Apple transition to own ARM chips in Macs rumored to start at WWDC

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  • Reply 61 of 82
    hypoluxa said:
    Doesn't Apple have licensing issues with Intel & USB that it has to sort out? Will that affect future Macs with ARM? Or is it all a moot point now?
    For the Intel part :wink:  USB controllers connect to PCH Hub Architecture, so  if someone is interested  : https://lab.whitequark.org/notes/2017-11-08/accessing-intel-ich-pch-gpios/  so imho no licensing issue.
  • Reply 62 of 82
    entropysentropys Posts: 4,152member
    I would expect a budget device would just be USB-c and not thunderbolt.
    steve_jobs
  • Reply 63 of 82
    Although I'm patiently waiting for a 27"iMac to have the ARM cpu, I worry about the "Monopoly" tag that can be placed on Apple when they shed Intel. 

    I believe we've all seen the mainstream articles about activists wanting to dismantle Amazon "Because it's a Monopoly!"

    A similar argument could be used against Apple> All it would take to start the ball rolling is for the activists to find a sympathetic judge and file a lawsuit. 

    I still remember what happens when iBooks versus Kindle was adjudicated  - - IMO, cold hard facts and numbers didn't matter. Apple was in a position to have the Kindled  eBooks read on Apple devices, thus reducing Amazon's capability to sell Kindle readers.

    Intel could claim Apple's commitment to ARM was depriving them of a healthy slice of income and jobs. 

    Just my thoughts, YMMV 
  • Reply 64 of 82
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    elijahg said:
    I’m thinking about getting a MacBook for someone - but really not sure about switching to ARM with all the incompatibility (again) and lack of Windows. My apprehension is how long will it be before Photoshop/MS word will be native, and whilst they aren’t, whether there will be some form of emulation such as Rosetta as there was for PPC apps. It’s relatively efficient for a CISC CPU (such as Intel’s) to emulate A RISC (PPC/ARM) CPU, but emulating a CISC CPU on a RISC CPU is very slow - as anyone who ran VirtualPC on a PPC will know.

    That said, anything from the App Store will be native because Xcode produces object code that App Store compiles onto the correct architecture for the machine, so a reasonable number of apps will be native from day 1. Not that that helps me much, I have a grand total of 0 non Apple apps from the MAS, and about 25 I use regularly from other sources. I prefer the non-MAS apps because they don't have the "all our customers are thick" sandboxing that the MAS apps do.

    It’ll be interesting to see whether Apple reduces the price of the Macs to correspond to the much cheaper ARM CPUs, I bet they won’t. 
    Windows means nothing to a lot of people these days.   When buying for somebody else it is best to understand their needs completely.

    As for apps I'm not sure why people are getting their shorts all twisted up over apps.   The fact is with every new Mac OS release a few old apps end up not supported and that is on x86.   Apps that still have developer supporting the code will get updated of phased out, nothing new here.
  • Reply 65 of 82
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    All people need to do is look at ARM based Linux distros to realize applications are not a big deal.   Then they need to look at what AMD is doing to Intel and realize there is so much potential for far better systems if Apple gets away from Intel.   Intel has been shift crap hardware for a decade and it is finally coming back to haunt them.    More importantly public opinion of Intel finally reflects the way they have messed up the industry.

    Now lets consider AMD a bit more, they currently put 8 cores on a relatively small chiplet.    Apple could easily fly by that number of cores and still have room for a GPU, and all that fancy I/O they have.   Imagine a 12 core processor with a GPU that is good enough for entry level laptop work.
  • Reply 66 of 82
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    johnbear said:
    Intel please!
    Complete madness.   If Apple didn't have the ARM switch in process they should have switched to AMD a year ago.   Intel ships crap requiring mitigation work almost every other week.
  • Reply 67 of 82
    jharner said:
    If macOS for ARM does not support the UNIX side, then the Mac in STEM will be dead. If macOS for ARM does not support a hypervisor for Docker, etc., then the Mac in STEM will be on life support. The data sciences are moving to containerization with Docker, Singularity, etc. and support of these technologies will be critical. Now, lack of support for CUDA is a big problem. In principal, Docker on ARM is supported, but it will be tricky even if Apple supports it. I would hate to think of moving to Windows Subsystem for Linux.
    macOS is a Unix like system. The Change of the cpu don‘t change this.

    Docker Desktop uses HyperKit instead of Virtual Box. Hyperkit is a lightweight macOS virtualization solution built on top of Hypervisor.framework in macOS 10.10 Yosemite and higher.

    Since it is based on a macOS framework it will likely run docker anyway. 
    Question would be if you have to use docker containers that are built for arm or if the hypervisor will be able to emulate x64.

    Anyway for the target group this wont even matter as I guess intel macs will be with us a bit longer.
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 68 of 82
    palegolaspalegolas Posts: 1,361member
    It’ll be interesting to see how Apple is scaling their ARM processors. Like... will there be more cores, or processors working in pairs, quad arrangements etc. Will there be integrated Thunderbolt 3, like on the Intel motherboards. What memory will they be using? How will an A processor fair with 32GB of RAM with a much higher level of multitasking typically done on a computer. How will it tackle demanding software such as 4K video editing and compositing, 3D modelling and rendering...
    Better power efficiency, smaller size, and “controlling the whole chain” aside... if Apple can’t stand there at a keynote and say it’s 10x faster than their previous processors, I don’t think they would do it. There’s gotta be a motivation for the users in it too.
    I’m looking forward to a really powerful new era.
    mattinozmacplusplus
  • Reply 69 of 82
    eriamjheriamjh Posts: 1,631member
    jcc said:
    This is going to suck. Most of you Millenials are too young to remember the Motorola days. Those were some dark days when you found out that the most popular software was not compatible with the Mac. It's kind of like the Discover card. The only thing you discover with the Discover card is that no one takes it.
    Except everyone takes Discover Card. Analogy failure.
    There was a time when discover was new and few took it.   90s, maybe.  So it’s appropriate.  

    The PPC fo Intel transition was smooth for 90% of the users, and 100% of those who pretty much used it for surfing and email and iLife.   It only got hairy for those weird apps that used plug-ins and anything that talked to hardware.  I still have a printer and scanner built (and shortly dropped, meaning no driver updates) for PPC.   I guess it sucked trying to find fixes for those things.  

    The speed improvements were immediate.  Benchmarks showed the Intel machines trounced the flaunted G5 machines and Rosetta worked great.   

    The big sum was how quickly Apple dropped support.  Two to three years later, MacOS updates ceased for the PPC when leopard was launched.   Developers somewhat quickly followed. 

    Apple is much higher now and has a much bigger installed based.   Hopefully, it won’t leave the, behind as quickly this time.  
  • Reply 70 of 82
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    eriamjh said:
    jcc said:
    This is going to suck. Most of you Millenials are too young to remember the Motorola days. Those were some dark days when you found out that the most popular software was not compatible with the Mac. It's kind of like the Discover card. The only thing you discover with the Discover card is that no one takes it.
    Except everyone takes Discover Card. Analogy failure.
    There was a time when discover was new and few took it.   90s, maybe.  So it’s appropriate.  

    The PPC fo Intel transition was smooth for 90% of the users, and 100% of those who pretty much used it for surfing and email and iLife.   It only got hairy for those weird apps that used plug-ins and anything that talked to hardware.  I still have a printer and scanner built (and shortly dropped, meaning no driver updates) for PPC.   I guess it sucked trying to find fixes for those things.  

    The speed improvements were immediate.  Benchmarks showed the Intel machines trounced the flaunted G5 machines and Rosetta worked great.   

    The big sum was how quickly Apple dropped support.  Two to three years later, MacOS updates ceased for the PPC when leopard was launched.   Developers somewhat quickly followed. 

    Apple is much higher now and has a much bigger installed based.   Hopefully, it won’t leave the, behind as quickly this time.  

    I guess that was both a good and a bad....
    I was trained on IBM mainframes where two rules contributed greatly to their reputation of being totally reliable and essentially bullet proof:
    1)   Application software talked ONLY to the OS (MVS)
    2)   Data and application software never mixed.  Each was stored, loaded and run separately.

    Those 2 rules rules still make sense to me today.   But, they cut down on the flexibility and power of PC based application software.
  • Reply 71 of 82
    frantisekfrantisek Posts: 756member
    entropys said:
    I wonder how it could be priced? Spec out an iPad Pro with a magic keyboard and pencil and price wise you are already in very painful territory.  
    How will they price an arm MacBook so it doesn’t hurt ipad Pro? Make it gutless?

    or make it amazingly powerful and price accordingly above intel chipped MBPs?

    How much can Apple save by using own integrated silicon compare Intel CPU/GPU? Will they save on some other HW that will not be needed. I have no knowledge there.
    Is there change that Battery can be smaller so Macbook even slimmer or have more ports as people ask? Will Tim pull it like bookmark from his diary? :D  Envelope would not be cool already.

  • Reply 72 of 82
    kamiltonkamilton Posts: 282member
    I think we can expect a 12ish inch form factor with built in G5 cellar capabilities.  It’ll be one sweet little machine that does everything a student/consumer needs.  

    We’re also at the end of the present MacBook Pro form factors.  Let’s hope the next generation rocks the lead taken with latest Mac Pro = A bit heavier, more industrial and chock full of IO.  
  • Reply 73 of 82
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 6,858administrator
    kamilton said:
    I think we can expect a 12ish inch form factor with built in G5 cellar capabilities.  It’ll be one sweet little machine that does everything a student/consumer needs.  

    We’re also at the end of the present MacBook Pro form factors.  Let’s hope the next generation rocks the lead taken with latest Mac Pro = A bit heavier, more industrial and chock full of IO.  
    There is about no chance of that happening on the MBP. Apple has made it clear at this point.
  • Reply 74 of 82
    morkymorky Posts: 200member
    jharner said:
    If macOS for ARM does not support the UNIX side, then the Mac in STEM will be dead. If macOS for ARM does not support a hypervisor for Docker, etc., then the Mac in STEM will be on life support. The data sciences are moving to containerization with Docker, Singularity, etc. and support of these technologies will be critical. Now, lack of support for CUDA is a big problem. In principal, Docker on ARM is supported, but it will be tricky even if Apple supports it. I would hate to think of moving to Windows Subsystem for Linux.
    It will be the exact same OS compiled for ARM. There will be no difference in UNIX support.
    tht
  • Reply 75 of 82
    morkymorky Posts: 200member
    elijahg said:
    I’m thinking about getting a MacBook for someone - but really not sure about switching to ARM with all the incompatibility (again) and lack of Windows. My apprehension is how long will it be before Photoshop/MS word will be native, and whilst they aren’t, whether there will be some form of emulation such as Rosetta as there was for PPC apps. It’s relatively efficient for a CISC CPU (such as Intel’s) to emulate A RISC (PPC/ARM) CPU, but emulating a CISC CPU on a RISC CPU is very slow - as anyone who ran VirtualPC on a PPC will know.

    That said, anything from the App Store will be native because Xcode produces object code that App Store compiles onto the correct architecture for the machine, so a reasonable number of apps will be native from day 1. Not that that helps me much, I have a grand total of 0 non Apple apps from the MAS, and about 25 I use regularly from other sources. I prefer the non-MAS apps because they don't have the "all our customers are thick" sandboxing that the MAS apps do.

    It’ll be interesting to see whether Apple reduces the price of the Macs to correspond to the much cheaper ARM CPUs, I bet they won’t. 

    Most likely, at least for the initial models, ARM processors will be used mostly in the consumer grade models whose customers have little need for expensive high-end video processing or CAD software.   They just want to browse the web, type their paper, do some Zooming, get their email and play some music while they do it.

    At least for some period of time the there will still be a need for the power of I7, I9 & Xeon type processors with external GPUs beyond simple compatibility.

    It remains to be seen what Apple will do to address the pro market with ARM. The A-series are all designed for thermally constrained, fanless systems and yet they seem to perform on par with the Intel chips in the MacBook Pro. In a Mac, they design ARM processors with larger dies and run at higher clock speeds and temperatures. They can also build common functions specific to their compiler into silicon. Might not be able to keep up with Xeons out of the gate, but we'll see. 
  • Reply 76 of 82
    jdb8167jdb8167 Posts: 626member
    This is pretty huge news for Intel and not in a good way:  Jim Keller to Depart Intel. Keller was kind of the last hope for Intel’s recovery. I think they may be in very bad trouble if he wasn’t willing to stay. He was there from April 2018 until today. Probably not enough time to make any real progress on Intel’s issues.
  • Reply 77 of 82
    Apple will enter into a new and unique realm of consumer computational tech which will quickly be recognised for what it is: Apple Fascistech. 
    Their Fascistech range will further isolate all Apple users from what should become an agnostic collective of fully interoperable hard and software.

    The prices Apple will charge for their increasingly apartheid take on Personal Baasskap Computing will mirror the very worst expressions of delusional social supremacy and bring a rotting empire down around their ears.

    Nothing is too big to fail.
  • Reply 78 of 82
    mattinozmattinoz Posts: 2,299member
    jdb8167 said:
    This is pretty huge news for Intel and not in a good way:  Jim Keller to Depart Intel. Keller was kind of the last hope for Intel’s recovery. I think they may be in very bad trouble if he wasn’t willing to stay. He was there from April 2018 until today. Probably not enough time to make any real progress on Intel’s issues.

    Also from the Day before.

  • Reply 79 of 82
    jdb8167jdb8167 Posts: 626member
    mattinoz said:
    jdb8167 said:
    This is pretty huge news for Intel and not in a good way:  Jim Keller to Depart Intel. Keller was kind of the last hope for Intel’s recovery. I think they may be in very bad trouble if he wasn’t willing to stay. He was there from April 2018 until today. Probably not enough time to make any real progress on Intel’s issues.

    Also from the Day before.

    Weird design. It has one high performance i5 or i3 core and 4 Atom low power/performance cores. Seems like an odd combination when you are competing with 4 high performance cores and 4 low power/performance cores in the A12X. I realize they aren’t competing directly but still the comparisons are inevitable and they won’t be kind to Intel. I haven’t seen any benchmarks on the Tremont low power cores but I can’t imagine they are very fast.
  • Reply 80 of 82
    mattinozmattinoz Posts: 2,299member
    jdb8167 said:
    mattinoz said:
    jdb8167 said:
    This is pretty huge news for Intel and not in a good way:  Jim Keller to Depart Intel. Keller was kind of the last hope for Intel’s recovery. I think they may be in very bad trouble if he wasn’t willing to stay. He was there from April 2018 until today. Probably not enough time to make any real progress on Intel’s issues.

    Also from the Day before.

    Weird design. It has one high performance i5 or i3 core and 4 Atom low power/performance cores. Seems like an odd combination when you are competing with 4 high performance cores and 4 low power/performance cores in the A12X. I realize they aren’t competing directly but still the comparisons are inevitable and they won’t be kind to Intel. I haven’t seen any benchmarks on the Tremont low power cores but I can’t imagine they are very fast.
    I think the point is the building blocks that let the customer put together the features that suit without having a unified die for each level. Not the actual combo they are showing. The same team has in the past been very willing to use any Intel IP with any other chips they can source. 

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