ProtonMail CEO says Apple strong-armed adoption of in-app purchases

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 71
    mcdavemcdave Posts: 1,927member
    He likens App Store approvals to a trial - as if he knows he’s done something wrong.
    So they got away with violating App Store guidelines and call Apple the Mafia when they catch them.
    How can you trust the integrity of a product when the developer clearly has none.
    montrosemacswatto_cobra
  • Reply 22 of 71
    sflocal said:
    Yup, this is the Apple I know as a developer. They are like the mafia. Time they get in serious trouble with the EU and get forced to clean house.
    You're that rude guest that enters someone else's house, and then whine about how the owner runs it.

    I you want the wild-west and anything-goes mentality, then stick to developing on Android.  The reason iOS is so popular and profitable is for those exact reasons you hate it.

    As a developer myself, I remember the days of boxed software and self-marketing and particularly all the overhead.  
    Ummm ... Android is even more popular and even more profitable. Android market share: 85%. Android app revenue when ALL app stores are added in including the #1 app market in the world - China - that Google Play is not present: more than the App Store and has been for years. Of course, I am not saying that Apple should adopt Google's model and I am particularly not saying that the government should force them to. But it is past time for people like you to finally admit that both the Android and the iOS models are extremely successful. Google rode Android from being a tiny company that was legitimately threatened with being run out of business by the combination of Yahoo and Microsoft to a $1 trillion valuation. Had it not been for Android, Google would be a unit of Microsoft, Yahoo, Oracle or even Tencent by now. Seriously, check Google's market cap in 2011, before Android really took off thanks to the Samsung Galaxy S2 and Galaxy Note, and now. 

    And as a former developer myself, I remember when the vast majority of software sales were via direct download over the Internet to Windows PCs. Only a tiny percentage of software sales came from CDs and DVDs. And if you were on Linux, you downloaded your software over the Internet exclusively because there was no consumer commercial Linux software market. Let me state this: app stores already existed before the iPhone. And downloading software over the Internet had already long outstripped buying CDs from retail stores as the primary method of software distribution. Haven't you ever heard of download.com? Formerly cnet.com/download? Been around since 1996. Were so big at one point that they actually had a Super Bowl commercial!

    These arguments that Apple is pushing are designed to trick two classes of people. 
    1. Non-technical people such as the people with degrees in law, political science and economics/business that make up Congress, the judiciary and trade boards. (Note: one of the few judges to side with Google in the Oracle lawsuit over APIs was the one who writes code in his spare time and actually used said APIs.)
    2. People under 30 who have basically grown up with iPhones and can't conceive of a world without them. 
    OferWarrenBuffduckhmuthuk_vanalingamwilliamlondon
  • Reply 23 of 71
    hexclockhexclock Posts: 1,266member
    Why don't all these software wizards write their own OS and put it on their own devices? Then they can sell software any way they choose. Or maybe they should just pay the damn 30% and earn a decent living off the billion or so users out there.

    edited October 2020 watto_cobra
  • Reply 24 of 71
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    Ugh you people. Utterly unable to see that you're being shafted by one of the richest corporations on the planet.
    Oferednlwilliamlondon
  • Reply 25 of 71
    BeatsBeats Posts: 3,073member
    cloudguy said:
    sflocal said:
    Yup, this is the Apple I know as a developer. They are like the mafia. Time they get in serious trouble with the EU and get forced to clean house.
    You're that rude guest that enters someone else's house, and then whine about how the owner runs it.

    I you want the wild-west and anything-goes mentality, then stick to developing on Android.  The reason iOS is so popular and profitable is for those exact reasons you hate it.

    As a developer myself, I remember the days of boxed software and self-marketing and particularly all the overhead.  
    Ummm ... Android is even more popular and even more profitable. Android market share: 85%. Android app revenue when ALL app stores are added in including the #1 app market in the world - China - that Google Play is not present: more than the App Store and has been for years. Of course, I am not saying that Apple should adopt Google's model and I am particularly not saying that the government should force them to. But it is past time for people like you to finally admit that both the Android and the iOS models are extremely successful. Google rode Android from being a tiny company that was legitimately threatened with being run out of business by the combination of Yahoo and Microsoft to a $1 trillion valuation. Had it not been for Android, Google would be a unit of Microsoft, Yahoo, Oracle or even Tencent by now. Seriously, check Google's market cap in 2011, before Android really took off thanks to the Samsung Galaxy S2 and Galaxy Note, and now. 

    And as a former developer myself, I remember when the vast majority of software sales were via direct download over the Internet to Windows PCs. Only a tiny percentage of software sales came from CDs and DVDs. And if you were on Linux, you downloaded your software over the Internet exclusively because there was no consumer commercial Linux software market. Let me state this: app stores already existed before the iPhone. And downloading software over the Internet had already long outstripped buying CDs from retail stores as the primary method of software distribution. Haven't you ever heard of download.com? Formerly cnet.com/download? Been around since 1996. Were so big at one point that they actually had a Super Bowl commercial!

    These arguments that Apple is pushing are designed to trick two classes of people. 
    1. Non-technical people such as the people with degrees in law, political science and economics/business that make up Congress, the judiciary and trade boards. (Note: one of the few judges to side with Google in the Oracle lawsuit over APIs was the one who writes code in his spare time and actually used said APIs.)
    2. People under 30 who have basically grown up with iPhones and can't conceive of a world without them. 

    I love how you can move the goalposts all over the place to defend knockoff Apple devices.
    edited October 2020 magman1979williamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 26 of 71
    I knew this is going on for years, but new developers are stilled shocked by this policy.

    As a developer, I don't have a problem with Apple taking 30%, or even not allowing a link to external payment web page.  But not able to mention ANYTHING ANYWHERE in-app is just ridiculous.  

    It just creates unnecessary hassle for the developers and the users. We were forced send out emails to our users about a premium tier of services.
    Ofergatorguymuthuk_vanalingamednl
  • Reply 27 of 71
    BeatsBeats Posts: 3,073member
    crowley said:
    Beats said:
    crowley said:
    I don't know how anyone defends this behaviour from Apple as to the benefit of anyone but Apple.  And if that's the case then they're just like any other shitty big company.  I thought Apple aspired to be better than that.  The "best products" and all that.

    I've been a subscriber to ProtonMail since before they had an app.  I like my Mac and my iPhone, but screw Apple and their rent seeking; if there's an option to pay outside of IAP then I'll be taking it at this point.  I was thinking about subscribing to Apple One, but to hell with that.

    Apple is better than that. Go buy knockoff devices and be happy that way.
    Not even attempting to address the issue.  You might be happy with suffering a susbstandard user experience for the sake of filling Apple's coffers, but I'm not.

    Well you could also support the struggling startup Google who stands on moral high ground!

    LOL
    magman1979Dogpersonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 28 of 71
    stolstol Posts: 12member
    Wow people. Your list of arguments goes like:

    - Go buy an Android
    - Write your own OS
    - I want this kind of store
    - Apple knows better

    I'm all in for Apple, but this is nothing like Spotify/Epic. Not allowing a developer, who respects all rules, to continue having an app unless they have in-app purchases is pretty bad attitude - especially when such apps have free tiers.

    I just saw today an app which had 1 star reviews because people couldn't find how to register an account. Apple forbids it.
    iOS in-app purchases are more expensive than purchasing same product in browser.
    This situation is not user-friendly at all...
    OferWarrenBuffduckhgatorguymuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 29 of 71
    looplessloopless Posts: 332member
    Apple has pretty clear rules. You can’t have an app in the App Store that provides a service, then be selling a premium version of that service via an external web site. You have to do in a via an in app purchase. It’s pretty freaking clear. If these clowns can get away with it then every developer could do the same.
    magman1979watto_cobra
  • Reply 30 of 71
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 6,957member
    I knew this is going on for years, but new developers are stilled shocked by this policy.

    As a developer, I don't have a problem with Apple taking 30%, or even not allowing a link to external payment web page.  But not able to mention ANYTHING ANYWHERE in-app is just ridiculous.  

    It just creates unnecessary hassle for the developers and the users. We were forced send out emails to our users about a premium tier of services.
    You don’t have a problem with the 30% cut. 
    You want Apple to help you avoid it. 
    Sounds to me like you have a problem with the 30% cut. 
    magman1979williamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 31 of 71
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 6,957member
    stol said:
    Wow people. Your list of arguments goes like:

    - Go buy an Android
    - Write your own OS
    - I want this kind of store
    - Apple knows better

    I'm all in for Apple, but this is nothing like Spotify/Epic. Not allowing a developer, who respects all rules, to continue having an app unless they have in-app purchases is pretty bad attitude - especially when such apps have free tiers.

    I just saw today an app which had 1 star reviews because people couldn't find how to register an account. Apple forbids it.
    iOS in-app purchases are more expensive than purchasing same product in browser.
    This situation is not user-friendly at all...
    He was getting one star reviews because he is trying to avoid paying 30%. 


    magman1979Dogpersonwilliamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 32 of 71
    amar99amar99 Posts: 181member
    I just wrote a response on the AI website, but then got some error saying the discussions been closed.
    Edit: Posts seem to work here, so I've attempted to re-write my original post.
    edited October 2020
  • Reply 33 of 71
    cloudguy said:
    I'm not claiming to speak for the millions of iOS device owners, but I personally buy Apple devices for the sand-boxed and curated App Store. I don't want any alternate app stores.

    If you want alternate, and willy nilly then go buy an Android device, and sell your wares on those platforms. Leave our walled infrastructure alone. If you don't like it, then leave...
    I understand ... but that is not what this article is about at all. This has nothing to do with Epic Games wanting alternate app stores or others wanting the ability to side load. Proton has no problem with being required to be in the App Store. Their problem is Apple's governance of said store. So what you are doing here is responding to someone who says:



    Did you even read the article?

    "The group advocates for a set of "App Store Principles" that it believes companies like Apple should adopt, including allowing for rival app stores..."

    A correct analogy would be ProtonMail wanting other stores to set up shop inside of, lets say a Target store, and then pay no rent, and sell whatever it wants to sell with Target having no say or control about the matter. If the parasitic store wants to sell racist confederate flags, then Target wouldn't be able to do anything about it. It's totally ridiculous and makes absolutely no sense.

    Like I said before, if you don't like Apple's curation or rules then you are free to leave and sell elsewhere. No one is twisting your arms (like the mafia - what a stupid analogy) to stay and suffer.

    magman1979Dogpersonwilliamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 34 of 71
    amar99amar99 Posts: 181member
    At the end of the day, price will affect demand, whether a purchase is made as an in-app purchase, or on a website. In one real case, I'd wanted to subscribe to an app / service, but found their in-app purchase price to be too high so I didn't subscribe. Later, I discovered that they offered a lower price through their website, so I did subscribe.

    For cases like ProtonMail, Apple is hosting an app for 100 dollars a year (the developer account fee), and providing the infrastructure for millions of people to download it. Without an in-app purchase option of some kind, Apple gains nothing from the App's own success on the store. I guess in order to agree with this way of thinking, one has to accept that everything which goes into an app existing on an app store costs money, and at some point if you're earning money from your app, Apple deserves some cut of your earnings -- an "Apple Tax" so to speak (of course, opinions differ on this point).

    Then there are cases like Amazon, which further complicate the situation. I can purchase anything I want on Amazon from within Safari (or possibly from within their app, which I don't use), and Apple doesn't get a cut.

    None of Apple's behavior is consistent at the end of the day, which I feel is the biggest problem. This sort of thing will probably need to be decided in court, and the resulting decisions should apply to more than just Apple.


    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 35 of 71
    The ProtonMail CEO is the typical crybaby narcissist who wants everything their way - have their cake and eat it too. He mentions none of the benefits of being in the iOS App Store, and getting who knows how many thousands of potential customers who may eventually subscribe for their paid tier of services, but only complains about having to actually pay rent after free-loading for two years. It's like the horrible roommate in college that we've all had that eats your food and doesn't pay any rent.

    These ProtonMail, Spotify, Epic apologists are probably also the type of people that go into a retail store, wasting a salesperson's time by asking a million questions, and then going online and buying the product on Amazon. Apple allows outside subscriptions, but it's just asking for their to be an in-app option as well to be fair. The free-loading roommates of the world just don't get it.

    BTW, there's a great alternative to ProtonMail... Tutanota. The privacy laws in Germany are even more strict and stronger than those in Switzerland.
    edited October 2020 Rayz2016magman1979watto_cobra
  • Reply 36 of 71
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 6,957member
    The problem here is that ProtonMail is one of those apps that just doesn't work for the app store. Their standard pricing is eye-watering, which is why they only mention them when you hit the signup page, and they also need the ability to negotiate prices by contacting the customer directly.

    The app store is geared around everyone paying the same price for a particular app. It makes it much easier for customers to compare prices and less likely that they'll be ripped off having spoken to a slick salesman.

    So here, again, is my solution.

    Apple introduces the 'freeloader' tier: it's basically a service that just supports downloads of reviewed apps. 

    Apple reviews the app (for free)
    The vendor then buys a block of downloads from Apple. Apple could sell them in blocks of 1000. Why? Because contrary to popular belief, it actually costs Apple when someone downloads apps from the store because the store is hosted by a third party.
    Once the blocks have been paid for, Apple supplies an URL that the vendor can put on their website. A user going to the website clicks on the url, and the iPhone/iPad will download the app from the freeloader app store.

    Apple doesn't supply any help with marketing (did you know that Apple paid thousands for a billboard advertising a Fortnite competition). The app is not featured in any of the app store stories (good copywriters also cost money). The app will not even show up in any app store search. The vendor handles all the marketing, and Apple supplies the downloads at cost. They even throw in the review for free since they're the ones actually demanding the review.

    magman1979watto_cobra
  • Reply 37 of 71
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 6,957member

    cloudguy said:
    sflocal said:
    Yup, this is the Apple I know as a developer. They are like the mafia. Time they get in serious trouble with the EU and get forced to clean house.
    You're that rude guest that enters someone else's house, and then whine about how the owner runs it.

    I you want the wild-west and anything-goes mentality, then stick to developing on Android.  The reason iOS is so popular and profitable is for those exact reasons you hate it.

    As a developer myself, I remember the days of boxed software and self-marketing and particularly all the overhead.  
    Ummm ... Android is even more popular and even more profitable. Android market share: 85%. Android app revenue when ALL app stores are added in including the #1 app market in the world - China - that Google Play is not present: more than the App Store and has been for years. Of course, I am not saying that Apple should adopt Google's model and I am particularly not saying that the government should force them to. But it is past time for people like you to finally admit that both the Android and the iOS models are extremely successful. Google rode Android from being a tiny company that was legitimately threatened with being run out of business by the combination of Yahoo and Microsoft to a $1 trillion valuation. Had it not been for Android, Google would be a unit of Microsoft, Yahoo, Oracle or even Tencent by now. Seriously, check Google's market cap in 2011, before Android really took off thanks to the Samsung Galaxy S2 and Galaxy Note, and now. 

    And as a former developer myself, I remember when the vast majority of software sales were via direct download over the Internet to Windows PCs. Only a tiny percentage of software sales came from CDs and DVDs. And if you were on Linux, you downloaded your software over the Internet exclusively because there was no consumer commercial Linux software market. Let me state this: app stores already existed before the iPhone. And downloading software over the Internet had already long outstripped buying CDs from retail stores as the primary method of software distribution. Haven't you ever heard of download.com? Formerly cnet.com/download? Been around since 1996. Were so big at one point that they actually had a Super Bowl commercial!

    These arguments that Apple is pushing are designed to trick two classes of people. 
    1. Non-technical people such as the people with degrees in law, political science and economics/business that make up Congress, the judiciary and trade boards. (Note: one of the few judges to side with Google in the Oracle lawsuit over APIs was the one who writes code in his spare time and actually used said APIs.)
    2. People under 30 who have basically grown up with iPhones and can't conceive of a world without them. 
    Couple of points:

    Ummm ... Android is even more popular and even more profitable. Android market share: 85%. Android app revenue when ALL app stores are added in including the #1 app market in the world - China 

    You're going to have to back up some of this with numbers.

    Android s market share of 85% is mostly made up of cheap, low-tier phones, and therein lies the problem: the people buying the phones are not the people who're going to spend a lot of money on apps, on any app store.

    If what you're saying is true then we wouldn't even be having this conversation: the likes of ProtonMail would simply say, "Screw you Apple! We're going to launch our app on every Android store and make all our money there!"

    Instead they whine, try to avoid paying their way, but won't actually leave. I wonder why that is?


    And as a former developer myself, I remember when the vast majority of software sales were via direct download over the Internet to Windows PCs. Only a tiny percentage of software sales came from CDs and DVDs. And if you were on Linux, you downloaded your software over the Internet exclusively because there was no consumer commercial Linux software market. Let me state this: app stores already existed before the iPhone. And downloading software over the Internet had already long outstripped buying CDs from retail stores as the primary method of software distribution. Haven't you ever heard of download.com? Formerly cnet.com/download? Been around since 1996Were so big at one point that they actually had a Super Bowl commercial!
    Been a developer since '88. 

    No one said that Apple invented the app store. There were app stores serving Windows Mobile and the Palm market, and guess what? They were taking up to 70% of the cover price on the download. Yes, 70%. (We used to write for the Palm Pilot).

    When Apple announced that they were only taking 30%, I thought it was a mistake in the copy. I thought they meant that the vendor would be keeping 30%
    edited October 2020 tmayGG1magman1979williamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 38 of 71
    slurpyslurpy Posts: 5,384member
    crowley said:
    genovelle said:
    These selfish idiots will force Apple to change focus and it will effect the quality we get as product owners. 
    Changing the focus away from services revenue and towards better user experiences sounds good to me.

    What the fuck? You do know that the revenue from the appstore gets reinvested into the business and product development, right? Apple's stuff has only gotten better, MUCH better, the last few years. Not sure what planet you're on. 

    And why don't you name me some "better user experiences" than iOS? For a shitload of people, that is the pinnacle of user experience. Would love to have a list so we can understand what your comparison is. 
    magman1979Dogpersonwilliamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 39 of 71
    slurpyslurpy Posts: 5,384member
    crowley said:
    Beats said:
    crowley said:
    I don't know how anyone defends this behaviour from Apple as to the benefit of anyone but Apple.  And if that's the case then they're just like any other shitty big company.  I thought Apple aspired to be better than that.  The "best products" and all that.

    I've been a subscriber to ProtonMail since before they had an app.  I like my Mac and my iPhone, but screw Apple and their rent seeking; if there's an option to pay outside of IAP then I'll be taking it at this point.  I was thinking about subscribing to Apple One, but to hell with that.

    Apple is better than that. Go buy knockoff devices and be happy that way.
    Not even attempting to address the issue.  You might be happy with suffering a susbstandard user experience for the sake of filling Apple's coffers, but I'm not.
    "substandard user experience"? Again, whats your standard? What a pathetic and hilarious statement. 
    magman1979williamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 40 of 71
    CEO of what, LOL? Another junk mail client? 
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