Apple threatens to close Epic Games developer account on Aug. 28

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  • Reply 61 of 111
    DAalsethDAalseth Posts: 1,988member
    Please note that I am an Apple fanboy and I am not a gamer. Never played Fornite or anything since Popeye on the Nintendo arcades of the 80s. (Crossy Road maybe the only exception).

    But escalating this is nonsensical for Apple. Great job showing non-monopolistic behavior, Apple.

    Removing Epic dev license will backfire. Indeed.

    This might get a pass in the USA but Apple will get a giant slap in the hand by EU regulators. But worse, beyond the Apple cheerleaders that we all are, Apple will start being seeing as the dark force. Count on Epic to pose as the victim here. They seem to have this well planned.

    And in the medium term, Apple will start losing customers, losing public goodwill, losing its ability to attract the best developers.

    C'mon Tim. Settle this nasty distraction before it is too late.



    Well said. Apple will almost certainly win the battle, but could very well lose the war. The goal from some circles, is I suspect to make Apple look like the bad guy. Political types take Apple down a notch and can crow about solving the problem. Meanwhile Alphabet, Facebook, and Amazon continue business as usual. Apple's the biggest so they must be the baddest, right? 
    raulcristianjohnbear
  • Reply 62 of 111
    aaarrrggghaaarrrgggh Posts: 1,608member
    Put me in the camp of Apple is fighting the wrong battle here. They should have reduced their commission or changed the fee structure to something like 30% for the first $100k and ratcheting down to 10% for anything over $1 million. 30% was fair in the early days, but there should be some economy now. 
    raulcristianPeza
  • Reply 63 of 111
    jungmarkjungmark Posts: 6,917member
    Put me in the camp of Apple is fighting the wrong battle here. They should have reduced their commission or changed the fee structure to something like 30% for the first $100k and ratcheting down to 10% for anything over $1 million. 30% was fair in the early days, but there should be some economy now. 
    Epic could turn its game into subscriptions and thus pay the 15% after the first year. Instead they want to nickel and dime their gamers. 
    GabymattinozSpamSandwichpscooter63FileMakerFellerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 64 of 111
    Other than people thinking 30% is too high, what evidence or facts that point to Apple is charging too much? Apple is a business and businesses need to make money. 
    JinTechFileMakerFellerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 65 of 111
    JinTechJinTech Posts: 858member
    Why don't those of us in favor of Apple, counter-sue Epic with the fact that their in-app purchase prices are toooo high! /s
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 66 of 111
    flydogflydog Posts: 1,093member
    polymnia said:

    KITA said:
    Interesting. This may impact iOS/macOS gaming even further, potentially making third party developers choose to drop support of iOS/macOS or find a new game engine.

    It told Epic that by August 28, Apple will cut off Epic’s access to all development tools necessary to create software for Apple’s platforms—including for the Unreal Engine Epic offers to third-party developers, which Apple has never claimed violated any Apple policy. Not content simply to remove Fortnite from the App Store, Apple is attacking Epic’s entire business in unrelated areas. 

    If the Unreal Engine can no longer support Apple platforms, the software developers that use it will be forced to use alternatives.

    Apple would lose out on Unreal Engine 5 as well it sounds like.

    ...

    Although they are the owner of Unreal Engine, there are less than fifteen iOS games developed with it, according to Wikipedia:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unreal_Engine_games

    A recent mainstream game for the Mac is Borderlands 3, but it requires a graphics card of 8 GB on the Mac ! What a game engine is that !

    So not many people will miss them once they are gone, and the whole affair will be forgotten in a couple of months even in the blogosphere that feeds it and life will continue as usual...
    The Wikipedia article is just showing a few examples.  There are 1000s of games using the engine.  It is very popular for both Indies and big studios.
    I wonder what Epic charges for an Unreal license? Is it (mostly) free if the licensee doesn’t charge for the software using Unreal? Is it a % of sales if the resulting software is purchased?
    5% of sales
  • Reply 67 of 111
    flydogflydog Posts: 1,093member
    Put me in the camp of Apple is fighting the wrong battle here. They should have reduced their commission or changed the fee structure to something like 30% for the first $100k and ratcheting down to 10% for anything over $1 million. 30% was fair in the early days, but there should be some economy now. 
    Since you've been at your job for a few years now, and you are more efficient at doing your job, you should take a pay cut to reflect your economy. 
    Rayz2016pscooter63FileMakerFellerwatto_cobraGaby
  • Reply 68 of 111
    johnbearjohnbear Posts: 160member
    Apple charges these 30% fees like mafia mob. Shame on them 
  • Reply 69 of 111
    johnbearjohnbear Posts: 160member
    georgie01 said:
    It’s hilarious and pathetic to see Epic complain they have to pay Apple to use their App Store and then complain they won’t have access to Apple’s freely provided development tools. Why do they think they deserve these things for free? That’s so infantile and entitled. As long as they aren’t developing their own platform and building the devices their work needs and building a huge customer base with that work, then their perspective is childish and arrogant.
    A small percentage is fair but Apple charges these 30% fees like mafia mob. Shame on them.
    imagine Visa and MasterCard charging 30% per transaction for using their system;)
    edited August 2020
  • Reply 70 of 111
    jungmarkjungmark Posts: 6,917member
    johnbear said:
    georgie01 said:
    It’s hilarious and pathetic to see Epic complain they have to pay Apple to use their App Store and then complain they won’t have access to Apple’s freely provided development tools. Why do they think they deserve these things for free? That’s so infantile and entitled. As long as they aren’t developing their own platform and building the devices their work needs and building a huge customer base with that work, then their perspective is childish and arrogant.
    A small percentage is fair but Apple charges these 30% fees like mafia mob. Shame on them.
    imagine Visa and MasterCard charging 30% per transaction for using their system;)
    Do you say the same thing about Nintendo, Sony, Google, Amazon?
    FileMakerFellerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 71 of 111
    GabyGaby Posts: 184member
    Beats said:
    KITA said:
    Interesting. This may impact iOS/macOS gaming even further, potentially making third party developers choose to drop support of iOS/macOS or find a new game engine.

    It told Epic that by August 28, Apple will cut off Epic’s access to all development tools necessary to create software for Apple’s platforms—including for the Unreal Engine Epic offers to third-party developers, which Apple has never claimed violated any Apple policy. Not content simply to remove Fortnite from the App Store, Apple is attacking Epic’s entire business in unrelated areas. 

    If the Unreal Engine can no longer support Apple platforms, the software developers that use it will be forced to use alternatives.

    Apple would lose out on Unreal Engine 5 as well it sounds like.





    And guess who's panicking and having regrets? Not Apple:

    "If the Unreal Engine can no longer support Apple platforms, the software developers that use it will be forced to use alternatives. The damage to Epic’s ongoing business and to its reputation and trust with its customers will be unquantifiable and irreparable."

    -Epic legal document

    Too bad they didn't think about the damage, reputation and trust affecting Apple when they pulled their dirty trick.

    THIS. Is the PERFECT opportunity for Apple to develop a massive game engine for Apple Silicon Mac/iPad/iPhone for developers and obliterate Epic out of the market. Damn I miss Steve in times like these. 


    @Beats ; I was thinking the exact same thing. That is what I would do. Create a game engine really highly optimised and made even better by an updated metal API and require it to be used for development on iOS. Devs will jump at it as it would be included effectively for free with dev subscription so they would save on royalties with Epic and others and they would slowly choke them. Call it retaliation but I’d call it Karma Apple benefits by even better integration and performance. Win win situation. 

    edited August 2020
  • Reply 72 of 111
    GabyGaby Posts: 184member
    viclauyyc said:
    When Trump ban China/Huawei to buy US tech. They build their own OS, CPU, phone. 

    Now it is your turn to build your own OS, cpu and phone. Epic, be like China
    Yep... I can see the marketing.... THE EPIC FLOP lol
    FileMakerFellerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 73 of 111
    DAalseth said:
    tyler82 said:
    Apple is on the wrong side of this battle. 
    Dropping the game, killing their developer account, and such are predictable and Apple is on very solid legal ground with those actions.
    Personally I think Apple's 30% on sales is in line with other stores. I think they will be able to defend that as well. 
    I have a problem though, with the 30% on sales that do not go through Apple's ecosystem. Epic setting up their own payment system to go directly to their servers is logical and simplifies the transaction. Other that Apple taking their cut there is no reason for aftermarket purchases to go through Apple. It's like if I decided to drive for Uber and Toyota demanded a cut of what I got. 
    Apple gets paid nicely for hosting and selling the games. the cut of aftermarket sales is hard to justify. Oh and before anyone says that all of these companies would then have their games for free on the AppStore but you'd have to pay them directly to play them, yes that would be a problem. But Apple should deal with that real problem, not pretend that they deserve a cut of each Prime Video ans Spotify stream we get. 
    Uber? Toyota? - Not even close....

    but now that you mentioned Uber....

    An Uber driver (Epic) want to use the Uber platform (App Store) yet doesn’t want Uber Platform to get a cut from every ride booked within the UBER DEVELOPED AND MAINTAINED platform. Uber driver want access to more than a billion riders for FREE?
    Rayz2016retrogustoFileMakerFellerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 74 of 111
    johnbear said:
    A small percentage is fair but Apple charges these 30% fees like mafia mob. Shame on them.
    imagine Visa and MasterCard charging 30% per transaction for using their system;)
    The credit card companies get a small percentage of every purchase, but if you do not make a full payment on time, you are paying a fee that is about 1000% greater than the current inflation rate -- but they will not break your knees if you do not pay.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 75 of 111
    mattinozmattinoz Posts: 1,819member
    JinTech said:
    Why don't those of us in favor of Apple, counter-sue Epic with the fact that their in-app purchase prices are toooo high! /s

    I would think maybe tackling the loot crate microtransactions model as being gambling aimed at underage players would be a better counterplay to draw the public into a fight. Go for the Epic farm. Doesn't directly help Apple but does help the consummers bring the action.
    FileMakerFellerwatto_cobraGaby
  • Reply 76 of 111
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 6,957member
    Please note that I am an Apple fanboy and I am not a gamer. Never played Fornite or anything since Popeye on the Nintendo arcades of the 80s. (Crossy Road maybe the only exception).

    But escalating this is nonsensical for Apple. Great job showing non-monopolistic behavior, Apple.

    Removing Epic dev license will backfire. Indeed.

    This might get a pass in the USA but Apple will get a giant slap in the hand by EU regulators. But worse, beyond the Apple cheerleaders that we all are, Apple will start being seeing as the dark force. Count on Epic to pose as the victim here. They seem to have this well planned.

    And in the medium term, Apple will start losing customers, losing public goodwill, losing its ability to attract the best developers.

    C'mon Tim. Settle this nasty distraction before it is too late.




    And then what? Should Apple then buckle under not-very-public pressure from every developer who tries to court publicity for circumventing the rules?

    So what should they agree to next when someone else decides to launch a 'poor me' campaign. How about giving away Apple Silicon tech because it gives Apple an unfair advantage?

    And yes, the EU regulators can take Apple to the cleaners, and send a clear message that any company in the EU can only reach a certain level of success before it is forced to give it away, because that's what it'll look like.

    Nope, enough of these hypocrites (can I create my own store on Fortnite? I doubt it) trying to look like victims. Apple has drawn a line in the sand and said you follow the rules or create your own phone. Simple as that.

    Epic knows it doesn't have a legal leg to stand on, which is why it is now trying to get other companies to join its Coalition of the Whiney. It could never win in court, so it needs to get the public behind it, and I'm not sure that's working.
    qwerty52tmaypscooter63GG1FileMakerFellerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 77 of 111
    robabarobaba Posts: 226member
    johnbear said:
    Apple charges these 30% fees like mafia mob. Shame on them 
    Yeah, I’m sure that includes breaking grandmas legs too right?  
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 78 of 111
    johnbearjohnbear Posts: 160member
    flippysch said:
    johnbear said:
    A small percentage is fair but Apple charges these 30% fees like mafia mob. Shame on them.
    imagine Visa and MasterCard charging 30% per transaction for using their system;)
    The credit card companies get a small percentage of every purchase, but if you do not make a full payment on time, you are paying a fee that is about 1000% greater than the current inflation rate -- but they will not break your knees if you do not pay.
    Visa doesn’t charge late fees. That’s the unscrupulous banks that lend the money. 
    BTW, imagine paying 30% interest on a mortgage 
    edited August 2020
  • Reply 79 of 111
    It will never cease to amaze me how people will run to Apple’s defense when they could easily come to the table and work with developers on adapting their policies to reflect today’s world vs the one from over 10 years ago when these policies were put in place. It also fascinates me when these same tactics are applied by other organizations they are somehow acting our-of-line. Typical American bullshit of when it’s my agenda it’s absolutely the right thing but if it doesn’t fit in to your delicate sensibilities it’s disgusting and has to be changed...
  • Reply 80 of 111
    hriw-annon@xs4all.nl[email protected] Posts: 61unconfirmed, member
    KITA said:
    Interesting. This may impact iOS/macOS gaming even further, potentially making third party developers choose to drop support of iOS/macOS or find a new game engine.

    It told Epic that by August 28, Apple will cut off Epic’s access to all development tools necessary to create software for Apple’s platforms—including for the Unreal Engine Epic offers to third-party developers, which Apple has never claimed violated any Apple policy. Not content simply to remove Fortnite from the App Store, Apple is attacking Epic’s entire business in unrelated areas. 

    If the Unreal Engine can no longer support Apple platforms, the software developers that use it will be forced to use alternatives.

    Apple would lose out on Unreal Engine 5 as well it sounds like.



    Judging from the WWDC presentations Apple seems to be quite chummy with Unity. Unity may be getting deep early access to Apple Silicon, which will be a big leap in GPU performance, taking it close to (or maybe exceeding) discrete GPU performance.

    Another thing I noticed was the absence of SceneKit presentations at WWDC. Could they be cooking something up with Unity to replace it?
    edited August 2020 SpamSandwichwatto_cobra
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