I've been using Pebblebee just fine and it beats every other Bluetooth enabled locator device that I've ever tried. So if it works fine for Pebblebee, then I'm not sure what Tile is complaining about.
Having said that, the main reason that I'm even in the iOS ecosystem is for security and privacy. The changes that Apple made in recent iOS iterations appear to be geared precisely towards that...protecting my privacy and for security reasons. Tiles complaint is a very narrow-minded view of a larger business model perspective that encompasses Apple's core DNA. Either innovate, adapt and make your own products more private and secure, or get out of the way.
Tile's app uses the GPS location feature in the background while also scanning Bluetooth for nearby Tile products. It gets permission from the user to do this. Apple now demands repeated permissions from users for the Tile app to continue to run in the background. Apple claims it must do this because users don't realize apps that run in the background and use GPS are burning through their battery life. This is true but Apple has magically chosen to implement a solution that puts its own AirTags product in a clear advantage. Users will probably never even be asked if they want to scan for AirTags in the background just like they are never asked if they want to scan for Apple's products using WiFi, Bluetooth and GPS in the background currently (that's how Find My and WiFi location works). I see both companies as being in the wrong here. Tile should never have built their business model with such a huge dependency on Apple's SDK restrictions. Apple should never restrict what users can choose to do with their products. Users should always have a way to tell iOS that they want to enable full access to Bluetooth, WiFi and GPS in their apps. By all means make it easy and obvious which apps are using the most power and show users why when they tap on them and give them some options for limiting the power usage of those apps (like revoking GPS background permission). If Apple built its entire SDK strategy around giving information and power to their users, they would never get into situations like this one.
Your primary assertion here is that Apple is not telling users about Apple processes running in the background, e.g.. ("Users will probably never even be asked"), is pure speculation intended to paint Apple in a bad light. Such a claim is made even more egregious by the fact that Apple has not even announced a product in this category or shipped beta versions of software that would work with such an unannounced product.
Is it really fair to lambast a company for what they might do in the future and then layer on top of the speculation a bunch of violations that occur only if you assume the most pessimistic perspective? Geez, at least they should give Apple a chance to show their hand before adopting the victim persona.
Yes, these guys are scared sh**less that they are going to be crushed by a competitor. There used to be a time when smart companies dug-in and showed a little intestinal fortitude and figured out a way to beat the competition - by competing, by being innovative, and by out-engineering the slow moving megacorps with better engineering and agility. Now they'd rather whip out their always-damp victim crying towel and call their lawyers. Pathetic.
I don't know what SDKs you are referring to, but unless a company has specifically licensed an integration mechanism into Apple's hardware or software systems, with contract terms and conditions, Apple is free to modify their SDKs in whatever way suits them. Yes, they open up SDKs to help build out their ecosystem with third-party contributions and certainly do not want to stifle growth, inhibit adoption, or piss off partners, but Apple owns the infrastructure and is fully responsible for maintaining its integrity. If they need to make changes to ensure the viability of the ecosystem for the greatest number of stakeholders, they will. Deprecation happens. It's no different than GM or Ford changing the interior layout of their vehicles in a way that disrupts third party floor mat suppliers, or changing a headlight design in a way that is no longer compatible with a group of light bulb suppliers. Owning the coat that others want to grab on to still has its privileges, as it always should.
Well said sir. Totally agree with your assessment here. I’d love to get my hands on Apple Airtags but sadly they don’t exist yet. Lol.
I have Tile too for a number of years now and I really haven’t been impressed with them at all especially when the thing is sitting in my closet on my book bag and I’m 15 feet away from my Tile Pro and it doesn’t even register in the app!!! Yes fresh battery installed. Yes location access given. Just unreliable.
Tile should compete and stop trying to whine and dine like Spotify. This isn’t welfare. Give me a better product and you can get my money. If you can’t out engineer Apple then suck it up buttercup.
Tile just know their days are numbered and are shivering in their boots.
That's the wrong attitude. If Apple keeps coming out with services that competes with other 3rd party developers on their platform, those developers will start to not trust Apple and wonder when the day will come that Apple comes out with their competing service and drives them out of business. Or worse, creates disadvantages for these 3rd party developers that wouldn't apply to Apple. That does not foster innovation or trust on the platform that these developers want to use.
One could also argue that these companies have benefited immensely from the current system, and the exposure it provides. Apple TV + isn't drawing people away from Netflix, and iOS users aren't leaving Spotify in droves either.
The key difference is Apple still allows Netflix and Spotify to work on their platforms. What they are allegedly doing is making moves to prevent Tile from doing so whilst coming out with their own product which can work. If this transpired then that is anti competitive practice.
Until this products shows up, and we actually see it in action, the claim remains weak.
Tile's huge flaw is that it requires other Tile users to have an app running in order for it to work outside the range of the original owner's iPhone.
Apple's method essentially bakes tracking into iOS itself so all it needs is an iPhone near the vicinity of an AirTag, anywhere an iPhone exists. That's huge. It's why I don't use Tile's product. I want to be able to essentially track my tag anywhere and that's where Tile's product fails.
Tile is basically struggling to remain relevant. Apple is (and should be) allowed to make it's own competing products and provide user choice. It seems that Tile is complaining more about being restricted (rightfully so) by Apple in regards to how it uses location data of the user, and not the Tile tags.
@sflocal - hit the nail right on the head. Absolutely useless in Australia (big country with about 5 km to the next bronzed Aussie). Hell, the best COVID-19 can manage Down Under is 105 deaths.
Tile's huge flaw is that it requires other Tile users to have an app running in order for it to work outside the range of the original owner's iPhone.
You win the Internet today! This is exactly the problem and why it is a privacy issue. Third party’s phone is now broadcasting *its* location to Tile so that “you” can find your beacon.
To some degree, I would think it could be worked around, by extending the iBeacon API within iOS to be locked to a specific UUID series for this type of application, but it is easy enough to get abused by bad actors.
Oh, please. It seems like their products are getting larger and larger—the opposite of the trend of making things smaller so they’re just out of the way, yet function well. They’re a one trick pony. Fire the CEO. hire someone that can acknowledge the fact, and start innovating.
we had to get a tile for my wife's keys. I was going to get a couple more for purse etc, but when I heard Apple might be making something similar I decided to hold off.
I have background usage turned off for Tile, which they do not like because they send notifications incessantly to please turn back on for app to "work correctly".
Tile's app uses the GPS location feature in the background while also scanning Bluetooth for nearby Tile products. It gets permission from the user to do this. Apple now demands repeated permissions from users for the Tile app to continue to run in the background. Apple claims it must do this because users don't realize apps that run in the background and use GPS are burning through their battery life. This is true but Apple has magically chosen to implement a solution that puts its own AirTags product in a clear advantage. Users will probably never even be asked if they want to scan for AirTags in the background just like they are never asked if they want to scan for Apple's products using WiFi, Bluetooth and GPS in the background currently (that's how Find My and WiFi location works). I see both companies as being in the wrong here. Tile should never have built their business model with such a huge dependency on Apple's SDK restrictions. Apple should never restrict what users can choose to do with their products. Users should always have a way to tell iOS that they want to enable full access to Bluetooth, WiFi and GPS in their apps. By all means make it easy and obvious which apps are using the most power and show users why when they tap on them and give them some options for limiting the power usage of those apps (like revoking GPS background permission). If Apple built its entire SDK strategy around giving information and power to their users, they would never get into situations like this one.
Your primary assertion here is that Apple is not telling users about Apple processes running in the background, e.g.. ("Users will probably never even be asked"), is pure speculation intended to paint Apple in a bad light. Such a claim is made even more egregious by the fact that Apple has not even announced a product in this category or shipped beta versions of software that would work with such an unannounced product.
Is it really fair to lambast a company for what they might do in the future and then layer on top of the speculation a bunch of violations that occur only if you assume the most pessimistic perspective? Geez, at least they should give Apple a chance to show their hand before adopting the victim persona.
Yes, these guys are scared sh**less that they are going to be crushed by a competitor. There used to be a time when smart companies dug-in and showed a little intestinal fortitude and figured out a way to beat the competition - by competing, by being innovative, and by out-engineering the slow moving megacorps with better engineering and agility. Now they'd rather whip out their always-damp victim crying towel and call their lawyers. Pathetic.
I don't know what SDKs you are referring to, but unless a company has specifically licensed an integration mechanism into Apple's hardware or software systems, with contract terms and conditions, Apple is free to modify their SDKs in whatever way suits them. Yes, they open up SDKs to help build out their ecosystem with third-party contributions and certainly do not want to stifle growth, inhibit adoption, or piss off partners, but Apple owns the infrastructure and is fully responsible for maintaining its integrity. If they need to make changes to ensure the viability of the ecosystem for the greatest number of stakeholders, they will. Deprecation happens. It's no different than GM or Ford changing the interior layout of their vehicles in a way that disrupts third party floor mat suppliers, or changing a headlight design in a way that is no longer compatible with a group of light bulb suppliers. Owning the coat that others want to grab on to still has its privileges, as it always should.
Again Apple is doing this (running code in the background that tracks WiFi and Bluetooth devices) right now. Even when Bluetooth is turned off, Apple devices are discoverable from another Apple device (you can test this yourself using any Bluetooth scanner). Apple scans WiFi to build a database of routers and their locations in order to augment their GPS location. iPads without GPS can use this database to discover their location. It's a cool feature but no developer other than Apple is allowed to do this on the platform and users are never asked if they want to allow it. Of course you don't know what SDK's I am referring to. You are not a developer. You have no idea how many cool apps iOS devices could have had if the SDK was not so locked down and if Apple treated its users with respect instead of like small children that must be limited at all times for their own good.
Now, somehow it looks that Apple disables these APIs especially if Tile needs them, so that’s somewhat strange and worthy to be investigated.
This claim that Apple is specifically blocking Tile-related APIs is made up and probably can't be proven. Apple has other companies bellyaching about access to other secure pieces of iOS. While I hope that some amicable agreement can be reached in the future, I strongly support Apple taking a slow and cautious approach to any proposal that could weaken or make vulnerable iOS security. Tile's approach thus far (esp in the House) has shown me that they don't care a whit about Apple's security, they are going broke fast and don't want to work with the company to find a solution (which would probably mean a lot of work and no backward compatibility for Tile, I would add).
Whoever's handling Tile's PR needs a new approach -- it is Tile themselves that have put me off purchasing a Tile-like product, not Apple's (currently vapourware) AirTags.
Tile just know their days are numbered and are shivering in their boots.
That's the wrong attitude. If Apple keeps coming out with services that competes with other 3rd party developers on their platform, those developers will start to not trust Apple and wonder when the day will come that Apple comes out with their competing service and drives them out of business. Or worse, creates disadvantages for these 3rd party developers that wouldn't apply to Apple. That does not foster innovation or trust on the platform that these developers want to use.
Apple disrupts industries, this is just fact. Tile could, instead of bitching and moaning about how Apple is going to stomp all over them, make their product better so they can both co-exist. I have owned Tile products, and while they serve a good purpose I have found them to be pretty naggy. I have had one Tile product work on me for over several years, despite it telling me that I need to replace it because the battery is dead.
So exactly what is apple doing? Tile and the article make several claims that Apple has systematically disabled tile products but never said how.
We keep hearing about airtags but they’re still rumor-ware. Personally, I don’t think I’d use either AirTags or Tile, but I don’t think Apple should lock a competitor out, either.
Certain APIs needed for Apps to communicate with the iPhone that are needlessly disabled without having an impact on privacy. Now, somehow it looks that Apple disables these APIs especially if Tile needs them, so that’s somewhat strange and worthy to be investigated. It would not serve the public discussion to list obscure function names and I don’t know these, but I have experienced myself what these changes cause and how companies depend on these APIs for their business to operate.
So some, probably undocumented APIs that Apple doesn't allow anyway, are being replaced by better, more secure APIs which are documented and therefore should be used? Then the developers get angry because their methods of accessing information, possibly about us, are being shut down?
Sure, Apple might allow by default the access to Location data for their apps but guess what? Apple can ensure that their access is secure because they control end to end. What Apple can't do is ensure the same thing from developers like Tile and therefore they put up a message saying "Do you want to allow this app?".
What people fail to see is that if Maps information goes rogue then Apple is on the hook. Apple is willing to accept that risk because it's their application. What Apple ISN'T and SHOULDN'T be on the hook for is apps created by other developers, ESPECIALLY if they are using undocumented APIs that Apple expressly forbids anyway. If Apple didn't provide these warnings and data went rogue then Apple COULD be on the hook for that as well.
I don't see this as being a problem in reality. I feel Tile making light of this is putting Tile customers at risk.
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Absolutely useless in Australia (big country with about 5 km to the next bronzed Aussie).
Hell, the best COVID-19 can manage Down Under is 105 deaths.
To some degree, I would think it could be worked around, by extending the iBeacon API within iOS to be locked to a specific UUID series for this type of application, but it is easy enough to get abused by bad actors.
I have background usage turned off for Tile, which they do not like because they send notifications incessantly to please turn back on for app to "work correctly".
Of course you don't know what SDK's I am referring to. You are not a developer. You have no idea how many cool apps iOS devices could have had if the SDK was not so locked down and if Apple treated its users with respect instead of like small children that must be limited at all times for their own good.
Sure, Apple might allow by default the access to Location data for their apps but guess what? Apple can ensure that their access is secure because they control end to end. What Apple can't do is ensure the same thing from developers like Tile and therefore they put up a message saying "Do you want to allow this app?".
What people fail to see is that if Maps information goes rogue then Apple is on the hook. Apple is willing to accept that risk because it's their application. What Apple ISN'T and SHOULDN'T be on the hook for is apps created by other developers, ESPECIALLY if they are using undocumented APIs that Apple expressly forbids anyway. If Apple didn't provide these warnings and data went rogue then Apple COULD be on the hook for that as well.
I don't see this as being a problem in reality. I feel Tile making light of this is putting Tile customers at risk.