Compared: Apple's Developer Transition Kit versus Mac mini

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 55
    MplsPMplsP Posts: 3,911member
    If you're worried about displays, HDMI 2 is capable of running 4k and HDMI 2.1 can run an 8k display, butfor all the stressing about Thunderbolt, does anyone here really think Apple hasn't considered this? They have logic and Final Cut Pro ready to go, so I can guarantee they will have the ability to connect to high speed storage as well as high resolution displays. 

    Also, Thunderbolt has a security flaw; I'm betting Apple will have their own implementation with better security.
    edited June 2020 Fidonet127patchythepiratewatto_cobra
  • Reply 42 of 55
    CheeseFreezeCheeseFreeze Posts: 1,247member
    elijahg said:
    They are taking on a lot of risk with this switch. They are assuming they can always keep ahead of the competition. AMD are steaming along right now even if Intel aren't - and if Apple can't keep up, it will be very embarrassing and even more so if there's an eventual switch from Apple Silicon to AMD (or back to Intel).
    I'm sure they never analysed or considered "the risk." [rolls eyes]
    Did he imply otherwise? He is just saying he thinks they are taking a huge risk. 
  • Reply 43 of 55
    CheeseFreezeCheeseFreeze Posts: 1,247member

    You are right, they are, but at the same time don't forget Apple has been working on this since the very first iPhone. In fact I'd be willing to bet that before the Intel guy was on stage at WWDC '06, Apple had a road map leading up to yesterday.
    I seriously doubt that. They weren’t the same company as today, nor the industry was. More likely the R&D started when their iPad business was taking shape, so around the A5 or A6 chip following their first A4 one, and started operating at scale.
    When they launched their initial iPhone they didn’t even make any of their own chips.

    People overestimate Apple in their “vision”. They are masters at execution and extremely methodological, but they don’t have a crystal ball. When they released their App Store their advice to developers was to make HTML apps. Their first App Store process was horrible. What they did was recognize the demand, and succeed with execution and by greatly simplifying the process through constant execution. 
    Jobs failed with music by not embracing streaming. Only by being very aggressive and a very methodological approach they were able to become 2nd place. Many more examples... they are bound by the same constraints as any other company.

    Where Apple will succeed extremely well is AR. They have been preparing this for 6-8 years or so, and that is one area they will leapfrog anyone else once they release the hardware. 
    edited June 2020
  • Reply 44 of 55
    jdb8167jdb8167 Posts: 626member
    melgross said:
    melgross said:

    melgross said:

    melgross said:
    You see, it’s the lack of thunderbolt that’s worries me. I know some will say that it’s “just” a developer machine. But that doesn’t explain it. Thunderbolt is part of the PCIe bus. But it’s also an Intel product. It’s the same problem we have with the iPad Pro not having it. I’m sure that I’m not the only iPad Pro user that badly wants this.

    if Apple can’t get thunderbolt on ARM Macs, that will be a big problem.
    There is no logic for Apple not getting Thunderbolt on public ARM MACs. Likely it will be the USB4 variant, due to thunderbolt being part of the USB4 spec and cheaper for everyone to use.
    There are TB controllers that only work with x86. Intel is also going to put it directly into their x86 chips, so no controller needed. But that doesn’t help ARM in the slightest. USB 4 doesn’t resolve the issue.
    So you are saying, despite all the experience of Apple designing chips, that they will be unable or unwilling to put Thunderbolt in the ARM computers? Despite all the years of pushing Thunderbolt, and all these massive storage arrays using Thunderbolt? Despite being part of the USB4? Yes I know USB4 doesn't mean Thunderbolt is a given, however Apple will only give up Thunderbolt if there is something better. I'm not saying it will be on all ARM MACs, but I will bet it will be on some ARM MACs. The FUD with Apple not having Thunderbolt on ARM MACs is silly and ridiculous. Give Apple some time to showcase their stuff before complaining. 
    This has to do with licensing. So, without USB4, Apple would have to buy controller chips from Intel. With USB4, if it’s possible, and Apple really wants to bother, then yes, they would have to engineer it into their ARM chips. But remember that it’s really an x86 PCIE technology right now. It’s not explicitly forbidden under USB4, it’s allowed. But it would take a lot of work. It took Intel themselves years to engineer it into their own CPU. Remember that Intel doesn’t have to help. Normally, it’s expected that systems will have a PCIE bus, and an Intel chip with controller chips. Or now, a gen 10 Intel chip. Or, with USB4, an AMD chip with controller.

    The general information given out says that manufacturers of phones, or other devices, meaning ARM, could, if they wanted to, design it in, but it’s considered not likely. With Apple, it’s not really their phones or iPads, but Macs. I just recently bought a 32TB raid. I would be annoyed if I bought a new ARM Mac and couldn’t use it.
    This entire thread, you have been worried and saying it isn’t likely that ARM MACs are going to have Thunderbolt. The point is it is possible for ARM MACs to have Thunderbolt. Period. Apple isn’t going to have Thunderbolt in this ARM MAC simply because they are not ready to reveal new hardware at this point. They don’t want us to know the shipping chips. Apple knows these machines are going to be tested. Apple has been working on this for years now and it is entirely possible for Apple to have Thunderbolt on the shipping ARM MACs. Apple thinks they can replace their entire MAC line and yet you are worried that they will not have Thunderbolt on the ARM MACs? Really? You really think they won’t have Thunderbolt on at least the iMac PROs and Mac Pros? You haven’t pointed out anywhere that Apple can’t have Thunderbolt on the ARM MACs. 
    I didn’t say anywhere that it’s unlikely that ARM Macs will get TB. I’m saying to those who are incorrectly saying that TB comes with USB4 automatically, that it doesn’t. It’s optional. It’s also basically an x86 based technology. Can it be converted over to ARM? Sure, but for a good amount of R&D and cost. The truth is you don’t know any more about what Apple is planning than anyone else here. I don’t know. I hope they will have it. But how? It’s not a trivial question, and until we see it, we can’t assume it will be there. Apparently, USB4 can be just as fast. It has the same 40Gb/s speed available. It’s not like Apple hasn’t dropped a technology they heavily supported before. Remember FireWire, that they developed? It was on every digital video camera. But Apple lost interest. We never got the 1.6GHz version, much less the 3.2GHz version Apple had talked about. If USB4 is cheaper, which likely it is, and easier to implement, very possible, and if it, unlike TB, will be supported on every new computer, then they could to just drop TB.

    how many other transport technologies have they dropped when they thought something better came along? It’s foolish to think they won’t do it again if it suits them. I’m hoping, for selfish reasons, after having spent over $1,700 for a new TB raid and upgraded software, that they will keep supporting it. But I’m under no illusion that it’s a definite thing, though I hope it is.
    Can you explain why you think adding Thunderbolt 3 to Apple Silicon will be difficult or why you think it is an x86 technology? From what I understand it is mostly just serialized PCIe. Apple has had PCIe on their ARM chips for interfacing with NVMe SSDs since the iPhone 6s. And don't forget Apple collaborated with Intel in the original design of Thunderbolt. I think it is likely that part of their agreement with Intel is that they retain some rights to the name. The actual protocol is fully royalty free so unless someone has information that says otherwise, I would expect there is nothing to prevent Apple from continuing to support Thunderbolt like they have for almost 10 years. I find it unlikely in the extreme that they will decide at this point when it has finally been standardized as part of the USB4 spec, that they will abandon their many years of evangelizing of TB when it is on the cusp of being widely adopted.
    edited June 2020 Fidonet127
  • Reply 45 of 55
    rundhvidrundhvid Posts: 122member
    melgross said:
    You see, it’s the lack of thunderbolt that’s worries me. I know some will say that it’s “just” a developer machine. But that doesn’t explain it. Thunderbolt is part of the PCIe bus. But it’s also an Intel product. It’s the same problem we have with the iPad Pro not having it. I’m sure that I’m not the only iPad Pro user that badly wants this.

    if Apple can’t get thunderbolt on ARM Macs, that will be a big problem.
    This is purely an imagined limitation without any implication for the upcoming consumer products, in my opinion.
    How so?
    Last year,  released the XDR display along with the Mac Pro. This display has a single input—Thunderbolt 3.
    As the transition to  Silicon has been underway for several years, it is highly unlikely that this transition will render the XDR display incompatible with all new macOS devices (sans the remaining Intel-based devices to be released over the coming 24 months).
    In fact, the Keynote confirmed that the pre-production macOS machine indeed is compatible with the XDR display.
  • Reply 46 of 55
    taddtadd Posts: 136member
    rob53 said:

    melgross said:
    You see, it’s the lack of thunderbolt that’s worries me. I know some will say that it’s “just” a developer machine. But that doesn’t explain it. Thunderbolt is part of the PCIe bus. But it’s also an Intel product. It’s the same problem we have with the iPad Pro not having it. I’m sure that I’m not the only iPad Pro user that badly wants this.

    if Apple can’t get thunderbolt on ARM Macs, that will be a big problem.
    Isn't USB also an Intel product? Isn't USB-4 supposed to merge USB and Thunderbolt? What about Thunderbolt wouldn't be covered by USB-4? I know right now they're both using the USB-C port but also that there are technical differences between the two. 

    As for not including Thunderbolt right now, I don't see that as being that big of a deal except for those developers who want to access their large TB disk arrays for testing. I'm sure Apple will be upset if/when a developer decides to open one of the test Minis and shows a kludged together iPad motherboard with external RAM and SSD. Maybe Apple actually built a "real" Apple Silicon (is this what we're going to call the new line of Macs?) Mac mini motherboard without anyone actually knowing about it. I haven't seen any rumors about an AS mini (better?) popping up on the web so either it's a totally internal breadboard build or Apple was actually able to get the manufacturer to keep their damn mouths shut this time. 
    Apple had USB keyboard, mouse, and accessories back when they were using IBM/Motorolla PowerPC CPUs, i.e. before they switched to Intel.  
    watto_cobramattinoz
  • Reply 47 of 55
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member
    jdb8167 said:
    melgross said:
    melgross said:

    melgross said:

    melgross said:
    You see, it’s the lack of thunderbolt that’s worries me. I know some will say that it’s “just” a developer machine. But that doesn’t explain it. Thunderbolt is part of the PCIe bus. But it’s also an Intel product. It’s the same problem we have with the iPad Pro not having it. I’m sure that I’m not the only iPad Pro user that badly wants this.

    if Apple can’t get thunderbolt on ARM Macs, that will be a big problem.
    There is no logic for Apple not getting Thunderbolt on public ARM MACs. Likely it will be the USB4 variant, due to thunderbolt being part of the USB4 spec and cheaper for everyone to use.
    There are TB controllers that only work with x86. Intel is also going to put it directly into their x86 chips, so no controller needed. But that doesn’t help ARM in the slightest. USB 4 doesn’t resolve the issue.
    So you are saying, despite all the experience of Apple designing chips, that they will be unable or unwilling to put Thunderbolt in the ARM computers? Despite all the years of pushing Thunderbolt, and all these massive storage arrays using Thunderbolt? Despite being part of the USB4? Yes I know USB4 doesn't mean Thunderbolt is a given, however Apple will only give up Thunderbolt if there is something better. I'm not saying it will be on all ARM MACs, but I will bet it will be on some ARM MACs. The FUD with Apple not having Thunderbolt on ARM MACs is silly and ridiculous. Give Apple some time to showcase their stuff before complaining. 
    This has to do with licensing. So, without USB4, Apple would have to buy controller chips from Intel. With USB4, if it’s possible, and Apple really wants to bother, then yes, they would have to engineer it into their ARM chips. But remember that it’s really an x86 PCIE technology right now. It’s not explicitly forbidden under USB4, it’s allowed. But it would take a lot of work. It took Intel themselves years to engineer it into their own CPU. Remember that Intel doesn’t have to help. Normally, it’s expected that systems will have a PCIE bus, and an Intel chip with controller chips. Or now, a gen 10 Intel chip. Or, with USB4, an AMD chip with controller.

    The general information given out says that manufacturers of phones, or other devices, meaning ARM, could, if they wanted to, design it in, but it’s considered not likely. With Apple, it’s not really their phones or iPads, but Macs. I just recently bought a 32TB raid. I would be annoyed if I bought a new ARM Mac and couldn’t use it.
    This entire thread, you have been worried and saying it isn’t likely that ARM MACs are going to have Thunderbolt. The point is it is possible for ARM MACs to have Thunderbolt. Period. Apple isn’t going to have Thunderbolt in this ARM MAC simply because they are not ready to reveal new hardware at this point. They don’t want us to know the shipping chips. Apple knows these machines are going to be tested. Apple has been working on this for years now and it is entirely possible for Apple to have Thunderbolt on the shipping ARM MACs. Apple thinks they can replace their entire MAC line and yet you are worried that they will not have Thunderbolt on the ARM MACs? Really? You really think they won’t have Thunderbolt on at least the iMac PROs and Mac Pros? You haven’t pointed out anywhere that Apple can’t have Thunderbolt on the ARM MACs. 
    I didn’t say anywhere that it’s unlikely that ARM Macs will get TB. I’m saying to those who are incorrectly saying that TB comes with USB4 automatically, that it doesn’t. It’s optional. It’s also basically an x86 based technology. Can it be converted over to ARM? Sure, but for a good amount of R&D and cost. The truth is you don’t know any more about what Apple is planning than anyone else here. I don’t know. I hope they will have it. But how? It’s not a trivial question, and until we see it, we can’t assume it will be there. Apparently, USB4 can be just as fast. It has the same 40Gb/s speed available. It’s not like Apple hasn’t dropped a technology they heavily supported before. Remember FireWire, that they developed? It was on every digital video camera. But Apple lost interest. We never got the 1.6GHz version, much less the 3.2GHz version Apple had talked about. If USB4 is cheaper, which likely it is, and easier to implement, very possible, and if it, unlike TB, will be supported on every new computer, then they could to just drop TB.

    how many other transport technologies have they dropped when they thought something better came along? It’s foolish to think they won’t do it again if it suits them. I’m hoping, for selfish reasons, after having spent over $1,700 for a new TB raid and upgraded software, that they will keep supporting it. But I’m under no illusion that it’s a definite thing, though I hope it is.
    Can you explain why you think adding Thunderbolt 3 to Apple Silicon will be difficult or why you think it is an x86 technology? From what I understand it is mostly just serialized PCIe. Apple has had PCIe on their ARM chips for interfacing with NVMe SSDs since the iPhone 6s. And don't forget Apple collaborated with Intel in the original design of Thunderbolt. I think it is likely that part of their agreement with Intel is that they retain some rights to the name. The actual protocol is fully royalty free so unless someone has information that says otherwise, I would expect there is nothing to prevent Apple from continuing to support Thunderbolt like they have for almost 10 years. I find it unlikely in the extreme that they will decide at this point when it has finally been standardized as part of the USB4 spec, that they will abandon their many years of evangelizing of TB when it is on the cusp of being widely adopted.
    rundhvid said:
    melgross said:
    You see, it’s the lack of thunderbolt that’s worries me. I know some will say that it’s “just” a developer machine. But that doesn’t explain it. Thunderbolt is part of the PCIe bus. But it’s also an Intel product. It’s the same problem we have with the iPad Pro not having it. I’m sure that I’m not the only iPad Pro user that badly wants this.

    if Apple can’t get thunderbolt on ARM Macs, that will be a big problem.
    This is purely an imagined limitation without any implication for the upcoming consumer products, in my opinion.
    How so?
    Last year,  released the XDR display along with the Mac Pro. This display has a single input—Thunderbolt 3.
    As the transition to  Silicon has been underway for several years, it is highly unlikely that this transition will render the XDR display incompatible with all new macOS devices (sans the remaining Intel-based devices to be released over the coming 24 months).
    In fact, the Keynote confirmed that the pre-production macOS machine indeed is compatible with the XDR display.
    Without getting into more technical discussions, I’m hoping you’re right.
  • Reply 48 of 55
    DetnatorDetnator Posts: 287member
    elijahg said:

    melgross said:

    melgross said:
    You see, it’s the lack of thunderbolt that’s worries me. I know some will say that it’s “just” a developer machine. But that doesn’t explain it. Thunderbolt is part of the PCIe bus. But it’s also an Intel product. It’s the same problem we have with the iPad Pro not having it. I’m sure that I’m not the only iPad Pro user that badly wants this.

    if Apple can’t get thunderbolt on ARM Macs, that will be a big problem.
    There is no logic for Apple not getting Thunderbolt on public ARM MACs. Likely it will be the USB4 variant, due to thunderbolt being part of the USB4 spec and cheaper for everyone to use.
    There are TB controllers that only work with x86. Intel is also going to put it directly into their x86 chips, so no controller needed. But that doesn’t help ARM in the slightest. USB 4 doesn’t resolve the issue.
    So you are saying, despite all the experience of Apple designing chips, that they will be unable or unwilling to put Thunderbolt in the ARM computers? Despite all the years of pushing Thunderbolt, and all these massive storage arrays using Thunderbolt? Despite being part of the USB4? Yes I know USB4 doesn't mean Thunderbolt is a given, however Apple will only give up Thunderbolt if there is something better. I'm not saying it will be on all ARM MACs, but I will bet it will be on some ARM MACs. The FUD with Apple not having Thunderbolt on ARM MACs is silly and ridiculous. Give Apple some time to showcase their stuff before complaining. 
    You're saying this like Apple hasn't done similar in the past, remember just put two middle fingers up to people who just bought the $5000 MP expecting it to last 10 years.
    No one in their right mind bought the $5000 MP expecting it to be supported for 10 years.  Whether or not it will last 10 years...? Nothing changed in the past week relating to that.  
    edited June 2020
  • Reply 49 of 55
    shaminoshamino Posts: 527member
    Detnator said:
    No one in their right mind bought the $5000 MP expecting it to be supported for 10 years.  Whether or not it will last 10 years...? Nothing changed in the past week relating to that.  
    For what it's worth, my main computer at home is a 2011 Mac mini server.  Despite its "vintage" status, Apple still (sort of) supports this hardware because the most recent compatible macOS version (10.13, High Sierra) still supported (last update was this month; expected end-of-life is this November).  Yes, this is an old computer that is extremely slow by today's standards, but there is still software support, 9 years after its introduction.

    Will there be similar levels of support for Macs purchased today?  It's impossible to say.  My personal guess is that we can expect about 7 years:
    • 2 years from now until Apple stops making Intel-based Macs
    • 3 years from then until AppleCare expires on those last-generation purchases
    • 2 years until the version of macOS shipping at that time becomes end-of-life.  (macOS releases come out every year and are typically supported for 3 years, so I think we can assume 2 years of support if the AppleCare support periods expire just before a new release.  3 years if just afterward.)
    But, of course, this is all speculation.  And application support will likely end before Apple end-of-life's the last-compatible version of macOS, so you'll probably be upgrading before the end of those 7 years anyway.

  • Reply 50 of 55
    lkrupp said:
    I am most interested in the disappearance of Thunderbolt 3 in the Transition Kit. Quick and dirty to get it the hands of developers or a sign that it is going away?
    Quick and Dirty.

    I would expect that the Mac SoCs will have either internal USB 4 (which includes TB 3) Support; or an external (for now) TB 3 chip.

    Apple is in no what giving up on TB; especially not now that it is beginning to go "mainstream"!
  • Reply 51 of 55
    entropys said:
    inexoect the “true” Arm Macs will either have a seperate Tb controller or it will eventually be built into the SOC, depending on intel’s feelings.
    It isn't up to Intel anymore.

    Intel gave away the TB standard to the USB Promoter Group. Intel doesn't control Thunderbolt. That's kind of what USB 4.0 is all about:

    https://www.guru3d.com/news-story/intel-releases-thunderbolt-to-the-industry.html

    But I do agree that arm-based Macs will have either an external TB3 Controller, or it will be built-into Mac SoCs (probably later). Hopefully, they will just have USB 4.0 Integrated on the SoC.


  • Reply 52 of 55
    melgross said:
    melgross said:

    melgross said:

    melgross said:
    You see, it’s the lack of thunderbolt that’s worries me. I know some will say that it’s “just” a developer machine. But that doesn’t explain it. Thunderbolt is part of the PCIe bus. But it’s also an Intel product. It’s the same problem we have with the iPad Pro not having it. I’m sure that I’m not the only iPad Pro user that badly wants this.

    if Apple can’t get thunderbolt on ARM Macs, that will be a big problem.
    There is no logic for Apple not getting Thunderbolt on public ARM MACs. Likely it will be the USB4 variant, due to thunderbolt being part of the USB4 spec and cheaper for everyone to use.
    There are TB controllers that only work with x86. Intel is also going to put it directly into their x86 chips, so no controller needed. But that doesn’t help ARM in the slightest. USB 4 doesn’t resolve the issue.
    So you are saying, despite all the experience of Apple designing chips, that they will be unable or unwilling to put Thunderbolt in the ARM computers? Despite all the years of pushing Thunderbolt, and all these massive storage arrays using Thunderbolt? Despite being part of the USB4? Yes I know USB4 doesn't mean Thunderbolt is a given, however Apple will only give up Thunderbolt if there is something better. I'm not saying it will be on all ARM MACs, but I will bet it will be on some ARM MACs. The FUD with Apple not having Thunderbolt on ARM MACs is silly and ridiculous. Give Apple some time to showcase their stuff before complaining. 
    This has to do with licensing. So, without USB4, Apple would have to buy controller chips from Intel. With USB4, if it’s possible, and Apple really wants to bother, then yes, they would have to engineer it into their ARM chips. But remember that it’s really an x86 PCIE technology right now. It’s not explicitly forbidden under USB4, it’s allowed. But it would take a lot of work. It took Intel themselves years to engineer it into their own CPU. Remember that Intel doesn’t have to help. Normally, it’s expected that systems will have a PCIE bus, and an Intel chip with controller chips. Or now, a gen 10 Intel chip. Or, with USB4, an AMD chip with controller.

    The general information given out says that manufacturers of phones, or other devices, meaning ARM, could, if they wanted to, design it in, but it’s considered not likely. With Apple, it’s not really their phones or iPads, but Macs. I just recently bought a 32TB raid. I would be annoyed if I bought a new ARM Mac and couldn’t use it.
    This entire thread, you have been worried and saying it isn’t likely that ARM MACs are going to have Thunderbolt. The point is it is possible for ARM MACs to have Thunderbolt. Period. Apple isn’t going to have Thunderbolt in this ARM MAC simply because they are not ready to reveal new hardware at this point. They don’t want us to know the shipping chips. Apple knows these machines are going to be tested. Apple has been working on this for years now and it is entirely possible for Apple to have Thunderbolt on the shipping ARM MACs. Apple thinks they can replace their entire MAC line and yet you are worried that they will not have Thunderbolt on the ARM MACs? Really? You really think they won’t have Thunderbolt on at least the iMac PROs and Mac Pros? You haven’t pointed out anywhere that Apple can’t have Thunderbolt on the ARM MACs. 
    I didn’t say anywhere that it’s unlikely that ARM Macs will get TB. I’m saying to those who are incorrectly saying that TB comes with USB4 automatically, that it doesn’t. It’s optional. It’s also basically an x86 based technology. Can it be converted over to ARM? Sure, but for a good amount of R&D and cost. The truth is you don’t know any more about what Apple is planning than anyone else here. I don’t know. I hope they will have it. But how? It’s not a trivial question, and until we see it, we can’t assume it will be there. Apparently, USB4 can be just as fast. It has the same 40Gb/s speed available. It’s not like Apple hasn’t dropped a technology they heavily supported before. Remember FireWire, that they developed? It was on every digital video camera. But Apple lost interest. We never got the 1.6GHz version, much less the 3.2GHz version Apple had talked about. If USB4 is cheaper, which likely it is, and easier to implement, very possible, and if it, unlike TB, will be supported on every new computer, then they could to just drop TB.

    how many other transport technologies have they dropped when they thought something better came along? It’s foolish to think they won’t do it again if it suits them. I’m hoping, for selfish reasons, after having spent over $1,700 for a new TB raid and upgraded software, that they will keep supporting it. But I’m under no illusion that it’s a definite thing, though I hope it is.
    I'm not so convinced that PCIe is wedded that tightly to x86. There are many arm-SoCs that sport PCIe lanes aplenty (I saw a 32-core Ampere arm-v8 microcontroller/SoC that had, IIRC, 42 lanes); so it's already a done-deed. No black magic, nor huge R&D effort, involved...

    https://amperecomputing.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/ampere-product-brief.pdf

    In the end, it's a bus-protocol, and is well-documented and available.

    I feel 100% sure that Apple already has Mac SoCs with PCIe support. 100%. If Ampere can do it; so can Apple.
  • Reply 53 of 55
    mattinozmattinoz Posts: 2,299member
    melgross said:
    melgross said:

    melgross said:

    melgross said:
    You see, it’s the lack of thunderbolt that’s worries me. I know some will say that it’s “just” a developer machine. But that doesn’t explain it. Thunderbolt is part of the PCIe bus. But it’s also an Intel product. It’s the same problem we have with the iPad Pro not having it. I’m sure that I’m not the only iPad Pro user that badly wants this.

    if Apple can’t get thunderbolt on ARM Macs, that will be a big problem.
    There is no logic for Apple not getting Thunderbolt on public ARM MACs. Likely it will be the USB4 variant, due to thunderbolt being part of the USB4 spec and cheaper for everyone to use.
    There are TB controllers that only work with x86. Intel is also going to put it directly into their x86 chips, so no controller needed. But that doesn’t help ARM in the slightest. USB 4 doesn’t resolve the issue.
    So you are saying, despite all the experience of Apple designing chips, that they will be unable or unwilling to put Thunderbolt in the ARM computers? Despite all the years of pushing Thunderbolt, and all these massive storage arrays using Thunderbolt? Despite being part of the USB4? Yes I know USB4 doesn't mean Thunderbolt is a given, however Apple will only give up Thunderbolt if there is something better. I'm not saying it will be on all ARM MACs, but I will bet it will be on some ARM MACs. The FUD with Apple not having Thunderbolt on ARM MACs is silly and ridiculous. Give Apple some time to showcase their stuff before complaining. 
    This has to do with licensing. So, without USB4, Apple would have to buy controller chips from Intel. With USB4, if it’s possible, and Apple really wants to bother, then yes, they would have to engineer it into their ARM chips. But remember that it’s really an x86 PCIE technology right now. It’s not explicitly forbidden under USB4, it’s allowed. But it would take a lot of work. It took Intel themselves years to engineer it into their own CPU. Remember that Intel doesn’t have to help. Normally, it’s expected that systems will have a PCIE bus, and an Intel chip with controller chips. Or now, a gen 10 Intel chip. Or, with USB4, an AMD chip with controller.

    The general information given out says that manufacturers of phones, or other devices, meaning ARM, could, if they wanted to, design it in, but it’s considered not likely. With Apple, it’s not really their phones or iPads, but Macs. I just recently bought a 32TB raid. I would be annoyed if I bought a new ARM Mac and couldn’t use it.
    This entire thread, you have been worried and saying it isn’t likely that ARM MACs are going to have Thunderbolt. The point is it is possible for ARM MACs to have Thunderbolt. Period. Apple isn’t going to have Thunderbolt in this ARM MAC simply because they are not ready to reveal new hardware at this point. They don’t want us to know the shipping chips. Apple knows these machines are going to be tested. Apple has been working on this for years now and it is entirely possible for Apple to have Thunderbolt on the shipping ARM MACs. Apple thinks they can replace their entire MAC line and yet you are worried that they will not have Thunderbolt on the ARM MACs? Really? You really think they won’t have Thunderbolt on at least the iMac PROs and Mac Pros? You haven’t pointed out anywhere that Apple can’t have Thunderbolt on the ARM MACs. 
    I didn’t say anywhere that it’s unlikely that ARM Macs will get TB. I’m saying to those who are incorrectly saying that TB comes with USB4 automatically, that it doesn’t. It’s optional. It’s also basically an x86 based technology. Can it be converted over to ARM? Sure, but for a good amount of R&D and cost. The truth is you don’t know any more about what Apple is planning than anyone else here. I don’t know. I hope they will have it. But how? It’s not a trivial question, and until we see it, we can’t assume it will be there. Apparently, USB4 can be just as fast. It has the same 40Gb/s speed available. It’s not like Apple hasn’t dropped a technology they heavily supported before. Remember FireWire, that they developed? It was on every digital video camera. But Apple lost interest. We never got the 1.6GHz version, much less the 3.2GHz version Apple had talked about. If USB4 is cheaper, which likely it is, and easier to implement, very possible, and if it, unlike TB, will be supported on every new computer, then they could to just drop TB.

    how many other transport technologies have they dropped when they thought something better came along? It’s foolish to think they won’t do it again if it suits them. I’m hoping, for selfish reasons, after having spent over $1,700 for a new TB raid and upgraded software, that they will keep supporting it. But I’m under no illusion that it’s a definite thing, though I hope it is.
    I'm not so convinced that PCIe is wedded that tightly to x86. There are many arm-SoCs that sport PCIe lanes aplenty (I saw a 32-core Ampere arm-v8 microcontroller/SoC that had, IIRC, 42 lanes); so it's already a done-deed. No black magic, nor huge R&D effort, involved...

    https://amperecomputing.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/ampere-product-brief.pdf

    In the end, it's a bus-protocol, and is well-documented and available.

    I feel 100% sure that Apple already has Mac SoCs with PCIe support. 100%. If Ampere can do it; so can Apple.

    From memory one of the Fabless semiconductor companies Apple acquired was a specialist in making PCIe switches with ARM logic to drive high-end low power network gear. Apple should already have the skills to make a scalable level of PCIe lanes in their chips. The T2 chip with various on-board functions and SSD Cards support must be driving high single if not double figures in terms of lane count.
  • Reply 54 of 55
    The worry in this thread aged well. Thunderbolt will be officially supported per Apple. Will all the support in the past, lots of Pro use, and there is nothing out there better, it should been logical to see Thunderbolt in the Apple Silicon Macs or hold off the the worry until the new computers are out. 
    austinbaze
  • Reply 55 of 55
    So, no one here has seen a DTK, nor knows anyone who has?  Weight and audio port configuration seem easy to confirm.  A discussion of Thunderbolt 4 on Apple Silicon would have been helpful. Widely reported (Ars Technica, CW, The Verge, etc) continued support of Thunderbolt on Apple Silicon is out there, as are explanations as to why it is not in the DTK
    Apple's statement on T4: "Over a decade ago, Apple partnered with Intel to design and develop Thunderbolt, and today our customers enjoy the speed and flexibility it brings to every Mac. We remain committed to the future of Thunderbolt and will support it in Macs with Apple silicon."
    williamlondon
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