No law in the country can force Apple to do business with Epic on the App Store. I’m kinda hoping Apple dig in their heels and just never let them come back in. Fads come and go, Fortnite May have gone the way of Angry Birds by the time all this is over.
And had Apple taken gaming seriously a decade ago they would have wiped Epic from the face of the Earth. I wanna see Apple create a unified Apple Engine for game developers.
Some of us don't want to see Unreal Engine go away. What you guys are missing is that part of the reason we have so many games on macOS/iOS is because Unreal Engine and Unity will *also* compile for those platforms on top of Windows/Linux/XBox/Playstation/Android. Not to mention the amount of realtime film production now being done using Unreal and other XR, animation, previz, etc applications outside of gaming altogether.
Epic's fairly hypocritical stance regarding the 30% doesn't help their cause at all, though their slice of the sale is only 12%. Unfortunately many of the rabid Apple fanatics here can't see the wood for the trees and blindly defend everything Apple does like it's some kind of religious deity, rather than a for-profit company that couldn't give two shits about some fanatic obsessively defending them. And apparently Apple can't see the wood for the trees either (not really news there though, they're screwing their Mac users by continuing to snub Nvidia, but that's a different story).
Anyway, losing the Mac userbase is very little concern for Epic, it's probably less than 1% of their revenue. However, it means a *lot* of the Mac games will vanish and will have a lot more effect on Mac users than Epic. A lot of Apple Arcade games are built with the Unreal engine too. In fact almost all the best and most impressive games on AA (i.e. not rehashed versions of the crappy mobile style games that make up 80% of the App Store just with the IAPs removed) are built with UE - and Epic was quick to support Metal with UE. Losing the UE from the Mac and iOS would be a massive blow to Mac and iOS gaming, and ultimately could cause a shift to Android for people who game heavily on iOS.
More and more these days Apple is acting like a bully and it doesn't sit at all well with me. Or the regulators, apparently. It wouldn't be so bad if they actually did something with the money they're raking in rather using it as a platform to spout pious rhetoric from.
Wow! You immediately changed my mind in this debate ‘cos you live by your own examples …so much. That was not rabid at all.
Just ban all in-app purchases for games and the like, no in-game curency, no loot-boxes, no problem.
This !! I hate in-app purchase from day one. You can see the game is free to download, but contains in-app purchases ranging from 1 to 100 dollars.. and wishing how much you have to pay for full experience!? Indeed you eventually fall in love with the game and ending up paying extreme. This is why I’m avoiding these games. I would rather pay 30 dollars once - video preview is enough to make a picture.
No law in the country can force Apple to do business with Epic on the App Store. I’m kinda hoping Apple dig in their heels and just never let them come back in. Fads come and go, Fortnite May have gone the way of Angry Birds by the time all this is over.
And had Apple taken gaming seriously a decade ago they would have wiped Epic from the face of the Earth. I wanna see Apple create a unified Apple Engine for game developers.
Some of us don't want to see Unreal Engine go away. What you guys are missing is that part of the reason we have so many games on macOS/iOS is because Unreal Engine and Unity will *also* compile for those platforms on top of Windows/Linux/XBox/Playstation/Android. Not to mention the amount of realtime film production now being done using Unreal and other XR, animation, previz, etc applications outside of gaming altogether.
And a lot of high end developers DO wanna use Unreal. What's your point?
With Apple Silicon Mac coming Apple should develop a better engine that will support all Apple devices.
Edit: Sorry Misread your post as "Some of us don't wanna use Unreal Engine, Go Away!" As in "Unreal Engine isn't important".
Just ban all in-app purchases for games and the like, no in-game curency, no loot-boxes, no problem.
This !! I hate in-app purchase from day one. You can see the game is free to download, but contains in-app purchases ranging from 1 to 100 dollars.. and wishing how much you have to pay for full experience!? Indeed you eventually fall in love with the game and ending up paying extreme. This is why I’m avoiding these games. I would rather pay 30 dollars once - video preview is enough to make a picture.
Some games offer full unlock price. Choices should be entirely up to the developers. They are the ones who wanted these options.
I don't think that Apple needs to create a game engine that only works for Apple. This won't work for game developers who want to target multiple targets all at once. Instead, they could help and add to an open source project (like Godot) and promote the hell out of that! This way they can help influence and enhance a really good open source project, and they do not need to create something just because Epic got their panties into a twist and shoved up their ass...
No law in the country can force Apple to do business with Epic on the App Store. I’m kinda hoping Apple dig in their heels and just never let them come back in. Fads come and go, Fortnite May have gone the way of Angry Birds by the time all this is over.
And had Apple taken gaming seriously a decade ago they would have wiped Epic from the face of the Earth. I wanna see Apple create a unified Apple Engine for game developers.
Some of us don't want to see Unreal Engine go away. What you guys are missing is that part of the reason we have so many games on macOS/iOS is because Unreal Engine and Unity will *also* compile for those platforms on top of Windows/Linux/XBox/Playstation/Android. Not to mention the amount of realtime film production now being done using Unreal and other XR, animation, previz, etc applications outside of gaming altogether.
Ok after I re-read your reply. I get what you're saying, Unreal is a GREAT engine.
My point is Apple should do it BETTER and take their marketshare. Make it faster and completely compatible with all Apple chips with extras. Possibly license it to all App licensees for free.
I truly believe Apple has the talent and capital to do it BETTER. THIS is the perfect time for Apple to get into gaming seriously. Not some Apple Arcade crap but become a serious name in gaming.
I don't think that Apple needs to create a game engine that only works for Apple. This won't work for game developers who want to target multiple targets all at once. Instead, they could help and add to an open source project (like Godot) and promote the hell out of that! This way they can help influence and enhance a really good open source project, and they do not need to create something just because Epic got their panties into a twist and shoved up their ass...
No, an Apple exclusive engine would be bad ass. Why? Because it will not be fragmented or compromised to support everything and will focus 100% on Apple's chips, APIs, hardware, EVERYTHING. This engine could be the most powerful in the world DAY ONE. Vertical integration.
No law in the country can force Apple to do business with Epic on the App Store. I’m kinda hoping Apple dig in their heels and just never let them come back in. Fads come and go, Fortnite May have gone the way of Angry Birds by the time all this is over.
And had Apple taken gaming seriously a decade ago they would have wiped Epic from the face of the Earth. I wanna see Apple create a unified Apple Engine for game developers.
Some of us don't want to see Unreal Engine go away. What you guys are missing is that part of the reason we have so many games on macOS/iOS is because Unreal Engine and Unity will *also* compile for those platforms on top of Windows/Linux/XBox/Playstation/Android. Not to mention the amount of realtime film production now being done using Unreal and other XR, animation, previz, etc applications outside of gaming altogether.
Anyway, losing the Mac userbase is very little concern for Epic, it's probably less than 1% of their revenue.
"If the Unreal Engine can no longer support Apple platforms, the software developers that use it will be forced to use alternatives. The damage to Epic’s ongoing business and to its reputation and trust with its customers will be unquantifiable and irreparable. Preliminary injunctive relief is necessary to prevent Apple from crushing Epic before this case could ever get to judgment.”
I don't think that Apple needs to create a game engine that only works for Apple. This won't work for game developers who want to target multiple targets all at once. Instead, they could help and add to an open source project (like Godot) and promote the hell out of that! This way they can help influence and enhance a really good open source project, and they do not need to create something just because Epic got their panties into a twist and shoved up their ass...
No, an Apple exclusive engine would be bad ass. Why? Because it will not be fragmented or compromised to support everything and will focus 100% on Apple's chips, APIs, hardware, EVERYTHING. This engine could be the most powerful in the world DAY ONE. Vertical integration.
The fact that you are missing is that game developers do notwant to just target one audience, they want to target multiple. Now, Apple could make one just for the Apple ecosystem, but I think that would be a whole lot harder than contributing to something that already exists that is open source. That way they can make sure it is fast and efficient for Apple's ecosystem, and still be focused on the things that really make them money.
I don't think that Apple needs to create a game engine that only works for Apple. This won't work for game developers who want to target multiple targets all at once. Instead, they could help and add to an open source project (like Godot) and promote the hell out of that! This way they can help influence and enhance a really good open source project, and they do not need to create something just because Epic got their panties into a twist and shoved up their ass...
No, an Apple exclusive engine would be bad ass. Why? Because it will not be fragmented or compromised to support everything and will focus 100% on Apple's chips, APIs, hardware, EVERYTHING. This engine could be the most powerful in the world DAY ONE. Vertical integration.
The fact that you are missing is that game developers do notwant to just target one audience, they want to target multiple. Now, Apple could make one just for the Apple ecosystem, but I think that would be a whole lot harder than contributing to something that already exists that is open source. That way they can make sure it is fast and efficient for Apple's ecosystem, and still be focused on the things that really make them money.
No, I'm thinking long term, you're thinking today.
This engine will be the best in the world since the software and hardware are tightly integrated and in the long run Apple will have more exclusives leading to... guess what? MORE sales. It's a feedback loop.
Apple could jumpstart adoption by acquiring a small studio or creating a game studio that utilizes the engine and creates great games.
Anyway, losing the Mac userbase is very little concern for Epic, it's probably less than 1% of their revenue.
My guess is it is financially it is closer to 15-20%; see https://www.businessofapps.com/data/fortnite-statistics/. Granted the piece only deals with Fortnite, but it provides you with the numbers to guesstimate the effect. If Epic Games were a publicly traded company, shareholders would be up in arms!
No law in the country can force Apple to do business with Epic on the App Store. I’m kinda hoping Apple dig in their heels and just never let them come back in. Fads come and go, Fortnite May have gone the way of Angry Birds by the time all this is over.
And had Apple taken gaming seriously a decade ago they would have wiped Epic from the face of the Earth. I wanna see Apple create a unified Apple Engine for game developers.
Some of us don't want to see Unreal Engine go away. What you guys are missing is that part of the reason we have so many games on macOS/iOS is because Unreal Engine and Unity will *also* compile for those platforms on top of Windows/Linux/XBox/Playstation/Android. Not to mention the amount of realtime film production now being done using Unreal and other XR, animation, previz, etc applications outside of gaming altogether.
Anyway, losing the Mac userbase is very little concern for Epic, it's probably less than 1% of their revenue.
"If the Unreal Engine can no longer support Apple platforms, the software developers that use it will be forced to use alternatives. The damage to Epic’s ongoing business and to its reputation and trust with its customers will be unquantifiable and irreparable. Preliminary injunctive relief is necessary to prevent Apple from crushing Epic before this case could ever get to judgment.”
-Epics attorney
Apple is not banning Unreal Engine, Epic is choosing to leave the platform because they no longer wish to follow the decade old rules. Apple has offered them to come back with open arms as long as they follow the rules that everyone else follows. If Epic continues this path of leaving by their own accord, as you wrote, software developers will be forced to alternatives or leave the platform entirely damaging Apple's reputation and trust with its customers. Preliminary injunctive relief is not necessary because it is already available. They can continue doing business by following the rules that they've been following and still proceed with court. What are you expecting the courts to say. They should be allowed to break the rules for the years this is going to take. Right now it's Epic that is in breech and they hold all the cards to decide the path going forward.
Epic's fairly hypocritical stance regarding the 30% doesn't help their cause at all, though their slice of the sale is only 12%. Unfortunately many of the rabid Apple fanatics here can't see the wood for the trees and blindly defend everything Apple does like it's some kind of religious deity, rather than a for-profit company that couldn't give two shits about some fanatic obsessively defending them. And apparently Apple can't see the wood for the trees either (not really news there though, they're screwing their Mac users by continuing to snub Nvidia, but that's a different story).
Anyway, losing the Mac userbase is very little concern for Epic, it's probably less than 1% of their revenue. However, it means a *lot* of the Mac games will vanish and will have a lot more effect on Mac users than Epic. A lot of Apple Arcade games are built with the Unreal engine too. In fact almost all the best and most impressive games on AA (i.e. not rehashed versions of the crappy mobile style games that make up 80% of the App Store just with the IAPs removed) are built with UE - and Epic was quick to support Metal with UE. Losing the UE from the Mac and iOS would be a massive blow to Mac and iOS gaming, and ultimately could cause a shift to Android for people who game heavily on iOS.
More and more these days Apple is acting like a bully and it doesn't sit at all well with me. Or the regulators, apparently. It wouldn't be so bad if they actually did something with the money they're raking in rather using it as a platform to spout pious rhetoric from.
So Apple is bad because it operates a closed App Store and charges 30% margins. The game consoles do essentially the same thing. So what's the excuse for not going after Sony and Microsoft? The Epic guy is probably a great coder but he has near zero understanding of markets. Epic will be laughed out of court on this one, and their law firm is committing malpractice by not advising its client that there is no case to litigate.
Although I wish Apple would reduce their rent seeking in the App Store, they will probably win. At best Apple will only make a token change to the rules to look better in the court of public opinion. Ultimately I'll put up with it because I'm not switching to Android.
No law in the country can force Apple to do business with Epic on the App Store. I’m kinda hoping Apple dig in their heels and just never let them come back in. Fads come and go, Fortnite May have gone the way of Angry Birds by the time all this is over.
And had Apple taken gaming seriously a decade ago they would have wiped Epic from the face of the Earth. I wanna see Apple create a unified Apple Engine for game developers.
Some of us don't want to see Unreal Engine go away. What you guys are missing is that part of the reason we have so many games on macOS/iOS is because Unreal Engine and Unity will *also* compile for those platforms on top of Windows/Linux/XBox/Playstation/Android. Not to mention the amount of realtime film production now being done using Unreal and other XR, animation, previz, etc applications outside of gaming altogether.
Epic's fairly hypocritical stance regarding the 30% doesn't help their cause at all, though their slice of the sale is only 12%. Unfortunately many of the rabid Apple fanatics here can't see the wood for the trees and blindly defend everything Apple does like it's some kind of religious deity, rather than a for-profit company that couldn't give two shits about some fanatic obsessively defending them. And apparently Apple can't see the wood for the trees either (not really news there though, they're screwing their Mac users by continuing to snub Nvidia, but that's a different story).
Anyway, losing the Mac userbase is very little concern for Epic, it's probably less than 1% of their revenue. However, it means a *lot* of the Mac games will vanish and will have a lot more effect on Mac users than Epic. A lot of Apple Arcade games are built with the Unreal engine too. In fact almost all the best and most impressive games on AA (i.e. not rehashed versions of the crappy mobile style games that make up 80% of the App Store just with the IAPs removed) are built with UE - and Epic was quick to support Metal with UE. Losing the UE from the Mac and iOS would be a massive blow to Mac and iOS gaming, and ultimately could cause a shift to Android for people who game heavily on iOS.
More and more these days Apple is acting like a bully and it doesn't sit at all well with me. Or the regulators, apparently. It wouldn't be so bad if they actually did something with the money they're raking in rather using it as a platform to spout pious rhetoric from.
For the majority of Apple users, nor the Macs, nor the iPads, nor the iPhones are purchased because of the opportunity to play games on them. The most of the users are buying this devices primarily for very many different purposes. So don’t try to exaggerated the consequences for Apple. If there is somebody who has to worry about it, this is Epic and not Apple. It is Epic who must start now building an own store, because they are not welcome anymore in the AppStore. It's that simple.
elijahg said: However, it means a *lot* of the Mac games will vanish and will have a lot more effect on Mac users than Epic. A lot of Apple Arcade games are built with the Unreal engine too. In fact almost all the best and most impressive games on AA (i.e. not rehashed versions of the crappy mobile style games that make up 80% of the App Store just with the IAPs removed) are built with UE - and Epic was quick to support Metal with UE.
Games that have already been produced using the Unreal Engine wouldn't be effected.
No law in the country can force Apple to do business with Epic on the App Store. I’m kinda hoping Apple dig in their heels and just never let them come back in. Fads come and go, Fortnite May have gone the way of Angry Birds by the time all this is over.
And had Apple taken gaming seriously a decade ago they would have wiped Epic from the face of the Earth. I wanna see Apple create a unified Apple Engine for game developers.
Some of us don't want to see Unreal Engine go away. What you guys are missing is that part of the reason we have so many games on macOS/iOS is because Unreal Engine and Unity will *also* compile for those platforms on top of Windows/Linux/XBox/Playstation/Android. Not to mention the amount of realtime film production now being done using Unreal and other XR, animation, previz, etc applications outside of gaming altogether.
Ok after I re-read your reply. I get what you're saying, Unreal is a GREAT engine.
My point is Apple should do it BETTER and take their marketshare. Make it faster and completely compatible with all Apple chips with extras. Possibly license it to all App licensees for free.
I truly believe Apple has the talent and capital to do it BETTER. THIS is the perfect time for Apple to get into gaming seriously. Not some Apple Arcade crap but become a serious name in gaming.
Yeah and this is a terrible idea because as I said, one of the reason we have as many games as we do is because of the platform-agnostic engine. If that no longer targets Apple, then those developers will publish for all other platforms except for Apple. It's that simple. They're not going to rebuild the game from scratch in a different engine for one other platform.
Comments
I hate in-app purchase from day one. You can see the game is free to download, but contains in-app purchases ranging from 1 to 100 dollars.. and wishing how much you have to pay for full experience!? Indeed you eventually fall in love with the game and ending up paying extreme. This is why I’m avoiding these games. I would rather pay 30 dollars once - video preview is enough to make a picture.
And a lot of high end developers DO wanna use Unreal. What's your point?
With Apple Silicon Mac coming Apple should develop a better engine that will support all Apple devices.
Edit:
Sorry Misread your post as "Some of us don't wanna use Unreal Engine, Go Away!" As in "Unreal Engine isn't important".
Ok after I re-read your reply. I get what you're saying, Unreal is a GREAT engine.
My point is Apple should do it BETTER and take their marketshare. Make it faster and completely compatible with all Apple chips with extras. Possibly license it to all App licensees for free.
I truly believe Apple has the talent and capital to do it BETTER. THIS is the perfect time for Apple to get into gaming seriously. Not some Apple Arcade crap but become a serious name in gaming.
No, an Apple exclusive engine would be bad ass. Why? Because it will not be fragmented or compromised to support everything and will focus 100% on Apple's chips, APIs, hardware, EVERYTHING. This engine could be the most powerful in the world DAY ONE. Vertical integration.
"If the Unreal Engine can no longer support Apple platforms, the software developers that use it will be forced to use alternatives. The damage to Epic’s ongoing business and to its reputation and trust with its customers will be unquantifiable and irreparable. Preliminary injunctive relief is necessary to prevent Apple from crushing Epic before this case could ever get to judgment.”
-Epics attorney
No, I'm thinking long term, you're thinking today.
This engine will be the best in the world since the software and hardware are tightly integrated and in the long run Apple will have more exclusives leading to... guess what? MORE sales. It's a feedback loop.
Apple could jumpstart adoption by acquiring a small studio or creating a game studio that utilizes the engine and creates great games.
- Apples attorney
The most of the users are buying this devices primarily for very many different purposes.
So don’t try to exaggerated the consequences for Apple. If there is somebody who has to worry about it, this is Epic and not Apple.
It is Epic who must start now building an own store, because they are not welcome anymore in the AppStore.
It's that simple.