Epic sues Apple after Fortnite removed from App Store

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  • Reply 81 of 129
    h2ph2p Posts: 316member
    If Epic wins I’m going to start a business selling popcorn and other snacks in movie theater lobbies.  Without paying the cinemas a dime.  Maybe I’ll setup kiosks in malls to sell products, rent free.  And maybe I’ll even sell bottles of wine inside restaurants.  
    Brilliant!! Why the hell I didn't think of this?!

    Of course, in reality, you would be hauled away in handcuffs but it sure is nice to Dream!
    radarthekatBeatswatto_cobra
  • Reply 82 of 129
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 6,957member
    h2p said:
    If Epic wins I’m going to start a business selling popcorn and other snacks in movie theater lobbies.  Without paying the cinemas a dime.  Maybe I’ll setup kiosks in malls to sell products, rent free.  And maybe I’ll even sell bottles of wine inside restaurants.  
    Brilliant!! Why the hell I didn't think of this?!

    Of course, in reality, you would be hauled away in handcuffs but it sure is nice to Dream!
    And I’ll be selling my own hamburgers in my local Burger King. 
    Beatsradarthekatwatto_cobra
  • Reply 83 of 129
    john_tjohn_t Posts: 12member
    The complaint alleges that Apple has become a "behemoth seeking to control markets, block competition and stifle innovation," and claims that the company's size and reach "far exceeds that of any technology monopolist in history."

    A behemoth with how much of the mobile phone market exactly? Of the desktop market? Of the laptop market? Epic just wants free access to customers.  This is a dead suit. Every reseller/store pays a wholesale price. And in grocery stores you also pay a shelving fee. If I won't pay that Safeway won't carry my product. So good luck here...
    49% market share in the mobile phone market. The mobile phone market is a duopoly. There’s no need to sugarcoat things. With both Apple and Google being under investigation for their business practices. When it comes to tablets, Apple is at 85% market share. MacOS doesn’t matter, as there they allow the installation of 3rd party software installation methods.
    of course, we’re only talking the US and the EU here, as that’s where the investigations are taking place. 
    darkvader
  • Reply 84 of 129
    h2ph2p Posts: 316member

    Hey folks, read the comments on the YouTube video to hear what people outside the Apple bubble think. Best one thus far:
    “You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain”
    Over 13,000 comments thus far. Seems to have touched a nerve.
    Certainly is easy to post crap-a-ziod anti-Apple comments... outside the bubble (I'll check YT later). Although I'm very impressed with the sample comment, I'm not impressed with the anti-Apple meme that has existed since the Lisa/Mac were released. The Lisa was $10K in '83 ($26K). The Mac was $2,500 in '84 ($6K). Pricy items with a new platform, limited software choices, etc. Apple was made fun of "outside the bubble." 

    So while the out-bubblers may be having smug-fun, I was in the garden in 1985, plugging away on a Mac128 at Alphagraphics ($10/hr?) - teaching myself how to work it (not a techie) as an artist without the cash to get formal computer training. I'll never forget when some guy said over my shoulder, "you can click anywhere along that line to select that radio button." A Revelation.

    Man is this cool! I'm doing more of this. Another friend said, "learn one key command a day & you'll get good at the Mac." He was right, I've gotten pretty good over the years.
    Beatswatto_cobraDetnator
  • Reply 85 of 129
    What I gather from all this, is that Epic intentionally screwed it's mobile player base in order to rise their voices against Apple coz you know, in 2020 Twitter Cancel Culture it what makes the world go around. They know their lawsuit will not fly, at least not anytime soon, but hey, shitting on Apple's name might. And you know I'm sure If I'm a game developer and want to use the EpicStore, but don't like their 18% (or whatever it is) they'll be very open to let me collect money anyway I want while still using their platform.
    BeatsradarthekatFidonet127aderutterwatto_cobra
  • Reply 86 of 129
    rain22rain22 Posts: 132member

    Your argument falls down.  It’s not about poor android customers.  It’s about people who can afford an Apple phone.  Those people, who presumably have the money to buy Apple products and services and software, can take their Apple iPhone money and instead buy an Android phone.  Nothing stopping them.  They aren’t poor, by your own argument.  There’s a clear choice for Epic, sell on Android’s app stores and market to everyone, including those who would buy iPhones, that people should buy an Android phone to play Epic games.  
    So I bought Adobe draw on my iPad Pro... should I give Apple 30% of what I bill by clients for design since I couldn’t have done it without the App Store? 
  • Reply 87 of 129
    canukstormcanukstorm Posts: 2,590member
    rain22 said:

    Your argument falls down.  It’s not about poor android customers.  It’s about people who can afford an Apple phone.  Those people, who presumably have the money to buy Apple products and services and software, can take their Apple iPhone money and instead buy an Android phone.  Nothing stopping them.  They aren’t poor, by your own argument.  There’s a clear choice for Epic, sell on Android’s app stores and market to everyone, including those who would buy iPhones, that people should buy an Android phone to play Epic games.  
    So I bought Adobe draw on my iPad Pro... should I give Apple 30% of what I bill by clients for design since I couldn’t have done it without the App Store? 
    Only if you distribute your work through the App Store.
    BeatsRayz2016SpamSandwichradarthekataderutterwatto_cobraDetnator
  • Reply 88 of 129
    BeatsBeats Posts: 3,073member
    About time. They are our devices, we should be able to run whatever we want on them including a competing app store. If Apple thinks 30% is fair then it can try competing with app stores where the cut is 10% and see how well it does. What if a $10 app cost only $8 on another app store? How many customers would stick with Apple then?

    Why should Apple support competition?

    By that logic Amazon should allow links to Wal-Mart and Target. Youtube should allow Pornhub videos and ads, Ford should manufacture Chevy cars and sell them for cheaper with zero profit.

    Get the fu** outta here with that logic.
    Rayz2016radarthekataderutterwatto_cobraDetnator
  • Reply 89 of 129
    BeatsBeats Posts: 3,073member
    About time. They are our devices, we should be able to run whatever we want on them including a competing app store. If Apple thinks 30% is fair then it can try competing with app stores where the cut is 10% and see how well it does. What if a $10 app cost only $8 on another app store? How many customers would stick with Apple then?

    I bet all of them will stick with Apple.

    Privacy, security, vetted Apps, single entity to trust your credit card to...these are all easily worth a couple dollars.

    Apps are dirt cheap. The average iOS user spends less than $10 a month on Apps. Saving $2 for increased risk of malware or other issues is not enough to make people switch.

    And that’s assuming prices are actually cheaper. More likely they charge the same price and pocket the extra money for themselves.

    It will never work because when the user downloads malware or an app screws them over who do you think they'll blame? Apple.
    aderutterwatto_cobraDetnator
  • Reply 90 of 129
    BeatsBeats Posts: 3,073member
    Beats said:
    DAalseth said:
    I don't play Fortnight but I agree with Epic
    I've never agreed with Apple claiming a portion of all sales from an app even if those sales don't go through the AppStore.
    Some have compared it to having rules for stocking things in your own store.
    That's not it
    Some have said that Epic and others are trying to profit while not paying for the store.
    Not right either
    Look at it this way. I have a store. You want to sell something, a computer let's say, in my store. I can and should get a cut of the price for my trouble of hosting your product That's fair.
    But should I then demand a cut of everything else that is bought with that computer? I sell a Dell computer so anything purchased from Dell on that computer has to pay a toll back to me even if you're a thousand miles away from my store? Of course not, that would be absurd. 
    Yet Apple is demanding a slice of everything bought on Amazon Prime, and Kindle, and all in game purchases, and more, even if those transactions have nothing to do and go nowhere near Apple's store. 
    That has never felt right to me. 
    Apple should get a cute of sales in their store.
    But that should be the end of it. 
    Oh and don't go around saying if they don't like it they can go elsewhere, to Android for example. Apple has the only store where developers make significant money. The profits from the android store is a fraction. 
    It's like saying if you don't want to pay my forever cut on sales you can go to the other store in the poor section of town where nobody can afford your stuff. 
    Not really a choice for most developers.
    It's this kind of behavior that's getting Apple in trouble with antitrust hawks. 


    They have the option of pulling the App. It's not hard.

    I agree 100% with Apple.

    tundraboy said:
    The complaint alleges that Apple has become a "behemoth seeking to control markets, block competition and stifle innovation," and claims that the company's size and reach "far exceeds that of any technology monopolist in history."

    A behemoth with how much of the mobile phone market exactly? Of the desktop market? Of the laptop market? Epic just wants free access to customers.  This is a dead suit. Every reseller/store pays a wholesale price. And in grocery stores you also pay a shelving fee. If I won't pay that Safeway won't carry my product. So good luck here...
    Yes.  It is amazing how these companies make the claim that Apple is monopolizing the market for Apple products.  Even more amazing that some politicians are swallowing this line.  Maybe they should turn their attention to Sony for monopolizing the market for Sony game consoles.  Or Merceds Benz for their lock on the market for Mercedes Benz cars.  Ridiculously stupid thinking.

    The Apple App Store is a subordinate market.  It exists solely because of the iPhone and iPad.  If Apple has a monopoly in the smartphone and tablet market, then sure, Epic has a case because that is the only way consumers can buy and play their games.  But with Android out there, Epic cannot claim that Apple is shutting them out of the market.  If they must sue someone, maybe they should sue Google and the Android phone manufacturers for putting out such lousy product that nobody wants to play Fortnite through their platform.  But that's not true either because a lot of Android phone owners play Fortnite.

    Even if Apple had a monopoly Epic still has no case. Of course anti-Apple Americans will try to screw Apple anyway.

    iKnockoffs are having a hard time running Fortnite and Epic knows this. They're stupid for biting the hand that feeds them. I think Apple needs to go on a full on assault on anyone who tries screwing them over.
    Of course you do.  That's not exactly a surprise.  Gruber is, so far, the only one that has nailed the heart of the issue;

    "It’s unclear, of course, what Epic actually hopes to get from Apple, either voluntarily or forced by the courts, but they’re asking for the whole shebang: they’re claiming it is illegal for iOS not to be as open to native third-party software as the Mac."

    https://daringfireball.net/2020/08/epic_app_store_war

    Right now, on the Mac, one can download software a) via the Mac App Store or b) side-loading apps so long as apps are signed & notarized (a feature of GateKeeper).  As far as I know, the Mac, in no way, has been negatively affected from a privacy or security standpoint when apps are installed via option (b).  So why can't GateKeeper be implemented on iOS or iPadOS.  For a $2 Trillion company, I highly doubt it's a technical issue.  I agree with Epic taking up this issue but at the end of the it'll be up to the courts to decide if it gets that far.  

    This idea that there's choice because users can just buy Android is a false notion.  Should Americans just move to Canada because Canadians have access to universal health care and far cheaper pharmaceutical prices?  Legally speaking, a company does not always retain full control over products and market they create once those products/markets grown large and important enough to society and the economy. It happened in the 1970s/80s with Bell Telephone, and it will likely happen again with many software/tech companies as we move further into a tech-based economy.

    You missed the point. I 100% agree with Apple because Epic can just pull their app. All the whining and problems GONE.

    Oh wait, hey wanna be IN the Store but not PAY for anything.

    Stupid logic.
    radarthekatwatto_cobraDetnator
  • Reply 91 of 129
    BeatsBeats Posts: 3,073member
    Hi Apple, thanks for helping us become really popular and rich with your trusted app store and rock-solid worldwide hosting, transaction and distribution platform. Also thanks for building a market for us to sell our wares too, as well as making the hardware, software and APIs for us to utilise as a means to sell stuff to people.

    But LOL, we don't want to pay for any of that. It should be free because you sell phones or something.
    Yeah I don't think Apple had anything to do with fortnite becoming popular nor making Epic rich. 

    So no one played Fortnite on iPhone and they made $0/year on the App Store?

    If so, what's the problem then?
    watto_cobraDetnator
  • Reply 92 of 129
    BeatsBeats Posts: 3,073member
    Beats said:
    Even if Apple had a monopoly Epic still has no case. Of course anti-Apple Americans will try to screw Apple anyway.

    iKnockoffs are having a hard time running Fortnite and Epic knows this. They're stupid for biting the hand that feeds them. I think Apple needs to go on a full on assault on anyone who tries screwing them over.
    Man, nothing you said here was true.


    iKnockoffs are having a hard time running Fortnite. This is true.

    I stopped reading your response there.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 93 of 129
    I get that epic spends money to develop their game  but 70% of the profit from basically vapor (vbucks?) sounds a whole lot better than nothing since the app was pulled. It’s not unlike a barber shop or flea market; you have to pay rent, and a lot of the time it’s a portion of your proceeds. 
    Beatswatto_cobra
  • Reply 94 of 129
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 6,957member
    Beats said:
    About time. They are our devices, we should be able to run whatever we want on them including a competing app store. If Apple thinks 30% is fair then it can try competing with app stores where the cut is 10% and see how well it does. What if a $10 app cost only $8 on another app store? How many customers would stick with Apple then?

    Why should Apple support competition?

    By that logic Amazon should allow links to Wal-Mart and Target. Youtube should allow Pornhub videos and ads, Ford should manufacture Chevy cars and sell them for cheaper with zero profit.

    Get the fu** outta here with that logic.


    Beatsaderutterwatto_cobra
  • Reply 95 of 129
    imatimat Posts: 201member
    Tencent owns 40% of Epic. The connection is obvious. Payback in the form of generating chaos seems obvious to me. Also, how much does Tencent charge on WeChat (just curious).
    Beatsaderutterwatto_cobra
  • Reply 96 of 129
    BeatsBeats Posts: 3,073member
    Beats said:
    Just a jump on the “i want my way” or else bandwagon. 

    Rules exist for a reason. Chaos is prevented, business is made, and products are better. 

    With the recent whiners who want to pretend that Apple doesn’t deserve their storefront and hosting / delivery fees, even the guys who really should know better are jumping in. Shameful. 

    Reminds me of all the “we don’t need law enforcement” stuff going on. 

    Yes. We do. Get back in line and stop stealing. 

    Those people mean "We don't need cops getting paid to kill people" which is actually happening. Easy to criticize from the comfort of Mr. 
    unfortunately there has been some injustice. But there has also been far far more good. 



    And THAT is the problem. People thinking police are automatically good people and "more good than bad". Assault someone at work and see how fast you're fired. Even your local McDonalds employee has more respect and morals than the best cops.

    Living in a privileged community will have you saying crap like this. Where I grew up, cops beat kids and laughed about it.

    And nope, I've held way more dangerous jobs than cops. That myth that cops have a dangerous job has been debunked statistically for decades.
    darkvader
  • Reply 97 of 129
    BeatsBeats Posts: 3,073member

    DAalseth said:
    I don't play Fortnight but I agree with Epic
    I've never agreed with Apple claiming a portion of all sales from an app even if those sales don't go through the AppStore.
    Some have compared it to having rules for stocking things in your own store.
    That's not it
    Some have said that Epic and others are trying to profit while not paying for the store.
    Not right either
    Look at it this way. I have a store. You want to sell something, a computer let's say, in my store. I can and should get a cut of the price for my trouble of hosting your product That's fair.
    But should I then demand a cut of everything else that is bought with that computer? I sell a Dell computer so anything purchased from Dell on that computer has to pay a toll back to me even if you're a thousand miles away from my store? Of course not, that would be absurd. 
    Yet Apple is demanding a slice of everything bought on Amazon Prime, and Kindle, and all in game purchases, and more, even if those transactions have nothing to do and go nowhere near Apple's store. 
    That has never felt right to me. 
    Apple should get a cute of sales in their store.
    But that should be the end of it. 
    Oh and don't go around saying if they don't like it they can go elsewhere, to Android for example. Apple has the only store where developers make significant money. The profits from the android store is a fraction. 
    It's like saying if you don't want to pay my forever cut on sales you can go to the other store in the poor section of town where nobody can afford your stuff. 
    Not really a choice for most developers.
    It's this kind of behavior that's getting Apple in trouble with antitrust hawks. 

    Your argument falls down.  It’s not about poor android customers.  It’s about people who can afford an Apple phone.  Those people, who presumably have the money to buy Apple products and services and software, can take their Apple iPhone money and instead buy an Android phone.  Nothing stopping them.  They aren’t poor, by your own argument.  There’s a clear choice for Epic, sell on Android’s app stores and market to everyone, including those who would buy iPhones, that people should buy an Android phone to play Epic games.  
    First off, Android device owners aren't "poor" in North America, western Europe or Asia. Instead, it is that we would rather spend $250 on a phone to play Fortnite 


    A complete lie. Those crappy knockoffs can't run Fortnite appropriately.
  • Reply 98 of 129
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 6,339member
    Well, as soon as Epic Company sign or click two times on agree button, on Apple’s website to pay $99 per year to use Apple’s service (just like on macOS and iDevices to make sure you understand the agreement).  Their lawsuit and case is already worthless and probably throw in the trash bag.

    Epic already agree with Apple.  Y’all know that not 100% of people read the term of agreements the whole from first to last page.  Also read the guidelines. 

    If they read it and found out about the commission fee such as 30% (then 15% after a year for subscription) they should decline the agreement before being an idiot and sue Apple for no reason.

    ***Hey you “Grammar Nazi” don’t you dare criticize my grammar. I’m deaf reader and English isn’t my primary language, American Sign Language is.***
    Signing a contract only makes the contract legal. It doesn't mean all the clauses within the contract are legal.

    We mostly only find that out when clauses are challenged in the courts. 

    That is very basically what is happening here. 
    edited August 2020 muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 99 of 129
    BeatsBeats Posts: 3,073member
    h2p said:

    Hey folks, read the comments on the YouTube video to hear what people outside the Apple bubble think. Best one thus far:
    “You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain”
    Over 13,000 comments thus far. Seems to have touched a nerve.
    Certainly is easy to post crap-a-ziod anti-Apple comments... outside the bubble (I'll check YT later). Although I'm very impressed with the sample comment, I'm not impressed with the anti-Apple meme that has existed since the Lisa/Mac were released. The Lisa was $10K in '83 ($26K). The Mac was $2,500 in '84 ($6K). Pricy items with a new platform, limited software choices, etc. Apple was made fun of "outside the bubble." 

    So while the out-bubblers may be having smug-fun, I was in the garden in 1985, plugging away on a Mac128 at Alphagraphics ($10/hr?) - teaching myself how to work it (not a techie) as an artist without the cash to get formal computer training. I'll never forget when some guy said over my shoulder, "you can click anywhere along that line to select that radio button." A Revelation.

    Man is this cool! I'm doing more of this. Another friend said, "learn one key command a day & you'll get good at the Mac." He was right, I've gotten pretty good over the years.

    Don't read YouTube comments. It's an anti-Apple circle jerk of young teens who are "experts" on technology. They'll repeat myths and memes from goofy YouTubers.


    imat said:
    Tencent owns 40% of Epic. The connection is obvious. Payback in the form of generating chaos seems obvious to me. Also, how much does Tencent charge on WeChat (just curious).

    News to me.

    Rayz2016 said:
    Beats said:
    About time. They are our devices, we should be able to run whatever we want on them including a competing app store. If Apple thinks 30% is fair then it can try competing with app stores where the cut is 10% and see how well it does. What if a $10 app cost only $8 on another app store? How many customers would stick with Apple then?

    Why should Apple support competition?

    By that logic Amazon should allow links to Wal-Mart and Target. Youtube should allow Pornhub videos and ads, Ford should manufacture Chevy cars and sell them for cheaper with zero profit.

    Get the fu** outta here with that logic.




    His logic was worse. Apple IS allowing everyone on their platform. His suggestion is like Playstation allowing Nintendos store on their hardware and the Xbox store while Sony makes $0.

    An analogy would be holding a yard sale and people who live in the apartments wanna use YOUR space to sell next to you but not pay you a penny.
    radarthekatwatto_cobra
  • Reply 100 of 129
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,363member
    Does anyone know how the in-app purchases work on Playstation and Xbox, do Sony and Microsoft have a similar system and take a percentage?
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