Hosting? Apple doesn't host the game servers. They host the server where a tiny app lives that Apple forces Epic customer to download from. That's it. Once downloaded, Apple's job is done. Why should Apple get 30% for "billing and bookkeeping" when Epic is perfectly capable of doing that itself if not for the fact that Apple forces them to go through Apple and pay 30%? I wonder how many bookkeepers in the companies of the world get 30% of the companies revenue (not profit, but gross revenue)? I'd venture a guess of practically NONE.
To be fair, Epic should charge $1.99 for the app, and Apple gets 30% of that. Then, all the IAP's are through Epic payment systems since Apple has nothing to do with that.
Well, as every other professions, there are IT guys, and IT guys... some show a fundamental lack of understanding into something that, although marginally, is in their area of expertise.
Fortnite is a multi-gigabyte download, that I sampled myself, when it came out. As a free app, I didn't pay nothing to download it. I played around for a time, thought it not to my taste, and removed the app. I didn't try it because of the hype, but because I had previously bought Epic wares, like the Infinity Blade games, and really enjoyed them, so it was a developer I trusted with my most precious resource: time (not money, really)!
Nonetheless, that download cost Apple. Someone on another discussion about this estimated the cost of all Fortnite downloads on Apple's hardware if it wee hosted on AWS, and if the rollout happened over 3–4 months. The bill was on 90,000.00 US dollars a month! That's real money to anyone I know. Apple operates its own datacenters, so let's say the cost was about half of that still leaves us on a total 200 thousand ballpark. Does any reasonable person thinks it's fair to Apple to foot the bill?
Apple also took care of many operating costs, like bill processing, credit cards, taxes, etc. Epic is big enough to handle those themselves, but not every developer. And the App Store treats everyone the same, as a level playing field. Marketing costs are real also, although I'd doubt the value of that, given the massive campaign I remember from that game. You just could not go anywhere and don't see it in some form, back in the day.
Apple also developed all API used to bring the game to life on all Apple platforms. If you think that cost is covered by a yearly $99 fee, you are delusional. The way I see it, Apple only charges that fee to keep "weekend developers" (or people with more enthusiasm than technical skill) out of the platform, managing the burden on reviewing crappy apps.
In your work, don't you use specialized tools and/or software to be more productive, or at all efficient? Didn't you had to pay upfront for those tools? Or if they were really expensive, lease them? This here is the same thing. Apple makes nothing upfront on free apps. But it does want something, for their contributions, when and if, the developer gets paid.
Finally, there is also customer reachability. Apple and my bank are the only ones that I trust with my credit card data. There is really no one else with that information. I've seen too many leaks and fraud with people close to me to stray from this stance. I've never had trouble with my card, only changing it when it expires. I'm not going to change that now. If it is not on the App Store, or if it does not accept Apple Pay, it doesn't exist to me. And I've never missed a purchase!
So yeah, to my thinking, that 30% offers great value!
So Epic wanted a special deal like Amazon has, but Apple refused because as Cook said, every dev has the same App Store agreement. Seems he forgot that Apple gave Amazon a special deal. Oops.
Of course Apple should get a cut of the fees Epic charges, no one doubts that. It's the amount Apple charges for things like IAPs that don't send one bit of data through Apple's servers that devs have an issue with. And the fact that Apple doesn't allow devs to mention alternative purchasing methods within the app, and forces devs to charge the same on the App Store for things as they do elsewhere. That's probably the biggest anticompetitive aspect that governments aren't happy with.
If Epic thinks they're going to get a store within a store they're mistaken - though WeChat is a store and Apple is fine with that, because they know without it the market for iPhones in China will collapse.
Your argument is not sound because Epic games don’t have the same influence as they do with WeChat
Every customer will get special treatment if they are VIP. That’s jusT how the real world works.
If you run a restaurant and a customer orders a $100k bottle of champagne, wouldn’t you give that customer special treatment?
Would these Epic guys be the multi-millionaires they are today without Apple's App Store and Google Play? I don't think so! Apparently they never heard the one about not biting the hand that feeds.
This new fact confirms what there is behind Epic’s shouting and crying about Apple’s monopoly and about absence of freedom in AppStore.
Money, money and ones again money!
There really wasn’t any question about it. If Epic could have shown they have been damaged by paying Apple 30%, then they might have a point in this lawsuit. What they have shown is that Apple made them a lot of money and took care of the hosting, billing and bookkeeping for Fortnite for 30% of billions.
Those poor bastards.
Hosting? Apple doesn't host the game servers. They host the server where a tiny app lives that Apple forces Epic customer to download from. That's it. Once downloaded, Apple's job is done. Why should Apple get 30% for "billing and bookkeeping" when Epic is perfectly capable of doing that itself if not for the fact that Apple forces them to go through Apple and pay 30%? I wonder how many bookkeepers in the companies of the world get 30% of the companies revenue (not profit, but gross revenue)? I'd venture a guess of practically NONE.
To be fair, Epic should charge $1.99 for the app, and Apple gets 30% of that. Then, all the IAP's are through Epic payment systems since Apple has nothing to do with that.
That's like saying the pharmacy should only get paid for the initial prescription and thereafter the drug company should be able to sell refills directly to that customer cutting the pharmacy out of the loop entirely. As we say in Texas, "That dog won't hunt."
Pascalxx said: The main legal challenge may (or may not) be less straightforward.
It's not as flimsy as the attempt at an injunction, but Apple does appear to have legal precedent in their favor per the Psystar ruling. Psystar attempted to say that Apple's control of macOS constituted a monopoly. How different is that vs what Epic is attempting to claim per iOS?
I don't get that "#FreeFortnite" slogan/tag. It's not like they are captured or held against their will anywhere. They have always been free to check out at any time, and as a matter of fact they've now been thrown out… like garbage. So what's to free? If anything their slogan could be "#LetFortniteBackIn". But I guess logic isn't part of their game, just greed …and blind rage.
I, for one, would like to have at least the option to side load an alternate app store on some of my iOS devices. Sure that would possibly compromise their security but I will just be playing games on them, so I am not sure it matters really. Keep trying to convince me that I don't know what I want. That's what Apple thinks.
If you are so adamant that you know that the apps you want to side load are safe then just jailbreak your device.
Apple’s walled garden isn’t something new, and based on all of the exploits that some foreign governments are using to gain access to a device is proof why Apple will never allow side loading.
You want security and privacy until it’s an inconvenience for you. You can’t have it both ways.
Like others here have stated ad nauseam, the fact that other platforms where you can buy apps and games have similar agreements, but they are not under fire and that proves that Apple is being singled out to extort money under the guise to make things more “fair” between device manufacturers and developers.
If Apple’s iOS is so advanced and secure as they make it out to be, side-loaded apps can perfectly well run in a secure container and not go outside that digital sand box.
In fact they already allow this “side-loading” in a way: for companies with an enterprise distribution profile.
This is just about Apple’s fervent attempts to guard its cash cow. Nothing more, nothing less.
As Nick Cybart (per Rayzr2016's post here) has pointed out, Apple App Store is not making Apple a lot of money, if any. I believe Apple itself has stated in the past that they hardly earn money on the store, and say so to same effect in their opposition. I quote: "Apple does not earn any money through the App Store on its substantial investment in these tools, software and technology until developers bill and collect funds from users who engage in digital transactions with consumers on the store. More than 80% of the apps in the App Store pay no commission to Apple". Cash cow, not so much.
Bottom Line: The hardware I use is more important than any App I use. So my first priority is my iPhone not Epic or any other Company that develops Apps
As for Epic They agreed to 30% payment in an agreement and now want it all because they are successful and greedy
REMEMBER Nobody wins and if Epic is banned from the App Store on August 28 it’s a huge loss for them as far as future games etc
This new fact confirms what there is behind Epic’s shouting and crying about Apple’s monopoly and about absence of freedom in AppStore.
Money, money and ones again money!
There really wasn’t any question about it. If Epic could have shown they have been damaged by paying Apple 30%, then they might have a point in this lawsuit. What they have shown is that Apple made them a lot of money and took care of the hosting, billing and bookkeeping for Fortnite for 30% of billions.
Those poor bastards.
Hosting? Apple doesn't host the game servers. They host the server where a tiny app lives that Apple forces Epic customer to download from. That's it. Once downloaded, Apple's job is done. Why should Apple get 30% for "billing and bookkeeping" when Epic is perfectly capable of doing that itself if not for the fact that Apple forces them to go through Apple and pay 30%? I wonder how many bookkeepers in the companies of the world get 30% of the companies revenue (not profit, but gross revenue)? I'd venture a guess of practically NONE.
To be fair, Epic should charge $1.99 for the app, and Apple gets 30% of that. Then, all the IAP's are through Epic payment systems since Apple has nothing to do with that.
Typical IT mentality, so distracted by detail they miss the point. Apple doesn’t charge 30% for delivering a few hundred MB of data, Apple charges 30% for access the the vast number of Apple’s customers who may wish to buy the developer’s apps.
Apple is looking to ban Epics developer account on the 27th, which will ban all of Epics apps on the app store. Plus that will also effect Epics Unreal Game Engine for iOS developers. Apple is going out of their way to punish Epic now. That to me is Apple being a bully. Google also banned Epics Fortnite game app from the play store, but Google is not going to ban Epics developer account for Android apps.
Apple is looking to ban Epics developer account on the 27th, which will ban all of Epics apps on the app store. Plus that will also effect Epics Unreal Game Engine for iOS developers. Apple is going out of their way to punish Epic now. That to me is Apple being a bully. Google also banned Epics Fortnite game app from the play store, but Google is not going to ban Epics developer account for Android apps.
Its also showing Apples true colors.
Apple give them 14-Day to comply with the rules EPIC AGREED TO. Do you think Apple will let a childish developer that doesn’t want to follow the rules be in the App Store with apps that can no longer be updated or downloaded? Epic is the one who needs to think about the consequences of they being kicked from the App Store as a developer. Do they thought that by making an ad, then starting a twitter storm while being ready to present a sue were going to be enough to bully Apple into changing the rules or looking the other way for them? Epic should be thinking about loosing 70% cut plus no more licensing Unreal Engine to iOS developers. Who’s the one with the bully behavior?
Apple is not going out of its way for anything. They are just letting the AGREEMENTS speak for themselves.
Good for Epic, I’m glad they are sticking up for themselves and hope Apple is taught a lesson and issued a heavy fine. It cannot have ‘special’ deals with Netflix and Spotify and Uber and expect everyone else to not complain! Apple is about as ‘fair’ as a street hustler.
Apple is looking to ban Epics developer account on the 27th, which will ban all of Epics apps on the app store. Plus that will also effect Epics Unreal Game Engine for iOS developers. Apple is going out of their way to punish Epic now. That to me is Apple being a bully. Google also banned Epics Fortnite game app from the play store, but Google is not going to ban Epics developer account for Android apps.
Its also showing Apples true colors.
Apple going to revoke Epic developer license has more to do with just Epic violation of Apple App Store policy with their Fortnite app. That only got Fortnite banned from the Apple App Store. As it did the Google Play Store. But Apple discover that Epic has committed several other violation of their developer license and sent Epic this letter. Which in parts read ........
>Upon further review of the activity associated with your Apple Developer Program membership, we have identified several violations of the Apple Developer Program License Agreement. Therefore, your Apple Developer Program account will be terminated if the violations set forth below are not cured within 14 days. [...]
If your membership is terminated, you may no longer submit apps to the App Store, and your apps still available for distribution will be removed. You will also lose access to the following programs, technologies, and capabilities: ..........
We hope that you are able to cure your breaches of the Apple Program License Agreement and continue to participate in the program.<
I'm sure that if Epic had violated other aspects of their developer license with Google, Google would also be forced into a position where they will give Epic a warning and a chance to remedy it, before revoking their license. Having Fortnite in the Play Store means even less to Google, than it does to Apple.
Apple is acting as if they generated over a billion users on their own, without the help of 3rd party developers' apps increasing the value of their platform for consumers. I wouldn't think Apple has much of a hill to stand on, but apparently a large number of people feel the need to justify their iPhone purchases by convincing themselves that getting someone to agree to a bad deal makes that deal okay.
This new fact confirms what there is behind Epic’s shouting and crying about Apple’s monopoly and about absence of freedom in AppStore.
Money, money and ones again money!
There really wasn’t any question about it. If Epic could have shown they have been damaged by paying Apple 30%, then they might have a point in this lawsuit. What they have shown is that Apple made them a lot of money and took care of the hosting, billing and bookkeeping for Fortnite for 30% of billions.
Those poor bastards.
Hosting? Apple doesn't host the game servers. They host the server where a tiny app lives that Apple forces Epic customer to download from. That's it. Once downloaded, Apple's job is done. Why should Apple get 30% for "billing and bookkeeping" when Epic is perfectly capable of doing that itself if not for the fact that Apple forces them to go through Apple and pay 30%? I wonder how many bookkeepers in the companies of the world get 30% of the companies revenue (not profit, but gross revenue)? I'd venture a guess of practically NONE.
To be fair, Epic should charge $1.99 for the app, and Apple gets 30% of that. Then, all the IAP's are through Epic payment systems since Apple has nothing to do with that.
That’s like a store at a mall forcing everyone to walk through its shop and pay it commission for using its premises
Apple, in your story, is the mall itself, not a store. Epic wants to run a store at the mall and not pay rent, yet still make money selling stuff. That’s what’s going on here.
Comments
Fortnite is a multi-gigabyte download, that I sampled myself, when it came out. As a free app, I didn't pay nothing to download it. I played around for a time, thought it not to my taste, and removed the app. I didn't try it because of the hype, but because I had previously bought Epic wares, like the Infinity Blade games, and really enjoyed them, so it was a developer I trusted with my most precious resource: time (not money, really)!
Nonetheless, that download cost Apple. Someone on another discussion about this estimated the cost of all Fortnite downloads on Apple's hardware if it wee hosted on AWS, and if the rollout happened over 3–4 months. The bill was on 90,000.00 US dollars a month! That's real money to anyone I know. Apple operates its own datacenters, so let's say the cost was about half of that still leaves us on a total 200 thousand ballpark. Does any reasonable person thinks it's fair to Apple to foot the bill?
Apple also took care of many operating costs, like bill processing, credit cards, taxes, etc. Epic is big enough to handle those themselves, but not every developer. And the App Store treats everyone the same, as a level playing field. Marketing costs are real also, although I'd doubt the value of that, given the massive campaign I remember from that game. You just could not go anywhere and don't see it in some form, back in the day.
Apple also developed all API used to bring the game to life on all Apple platforms. If you think that cost is covered by a yearly $99 fee, you are delusional. The way I see it, Apple only charges that fee to keep "weekend developers" (or people with more enthusiasm than technical skill) out of the platform, managing the burden on reviewing crappy apps.
In your work, don't you use specialized tools and/or software to be more productive, or at all efficient? Didn't you had to pay upfront for those tools? Or if they were really expensive, lease them? This here is the same thing. Apple makes nothing upfront on free apps. But it does want something, for their contributions, when and if, the developer gets paid.
Finally, there is also customer reachability. Apple and my bank are the only ones that I trust with my credit card data. There is really no one else with that information. I've seen too many leaks and fraud with people close to me to stray from this stance. I've never had trouble with my card, only changing it when it expires. I'm not going to change that now. If it is not on the App Store, or if it does not accept Apple Pay, it doesn't exist to me. And I've never missed a purchase!
So yeah, to my thinking, that 30% offers great value!
Every customer will get special treatment if they are VIP. That’s jusT how the real world works.
If you run a restaurant and a customer orders a $100k bottle of champagne, wouldn’t you give that customer special treatment?
Disingenuous argument.
not Epic or any other Company that develops Apps
As for Epic They agreed to 30% payment in an agreement and now want it all because they are successful and greedy
REMEMBER Nobody wins and if Epic is banned from the App Store on August 28 it’s a huge loss for them as far as future games etc
Its also showing Apples true colors.
>Upon further review of the activity associated with your Apple Developer Program membership, we have identified several violations of the Apple Developer Program License Agreement. Therefore, your Apple Developer Program account will be terminated if the violations set forth below are not cured within 14 days. [...]
If your membership is terminated, you may no longer submit apps to the App Store, and your apps still available for distribution will be removed. You will also lose access to the following programs, technologies, and capabilities: ..........
We hope that you are able to cure your breaches of the Apple Program License Agreement and continue to participate in the program.<
I'm sure that if Epic had violated other aspects of their developer license with Google, Google would also be forced into a position where they will give Epic a warning and a chance to remedy it, before revoking their license. Having Fortnite in the Play Store means even less to Google, than it does to Apple.