhones, and neither I nor my wife have noticed any increase in battery use".
In the same item, he also says that the 'Bluetooth in the background' issue is much less than anticipated.
The only geographic data the system stores is the first part of your home postcode (Zip code). That only gets reported if you report being ill; it's used to identify potential infection hotspots for nationwide tracking. The first part of my postcode covers more than 28,000 people's homes. This is not a position in any practical sense.
As I replied elsewhere, the battery drain is small in practice.
If the system is hacked, the hackers get your name, town of residence and a list of random people you've been close to in the past fortnight. Oh, and the fact that you are, or have been, ill. Not sure how they're going to exploit that to do you any harm.
We need to keep this in proportion. This is not a mass theft of personal data but it will likely keep alive a lot of owners of personal data.
Or, check out this Twitter thread to get some kind of idea of how, even still, the reporting is off:
https://twitter.com/EthicalSkeptic
Basically everything about this outbreak was either predicted (like warnings about this family of viruses), or have happened in the past (like the Spanish flu).
And that's it really.
Your trust in advances of medicine is cute, but there's been no magic development where we use some sort of nanotechnology to smartly attack anything in the body. This type of work is still hard work doing "basic" things like analysing about a gazillion ways that proteins behave in certain circumstances etc. It is work far from randomly putting stuff in beakers and getting surprised if it goes boom, but it's still combinatorial work that one way or another (actual physical tests, math, computer models, etc) requires the hours to be put in to find a solution.
2. Stop using public transportation.
3. stay out of nursing homes.
4. Have compromised family or friends the stay away from them.
The world faces a novel virus that has paralysed normal life. One of the tools that can get us back to normal, without huge numbers of deaths, is the ability to warn those who have been in contact with the virus to get themselves tested and self-isolate to protect others. That tool (which doesn't know, let alone track, location) can be turned off when we're on top of the pandemic and a vaccine is available.
That's kind of the problem. It's not like the Spanish flu. Thinking it is like flu is one of the mistakes that UK made: we started off by treating it like a flu pandemic but it turns out to be a lot more dangerous. We lost a number of weeks where it continued to spread as a result.