Microsoft fires back at Apple, accusing it of treating gaming apps differently

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  • Reply 21 of 56
    Rayz2016 said:

    red oak said:
    Microsoft is basically trying to create a gaming app store within Apple's App Store.   Why is it so complicated to understand that is not allowed?  


    Yup, what is not allowed is apps in the App Store that Apple hasn’t checked. It’s as simple as that. Not only would that introduce malware to the store, Apple would have no way of switching it off. 

    That malware scenario you're pushing is pure FUD.  XCloud is streaming the exact same games we already play on other devices.  Apple needs to check a stream of Gears of War as much as they need to check a stream of Stranger Things.  Besides, there are no app(s).  It's just one app.  
    edited August 2020 muthuk_vanalingamxyzzy01gatorguyelijahg
  • Reply 22 of 56
    red oakred oak Posts: 1,087member
    red oak said:
    Microsoft is basically trying to create a gaming app store within Apple's App Store.   Why is it so complicated to understand that is not allowed?  

    Android is 85% of the WW market.    Let's see how their launch goes there.   I'll bet you it goes down in flames 
    No they're not.  What they created is nothing like an app store.  In an app store, you buy and download things.  XCloud is a subscription streaming service like Netflix.  Ironically, Netflix will let you download whereas XCloud is streaming only.  But you get the point.  XCloud is nothing like an app store.  Netflix lets you stream thousands of programs.  XCloud lets you stream approx 100 games.  


    ————-

    This is nothing more than a sad  attempt to equate playing a highly interactive game with watching a passive video stream

    Let’s see if this service is even viable after its big Android launch.  We’ll all know in 6 months 


    edited August 2020 Beats
  • Reply 23 of 56
    Does xCloud allow the purchase of games, or is that something you do on Xbox Live or whatever and then stream the games via xCloud?

    The difference between streaming movies or music and streaming games I think is that the game is essentially an app, so Apple cannot whet it before it reaches the consumer.

    There probably will be some way to tackle this issue in the future. 

    I think Apple knows that Microsoft's streaming games may not really be malicious by intent (bad seeds can come into play, though), but if they allow xCloud, then they would need to open the floodgates to all players, some of who may not be as "clean". 


    So, for better or worse, Apple is saying "no" to all. In Microsoft's own words, at least Apple is "consistent" in this regard. 
    digital_guyMacQcaderutterroundaboutnowBeats
  • Reply 24 of 56
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 6,957member
    Rayz2016 said:
    danvm said:
    Beats said:
    genovelle said:
    I agree with Microsoft on this, but Apple (if they say anything) will probably argue they are not a general purpose platform and instead compare themselves to the Xbox store. I really wish Apple would see iOS as the post-PC platform for everything.
    When you have 1.7 million apps on your platform, you don't get the pleasure or the privilege of saying you're not a general purpose platform.  If they did, that would be a BS argument.  MS is the only competitor that has the size and economic clout to go after Apple on this and I'm glad that they're raising the issue regarding Apple's dogmatic handling of the App Store.
    Apple is on point here. If you want to play on our platform play by our rules. I may be wrong, but I’m sure Microsoft is not letting Sony games stream to Xbox. Microsoft can’t be trusted. Why would they undermine their own development platform? If game developers were wooed to this and stopped developing for iOS directly, it would make us dependent on Microsoft like we were for the first Macintosh. Then when Microsoft looses interest like the tend to do, the platform would suffer. 

    Microsoft wants special treatment that is all.
    MS just want their service in iOS devices, that is all.
    Apple just wants to prevent an app from streaming malware all over their ecosystem, that’s all. 
    Do you have evidence that xCloud is malware? Yeah. I didn't think so.

    I didn't say that xCloud was malware.

    The problem is that Apple can't check the apps that are being streamed through xCloud. They could be malware. 

    Clear enough?
    MacQcbarthrhroundaboutnowBeats
  • Reply 25 of 56
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 6,957member

    red oak said:
    Microsoft is basically trying to create a gaming app store within Apple's App Store.   Why is it so complicated to understand that is not allowed?  

    Android is 85% of the WW market.    Let's see how their launch goes there.   I'll bet you it goes down in flames 
    This isn't any different than Netflix trying to create a video content store or Amazon trying to create a Kindle book store on Apple's App Store. Yet they're allowed.

    No, not clear enough. Let's try again.

    Netflix and Amazon are streaming content through their apps.
    Microsoft wants to stream other apps through their app.
    Apple doesn't check content. 
    Apple does check every app that goes onto an iDevice.
    If the app is streamed, they can't check it.

    Here's the relevant paragraph from the review rules:

    • You may offer a single subscription that is shared across your own apps and services, but these subscriptions may not extend to third-party apps or services. Games offered in a game subscription must be owned or exclusively licensed by the developer (e.g. not part of a game publishing platform). Each game must be downloaded directly from the App Store, must be designed to avoid duplicate payment by a subscriber, and should not disadvantage non-subscriber customers.
    First of all, the games coming through xCloud are not owned by Microsoft, and secondly, more importantly, they're not downloaded directly from the app store. 
    edited August 2020 digital_guysomewhereouttheretmayMacQcpscooter63aderutterroundaboutnowBeats
  • Reply 26 of 56
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 6,957member
    Rayz2016 said:

    red oak said:
    Microsoft is basically trying to create a gaming app store within Apple's App Store.   Why is it so complicated to understand that is not allowed?  


    Yup, what is not allowed is apps in the App Store that Apple hasn’t checked. It’s as simple as that. Not only would that introduce malware to the store, Apple would have no way of switching it off. 

    That malware scenario you're pushing is pure FUD.  XCloud is streaming the exact same games we already play on other devices.  Apple needs to check a stream of Gears of War as much as they need to check a stream of Stranger Things.  Besides, there are no app(s).  It's just one app.  


    Well, we have just had a demonstration where Microsoft Office on the Mac was repurposed to push malware onto the Apple platform by running macros. Obviously, Apple cannot check every single macro that is created through Office.

    Anything streamed can be potentially turned into a threat, with enough smarts and enough motivation. Apple is unique in that its platform is home to the most valuable mobile customers on the planet; that's the motivation. And this is why Microsoft says it is "committed" to finding a solution. The Apple customer base is too valuable for them to ignore, and Apple knows they know that.

    Yup, a Stranger Things stream could cause a buffer overrun due to a bug in the operating system. (I believe there was a case where a text message sent to an iPhone could cause it to restart), so Apple's job here is to minimise the risk as far as possible.


    edited August 2020 aderutterroundaboutnowBeats
  • Reply 27 of 56
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 6,957member

    Does xCloud allow the purchase of games, or is that something you do on Xbox Live or whatever and then stream the games via xCloud?

    The difference between streaming movies or music and streaming games I think is that the game is essentially an app, so Apple cannot whet it before it reaches the consumer.

    There probably will be some way to tackle this issue in the future. 

    I think Apple knows that Microsoft's streaming games may not really be malicious by intent (bad seeds can come into play, though), but if they allow xCloud, then they would need to open the floodgates to all players, some of who may not be as "clean". 


    So, for better or worse, Apple is saying "no" to all. In Microsoft's own words, at least Apple is "consistent" in this regard. 

    Yes, the problem isn't xCloud. The problem is that Apple doesn't know what is coming down through xCloud. And as you say, then they'd have to let everyone do it.


    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/project-xcloud-price-how-it-works-and-what-games-you-can-play/ar-BB10MtMu

    In a sentence, Project xCloud is Xbox's rival to Google Stadia and PS Now. Unlike Xbox Console Streaming, which is more akin to PS4 Remote Play in that they both mirror your home consoles exactly as they are, dashboard and all, xCloud is a standalone platform with its own games library and doesn't interact with your console at all. Instead, it allows players to stream games from Microsoft's cloud.



    aderutterroundaboutnowBeats
  • Reply 28 of 56
    CheeseFreezeCheeseFreeze Posts: 1,247member
    sflocal said:
    genovelle said:
    I agree with Microsoft on this, but Apple (if they say anything) will probably argue they are not a general purpose platform and instead compare themselves to the Xbox store. I really wish Apple would see iOS as the post-PC platform for everything.
    When you have 1.7 million apps on your platform, you don't get the pleasure or the privilege of saying you're not a general purpose platform.  If they did, that would be a BS argument.  MS is the only competitor that has the size and economic clout to go after Apple on this and I'm glad that they're raising the issue regarding Apple's dogmatic handling of the App Store.
    Apple is on point here. If you want to play on our platform play by our rules. I may be wrong, but I’m sure Microsoft is not letting Sony games stream to Xbox. Microsoft can’t be trusted. Why would they undermine their own development platform? If game developers were wooed to this and stopped developing for iOS directly, it would make us dependent on Microsoft like we were for the first Macintosh. Then when Microsoft looses interest like the tend to do, the platform would suffer. 
    Exactly.  Microsoft is being a hypocrite when one realizes Microsoft is (arguably) even more stringent about the Xbox Live store.  
    Yeah but they obviously realize that their argument can be used against them in a heartbeat. So if they are willing to do this, they are willing to become more flexible when the same argument is used against MS in court. Before they send out a press notice like that, it has gone passed several layers of legal.

    The real problem here is sheer size. The Apple App Store has become too successful and too large. No other company has what Apple has on a mobile platform. 
    edited August 2020 Gaby
  • Reply 29 of 56
    qwerty52qwerty52 Posts: 367member
    Rayz2016 said:
    danvm said:
    Beats said:
    genovelle said:
    I agree with Microsoft on this, but Apple (if they say anything) will probably argue they are not a general purpose platform and instead compare themselves to the Xbox store. I really wish Apple would see iOS as the post-PC platform for everything.
    When you have 1.7 million apps on your platform, you don't get the pleasure or the privilege of saying you're not a general purpose platform.  If they did, that would be a BS argument.  MS is the only competitor that has the size and economic clout to go after Apple on this and I'm glad that they're raising the issue regarding Apple's dogmatic handling of the App Store.
    Apple is on point here. If you want to play on our platform play by our rules. I may be wrong, but I’m sure Microsoft is not letting Sony games stream to Xbox. Microsoft can’t be trusted. Why would they undermine their own development platform? If game developers were wooed to this and stopped developing for iOS directly, it would make us dependent on Microsoft like we were for the first Macintosh. Then when Microsoft looses interest like the tend to do, the platform would suffer. 

    Microsoft wants special treatment that is all.
    MS just want their service in iOS devices, that is all.
    Apple just wants to prevent an app from streaming malware all over their ecosystem, that’s all. 
    Exactly! Also from the very begin, there is a principal different approach from the two companies about gaming,. Microsoft chose to work on streaming platform, Apple not. If Apple was also working on streaming platform for their AppStore games, then maybe Microsoft could have reason to complain. 
    But now it seems to me like this: I do not want to sell any potatoes in my store, but somebody comes in and says - “ I want you, to sell my potatoes in your store “ And af course, complaining afterwards because of my refuse.
    tmayBeats
  • Reply 30 of 56
    qwerty52qwerty52 Posts: 367member
    As Microsoft is complaining so furious, it only proofs how desperately they want to get in to AppStore.
    Beats
  • Reply 31 of 56
    Rayz2016 said:
    Rayz2016 said:

    red oak said:
    Microsoft is basically trying to create a gaming app store within Apple's App Store.   Why is it so complicated to understand that is not allowed?  


    Yup, what is not allowed is apps in the App Store that Apple hasn’t checked. It’s as simple as that. Not only would that introduce malware to the store, Apple would have no way of switching it off. 

    That malware scenario you're pushing is pure FUD.  XCloud is streaming the exact same games we already play on other devices.  Apple needs to check a stream of Gears of War as much as they need to check a stream of Stranger Things.  Besides, there are no app(s).  It's just one app.  


    Well, we have just had a demonstration where Microsoft Office on the Mac was repurposed to push malware onto the Apple platform by running macros. Obviously, Apple cannot check every single macro that is created through Office.

    Anything streamed can be potentially turned into a threat, with enough smarts and enough motivation. Apple is unique in that its platform is home to the most valuable mobile customers on the planet; that's the motivation. And this is why Microsoft says it is "committed" to finding a solution. The Apple customer base is too valuable for them to ignore, and Apple knows they know that.

    Yup, a Stranger Things stream could cause a buffer overrun due to a bug in the operating system. (I believe there was a case where a text message sent to an iPhone could cause it to restart), so Apple's job here is to minimise the risk as far as possible.


    Still FUD.  MS Office is a program that is intended to be accessed by end users.  It wasn't repurposed. ← That's simply you trying to build on that faulty narrative.  It's also entirely unrelated.  End users have no access to XCloud games to be able to do anything you trying to imply.  Apple doesn't review Netflix movies for the same reason they don't need to review a copy Call of Duty.  It's unnecessary. 
  • Reply 32 of 56
    mjtomlinmjtomlin Posts: 2,673member
    Apple has never allowed code to be downloaded and executed in any 3rd party iOS app - this is the easiest method of how systems are attacked by malicious code.

    Steve Jobs was also adamant about not allowing 3rd party RTE's on their platform because they had the potential of holding back users ability to upgrade the OS, thus keeping the entire platform from being able to move forward - it's the biggest reason why Apple is able to push a vast majority of their user base to the newest release of their operating systems.

    This is why any developer who makes a web browser cannot use their own web "engine" and must use the built-in Webkit engine for DOM rendering and javascript execution. This is also why Flash or Silverlight or any kind of gaming console emulation apps never appeared in the App Store. And it is the same reason Microsoft cannot have their gaming streaming service on iOS.
    edited August 2020 tmayaderutterroundaboutnowBeats
  • Reply 33 of 56
    MacQcMacQc Posts: 14member

    Ultimately, it is Apple’s store. They have built it. What the fuzz about their rules? You don’t like it, you go elsewhere. You have other choices. 

    aderutterBeats
  • Reply 34 of 56
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,309member
    Rayz2016 said:
    Rayz2016 said:

    red oak said:
    Microsoft is basically trying to create a gaming app store within Apple's App Store.   Why is it so complicated to understand that is not allowed?  


    Yup, what is not allowed is apps in the App Store that Apple hasn’t checked. It’s as simple as that. Not only would that introduce malware to the store, Apple would have no way of switching it off. 

    That malware scenario you're pushing is pure FUD.  XCloud is streaming the exact same games we already play on other devices.  Apple needs to check a stream of Gears of War as much as they need to check a stream of Stranger Things.  Besides, there are no app(s).  It's just one app.  


    Well, we have just had a demonstration where Microsoft Office on the Mac was repurposed to push malware onto the Apple platform by running macros. Obviously, Apple cannot check every single macro that is created through Office.

    Anything streamed can be potentially turned into a threat, with enough smarts and enough motivation. Apple is unique in that its platform is home to the most valuable mobile customers on the planet; that's the motivation. And this is why Microsoft says it is "committed" to finding a solution. The Apple customer base is too valuable for them to ignore, and Apple knows they know that.

    Yup, a Stranger Things stream could cause a buffer overrun due to a bug in the operating system. (I believe there was a case where a text message sent to an iPhone could cause it to restart), so Apple's job here is to minimise the risk as far as possible.


    Still FUD.  MS Office is a program that is intended to be accessed by end users.  It wasn't repurposed. ← That's simply you trying to build on that faulty narrative.  It's also entirely unrelated.  End users have no access to XCloud games to be able to do anything you trying to imply.  Apple doesn't review Netflix movies for the same reason they don't need to review a copy Call of Duty.  It's unnecessary. 
    I have no idea why so many posters are attempting to equate linear media, ie, television and video, with interactive games that are anything but linear, and absolutely controlled by the end user. By that definition, theaters would already have been easily repurposed into massively multiplayer gaming emporiums, but, that hasn't actually happened.

    That Apple disallows streaming games is its business, and its business model, not MS's, Epic's or Facebooks, who are salivating at the prospect of Apple's billion+ user base.

    pscooter63aderutterroundaboutnowBeats
  • Reply 35 of 56
    YP101YP101 Posts: 159member
    Isn't Apple Arcade = Xbox subscription model?
    Apple's games base on app. Not like Xbox or PS. 
    I wonder why Xbox has 1st party games then? Why not allow paly any games on any platform?
  • Reply 36 of 56
    mjtomlin said:
    Apple has never allowed code to be downloaded and executed in any 3rd party iOS app - this is the easiest method of how systems are attacked by malicious code.

    Steve Jobs was also adamant about not allowing 3rd party RTE's on their platform because they had the potential of holding back users ability to upgrade the OS, thus keeping the entire platform from being able to move forward - it's the biggest reason why Apple is able to push a vast majority of their user base to the newest release of their operating systems.

    This is why any developer who makes a web browser cannot use their own web "engine" and must use the built-in Webkit engine for DOM rendering and javascript execution. This is also why Flash or Silverlight or any kind of gaming console emulation apps never appeared in the App Store. And it is the same reason Microsoft cannot have their gaming streaming service on iOS.
    You don't download anything from XCloud.  You stream from their servers.  Your justifications don't apply to XCloud since it doesn't operate the way you think it does.
    Beatsmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 37 of 56
    For everyone that is saying netlix and xcloud aren't similar... they are.  At the end of the day It's only a video stream that is being delivered by xcloud to the xcloud app on client devices.  No foreign app code is actually run on the client device, only the client code for handling the video stream received, and sending input back, and perhaps a GUI to select games, etc.  The exact same as the Netflix or Prime Video apps.  Video is serverd from a CDN, but the GUI and input is done by the client.

    Its also no different than Steam, Playstation Remote Play or any of the hundred Remote Desktop/VNC apps.  Only difference is they aren't tied to a subscription.

    PS Now and xPass (Stadia works differently) are pay for all you can eat exactly like Netflix.  You don't buy individual games, you pay 1 price and get access to the entire catalog.  Stadia you buy the games AND pay a sub...  Not sure how Geforce Now works.

    So its not even an app store within an app store (Stadia excepted). 

    The mental gymnastics defending Apple and not seeing the inconsistency are crazy.

    Ultimately its Apple's platform and Apple can do what it wants, until it runs afoul of competition laws, which vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction and will have to be settle in a court of law if not via voluntary compliance.
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 38 of 56
    aderutteraderutter Posts: 604member
    I trust Apple to keep me, my data and my devices safe.
    After 3 decades in IT I have learnt not to trust Microsoft or Google.

    Beats
  • Reply 39 of 56
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,400member
    MacQc said:

    Ultimately, it is Apple’s store. They have built it. What the fuzz about their rules? You don’t like it, you go elsewhere. You have other choices. 

    MS already did what you said, and announce that xCloud will be available in Android in September.  The one that have no option is me, as an Apple customer.
    edited August 2020 muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 40 of 56
    canukstormcanukstorm Posts: 2,693member
    Does xCloud allow the purchase of games, or is that something you do on Xbox Live or whatever and then stream the games via xCloud?

    The difference between streaming movies or music and streaming games I think is that the game is essentially an app, so Apple cannot whet it before it reaches the consumer.

    There probably will be some way to tackle this issue in the future. 

    I think Apple knows that Microsoft's streaming games may not really be malicious by intent (bad seeds can come into play, though), but if they allow xCloud, then they would need to open the floodgates to all players, some of who may not be as "clean". 


    So, for better or worse, Apple is saying "no" to all. In Microsoft's own words, at least Apple is "consistent" in this regard. 
    xCloud is a streaming service.  So you pay monthly for the privilege of accessing all the games that are on that service.  It's like Google's Stadia or Apple Arcade.
    muthuk_vanalingam
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