to heal them, you'd have to bring back 500.000 dead...
To "heal" the sanctinos you'd have to live in a fantasy world where one "heals" policy decisions.
To end them we need war. Thanks for agreeing.
bunge:
Quote:
Did we really need war to get rid of the sanctions?
All roads lead to Saddam's ouster.
Remove sanctions with Saddam in power and say hello to nuclear/biological/chemical weapon proliferation.
We should've gotten Saddam in '91. We're merely taking care of unfinished business right now. A bit more complicated, but that's what it boils down to.
I tend to read publications from many sources, and as far as I can tell the anly ones that back up claims with statisics show that the war is actually a humanitarian action in the respect that an unopposed Saddam is a deadly Saddam. . . To his own people.
I detest confilct when avoidable, but there are times when you've gotta bite the bullet and just do it. For some reason i don't think non-UK Europe can understand this. They tried to appease Hilter well... There's a cultural gap that I don't think will fill up.
I tend to read publications from many sources, and as far as I can tell the anly ones that back up claims with statisics show that the war is actually a humanitarian action in the respect that an unopposed Saddam is a deadly Saddam. . . To his own people.
I detest confilct when avoidable, but there are times when you've gotta bite the bullet and just do it. For some reason i don't think non-UK Europe can understand this. They tried to appease Hilter well... There's a cultural gap that I don't think will fill up.
Wrong, Chamberlain from the UK headed the appeasement with Hitler... Most of Europe suffered a lot from the war.
The statistics are from the BBC, they are not confirmed.
Eugene: you find it funny that a soldier died from "friendly fire" coming from an A-10? You're an idiot. Here's the first hand account of that event that you find so funny.
Lance Corporal of Horse Steven Gerrard, 33
Another survivor said that he had stumbled out of the burning wreckage of his light tank and waved frantically to the pilot of the low-flying A10 to try to halt his ?friendly fire? as he returned to attack again.
The blunder, 35 miles north of Basra, left one soldier missing, presumed dead, and another in intensive care on the hospital ship RFA Argus. A sixth Household Cavalry soldier escaped without injury when the two Scimitar light tanks were destroyed.
Lieutenant Alex MacEwen, 25, Lance Corporal of Horse Steven Gerrard, 33, and Trooper Chris Finney, 18, were flown home last night with shrapnel wounds and burns. Before leaving the Argus they spoke of their bewilderment and anger that, despite flying very low over their heads, the A10 pilot apparently failed to recognize the coalition identification markings on their British-made tanks. Another vehicle in the five-strong convoy patrolling the marshes near the meeting of the Euphrates and Shatt al-Arab rivers bore a large Union Jack.
?All this kit has been provided by the Americans. They?ve said if you put this kit on you won?t get shot,? LCoH Gerrard said from his hospital bed on the Argus. ?We can identify a friendly vehicle from 1,500 meters, yet you?ve got an A10 with advanced technology and he can?t use a thermal sight to identify whether a tank is a friend or foe. It?s ridiculous.
?Combat is what I?ve been trained for. I can command my vehicle. I can keep it from being attacked. What I have not been trained to do is look over my shoulder to see whether an American is shooting at me.?
LCoH Gerrard, the commander of the leading tank, described ?frightened and curious? villagers waving white flags. ?I stuck my hand up and waved at them. I could see they were frightened. I felt sorry for them.? Suddenly, LcoH Gerrard heard the distinctive, relentless roar of an A10?s anti-tank gunfire. ?I will never forget that noise as long as I live. It is a noise I never want to hear again,? he said.
?There was no gap between the bullets. I heard it and I froze. The next thing I knew the turret was erupting with white light everywhere, heat and smoke. I didn?t even have time to close my eyes or blink. I don?t know why I?ve still got hair or eyebrows.
?I felt I was going to burn to death. I just shouted, ?Reverse, reverse, reverse?. My headset had come off. My gunner was screaming, ?Get out, get out.? I was out of the turret in milliseconds. How I got out of that hole I don?t know. Then I saw the A10 coming again and I just ran.
?I?ll never forget that A10. He was about 50 meters off the ground. He circled, because he can turn on a ten-pence. He came back around. He was no more than 1,000 meters away when he started his attack run. He was about 500 meters away when he started firing.
?On the back of one of the engineers? vehicles there was a Union Jack. It?s about 18 inches wide by about 12 inches. For him to fire his weapons I believe he had to look through his magnified optics. How he could not see that Union Jack I don?t know. It was like Platoon. I was stood there on a little bank 25 meters away from my tank waving.?
The front two Scimitars, packed with ammunition, grenades, rifle rounds and diesel tanks, exploded into flames. Lance Corporal of Horse Matty Hull, 25, did not escape.
Trooper Finney was injured when the A10 returned for a second run. He said: ?The plane came over again and it started shooting. I saw sparks coming from the ground or my leg. It didn?t hurt, it felt like someone had kicked me in the back of my leg. I felt warm down the back of my leg. Blood was spurting everywhere. I thought I was dead.?
LCoH Gerrard criticized the A10 for shooting when there were civilians so close to the tanks. He said: ?There was a boy of about 12 years old. He was no more than 20 meters away when the Yank opened up. There were all these civilians around. He had absolutely no regard for human life. I believe he was a cowboy.
?There were four or five that I noticed earlier and this one had broken off and was on his own when he attacked us. He?d just gone out on a jolly.
? I?m curious about what?s going to happen to the pilot. He?s killed one of my friends and he?s killed him on the second run.?
Lieutenant MacEwen described how he saw the A10 return after he stumbled, burning, from his flaming tank and ran for the cover of a reed bed on the marshes. ?There was a horrible smell of what I though was something burning, but then I discovered it was a bit of my own eyebrows. That lingered with me for a good hour or two.?
End of quote.
Yeah, that A-10 pilot must have become "desoriented" by the Union Jack or the coalition insignias, or the Brits waving their arms frantically, or the 12 year old kid close to the armored vehicles or maybe all those white flags eh Eugene?
That A-10 pilot screwed up BIG TIME. He should undergo a thorough evaluation and should he pass it, a lot more training.
You know what's ironic? this is how the article ended.
He added: ?After this I am quite pleased to be going home. ?Blue-on-blue? has always been one of my biggest fears. It is something that my friends and family joked about. ?Don?t worry about the Iraqis, it?s the Americans you want to watch.? The proof is in the pudding really.?
Eugene: you find it funny that a soldier died from "friendly fire" coming from an A-10? You're an idiot. Here's the first hand account of that event that you find so funny.
I didn't say I found it funny; irony isn't alway humous. I said I found it ironic because this verbal abuse toward the American pilot comes right after news that a British tank commander blew up a tank that was the exact same type he was in.
So the Brit is probably getting sympathy while the American gets unbridled verbal abuse because of their nationalities? How sad.
There is a code that one should follow which is to try like heck to not kill those that are not the enemy. However, you do not do so at the risk of your own life, if you do, you will almost assuredly lose that war.
That's assinine. If the military can't be responsible enough to preserve the lives of the civilians then they shouldn't be there.
War has a different morality than day to day life? That's just not true.
War has a different morality than day to day life? That's just not true.
Its very true. War is not day to day life. Big surprise there. Bunge sometimes I think you live some fantasy land with ponies and rainbows. A beatiful land where ideals grow on trees.
War is waged to win, a means to a very serious end. It is our moral obligation to avoid as much collateral damage yes, but to sit there and posture that we should be willing to sacrifice 10 troops for 1 civilian is just about the stupidest trolling thing I've seen you post in awhile.
Its very true. War is not day to day life. Big surprise there...War is waged to win, a means to a very serious end. It is our moral obligation to avoid as much collateral damage yes, but to sit there and posture that we should be willing to sacrifice 10 troops for 1 civilian is just about the stupidest trolling thing I've seen you post in awhile.
No one is saying that war is the same as day to day life. It's the morality of war that's in question. I believe that NoahJ's claim that a soldier shouldn't risk his or her life for a civilian is wrong.
No, the question was "do you really think that?". I made no indication that I did so I corrected your faulty, assumptive logic.
Is war needed to end sanctions? No, the ouster of Saddam Hussein is needed to end sanctions. That has been the only real stick in the mud. Is war needed to oust Saddam Hussein? Obviously, yes.
Eugene: maybe you missed the part about the A-10 killing and injuring the others on HIS SECOND RUN? Quite a bit of a difference there.
Since you are pretending(at least I hope you are), to be that dense, I'll explain it to you. The A-10 had TWO chances to avoid firing at an ally, and he still did....ON HIS SECOND RUN.
Great comeback. just like all the other 'anti war' people. I notice that almost all 'anti war' people are anti just about everything, including knowing what they are talking about..
No one is saying that war is the same as day to day life. It's the morality of war that's in question. I believe that NoahJ's claim that a soldier shouldn't risk his or her life for a civilian is wrong.
That is almost exactly what you said sir, unless youa re saying tha tyou were wrong when you said:
War has a different morality than day to day life? That's just not true.
The circumstances in war preclude normal morality. A soldier is there to win a war and to defend his own countrymen. When they get too caught up in keeping enemy cilvilians safe you get situations like the taxi that blew up the Army checkpoint. Then you see the opposite extreme with the van that tried to run the checkpoint and they shot it up. Sadly that was full of women and children. Stupid move on the civilians part, and a bad move on the soldiers part. However, I do not blame them for firing at the van. Do you? (rhetorical question, I know you do.)
How else does one oust Saddam Hussein and how does that balance with war in terms of human costs and impact?
It is not about reality and actual costs. It is about what his fantasy world is all about. Everyone should have a dream. However, they should not live their lives there and pretend that everyone else does as well. \
Comments
to heal them, you'd have to bring back 500.000 dead...
To "heal" the sanctinos you'd have to live in a fantasy world where one "heals" policy decisions.
To end them we need war. Thanks for agreeing.
bunge:
Did we really need war to get rid of the sanctions?
All roads lead to Saddam's ouster.
Remove sanctions with Saddam in power and say hello to nuclear/biological/chemical weapon proliferation.
We should've gotten Saddam in '91. We're merely taking care of unfinished business right now. A bit more complicated, but that's what it boils down to.
Originally posted by groverat
To "heal" the sanctinos you'd have to live in a fantasy world where one "heals" policy decisions.
To end them we need war.
So you really think war is needed to end the sanctions?
Or are the Sanctinos some new group of latin american immigrants sent of to war to prove their patriotism?
I detest confilct when avoidable, but there are times when you've gotta bite the bullet and just do it. For some reason i don't think non-UK Europe can understand this. They tried to appease Hilter well... There's a cultural gap that I don't think will fill up.
Originally posted by Splinemodel
I tend to read publications from many sources, and as far as I can tell the anly ones that back up claims with statisics show that the war is actually a humanitarian action in the respect that an unopposed Saddam is a deadly Saddam. . . To his own people.
I detest confilct when avoidable, but there are times when you've gotta bite the bullet and just do it. For some reason i don't think non-UK Europe can understand this. They tried to appease Hilter well... There's a cultural gap that I don't think will fill up.
Wrong, Chamberlain from the UK headed the appeasement with Hitler... Most of Europe suffered a lot from the war.
The statistics are from the BBC, they are not confirmed.
Lance Corporal of Horse Steven Gerrard, 33
Another survivor said that he had stumbled out of the burning wreckage of his light tank and waved frantically to the pilot of the low-flying A10 to try to halt his ?friendly fire? as he returned to attack again.
The blunder, 35 miles north of Basra, left one soldier missing, presumed dead, and another in intensive care on the hospital ship RFA Argus. A sixth Household Cavalry soldier escaped without injury when the two Scimitar light tanks were destroyed.
Lieutenant Alex MacEwen, 25, Lance Corporal of Horse Steven Gerrard, 33, and Trooper Chris Finney, 18, were flown home last night with shrapnel wounds and burns. Before leaving the Argus they spoke of their bewilderment and anger that, despite flying very low over their heads, the A10 pilot apparently failed to recognize the coalition identification markings on their British-made tanks. Another vehicle in the five-strong convoy patrolling the marshes near the meeting of the Euphrates and Shatt al-Arab rivers bore a large Union Jack.
?All this kit has been provided by the Americans. They?ve said if you put this kit on you won?t get shot,? LCoH Gerrard said from his hospital bed on the Argus. ?We can identify a friendly vehicle from 1,500 meters, yet you?ve got an A10 with advanced technology and he can?t use a thermal sight to identify whether a tank is a friend or foe. It?s ridiculous.
?Combat is what I?ve been trained for. I can command my vehicle. I can keep it from being attacked. What I have not been trained to do is look over my shoulder to see whether an American is shooting at me.?
LCoH Gerrard, the commander of the leading tank, described ?frightened and curious? villagers waving white flags. ?I stuck my hand up and waved at them. I could see they were frightened. I felt sorry for them.? Suddenly, LcoH Gerrard heard the distinctive, relentless roar of an A10?s anti-tank gunfire. ?I will never forget that noise as long as I live. It is a noise I never want to hear again,? he said.
?There was no gap between the bullets. I heard it and I froze. The next thing I knew the turret was erupting with white light everywhere, heat and smoke. I didn?t even have time to close my eyes or blink. I don?t know why I?ve still got hair or eyebrows.
?I felt I was going to burn to death. I just shouted, ?Reverse, reverse, reverse?. My headset had come off. My gunner was screaming, ?Get out, get out.? I was out of the turret in milliseconds. How I got out of that hole I don?t know. Then I saw the A10 coming again and I just ran.
?I?ll never forget that A10. He was about 50 meters off the ground. He circled, because he can turn on a ten-pence. He came back around. He was no more than 1,000 meters away when he started his attack run. He was about 500 meters away when he started firing.
?On the back of one of the engineers? vehicles there was a Union Jack. It?s about 18 inches wide by about 12 inches. For him to fire his weapons I believe he had to look through his magnified optics. How he could not see that Union Jack I don?t know. It was like Platoon. I was stood there on a little bank 25 meters away from my tank waving.?
The front two Scimitars, packed with ammunition, grenades, rifle rounds and diesel tanks, exploded into flames. Lance Corporal of Horse Matty Hull, 25, did not escape.
Trooper Finney was injured when the A10 returned for a second run. He said: ?The plane came over again and it started shooting. I saw sparks coming from the ground or my leg. It didn?t hurt, it felt like someone had kicked me in the back of my leg. I felt warm down the back of my leg. Blood was spurting everywhere. I thought I was dead.?
LCoH Gerrard criticized the A10 for shooting when there were civilians so close to the tanks. He said: ?There was a boy of about 12 years old. He was no more than 20 meters away when the Yank opened up. There were all these civilians around. He had absolutely no regard for human life. I believe he was a cowboy.
?There were four or five that I noticed earlier and this one had broken off and was on his own when he attacked us. He?d just gone out on a jolly.
? I?m curious about what?s going to happen to the pilot. He?s killed one of my friends and he?s killed him on the second run.?
Lieutenant MacEwen described how he saw the A10 return after he stumbled, burning, from his flaming tank and ran for the cover of a reed bed on the marshes. ?There was a horrible smell of what I though was something burning, but then I discovered it was a bit of my own eyebrows. That lingered with me for a good hour or two.?
End of quote.
Yeah, that A-10 pilot must have become "desoriented" by the Union Jack or the coalition insignias, or the Brits waving their arms frantically, or the 12 year old kid close to the armored vehicles or maybe all those white flags eh Eugene?
That A-10 pilot screwed up BIG TIME. He should undergo a thorough evaluation and should he pass it, a lot more training.
You know what's ironic? this is how the article ended.
He added: ?After this I am quite pleased to be going home. ?Blue-on-blue? has always been one of my biggest fears. It is something that my friends and family joked about. ?Don?t worry about the Iraqis, it?s the Americans you want to watch.? The proof is in the pudding really.?
Eugene: you find it funny that a soldier died from "friendly fire" coming from an A-10? You're an idiot. Here's the first hand account of that event that you find so funny.
I didn't say I found it funny; irony isn't alway humous. I said I found it ironic because this verbal abuse toward the American pilot comes right after news that a British tank commander blew up a tank that was the exact same type he was in.
So the Brit is probably getting sympathy while the American gets unbridled verbal abuse because of their nationalities? How sad.
Originally posted by NoahJ
There is a code that one should follow which is to try like heck to not kill those that are not the enemy. However, you do not do so at the risk of your own life, if you do, you will almost assuredly lose that war.
That's assinine. If the military can't be responsible enough to preserve the lives of the civilians then they shouldn't be there.
War has a different morality than day to day life? That's just not true.
Originally posted by bunge
War has a different morality than day to day life? That's just not true.
Its very true. War is not day to day life. Big surprise there. Bunge sometimes I think you live some fantasy land with ponies and rainbows. A beatiful land where ideals grow on trees.
War is waged to win, a means to a very serious end. It is our moral obligation to avoid as much collateral damage yes, but to sit there and posture that we should be willing to sacrifice 10 troops for 1 civilian is just about the stupidest trolling thing I've seen you post in awhile.
Originally posted by dviant
Its very true. War is not day to day life. Big surprise there...War is waged to win, a means to a very serious end. It is our moral obligation to avoid as much collateral damage yes, but to sit there and posture that we should be willing to sacrifice 10 troops for 1 civilian is just about the stupidest trolling thing I've seen you post in awhile.
No one is saying that war is the same as day to day life. It's the morality of war that's in question. I believe that NoahJ's claim that a soldier shouldn't risk his or her life for a civilian is wrong.
Originally posted by New
So you really think war is needed to end the sanctions?
Did I say that or did I say that war will end the sanctions?
Think hard now. Think very very hard.
Originally posted by groverat
Did I say that or did I say that war will end the sanctions?
Think hard now. Think very very hard.
of course they will end sanctions.
The question was Is it NEEDED to END sanctions?
Originally posted by New
The question was Is it NEEDED to END sanctions?
No, the question was "do you really think that?". I made no indication that I did so I corrected your faulty, assumptive logic.
Is war needed to end sanctions? No, the ouster of Saddam Hussein is needed to end sanctions. That has been the only real stick in the mud. Is war needed to oust Saddam Hussein? Obviously, yes.
Since you are pretending(at least I hope you are), to be that dense, I'll explain it to you. The A-10 had TWO chances to avoid firing at an ally, and he still did....ON HIS SECOND RUN.
Originally posted by groverat
Is war needed to oust Saddam Hussein? Obviously, yes.
That's a lie.
Originally posted by bunge
That's a lie.
Great comeback. just like all the other 'anti war' people. I notice that almost all 'anti war' people are anti just about everything, including knowing what they are talking about..
Originally posted by bunge
That's a lie.
Well I guess there was the option that the Iraqi people could rise up against him, hundreds of thousands of them dying in a most-likely failed coup.
I guess there was that option, too.
Originally posted by bunge
No one is saying that war is the same as day to day life. It's the morality of war that's in question. I believe that NoahJ's claim that a soldier shouldn't risk his or her life for a civilian is wrong.
That is almost exactly what you said sir, unless youa re saying tha tyou were wrong when you said:
War has a different morality than day to day life? That's just not true.
The circumstances in war preclude normal morality. A soldier is there to win a war and to defend his own countrymen. When they get too caught up in keeping enemy cilvilians safe you get situations like the taxi that blew up the Army checkpoint. Then you see the opposite extreme with the van that tried to run the checkpoint and they shot it up. Sadly that was full of women and children. Stupid move on the civilians part, and a bad move on the soldiers part. However, I do not blame them for firing at the van. Do you? (rhetorical question, I know you do.)
Originally posted by bunge
If someone is going to make a claim like that they should back it up. It's not even worded as an opinion, but as fact. That's a lie.
How else does one oust Saddam Hussein and how does that balance with war in terms of human costs and impact?
Originally posted by groverat
How else does one oust Saddam Hussein and how does that balance with war in terms of human costs and impact?
It is not about reality and actual costs. It is about what his fantasy world is all about. Everyone should have a dream. However, they should not live their lives there and pretend that everyone else does as well.