How Apple Silicon Macs can supercharge computing in the 2020s

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  • Reply 41 of 122

    In over 20 years and Thousands of both Mac & Windows Users I have serviced, I have yet to meet ONE person who wants or needs to run Windows on a Mac. It's two separate Worlds plain and simple. Anyone who thinks otherwise is FUBAR.
    Perhaps you need to get out more?

    Up until I changed jobs in January, I literally ran Windows in a VM every day. Now I don’t have the need for Windows very often, but I do run Linux-based applications inside Docker containers every single day.

    A large percentage of developers do the same on their Macs, so you can’t discount the need to virtualization technologies.
    williamlondonelijahgGeorgeBMacwatto_cobra
  • Reply 42 of 122
    Dan_DilgerDan_Dilger Posts: 1,583member

    cloudguy said:
    First off, never forget that this is from the same guy that as late as 2015 was claiming that no profits were being made on Android

    This is simply false. 

    and that Google, Samsung and the rest were going to abandon it. He never took responsibility for those false claims.

    Samsung did abandon Android everywhere it could. Look up what OS runs its TVs and watches and attempted to run its phones. Same with LG. And now Huawei is desperately trying to replace Android and claims that was its plan all along. Nobody with any autonomy would use Android, apart from the dodos at Microsoft floating out a demo phone prototype using Android because Windows is shit on mobile. Wake me up when that takes off. 

    Even Google shifted to using Chrome everywhere possible. How is Android doing these days? Google didn't even bother to have an online IO for it this year. 

    Every time some bozo (and I think it's all just you, creating new accounts to troll my articles) tries to suggest I was wrong about Android, I have to laugh at how dumb you sound. I was literally the only person who called out Android as a liability and a failure.  

    Second, please realize that right now Apple has 8% market share in PCs. ChromeOS - which already includes ARM devices like the Lenovo IdeaPad Duet, the #1 selling ChromeOS device this year - has 11%. Were it not for mass shortages of Chromebooks caused by COVID-19 induced supply chain disruptions, ChromeOS would have 13-14% market share.

    Percentages of "market share" are meaningless when "8%" represents $9 billion quarter for Macs while 11% equals a loss leader for Lenovo. On a quarterly basis, Lenovos entire PC business profits (Win+Chrome) earns ~$600M. Market share is a really dumb delusion when you're counting $2000 Macs and $200 netbooks. Chromebooks are not at all popular outside of cash-starved US schools trying to hand out disposable web books as cheaply as possible. 

    Third, this fellow writing off the success that is Android is hilarious. It has 75% - 85% market share. And the only reason why Google Play has less revenue than the app store is because Google chooses not to operate in China. In other words, the gap between Google Play and iOS is much closer than the gap between macOS and Windows. Yet he wants us to believe that Android is somehow a failure? That Samsung and the rest would be better off by not manufacturing Android apps? Or that all these developers and software companies have not gained tons of revenue off Android apps? 

    Yes, "Google chooses not to operate in China." What a dumb thing to say. Google stole American tech and gifted it to the PRC to sell ads. Yes it ended up collecting some money from it. But no, it is not some great success story. The most useful thing Android did was to stifle competition from Microsoft and everyone else, funneling all profits and control of mobile devices to Apple. That's why Google now has to pay Apple $10B per quarter to buy ad eyeballs on iOS. 

    Fourth, [irrelevant squawking about PC games]

    So long story short, don't believe anything this guy says. Just do an Internet search on his rants about how Android was NEVER going to catch iOS in market share and Google - who now has a $1 trillion and counting capitalization - was on the verge of going belly up. That will let you know how you shouldn't rely on this fellow for predictions.

    Post links where I claimed "Android was NEVER going to catch iOS in market share" and Ill wire you $10,000. Add some reference to where I ever claimed that Google "was on the verge of going belly up" and I'll double it. Stop lying and writing garbage. It makes you look like a total jerk. 

    patchythepirateRayz2016tobianseanjradarthekatrundhvidchiawilliamlondonroundaboutnowbestkeptsecret
  • Reply 43 of 122
    Dan_DilgerDan_Dilger Posts: 1,583member

    cloudguy said:
    Good grief. The Intel Core i3 chips that Apple puts in the entry level MacBook Air costs less to buy from Intel than it will cost TSMC to make the A14 chip. And the chip cost is only a fraction of the cost of the device. For example, the Qualcomm charged Google only $50 for the Snapdragon 765G that is in the $700 Pixel 5. I know that there are rumors that Apple will sell the ARM laptops starting at $799, but only because they want to sell more of them. The tradeoff is that Apple will have lower margins in return for that increased market share. That will make ARM-based Macs the equivalent of the iPhone SE 2020, for example. 
    This is completely false. Every word is dripping with ignorance.
    patchythepirateRayz2016tenthousandthingswilliamlondonwatto_cobratmaymacplusplus
  • Reply 44 of 122
    mobirdmobird Posts: 661member
    tiger2 said:
    I just want to know if if my printer will work with an Apple silicon chip from day one.

    No one has mentioned whether Safari will be Snappier?...


    edited November 2020
  • Reply 45 of 122
    elijahgelijahg Posts: 2,502member

    dinoone said:
    ARM recent vulnerabilities (incl. Checkm8, Spectre and Meltdown) surfacing in past Apple silicon efforts, including the currently pervasive T2, are concerning indeed. 
    Hope Apple is finally reacting to such Achilles’ heel in its Apple Silicon strategy. Which, if appropriately handled, could turn into a strategic advantage on competing mainstream silicon.
    Checkm8 could affect T2 Macs with an intel processor, but Spectre and Meltdown are vulnerabilities that relate to branch processing, which isn't something a T2 would be doing and says nothing about Apple's silicon itself. These vulnerabilities affected all modern CPUs, and Apple was best positioned to protect users with OS-level fixes. 

    None of this is "concerning indeed."
    Not sure how your rather incoherent answer to @dinoone reduces concern whatsoever. dinoone is referring to vulnerabilities in ARM chips, the T2 being an example of a chip with vulnerabilities. The A series chips are vulnerable to both Spectre and Meltdown, which actually does say enough about Apple's silicon to know it's not impenetrable - which you admit in your next sentence by saying "these vulnerabilities affected all modern CPUs." Also T2 no doubt does plenty of branch processing - which is essentially an if( ) statement, but whilst running only Apple's code there is no way to exploit it. 
    dinoone
  • Reply 46 of 122
    Dan_DilgerDan_Dilger Posts: 1,583member

    avon b7 said:
    "Huawei has similarly claimed that it is close to introducing its own internal OS platform out of necessity after the U.S. blocked it from using Google's Android. But this has been merely disruptive to Huawei's sales, because existing Android buyers don't want a non-standard, non-compatible Android alternative."

    HongMeng/HarmonyOS has been in development for years (long before any U.S intervention). It is already shipping in a version 1.0 form on TVs and routers. Some of its components are already shipping in Huawei's Android phones and its watches too. The OS currently has more APIs than Android, 1,000+ modules and the TEE has received the highest level industry security certifications. It is also being aimed at industry and will make extensive use of 5G technologies and AI.

    That is in a different universe to Tizen and WebOS. 

    No it's actually in the "same universe," the same boat even. It doesn't take a sophisticated app platform to run a TV or router. Huawei also blatantly lied about the status of its Android replacement. If it could actually ship on a phone for Android buyers, it would have a long time ago rather than shipping out refreshed old Android phones to skirt the ban.   

    Side note: the word "Universe" inherently means that there is only one. That's why it has the "uni" in it. 


    The U.S geopolitical situation simply sped the whole development process up and made Huawei show its hand a little earlier than planned.

    No.

    So now we know it is also already shipping to many car manufacturers and IoT partners and offers a higher level of integration than either Android Auto or Car Play. The cars will have a HiCar 5G Module built into them. It was deployed to manufacturers last year. The OS will reportedly ship on phones next year. It is also already running on custom SoCs (one of which Huawei has even made available to the open market for IoT devices). It will integrate Huawei HiLink connectivity (a protocol that has existed for years for Huawei and partner devices) for integration of devices.

    None of that has anything to do with Huawei being able to ship a smartphone platform. And nobody should be integrating any Huawei/PRC technology into anything unless they are part of China's goal to spy on and steal western technology and expand the influence of the communist party globally.  

    A 'non-compatible Android alternative'?  It is a new system. The whole point is to be an alternative to Android. Compatibility didn't come into its design and it is far, far too early to start affirming what users want. Especially as the world's largest handset market can easily shift its focus to a non-Android world (seeing as GMS is basically irrelevant there).

    The OS foundation will also be open sourced and Huawei is a manufacturer itself and already has thousands of HiLink partner devices on the Chinese market.

    Thanks to HarmonyOS/HMS many of those devices will become available outside China with regionally localised apps. On top of that, Huawei is signing up western partners to deploy HarmonyOS compatible devices. Just this week they signed a deal with Spanish appliance manufacturer Cecotec and it is rumoured that Siemens/Bosch/Audi/BMW etc are also on board. Of course, in addition to industry giants like Haier.

    The only 'current' issue is (once again) geopolitical and concerns chipset fabrication but that is merely an obstacle not an permanent impediment. Huawei has apparently set itself a goal of two years to eliminate dependency on U.S technology, something which will tie in nicely with HarmonyOS 4.

    I know you love your company but it really is just an arm of the communist party and nobody with two brain cells should be integrating any PRC tech into their products. 

    It is also worth remembering that Huawei also has ARM based solutions for HPC/AI /Servers and more recently, Desktops. 

    As for PowerPC, it should also be noted that Apple's PowerPC issues were related to its niche of desktop/laptop computing. Away from that niche, PowerPC was a force to be reckoned with in low power embedded industries (such as within the automobile industry). And of course 'PowerPC' actually lives on under a different guise and enjoys a very good reputation due to its maturity as a platform and the tools available for it. 

    This article was about Apple and its desktop computing platform. 

    patchythepiraterundhvidwilliamlondonroundaboutnowwatto_cobratmay
  • Reply 47 of 122
    elijahgelijahg Posts: 2,502member


    lmasanti said:
    One point in the PowerPC to x86 transition that you forgot to mention is that the NeXT OS was already running in x86 hardware.
    The Motorola to PowerPC was a ‘new writing.’
    This is the same situation in x86 to ARM on Macs: the OS is already written-at-large in iOS.
    This makes this transition more similar to the 2005 transition that to the 1990.
    NeXT ported to x86 in 1995 but Apple didn't actually use any of that x86 port until 2006 (it did ship early DR releases shortly after buying NeXT). So that wasn't very relevant to the development of OS X that initially shipped for PPC. NeXT also ported its OS to PPC, which did end up being useful for Apple in shipping OS X. None of that was very relevant to the point of this article, which is detailing the strategic reasons Apple made various processor transitions and the outcomes.  

    Also, the port of Classic Mac OS from Motorola to PPC largely continued to use emulated, not new, code. From 94 thru the early 2000s, Macs dragged a lot of 68k code along that wasn't entirely let go until the OS X transition to x86! 

    Whilst they didn't publicly "use" that x86 port, it was maintained internally and all code was written to be CPU-agnostic. There were mysterious commits in the source repos which pointed toward maintenance of that x86 port, and mentions of CPU endianness in header files - only relevant when using different architectures.

    No doubt Apple has been maintaining that CPU agnosticism since x86 Mac OS to ease any transition, and no doubt they will continue to maintain an x86 version of macOS. Jobs famously showed a photo of the building they were maintaining the x86 port of Mac OS X in.

    I remember reading somewhere that either 8.6 or 9 removed the last vestiges of 68k code, and as such the New World ROM Macs (iMac+) no longer needed the emulator at boot time in the Macintosh Toolbox ROM chip, so it was a file on-disk instead. There was no 68k code in Mac OS X at all though - apart from through the classic environment. That was entirely PPC though, and it ran the New World ROM 68k emulator in the virtualised environment. CarbonLib which allowed programs to run on Mac OS 8.5/6/9/X was PPC only. 
    edited November 2020 Dan_Dilgertobiantmay
  • Reply 48 of 122
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 5,958member

    avon b7 said:
    "Huawei has similarly claimed that it is close to introducing its own internal OS platform out of necessity after the U.S. blocked it from using Google's Android. But this has been merely disruptive to Huawei's sales, because existing Android buyers don't want a non-standard, non-compatible Android alternative."

    HongMeng/HarmonyOS has been in development for years (long before any U.S intervention). It is already shipping in a version 1.0 form on TVs and routers. Some of its components are already shipping in Huawei's Android phones and its watches too. The OS currently has more APIs than Android, 1,000+ modules and the TEE has received the highest level industry security certifications. It is also being aimed at industry and will make extensive use of 5G technologies and AI.

    That is in a different universe to Tizen and WebOS. 

    No it's actually in the "same universe," the same boat even. It doesn't take a sophisticated app platform to run a TV or router. Huawei also blatantly lied about the status of its Android replacement. If it could actually ship on a phone for Android buyers, it would have a long time ago rather than shipping out refreshed old Android phones to skirt the ban.   

    Side note: the word "Universe" inherently means that there is only one. That's why it has the "uni" in it. 


    The U.S geopolitical situation simply sped the whole development process up and made Huawei show its hand a little earlier than planned.

    No.

    So now we know it is also already shipping to many car manufacturers and IoT partners and offers a higher level of integration than either Android Auto or Car Play. The cars will have a HiCar 5G Module built into them. It was deployed to manufacturers last year. The OS will reportedly ship on phones next year. It is also already running on custom SoCs (one of which Huawei has even made available to the open market for IoT devices). It will integrate Huawei HiLink connectivity (a protocol that has existed for years for Huawei and partner devices) for integration of devices.

    None of that has anything to do with Huawei being able to ship a smartphone platform. And nobody should be integrating any Huawei/PRC technology into anything unless they are part of China's goal to spy on and steal western technology and expand the influence of the communist party globally.  

    A 'non-compatible Android alternative'?  It is a new system. The whole point is to be an alternative to Android. Compatibility didn't come into its design and it is far, far too early to start affirming what users want. Especially as the world's largest handset market can easily shift its focus to a non-Android world (seeing as GMS is basically irrelevant there).

    The OS foundation will also be open sourced and Huawei is a manufacturer itself and already has thousands of HiLink partner devices on the Chinese market.

    Thanks to HarmonyOS/HMS many of those devices will become available outside China with regionally localised apps. On top of that, Huawei is signing up western partners to deploy HarmonyOS compatible devices. Just this week they signed a deal with Spanish appliance manufacturer Cecotec and it is rumoured that Siemens/Bosch/Audi/BMW etc are also on board. Of course, in addition to industry giants like Haier.

    The only 'current' issue is (once again) geopolitical and concerns chipset fabrication but that is merely an obstacle not an permanent impediment. Huawei has apparently set itself a goal of two years to eliminate dependency on U.S technology, something which will tie in nicely with HarmonyOS 4.

    I know you love your company but it really is just an arm of the communist party and nobody with two brain cells should be integrating any PRC tech into their products. 

    It is also worth remembering that Huawei also has ARM based solutions for HPC/AI /Servers and more recently, Desktops. 

    As for PowerPC, it should also be noted that Apple's PowerPC issues were related to its niche of desktop/laptop computing. Away from that niche, PowerPC was a force to be reckoned with in low power embedded industries (such as within the automobile industry). And of course 'PowerPC' actually lives on under a different guise and enjoys a very good reputation due to its maturity as a platform and the tools available for it. 

    This article was about Apple and its desktop computing platform. 

    I suggest you read up before replying. 

    "No it's actually in the "same universe," the same boat even. It doesn't take a sophisticated app platform to run a TV or router. Huawei also blatantly lied about the status of its Android replacement. If it could actually ship on a phone for Android buyers, it would have a long time ago rather than shipping out refreshed old Android phones to skirt the ban."

    HarmonyOS is real. It shipped last year. Your claim was incorrect. 

    The platform is actually extremely sophisticated (hence over 13,000 APIs and 1,000+ software modules and the planned ability to scale over an all scenario setting). 

    It is wholly ironic that you bring up routers and TVs as this was given as an example of how HarmonyOS could work just a few weeks ago! This isn't pie in the sky! The head of Huawei's software operations gave the following example on stage. 

    It was of a home router coming under attack, detecting the attack and using the resources of the TV (its NPU specifically) to bolster its resources and thwart the attack. All in real time and using AI. And over an ultrafast wireless connection. 

    As HarmonyOS can use a distributed virtual bus and pull hardware features off of the devices it has to hand, the control and protection of user privacy is an utmost concern. It takes a very high degree of sophistication to even tackle the complexities involved (which were laid out at the same presentation). It uses a distributed virtual, bus, distributed file system and distributed security. All with low latency and converged networking (Bluetooth and WiFi basically become one over a mesh network). So, if a high level of authentication is required, the system can pull data from various devices (for example using 3D face unlocking combined with heart data pulled off of your watch).

    The same will apply in the car setting. It won't be a point to point connection (like Car Play or Android Auto) and will go beyond infotainment uses. 

    It looks like Huawei is also planning its own technology to increase read/write speeds to storage. 

    https://www.notebookcheck.net/A-Huawei-Mate-40-RS-teardown-reveals-an-ultra-fast-in-house-memory-chip.501799.0.html

    What Huawei says about its plans is irrevelant but in this case I can understand why it would be reluctant to lay out its plans on a platter. 

    Huawei and Google actually want to work together. Google has been pleading for a licence from the very start. That won't change Huawei's long term plans though, which have simply been accelerated even if they aren't fully developed. 

    Are you saying you really didn't get the universe comment? And were unable to see artistic licence in action? 

    Yes! Different universes and of course different boats! 

    Tizen and WebOS are completely different beasts when compared to what is planned for HarmonyOS. 



    edited November 2020 elijahg
  • Reply 49 of 122
    dewmedewme Posts: 3,946member
    blastdoor said:
    The title is about the future, the content about the past.

    Here’s a thought about the future — I wonder if “desktop AI/ML” will define the Mac of the 2020s the way desktop publishing did in the 80s. 

    Combine user friendly tools for training models with your data with uniquely powerful hardware. Train on Mac, deploy on iPhone 
    I think Daniel has actually done a very good job of showing the path and progression from where Apple was, to where Apple is, and finally to where Apple belongs. This change is dictated by the vision of what Apple wants to be as a company for the foreseeable future. On the technology front this includes AI, ML, AR, ambient computing, mobile-desktop convergence, ... and so many other things that are very strategic and forward thinking in nature.

    Apple in 2020 is about a whole lot more than the Macintosh, or even the iPhone. Apple isn't a commodity computer maker slapping together generic computers using commercial-off-the-shelf components. They are doing so many things that require custom, one of a kind, and one-off components across a broad range of form factors. To do this affordably and effectively Apple has to find synergies and opportunities to leverage its own intellectual property and innovations wherever it can. Apple also needs to have total control over its own velocity.

    Intel isn't optimized to serve the broader markets and products that Apple is targeting. It's not a knock on Intel, it's simply a matter of fit. Apple could stay tied to Intel on the Mac, but doing so would not allow Apple to fully exploit the many things that Apple can do when it isn't bound to the constraints that make Intel so attractive to Apple's competitors who also buy Intel commodity chips. Apple can't afford to keep building "sidekick" chips like the T2 to work around limitations that are a consequence of using Intel's commodity chips. 


    Dan_Dilgerseanjchiaprairiewalkerwatto_cobratmay
  • Reply 50 of 122
    avon b7 said:

    HarmonyOS is real. It shipped last year. Your claim was incorrect. 

    A 14 year old boy can "ship" a Linux distro. What Huawei claimed was that it had a replacement to Android that was better than Android; and that it would prefer to use it, but couldn't for some reason; and that at any moment it could flip a switch and send out phones with its own secretly finished OS on it and they would sell. These were all blatant lies. In a few minutes I could compile a full article full of outrageous lies Huawei has prattled off and the tech media and lapped up off the floor like dogs to vomit. Nobody ever calls them on out their lies. They're a bullshit company run by frauds financed by the PRC.  

    The platform is actually extremely sophisticated (hence over 13,000 APIs and 1,000+ software modules and the planned ability to scale over an all scenario setting). 

    It is wholly ironic that you bring up routers and TVs as this was given as an example of how HarmonyOS could work just a few weeks ago! This isn't pie in the sky! The head of Huawei's software operations gave the following example on stage. 

    It was of a home router coming under attack, detecting the attack and using the resources of the TV (its NPU specifically) to bolster its resources and thwart the attack. All in real time and using AI. And over an ultrafast wireless connection. 

    What an insane thing to say. A router protected from attack by the PRC! Who do you think attacks routers? The PRC. 

    [Irrelevant chatter]


    prairiewalkerwilliamlondonwatto_cobratmay
  • Reply 51 of 122
     Apple can radically take future Macs in a new direction that will leave behind standard PCs the same way that iPad has left simpler Android tablets in the dust, or the way iPhone silicon has rapidly advanced beyond what is even available in an Android phone.”

    This article fails to consider AMD’s innovation on x86. Zen 3 is a dominant part and Zen 4 will be on 5 nanometer. Kudos to Apple to innovating, but x86 has such an entrenched install base, both in the consumer and server markets that it’s unlikely the bulk of users will move, especially given AMD’s performance. What may end up happening is, both intel and  AMD innovate , and their chips will exceed Apple’s offerings. And the question will be, was Apple wise to move on? 

    Only time will tell. 
    elijahg
  • Reply 52 of 122
    XedXed Posts: 1,106member
    cloudguy said:
    Xed said:
    k2kw said:
    blastdoor said:
    The title is about the future, the content about the past.

    Here’s a thought about the future — I wonder if “desktop AI/ML” will define the Mac of the 2020s the way desktop publishing did in the 80s. 

    Combine user friendly tools for training models with your data with uniquely powerful hardware. Train on Mac, deploy on iPhone 
    Yeah, I read through all that to only get 5nm.   But one thing is guaranteed-this is about PROFITS.   I'm sure Desktop ARM chips will be cheaper to make and will have greater profit margin.    I'm hoping Apple tries to increase its volume but won't hold my breath on this.   With the move to an arm based architecture I am expecting macOS to become more iPhone/ipad like as they share a common software base.  SuperOS for the future.

    DED is usually very good a reiterating the history of Apple's rise to dominance, but doesn't have the same track record with prognostication about the future.
    No "SuperOS," as you put it. iOS, iPadOS, macOS, watchOS, tvOS will continue to be Darwin-based and use many of the same frameworks, but will be distinct OSes. Not only is Apple not going to use a single OS for all products, but they continue to diverge their OSes.

    You didn't mention performance. I think we'll see an above average YoY performance boost but performance per watt is the bigger gain here. I think a reduction in price behooves Apple as it will allow them to sell more Macs, but they could keep the price points the same—just don't conflate that with Apple increasing their profit margins unless you can account for the cost changes of all other components and associated costs, or that increasing profits for a product category relates to increasing profit margins (price drops aren't altruistic moves by companies).
    Good grief. The Intel Core i3 chips that Apple puts in the entry level MacBook Air costs less to buy from Intel than it will cost TSMC to make the A14 chip. And the chip cost is only a fraction of the cost of the device. For example, the Qualcomm charged Google only $50 for the Snapdragon 765G that is in the $700 Pixel 5. I know that there are rumors that Apple will sell the ARM laptops starting at $799, but only because they want to sell more of them. The tradeoff is that Apple will have lower margins in return for that increased market share. That will make ARM-based Macs the equivalent of the iPhone SE 2020, for example. 
    Yikes! That's a lot of nonsense to unpack for one post but perhaps the most odd is your implication that Apple has only just thought about selling Macs for less so they could sell more of them. What a fucking concept! Optimal price points have always been and will continue to be dictated based on what they determine will yield them highest net profit fo a product category. Maybe try reading the very good article to see why Apple has decided to go with their own chips.

    PS: The i3?! That's what you want to put up against Apple Silicon. Apple's been beating that in performance in even their pocketable devices for many years and don't even get me started on performance per watt or TDP. 
    edited November 2020 Rayz2016prairiewalkerwilliamlondonroundaboutnowwatto_cobratmay
  • Reply 53 of 122
    XedXed Posts: 1,106member
    “ Apple can radically take future Macs in a new direction that will leave behind standard PCs the same way that iPad has left simpler Android tablets in the dust, or the way iPhone silicon has rapidly advanced beyond what is even available in an Android phone.”

    This article fails to consider AMD’s innovation on x86. Zen 3 is a dominant part and Zen 4 will be on 5 nanometer. Kudos to Apple to innovating, but x86 has such an entrenched install base, both in the consumer and server markets that it’s unlikely the bulk of users will move, especially given AMD’s performance. What may end up happening is, both intel and  AMD innovate , and their chips will exceed Apple’s offerings. And the question will be, was Apple wise to move on? 

    Only time will tell. 
    LOL You people and AMD. The verdict has been in for a long time. ARM is the most widely used instruction set architecture in the world and this isn't changing with subpar results from AMD that only look marginally good next to Intel.
    watto_cobratmay
  • Reply 54 of 122
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 5,958member
    avon b7 said:

    HarmonyOS is real. It shipped last year. Your claim was incorrect. 

    A 14 year old boy can "ship" a Linux distro. What Huawei claimed was that it had a replacement to Android that was better than Android; and that it would prefer to use it, but couldn't for some reason; and that at any moment it could flip a switch and send out phones with its own secretly finished OS on it and they would sell. These were all blatant lies. In a few minutes I could compile a full article full of outrageous lies Huawei has prattled off and the tech media and lapped up off the floor like dogs to vomit. Nobody ever calls them on out their lies. They're a bullshit company run by frauds financed by the PRC.  

    The platform is actually extremely sophisticated (hence over 13,000 APIs and 1,000+ software modules and the planned ability to scale over an all scenario setting). 

    It is wholly ironic that you bring up routers and TVs as this was given as an example of how HarmonyOS could work just a few weeks ago! This isn't pie in the sky! The head of Huawei's software operations gave the following example on stage. 

    It was of a home router coming under attack, detecting the attack and using the resources of the TV (its NPU specifically) to bolster its resources and thwart the attack. All in real time and using AI. And over an ultrafast wireless connection. 

    What an insane thing to say. A router protected from attack by the PRC! Who do you think attacks routers? The PRC. 

    [Irrelevant chatter]


    You haven't countered what I said. 

    You were incorrect in your claims and 'shipping a Linux distro' has nothing to do with anything. Nor does the PRC.

    A 14 year old is not going to ship 13,000 APIs and and get CC EAL 5+ certification for the kernel. Not even two 14 year olds! It takes thousands of engineers and a lot of R&D to reach where they are now with HarmonyOS (which is still baby steps at this point!) 

    https://cntechpost.com/2020/05/18/huaweis-autopilot-operating-system-gets-asil-d-certification-for-first-time/

    Who attacks routers? Just about anybody with the desire and resources to do it! That includes just about any government (obviously including the U.S and China).

    You claimed HarmonyOS wasn't sophisticated. It's clear that you haven't read up on the subject. It is extremely sophisticated. 

    Obviously everything has to be field tested and mature before it can have a chance to consolidate but if you make wild, incorrect statements and have them pointed out to you, the very least you can do is counter them with something valid (if you have it to offer). 

    You haven't done that. You just ranted 

    Routers (even in ICT) are notoriously light on resources. Some years ago I did some work related to on-device detection of worm signatures. Most of the time there simply weren't enough resources available to provide a decent solution without impacting performance. A system which allows for devices to announce and pool their strong points is worth a further look. And if your TV has an NPU sitting in it, why not try to take advantage of it? Are you really seeing it as just a TV and not a computer running HarmonyOS? Have you even bothered to look at what's inside something like a Huawei X65? 

    I suppose if Apple were doing the same there would be little scorn from you. 

    What Huawei is doing with HarmonyOS is actually very interesting. You should pack up your political opinion and take a look at what they are trying to bring to market from a technological perspective. But before you do that, read up on what they have actually said and try not to be so consumed with Apple and anti everything else. 


    edited November 2020 elijahg
  • Reply 55 of 122
    One fun point not mentioned or even really hinted at: Apple Silicon Macs will very effectively kill any would-be hackintoshes, as niche as they are, from existing.

    Sure, old Intel-based hackintoshes will continue to exist, but they’ll fade in any chance of updated applications shortly enough, even with serious alt-mac developers that write drivers for hardware and by pass kernel code signing requirements. With Apple using truly custom and self-consistent features in their hardware, while in theory the Apple Silicon hardware can be done software with a regular CPU and drivers be written to use it, the performance won’t be viable for the costs.

    I can’t discount people sufficiently skilled and dedicated to using FPGAs or even designing and manufacturing custom chips to improve the capacity to approach Apple Silicon Mac performance, but even with no legal issues being discussed, it just won’t be financially-viable: it’s only something you would bother doing for the sake of doing it, perhaps as something to brag about.  Even then, Apple has been developing enough custom purpose-made silicon for their SoCs that it’d require a lot of time, a sufficiently large team, and lots of money: Apple Silicon is the deepest and widest moat Apple has ever had for cloners to overcome.

    I’m not saying this is a bad thing for anyone (other than cheapskates trying to spend less money to run MacOS), it’s just a readily-obvious truth.
  • Reply 56 of 122
    22july201322july2013 Posts: 2,656member
    Dainel, I'm glad to see you have a realistic understanding of the PRC. I don't get why people like to defend the PRC, it's like defending "that party which shall not be named" in Germany in the 1930s.
    seanjprairiewalkerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 57 of 122
    The article gets many things wrong.  The transition from 680x0 to PowerPC was a very good move.  The article implies that the switch to PowerPC was a bad move because no one else in the industry used PowerPC chips.  That had nothing to do with it.  The 680x0 architecture was going nowhere.  The 68060 to replace the 68040 was not much faster and required a lot of re-writes to take advantage of it.  The PowerPC, on the other hand, offered huge performance boosts that were much faster than Intel at the time.  Remember the famous snail ad?  That gave Apple a big boost, especially with the G3, G4, and G5.

    The shift to Intel had nothing to do with compatibility.  The PowerPC reached its limit.  The G5 ran too hot for any type of portable use, and it would actually run slower than a G4, if they managed to shoehorn it into a PowerBook chassis.  IBM also could not produce any faster G5 chips for the desktop.  Intel, on the other hand, had the performance per watt and that is what Apple was looking for.  The Core Duo chips were far superior, and made the MacBook Pro run 5x faster than the G4.  Remember, Apple could not make the products they wanted to make with the PowerPC roadmap.  Also, when Apple acquired NeXT, OpenStep was already x86 native.  All versions of OS X were 100% x86 native behind closed doors.  Apple knew the PowerPC was reaching its limit and had been planning for Intel years before the switch took place.  Boot Camp and running Windows natively was just an added bonus.

    The need to run Windows on Mac is still quite popular for running Windows as a VM on Mac, especially for developing software, so that might be a minor loss.  But Apple shifting to their own processors allows them to release new hardware on their schedule, and not be dependent on Intel.  Apple has done very well with the Intel Macs and it is amazing that the Intel Macs have outlasted both PowerPC and 680x0 Macs in longevity....at 14 years.
    elijahgseanjtobian
  • Reply 58 of 122
    mattinozmattinoz Posts: 1,686member
    So will the Mac line of chips feature an Afterburner (FGA) as stock across the board?
    What will set them apart and how will drive general-purpose computing to its near future and beyond?

    It be interesting to see what tricks the Mac brings to the ASi toolbox. They've talked it up now its time for a bit of delivery and tease.

    watto_cobra
  • Reply 59 of 122
    radarthekatradarthekat Posts: 3,403moderator
    cloudguy said:
    First off, never forget that this is from the same guy that as late as 2015 was claiming that no profits were being made on Android and that Google, Samsung and the rest were going to abandon it. He never took responsibility for those false claims.

    Second, please realize that right now Apple has 8% market share in PCs. ChromeOS - which already includes ARM devices like the Lenovo IdeaPad Duet, the #1 selling ChromeOS device this year - has 11%. Were it not for mass shortages of Chromebooks caused by COVID-19 induced supply chain disruptions, ChromeOS would have 13-14% market share.

    Third, this fellow writing off the success that is Android is hilarious. It has 75% - 85% market share. And the only reason why Google Play has less revenue than the app store is because Google chooses not to operate in China. In other words, the gap between Google Play and iOS is much closer than the gap between macOS and Windows. Yet he wants us to believe that Android is somehow a failure? That Samsung and the rest would be better off by not manufacturing Android apps? Or that all these developers and software companies have not gained tons of revenue off Android apps? 

    Fourth, Apple Silicon being so much faster than Intel-based PCs won't matter if:

    A) Apple Silicon devices continue to cost far more than Intel and AMD-based PCs with equivalent RAM and storage configurations: they do.
    B) if Apple Silicon devices don't run the software that large subsets of the population needs and wants: they don't.

    Let me give you an example: PC gaming. The Acer Nitro 5 is a legit 1080p gaming machine with 8 GB of RAM (easily and cheaply expandable to 32 GB), 256 GB SSD (again easily to expand with USB-C port), Intel Core i5 and Nvidia GPU and 16' screen. Cost: $650. The cheapest MacBook with an Intel i5 and a discrete GPU? $1200! And for that $1200 ... you won't be able to play very many games. Though some Steam games are supported, even massive hits like Rocket League are available. So gaming with a Mac requires bootcamp. And that is today. Steam, Origin, EA and Epic are not going to run at all on ARM-based Macs, just as they don't on ARM-based Windows 10. Bootcamp and Parallels? They won't be either.

    Also, believing that Intel is going to be at 10nm forever is nuts. They have a 7nm design already, just no way to manufacture it. They were on the verge of getting TSMC to manufacture their 7nm chips but had to back off because of internal opposition, but a final decision will be made in 2021 based on the progress that they have made with their own foundries. (By the way, it is very unseemly for Apple fans - who are totally reliant on other companies to manufacture components for them - to bash companies who make their own components like Intel, Qualcomm and Samsung.)  Because Intel uses way more transistors in their chips than anyone else, a 7nm Intel chip is equivalent to a 5nm AMD, Qualcomm or Apple A14 chip. Now Intel is actually capable of paying TSMC to make their 7nm chips at any time. They won't because of business reasons: they want at least 18 months to sell their current 10nm chips first or else they will lose money on that generation. But rest assured that by the time the 2 year transition from Intel to Ax is complete, Intel will have released their 7nm chips and be well on the way to 5nm,

    Until then? Another problem is thinking that Microsoft, Windows and ChromeOS only rely on Intel when they absolutely do not. In case you haven't heard, the fastest desktop chip is no longer the Intel i9-10900K. Instead the fastest desktop chip is the AMD Ryzen 9 5950X. The Ryzen 9 is on a 7nm process. 5nm process AMD chips are being manufactured right now in the same TSMC foundry that is currently making the 5nm Apple A14 chips. (This is why Qualcomm shifted their 5nm Snapdragon chips to Samsung for this year.) So if Dell, Lenovo, HP and the rest need to surpass what Intel is capable of, they can just use AMD. 

    So long story short, don't believe anything this guy says. Just do an Internet search on his rants about how Android was NEVER going to catch iOS in market share and Google - who now has a $1 trillion and counting capitalization - was on the verge of going belly up. That will let you know how you shouldn't rely on this fellow for predictions.
    Having read all that I’m now even more excited about Apple Silicon.  Why, you ask?  Because Apple knows everything you just wrote and is still going their own direction.  That tells me Apple will not just be competitive but will also be more flexible in their product release timing, and might be planning to ultimately leave everyone behind given their vertical integration chops.  
    rundhvidwilliamlondonroundaboutnowwatto_cobratmay
  • Reply 60 of 122
    rezwitsrezwits Posts: 759member
    Hehe, you guys are kinda funny.

    The moral of the story, is Software and Hardware vendors, need(ed) to learn how to shift from CHIP to CHIP, or Platform to Platform, or your ecosystem is BLOWN!

    Where others in the last 40 years haven't done squat, Apple is in SUCH a good position, that if, some other Processor came out in the future, Apple will be right there able adapt and shift to take advantage and get a leap and a boost in technology.

    Where Windows users are still running Microsoft's piece, and are suffering.  They are trying to use ARM for Windows, but heck they lost out on the whole consumer PHONE market and had to almost practically completely move to a BUSINESS ONLY model, if not for Xbox.  Plus the engineers that ran the software in the past are long gone and the company is left with a code base they can't even MANAGE. oh and PC gaming yeah iRacing sure whatever.

    But we are moving into a whole new realm with PS5 and Xbox Series whatever, so as far as gaming is concered please, you haven't a clue...  I mean how many years are you gonna be a "PC gamer?" 50? gees...

    Gaming is moving to Handheld and Console, you must be blind!  (must be too much Oculus)

    adapt...change shift shape...

    That's Apple's Power... it's been a long road, but lastly there is more to Software and Hardware, than playing a game with a really fast video card.  The frameworks that are waay waaay more robust and solid, are what matters most.

    If you had to bet what SYSTEM, we will be using in a 100 years, would you BET on Windows? or UNIX/Darwin/Linux?

    I gotta go SNL is on!  More Comedy TIME!!!
    watto_cobra
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