No, you continually claim that the US is invading for the benefit of the "poor poor" Iraqi people. You do so as it is the *only* result of this war which is not utterly odious, disregarding the fact that it is an unintended byproduct at best.
And, as I've said before, Bush & Co. selling this war on humanitarian grounds turns my stomach.
Probably because, in your heart, you know they're right.
(What follows is the link and the article that I referred to a few pages ago and is provided to clarify my previous posts in this thread.)
[CAPITALISM MAGAZINE.COM] How do you admit you were wrong? What do you do when you realize those you were defending in fact did not want your defense and wanted something completely different from you and from the world?
This is my story. It will probably upset everybody - those with whom I have fought for peace all my life and those for whom the decision for war comes a bit too fast.
I am an Assyrian. I was born and raised in Japan where I am the second generation in ministry after my Father came to Japan in answer to General Douglas Macarthur's call for 10,000 young people to help rebuild Japan following the war.
As a minister and due to my personal convictions I have always been against war for any and all reasons. It was precisely this moral conviction that led me to do all I could to stop the current war in Iraq.
From participating in demonstrations against the war in Japan to strongly opposing it on my radio program, on television and in regular columns I did my best to stand against what I thought to be an unjust war against an innocent people - in fact my people.
As an Assyrian I was told the story of our people from a young age. How my grandparents had escaped the great Assyrian Holocaust in 1917 settling finally in Chicago.
Currently there are approximately six million Assyrians - approximately 1.2 million in Iraq and the rest scattered in the Assyrian Diaspora across the world.
Without a country and rights even in our native land it has been the prayer of generations that the Assyrian Nation will one day be restored and the people of the once great Assyrian Empire will once again be home.
HOME AT LAST
It was with that feeling, together with supplies for our Church and family that I went to Iraq to do all I could to help make a difference. The feeling as I crossed the border was exhilarating - `home at last, I hought, as I would for the first time visit the land of my forefathers. The kindness of the border guards when they learned I was Assyrian, the taxi, the people on the street it was like being back `home` after a long absence.
Now I finally know myself! The laid back, relaxed atmosphere, the kindness to strangers, the food, the smells, the language all seemed to trigger a long lost memory somewhere in my deepest DNA.
The first order of business was to attend Church. It was here where my morals were raked over the coals and I was first forced to examine them in the harsh light of reality.
Following a beautiful 'Peace' to welcome the Peace Activists in which even the children participated, we moved to the next room to have a simple meal.
Sitting next to me was an older man who carefully began to sound me out. Apparently feeling the freedom to talk in the midst of the mingling crowd he suddenly turned to me and said `There is something you should know.` `What` I asked surprised at the sudden comment.
`We didn't want to be here tonight`. he continued. `When the Priest asked us to gather for a Peace Service we said we didn't want to come`. He said.
`What do you mean` I inquired, confused. `We didn't want to come because we don't want peace` he replied.
`What in the world do you mean?` I asked. `How could you not want peace?` `We don't want peace. We want the war to come` he continued.
What in the world are you talking about? I blurted back.
That was the beginning of a strange odyssey that deeply shattered my convictions and moral base but at the same time gave me hope for my people and, in fact, hope for the world.
Just trying to get a handle on why you go off on some anti-Republican rant defending Clinton.
A lot of women I know get emotional and are easily distracted during "that time". Just curious.
*hugs*
I don't know what the hell I'd be rebutting there. I feel no need to defend Republicans.
But I guess next time if I can't rebut something you say I'll just go on an off-topic partisan rant.
--
stupider:
Well you just keep on thinking that's what I meant.
Have fun doing it.
I'm sure Groverat thinks he's very funny but, just to clarify I've got the wrong gender orientation ( I'm a guy ) for this statement. It may show what he thinks about women however.
Whenever I think about them killing Saddam with a bomb on the first day of the war, I can't help but picture that scene from Hot Shots where the Saddam catches the bomb in his lap before it blows up and he has to drop his umbrella drink. ;-)
Probably because, in your heart, you know they're right.
Aries 1B, if you're trying to argue that we're going in to Iraq for humanitarians reasons, talk to groverat. He's made some very strong arguments to the contrary.
But was never replaced with any substantive evidence of anything.
It didn't need to be, the troops were in place and the timetables took over.
By that point there really didn't need to be a reason, we were going to 'kick ass'
which, enthusiasm for the release of aggression after a national tragedy like 911, is probably the real reason just under the surface of our collective consciouse anyway . . .
Aries 1B, if you're trying to argue that we're going in to Iraq for humanitarians reasons, talk to groverat. He's made some very strong arguments to the contrary.
We're in Iraq to prevent another attack upon the United States of America; that's the prime reason. We asked for UN help for twelve years and they did nothing.
There are many benefits to the liberation of Iraq. The freeing of the Iraqi people from the Hussein Regime is one of them.
Think of a 'benefits pyramid'. At the top: Protection of Americans. Below that level, freeing the Iraqi people, and rebuilding (and perhaps stabilizing) the Middle East. And down in the pyramid, the Arab World learns what happens when you attack the US.
Those who are against the war because they want to protect the Iraqi people really should refer to the linked article.
Honest.
Aries 1B
Communist/Socialist/Internationalists who hate the United States simply don't matter. Except for the entertainment that they provide.
We're in Iraq to prevent another attack upon the United States of America; that's the prime reason.
Iraq didn't attack America. Iraq, so far as anyone has been able to prove, had nothing to do with any attacks upon American soil. Is SH a turd? Yes. Was he involved in 9/11? All (lack of) evidence points to no.
Quote:
We asked for UN help for twelve years and they did nothing.
twelve years, huh? We waited on the UN to stop Iraq from attacking the US again for 12 years? No. That's not what those 12 years were about.
Quote:
There are many benefits to the liberation of Iraq. The freeing of the Iraqi people from the Hussein Regime is one of them.
And the doling out of contracts to US companies to "rebuild" Iraq is another. As is the ability to put in power a government more, shall we say, amenable, to our "interests" in the region.
Quote:
Think of a 'benefits pyramid'. At the top: Protection of Americans. Below that level, freeing the Iraqi people, and rebuilding (and perhaps stabilizing) the Middle East. And down in the pyramid, the Arab World learns what happens when you attack the US.
That's a remarkable pyramid you have there. If, as you say, at the top we have the "protection of Americans," one would think that we would do everything possiblet to protect them, which would most definitely mean not sending them off to get shot at. It would also include avoiding foreign policy that might lead to them getting shot at.
Quote:
Those who are against the war because they want to protect the Iraqi people really should refer to the linked article.
I'm not against the war because I want to protect Iraqi citizens (although that's a part of it). I'm against the war because 1) I don't like to see American kids get shot at and killed and 2) I don't like to see headlines on MSNBC that say we killed 340 Iraqi kids in one minor skirmish. Do you like to see American kids get shot at? Or do you just like to see Iraqi kids get killed?
Quote:
Communist/Socialist/Internationalists who hate the United States simply don't matter. Except for the entertainment that they provide.
I have no idea what this means. Although, I would ask why, if you're apparently opposed to "internationalists," why you would seemingly support a war of aggression designed to further US international interests. Perhaps those goals are just as anti-american as the "communist/socialist" agendas you note?
>>>>>Iraq didn't attack America. Iraq, so far as anyone has been able to prove, had nothing to do with any attacks upon American soil.<<<<<
This isn't a war of revenge upon SH. This is a preventative Action. I was not and am not willing to wait for SH to supply some terrorist cadre with WMD to use on us. The United States of America will never again delude itself that those who take active measures in preparation of an attack us (versus those who just talk about it) don't mean to fulfill those evil ambitions. We will fulfill their ambitions for Martyrdom and send them Onward. They'll be happy, we'll be happy....
>>>>>Is SH a turd? Yes.<<<<<
You understate the degree of the man's evil. This man's power lust is almost as bad as that of Hillary Clinton (and that of the rest of the Left).
>>>>>Was he involved in 9/11? All (lack of) evidence points to no.<<<<<
A disconnected issue to this war at best. Again, this has been a preventative attack. If the USN had attacked the Nagumo Task Force on its way to Pearl Harbor on December 6, 1941, they would have been entirely justified in preventing December 7's Infamy. That is what is going on in Iraq.
>>>>>twelve years, huh? We waited on the UN to stop Iraq from attacking the US again for 12 years? No. That's not what those 12 years were about.<<<<<
I know that but I don't know why you said that unless you want to argue the point with yourself. Whatever... enjoy.
We waited on the UN to strip SH of his WMD for twelve years (to prevent his supplying them to his terrorist allies or using them on our ally in the Middle East) and they did nothing. Now they can continue doing nothing as we (the United States, that is) rebuild Iraq. The UN, because of this, is going the way of the League of Nations and good riddance.
>>>>>And the doling out of contracts to US companies to "rebuild" Iraq is another.<<<<<
Indeed it is! And as the Iraqi standard of living in what will be a Secular-Islamic-Capitalist State rises, lots and lots of people are going to make money (except for those unfortunates who continue to damn Capitalism. Poverty, like wealth, is earned.). If Apple were smart, their next Apple Store would be in Baghdad.
>>>>>As is the ability to put in power a government more, shall we say, amenable, to our "interests" in the region.<<<<<
We agree. You, however, see an expansion of American interests in the Middle East independent of Saudi Arabia (right near the top of the Benefits Pyramid) as a sinister thing; there we disagree. People are going to make so much money on this, it will be wonderful.
>>>>>That's a remarkable pyramid you have there.<<<<<
I know; it's great!
>>>>>If, as you say, at the top we have the "protection of Americans," one would think that we would do everything possiblet to protect them, which would most definitely mean not sending them off to get shot at.<<<<<
One of the disabilities of a collectivistic point of view is the heaping of different groups together. The function of the military of the United States is to protect the civilians of the United States from external aggression. We have sent them off to DO the shooting, not to get shot at (although that does go with several Military Operational Specialites). And they have done a SUPERB job. As I write this, US and British forces are IN Baghdad. I am so goddamned proud of the Coalition Military I could just bust!
>>>>>It would also include avoiding foreign policy that might lead to them getting shot at.<<<<<
You can't please everyone all the time and you particularly can't please those who have sworn to kill you unless you surrender and let them kill you. We won't do that and we will cheerfully rush them off to their desired martyrdom. As an aside, I haven't heard what's become of them, but I hope that the 6000+ protomartyrs of the Martyr Brigades are at this moment having their ways with their virgins in paradise and that their bodies are littering the desert.
>>>>>I'm not against the war because I want to protect Iraqi citizens (although that's a part of it).<<<<<
The best way to protect the Iraqis is to get this infernal regime off of their necks. They live in a horror not seen since the days of the Soviet Union and Russian COMMUNISM.
>>>>>I'm against the war because 1) I don't like to see American kids get shot at and killed<<<<<
A nice sentiment, but extremely arrogant. It is arrogant because this is an all volunteer force whose destiny you want to control. They WANT to be there. Their morale is high and they are fulfilling their Oaths to Duty, Honor, and Country that meets the high standards set by their revered predecessors at Normandy, Yorktown, San Juan Hill, Khe Sahn, and Kuwait. I'm an atheist, but Godbless them one and all.
>>>>>and 2) I don't like to see headlines on MSNBC that say we killed 340 Iraqi kids in one minor skirmish. Do you like to see American kids get shot at? Or do you just like to see Iraqi kids get killed?<<<<<
The coverage is better on Fox. And for the last time, I goddamned hate to see Amemrican Men and Women killed, but getting shot at is part of the deal when you're at war. I do like seeing Iraqis surrender in droves, kissing the hands of our troops as they are delivered from their servitude to Saddamn. The Iraqi soldiers who are being killed are actively defending one of the most evil, medievel regimes in the world today. I shall not mourn their passing and shall cheer on our troops as they emerge victorious from this war.
>>>>>I have no idea what this means.<<<<<
I'm talking about the Philosphical Axis of Evil that can't stand the idea of a United States that recognizes itself and its ideals as Good and worth defending. Despite their protestations to the contrary, the PAE applies in varying degrees to most of the people who have protested this war and who are simply outraged that America still has sufficient self esteem to defend herself. We will defend ourselves against all enemies foreign and domestic. The gloves are off and it is about time. (I'm sure that you will be quoting that line (probably in stunned, aghast outrage) in the future - please make sure that you attribute it to the Ammerican Man who wrote it: Aries 1B).
>>>>>Although, I would ask why, if you're apparently opposed to "internationalists," why you would seemingly support a war of aggression designed to further US international interests.<<<<<
This statement bespeaks a short circuit so profound that it urges me to implore you to get more sleep.
-My support for this war is unstoppable-just like the Coalition Forces; there is no 'seems' about it. I'm aghast that I've been so unclear....
-'War of Aggression' is a slur that attempts to paint everyone who supports the war in Iraq with a Brush of Evil. Such a phrase would only be uttered by someone who wanted America humbled. You're not one of *those*, are you?
-If not the furtherance of US International Interests, then whose International Interests should I cheer on? I'm looking forward to a bright future alongside our still-being-born new trading partner: The Free Nation of Iraq. They've got oil, we've got consumer goods; the boom of the nineties is going to look like the 1930's depression.
>>>>>Perhaps those goals are just as anti-american as the "communist/socialist" agendas you note?<<<<<
You've tried to paint these benefits as anti-American, but I don't think that they are. And I don't think that the electorial college majority of Americans will think that they are come the presidential election for 2004.
This is about the most un-American action possible. Treasonous.
Ask the families of the 3000 Americans (in outlook if not in outright citizenship) ground to dust in the World Trade Center if the prevention of the September 11, 2001 attack would have been treasonous and un-American.
Why don't you go down to the Iraqi Embassy and apologize to them. I'll bet you can make CNN, especially if you weep.
Ask the families of the 3000 Americans (in outlook if not in outright citizenship) ground to dust in the World Trade Center if the prevention of the September 11, 2001 attack would have been treasonous and un-American.
It takes a serious lack of critical thought to come up with an analogy like this.
If the USN had attacked the Nagumo Task Force on its way to Pearl Harbor on December 6, 1941, they would have been entirely justified in preventing December 7's Infamy. That is what is going on in Iraq.
A minor point here: The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was a pre-emptive one, since they saw our Navy there as a threat to their national security and a very real potential military threat.
Your own logic here suggests that pre-emptive strikes = infamy.
A minor point here: The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was a pre-emptive one, since they saw our Navy there as a threat to their national security and a very real potential military threat.
Your own logic here suggests that pre-emptive strikes = infamy.
Remember that.
Cheers
Scott
Really, the logic that you choose to extract from my statements. I'll bet you could imagine/interpret one hell of a story out of an ink blot test.
American preemptive strikes against those preparing (not just talking tough) to kill Americans are good things to do. Grant terrorists their martyrdom in their terrorist camps as they sleep in their beds. They will die in a cause that they believe in and we will kill them for a cause that *I*, at least, believe in: the saving of American lives.
Comments
Originally posted by stupider...likeafox
No, you continually claim that the US is invading for the benefit of the "poor poor" Iraqi people. You do so as it is the *only* result of this war which is not utterly odious, disregarding the fact that it is an unintended byproduct at best.
And, as I've said before, Bush & Co. selling this war on humanitarian grounds turns my stomach.
Probably because, in your heart, you know they're right.
(What follows is the link and the article that I referred to a few pages ago and is provided to clarify my previous posts in this thread.)
(Warning-long post and it is a damned sad read):
>>>>>
http://capmag.com/article.asp?ID=2631
"I Was Wrong."
by Ken Joseph, Jr. _(April_1,_2003)
[CAPITALISM MAGAZINE.COM] How do you admit you were wrong? What do you do when you realize those you were defending in fact did not want your defense and wanted something completely different from you and from the world?
This is my story. It will probably upset everybody - those with whom I have fought for peace all my life and those for whom the decision for war comes a bit too fast.
I am an Assyrian. I was born and raised in Japan where I am the second generation in ministry after my Father came to Japan in answer to General Douglas Macarthur's call for 10,000 young people to help rebuild Japan following the war.
As a minister and due to my personal convictions I have always been against war for any and all reasons. It was precisely this moral conviction that led me to do all I could to stop the current war in Iraq.
From participating in demonstrations against the war in Japan to strongly opposing it on my radio program, on television and in regular columns I did my best to stand against what I thought to be an unjust war against an innocent people - in fact my people.
As an Assyrian I was told the story of our people from a young age. How my grandparents had escaped the great Assyrian Holocaust in 1917 settling finally in Chicago.
Currently there are approximately six million Assyrians - approximately 1.2 million in Iraq and the rest scattered in the Assyrian Diaspora across the world.
Without a country and rights even in our native land it has been the prayer of generations that the Assyrian Nation will one day be restored and the people of the once great Assyrian Empire will once again be home.
HOME AT LAST
It was with that feeling, together with supplies for our Church and family that I went to Iraq to do all I could to help make a difference. The feeling as I crossed the border was exhilarating - `home at last, I hought, as I would for the first time visit the land of my forefathers. The kindness of the border guards when they learned I was Assyrian, the taxi, the people on the street it was like being back `home` after a long absence.
Now I finally know myself! The laid back, relaxed atmosphere, the kindness to strangers, the food, the smells, the language all seemed to trigger a long lost memory somewhere in my deepest DNA.
The first order of business was to attend Church. It was here where my morals were raked over the coals and I was first forced to examine them in the harsh light of reality.
Following a beautiful 'Peace' to welcome the Peace Activists in which even the children participated, we moved to the next room to have a simple meal.
Sitting next to me was an older man who carefully began to sound me out. Apparently feeling the freedom to talk in the midst of the mingling crowd he suddenly turned to me and said `There is something you should know.` `What` I asked surprised at the sudden comment.
`We didn't want to be here tonight`. he continued. `When the Priest asked us to gather for a Peace Service we said we didn't want to come`. He said.
`What do you mean` I inquired, confused. `We didn't want to come because we don't want peace` he replied.
`What in the world do you mean?` I asked. `How could you not want peace?` `We don't want peace. We want the war to come` he continued.
What in the world are you talking about? I blurted back.
That was the beginning of a strange odyssey that deeply shattered my convictions and moral base but at the same time gave me hope for my people and, in fact, hope for the world.
(continued)
Originally posted by bunge
GBS is fine. Weighing dollar amounts is sick.
Do you want to weigh body counts instead?
We can do that, too.
Originally posted by groverat
jimmac:
Just trying to get a handle on why you go off on some anti-Republican rant defending Clinton.
A lot of women I know get emotional and are easily distracted during "that time". Just curious.
*hugs*
I don't know what the hell I'd be rebutting there. I feel no need to defend Republicans.
But I guess next time if I can't rebut something you say I'll just go on an off-topic partisan rant.
--
stupider:
Well you just keep on thinking that's what I meant.
Have fun doing it.
I'm sure Groverat thinks he's very funny but, just to clarify I've got the wrong gender orientation ( I'm a guy ) for this statement. It may show what he thinks about women however.
Originally posted by Aries 1B
Probably because, in your heart, you know they're right.
Aries 1B, if you're trying to argue that we're going in to Iraq for humanitarians reasons, talk to groverat. He's made some very strong arguments to the contrary.
Originally posted by groverat
Do you want to weigh body counts instead?
If the cause is just, there is no body count too high. If the cause is the dollar, no dollar amount is too high to avoid one body.
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
But was never replaced with any substantive evidence of anything.
It didn't need to be, the troops were in place and the timetables took over.
By that point there really didn't need to be a reason, we were going to 'kick ass'
which, enthusiasm for the release of aggression after a national tragedy like 911, is probably the real reason just under the surface of our collective consciouse anyway . . .
Originally posted by bunge
Aries 1B, if you're trying to argue that we're going in to Iraq for humanitarians reasons, talk to groverat. He's made some very strong arguments to the contrary.
We're in Iraq to prevent another attack upon the United States of America; that's the prime reason. We asked for UN help for twelve years and they did nothing.
There are many benefits to the liberation of Iraq. The freeing of the Iraqi people from the Hussein Regime is one of them.
Think of a 'benefits pyramid'. At the top: Protection of Americans. Below that level, freeing the Iraqi people, and rebuilding (and perhaps stabilizing) the Middle East. And down in the pyramid, the Arab World learns what happens when you attack the US.
Those who are against the war because they want to protect the Iraqi people really should refer to the linked article.
Honest.
Aries 1B
Communist/Socialist/Internationalists who hate the United States simply don't matter. Except for the entertainment that they provide.
We're in Iraq to prevent another attack upon the United States of America; that's the prime reason.
Iraq didn't attack America. Iraq, so far as anyone has been able to prove, had nothing to do with any attacks upon American soil. Is SH a turd? Yes. Was he involved in 9/11? All (lack of) evidence points to no.
We asked for UN help for twelve years and they did nothing.
twelve years, huh? We waited on the UN to stop Iraq from attacking the US again for 12 years? No. That's not what those 12 years were about.
There are many benefits to the liberation of Iraq. The freeing of the Iraqi people from the Hussein Regime is one of them.
And the doling out of contracts to US companies to "rebuild" Iraq is another. As is the ability to put in power a government more, shall we say, amenable, to our "interests" in the region.
Think of a 'benefits pyramid'. At the top: Protection of Americans. Below that level, freeing the Iraqi people, and rebuilding (and perhaps stabilizing) the Middle East. And down in the pyramid, the Arab World learns what happens when you attack the US.
That's a remarkable pyramid you have there. If, as you say, at the top we have the "protection of Americans," one would think that we would do everything possiblet to protect them, which would most definitely mean not sending them off to get shot at. It would also include avoiding foreign policy that might lead to them getting shot at.
Those who are against the war because they want to protect the Iraqi people really should refer to the linked article.
I'm not against the war because I want to protect Iraqi citizens (although that's a part of it). I'm against the war because 1) I don't like to see American kids get shot at and killed and 2) I don't like to see headlines on MSNBC that say we killed 340 Iraqi kids in one minor skirmish. Do you like to see American kids get shot at? Or do you just like to see Iraqi kids get killed?
Communist/Socialist/Internationalists who hate the United States simply don't matter. Except for the entertainment that they provide.
I have no idea what this means. Although, I would ask why, if you're apparently opposed to "internationalists," why you would seemingly support a war of aggression designed to further US international interests. Perhaps those goals are just as anti-american as the "communist/socialist" agendas you note?
Cheers
Scott
19 years old, lower-middle class, and suddnely having killed numerous young men . . . . sometimes upwards to dozens (bombers)
this will take a tole on these kids, and it makes me sad to think of it.
"We're in Iraq to prevent another attack upon the United States of America; "
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just where do get this? Proof or a link please.
>>>>>Iraq didn't attack America. Iraq, so far as anyone has been able to prove, had nothing to do with any attacks upon American soil.<<<<<
This isn't a war of revenge upon SH. This is a preventative Action. I was not and am not willing to wait for SH to supply some terrorist cadre with WMD to use on us. The United States of America will never again delude itself that those who take active measures in preparation of an attack us (versus those who just talk about it) don't mean to fulfill those evil ambitions. We will fulfill their ambitions for Martyrdom and send them Onward. They'll be happy, we'll be happy....
>>>>>Is SH a turd? Yes.<<<<<
You understate the degree of the man's evil. This man's power lust is almost as bad as that of Hillary Clinton (and that of the rest of the Left).
>>>>>Was he involved in 9/11? All (lack of) evidence points to no.<<<<<
A disconnected issue to this war at best. Again, this has been a preventative attack. If the USN had attacked the Nagumo Task Force on its way to Pearl Harbor on December 6, 1941, they would have been entirely justified in preventing December 7's Infamy. That is what is going on in Iraq.
>>>>>twelve years, huh? We waited on the UN to stop Iraq from attacking the US again for 12 years? No. That's not what those 12 years were about.<<<<<
I know that but I don't know why you said that unless you want to argue the point with yourself. Whatever... enjoy.
We waited on the UN to strip SH of his WMD for twelve years (to prevent his supplying them to his terrorist allies or using them on our ally in the Middle East) and they did nothing. Now they can continue doing nothing as we (the United States, that is) rebuild Iraq. The UN, because of this, is going the way of the League of Nations and good riddance.
>>>>>And the doling out of contracts to US companies to "rebuild" Iraq is another.<<<<<
Indeed it is! And as the Iraqi standard of living in what will be a Secular-Islamic-Capitalist State rises, lots and lots of people are going to make money (except for those unfortunates who continue to damn Capitalism. Poverty, like wealth, is earned.). If Apple were smart, their next Apple Store would be in Baghdad.
>>>>>As is the ability to put in power a government more, shall we say, amenable, to our "interests" in the region.<<<<<
We agree. You, however, see an expansion of American interests in the Middle East independent of Saudi Arabia (right near the top of the Benefits Pyramid) as a sinister thing; there we disagree. People are going to make so much money on this, it will be wonderful.
>>>>>That's a remarkable pyramid you have there.<<<<<
I know; it's great!
>>>>>If, as you say, at the top we have the "protection of Americans," one would think that we would do everything possiblet to protect them, which would most definitely mean not sending them off to get shot at.<<<<<
One of the disabilities of a collectivistic point of view is the heaping of different groups together. The function of the military of the United States is to protect the civilians of the United States from external aggression. We have sent them off to DO the shooting, not to get shot at (although that does go with several Military Operational Specialites). And they have done a SUPERB job. As I write this, US and British forces are IN Baghdad. I am so goddamned proud of the Coalition Military I could just bust!
>>>>>It would also include avoiding foreign policy that might lead to them getting shot at.<<<<<
You can't please everyone all the time and you particularly can't please those who have sworn to kill you unless you surrender and let them kill you. We won't do that and we will cheerfully rush them off to their desired martyrdom. As an aside, I haven't heard what's become of them, but I hope that the 6000+ protomartyrs of the Martyr Brigades are at this moment having their ways with their virgins in paradise and that their bodies are littering the desert.
>>>>>I'm not against the war because I want to protect Iraqi citizens (although that's a part of it).<<<<<
The best way to protect the Iraqis is to get this infernal regime off of their necks. They live in a horror not seen since the days of the Soviet Union and Russian COMMUNISM.
>>>>>I'm against the war because 1) I don't like to see American kids get shot at and killed<<<<<
A nice sentiment, but extremely arrogant. It is arrogant because this is an all volunteer force whose destiny you want to control. They WANT to be there. Their morale is high and they are fulfilling their Oaths to Duty, Honor, and Country that meets the high standards set by their revered predecessors at Normandy, Yorktown, San Juan Hill, Khe Sahn, and Kuwait. I'm an atheist, but Godbless them one and all.
>>>>>and 2) I don't like to see headlines on MSNBC that say we killed 340 Iraqi kids in one minor skirmish. Do you like to see American kids get shot at? Or do you just like to see Iraqi kids get killed?<<<<<
The coverage is better on Fox. And for the last time, I goddamned hate to see Amemrican Men and Women killed, but getting shot at is part of the deal when you're at war. I do like seeing Iraqis surrender in droves, kissing the hands of our troops as they are delivered from their servitude to Saddamn. The Iraqi soldiers who are being killed are actively defending one of the most evil, medievel regimes in the world today. I shall not mourn their passing and shall cheer on our troops as they emerge victorious from this war.
>>>>>I have no idea what this means.<<<<<
I'm talking about the Philosphical Axis of Evil that can't stand the idea of a United States that recognizes itself and its ideals as Good and worth defending. Despite their protestations to the contrary, the PAE applies in varying degrees to most of the people who have protested this war and who are simply outraged that America still has sufficient self esteem to defend herself. We will defend ourselves against all enemies foreign and domestic. The gloves are off and it is about time. (I'm sure that you will be quoting that line (probably in stunned, aghast outrage) in the future - please make sure that you attribute it to the Ammerican Man who wrote it: Aries 1B).
>>>>>Although, I would ask why, if you're apparently opposed to "internationalists," why you would seemingly support a war of aggression designed to further US international interests.<<<<<
This statement bespeaks a short circuit so profound that it urges me to implore you to get more sleep.
-My support for this war is unstoppable-just like the Coalition Forces; there is no 'seems' about it. I'm aghast that I've been so unclear....
-'War of Aggression' is a slur that attempts to paint everyone who supports the war in Iraq with a Brush of Evil. Such a phrase would only be uttered by someone who wanted America humbled. You're not one of *those*, are you?
-If not the furtherance of US International Interests, then whose International Interests should I cheer on? I'm looking forward to a bright future alongside our still-being-born new trading partner: The Free Nation of Iraq. They've got oil, we've got consumer goods; the boom of the nineties is going to look like the 1930's depression.
>>>>>Perhaps those goals are just as anti-american as the "communist/socialist" agendas you note?<<<<<
You've tried to paint these benefits as anti-American, but I don't think that they are. And I don't think that the electorial college majority of Americans will think that they are come the presidential election for 2004.
>>>>>Cheers
Scott<<<<<
Cheeyahs to you!
Aries 1B
Originally posted by Aries 1B
This is a preventative Action. [/B]
This is about the most un-American action possible. Treasonous.
Originally posted by bunge
This is about the most un-American action possible. Treasonous.
Ask the families of the 3000 Americans (in outlook if not in outright citizenship) ground to dust in the World Trade Center if the prevention of the September 11, 2001 attack would have been treasonous and un-American.
Why don't you go down to the Iraqi Embassy and apologize to them. I'll bet you can make CNN, especially if you weep.
"An American apologizes to Saddamn Hussein...."
Aries 1B
Originally posted by Aries 1B
Ask the families of the 3000 Americans (in outlook if not in outright citizenship) ground to dust in the World Trade Center if the prevention of the September 11, 2001 attack would have been treasonous and un-American.
It takes a serious lack of critical thought to come up with an analogy like this.
If the USN had attacked the Nagumo Task Force on its way to Pearl Harbor on December 6, 1941, they would have been entirely justified in preventing December 7's Infamy. That is what is going on in Iraq.
A minor point here: The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was a pre-emptive one, since they saw our Navy there as a threat to their national security and a very real potential military threat.
Your own logic here suggests that pre-emptive strikes = infamy.
Remember that.
Cheers
Scott
Originally posted by bunge
It takes a serious lack of critical thought to come up with an analogy like this.
It takes a serious case of moral relativism to criticize this analogy.
We will never be taken by surprise again.
Aries 1B
Originally posted by Aries 1B
We will never be taken by surprise again
Please make a note that on 4/5/03 you said this. Write it down somewhere.
Cheers
Scott
Originally posted by midwinter
A minor point here: The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was a pre-emptive one, since they saw our Navy there as a threat to their national security and a very real potential military threat.
Your own logic here suggests that pre-emptive strikes = infamy.
Remember that.
Cheers
Scott
Really, the logic that you choose to extract from my statements. I'll bet you could imagine/interpret one hell of a story out of an ink blot test.
American preemptive strikes against those preparing (not just talking tough) to kill Americans are good things to do. Grant terrorists their martyrdom in their terrorist camps as they sleep in their beds. They will die in a cause that they believe in and we will kill them for a cause that *I*, at least, believe in: the saving of American lives.
*You* remember *that*.
Aries 1B