I was leaning toward the need for war last summer, but I am now against it. While war with Iraq possibly was inevitable in the long run, the particular road by which we have arrived at war over the past eight months will be disastrous for US and world security in the long run.
World security will only be provided by effective multilateral action. The current coalition of the willing is a joke - a coalition of the bribed and intimidated - and, in their hearts, the conservative posters on these forums know this. Admit it!
Instead, the US should have expended the time and effort to truly bring its allies on board. Sorry guys, but the US spending eight months going through the motions at the UN, while making it explicit that the US would go ahead regardless of what the UN decides, does not constitute good-faith multilateral action. Nor does the repeated US action in undermining other international efforts (Kyoto, International Criminal Court, missile treaty, etc.).
The US - led by the current ignorant and amoral administration - has effectively chosen to go it alone. This will undermine international cooperation at the national, local and individual level that is necessary to combat terrorism. We will all pay the price. However, for the sake of my children, I hope that I am wrong.
I get your point but I think attitude will change when Saddam is gone. The long run in only shows it's carefully planned and there has not been rushed to anything.
Had it been wrong to attach Hitler before WW2? No
Was it wrong to stop Milosevic? No
Was it wrong attacking the Talibans in Afghanistan? No
Is it wrong to stop Saddam Hussein? No
But it was wrong abandoning the Iraqi people after 'Operation Desert Storm'. Sure it's purpose was to free Kuwait but there were civil upraising against him (Saddam) at the time and we didn't support them then. We simply owe them this time. After Saddam's fall people will realize the coalition was right and the French and Germans will dye in shame
In that this war will make more Muslims hate us; that it will cause confusion and chaos in Iraq where extremists will flourish; that it will continue to destroy the international alliances that REALLY keep the peace; that it won't reduce availability of WOMD to terrorists; that innocent people will die; that the only redeeming feature of replacing Saddam with an administration entirely for the benefit of Iraqis clearly will not happen for several years; that it is already inflaming the countries surrounding Iraq; that brave US and UK soldiers will die; that the motives of those prosecuting the war are suspect; that the notion of "pre-emptive war" is a recipie for trouble all over the planet; that it will end up in an absolutely typical plain vanilla WAR and not this precision-guided game by the time we eventually "win" ...
... all of which will lead to a SERIOUSLY SHITTY future for this planet, with terror, counter-terror and death ...
I am absolutely opposed to this war with every fibre of my body.
Against. Essentially for the same reasons provided by Harald in the post above. But even if I didn't fear the potential long-term repercussions of this war I would be against it simply because a number of people (be they Iraqi civilians or US, UK or Iraqi soldiers) that would otherwise be alive are dying. For this reason alone, all other avenues should have been exhausted before war was started.
Since Apple computer users are most often a lot more wealthy than PC users I'd say that Apple users would be more likely to be educated based on the fact that having money makes it less likely you'll drop out.
Also, look at regions of wealth. I'd think folks from Massachusetts and California would be well off and we know that they are more liberal than Texas and Utah so I suppose Apple users are more likely to be against the war.
Hmmm, it seems to me that most pro peace people are less educated than pro war people. the hollywood croud is a good example. My problem with the peace croud is that i never here a response to the question of "what should we do?
Though i would say that most of the pro war people have more education
and i think that it is pretty much a matter of record
Hmmm, it seems to me that most pro peace people are less educated than pro war people. the hollywood croud is a good example. My problem with the peace croud is that i never here a response to the question of "what should we do?
Though i would say that most of the pro war people have more education
and i think that it is pretty much a matter of record
There are two legal avenues for the US to go to war:
(1) The US is being attacked, or is about to be attacked.
(2) on the authority of the UN Security Council.
(1) How long should we wait. Saddam has stated many times that it is duty to kill americans, etc, etc. anybody who does not believe that irac does not have weapons of distruction is a fool. He has used them so many times in the past. we have seen them we know he had them and he has not given us any proof to have gotten rid of them. I for one do not think that we should wait untill he has a nuke before we deal with him.
(2) the UN was against action against Hitler as well. Infact, all the un does is promote talking. The UN is usless and is not pro action (for anything). give me an example of a mass murderer that the UN approved of taking action against. The UN actually told Saddam that he must comply or else!!
Muslims hate us because of what Propaganda that they are told.
The only way around this is for them to meet americans
after the war we will be far better off than we are now
as we are getting rid of a primary source of anti-american Propaganda
Drink the kool-aid man. Americans are not all that, and many people don't like the US based on some solid reasons - not merely propoganda. Some muslims don't like the US because the US supports Israel, plain and simple. While it's not a good reason, it's totally factual. That's not going to change because of this war. But if you want to believe you know the real reasons there's so much animosity towards the US around the world, go right ahead and believe it...
BTW, Muslims are not the only group in the world that don't like the US and not all Muslims (or even most) can be counted in that group.
-t
ps - Harald, while I appreciate your views regarding the Muslim world, I think you are generalizing a little to much. The muslim world is not of one mind on ANY topic, this one notwithstanding.
OTOH, to torifile any amount of generalizing is too much, so while he has a good heart he really won't accept any statements unless they are accompanied by sworn affadavits.
In that this war will make more Muslims hate us; that it will cause confusion and chaos in Iraq where extremists will flourish; that it will continue to destroy the international alliances that REALLY keep the peace; that it won't reduce availability of WOMD to terrorists; that innocent people will die; that the only redeeming feature of replacing Saddam with an administration entirely for the benefit of Iraqis clearly will not happen for several years; that it is already inflaming the countries surrounding Iraq; that brave US and UK soldiers will die; that the motives of those prosecuting the war are suspect; that the notion of "pre-emptive war" is a recipie for trouble all over the planet; that it will end up in an absolutely typical plain vanilla WAR and not this precision-guided game by the time we eventually "win" ...
... all of which will lead to a SERIOUSLY SHITTY future for this planet, with terror, counter-terror and death ...
I am absolutely opposed to this war with every fibre of my body.
And I, for one, could not agree more. And for that, already, "Thank you Bush and cohorts". Idiots.
Comments
World security will only be provided by effective multilateral action. The current coalition of the willing is a joke - a coalition of the bribed and intimidated - and, in their hearts, the conservative posters on these forums know this. Admit it!
Instead, the US should have expended the time and effort to truly bring its allies on board. Sorry guys, but the US spending eight months going through the motions at the UN, while making it explicit that the US would go ahead regardless of what the UN decides, does not constitute good-faith multilateral action. Nor does the repeated US action in undermining other international efforts (Kyoto, International Criminal Court, missile treaty, etc.).
The US - led by the current ignorant and amoral administration - has effectively chosen to go it alone. This will undermine international cooperation at the national, local and individual level that is necessary to combat terrorism. We will all pay the price. However, for the sake of my children, I hope that I am wrong.
And France has nothing to do with it.
Those bastard Americans! They screw with everything!
Had it been wrong to attach Hitler before WW2? No
Was it wrong to stop Milosevic? No
Was it wrong attacking the Talibans in Afghanistan? No
Is it wrong to stop Saddam Hussein? No
But it was wrong abandoning the Iraqi people after 'Operation Desert Storm'. Sure it's purpose was to free Kuwait but there were civil upraising against him (Saddam) at the time and we didn't support them then. We simply owe them this time. After Saddam's fall people will realize the coalition was right and the French and Germans will dye in shame
... all of which will lead to a SERIOUSLY SHITTY future for this planet, with terror, counter-terror and death ...
I am absolutely opposed to this war with every fibre of my body.
AppleInsider's members that frequent AppleOutsider have voted against the war in Iraq, by 39 votes against 30, and nobody not caring.
There are two legal avenues for the US to go to war:
(1) The US is being attacked, or is about to be attacked.
(2) on the authority of the UN Security Council.
This war fulfils neither of those conditions.
Neither did Vietnam....
Also...this drive to build an American Empire...involving endless war... will backfire in the worst imaginable ways, and maybe for years to come.
Originally posted by DigitalMonkeyBoy
Since Apple computer users are most often a lot more wealthy than PC users I'd say that Apple users would be more likely to be educated based on the fact that having money makes it less likely you'll drop out.
Also, look at regions of wealth. I'd think folks from Massachusetts and California would be well off and we know that they are more liberal than Texas and Utah so I suppose Apple users are more likely to be against the war.
Hmmm, it seems to me that most pro peace people are less educated than pro war people. the hollywood croud is a good example. My problem with the peace croud is that i never here a response to the question of "what should we do?
Though i would say that most of the pro war people have more education
and i think that it is pretty much a matter of record
Originally posted by Harald
In that this war will make more Muslims hate us; that it will cause confusion and chaos in Iraq where extremists will flourish;...
Muslims hate us because of what Propaganda that they are told.
The only way around this is for them to meet americans
after the war we will be far better off than we are now
as we are getting rid of a primary source of anti-american Propaganda
Originally posted by JC
Hmmm, it seems to me that most pro peace people are less educated than pro war people. the hollywood croud is a good example. My problem with the peace croud is that i never here a response to the question of "what should we do?
Though i would say that most of the pro war people have more education
and i think that it is pretty much a matter of record
Yeah well, we just follow the "croud" here.
Originally posted by sammi jo
Against it. See Harald's reasons...also:
There are two legal avenues for the US to go to war:
(1) The US is being attacked, or is about to be attacked.
(2) on the authority of the UN Security Council.
(1) How long should we wait. Saddam has stated many times that it is duty to kill americans, etc, etc. anybody who does not believe that irac does not have weapons of distruction is a fool. He has used them so many times in the past. we have seen them we know he had them and he has not given us any proof to have gotten rid of them. I for one do not think that we should wait untill he has a nuke before we deal with him.
(2) the UN was against action against Hitler as well. Infact, all the un does is promote talking. The UN is usless and is not pro action (for anything). give me an example of a mass murderer that the UN approved of taking action against. The UN actually told Saddam that he must comply or else!!
well, he did not comply so what is the or else!!
could it be or else we will do nothing again
Originally posted by ShawnPatrickJoyce
Yeah well, we just follow the "croud" here.
imagine that you are the predident before the war
what would you do
Originally posted by JC
imagine that you are the predident before the war
what would you do
I will improve my typo
Originally posted by JC
Muslims hate us because of what Propaganda that they are told.
The only way around this is for them to meet americans
after the war we will be far better off than we are now
as we are getting rid of a primary source of anti-american Propaganda
BTW, Muslims are not the only group in the world that don't like the US and not all Muslims (or even most) can be counted in that group.
-t
ps - Harald, while I appreciate your views regarding the Muslim world, I think you are generalizing a little to much. The muslim world is not of one mind on ANY topic, this one notwithstanding.
Get thee to Messieurs Baudrillard and mme Sontag. There is no truth, bah, lemme see what I can pull out of my little grab bag of theoretical tricks...
Ahh, there's a little ointment, and a towel, now doesn't that feel good?
Originally posted by Matsu
No, propaganda is the reason why people hate the USA. Propaganda is also the reason why people love the USA.
Get thee to Messieurs Baudrillard and mme Sontag. There is no truth, bah, lemme see what I can pull out of my little grab bag of theoretical tricks...
Ahh, there's a little ointment, and a towel, now doesn't that feel good?
Don't forget Derrida and Foucault.
Cheers
Scott
Originally posted by Harald
In that this war will make more Muslims hate us; that it will cause confusion and chaos in Iraq where extremists will flourish; that it will continue to destroy the international alliances that REALLY keep the peace; that it won't reduce availability of WOMD to terrorists; that innocent people will die; that the only redeeming feature of replacing Saddam with an administration entirely for the benefit of Iraqis clearly will not happen for several years; that it is already inflaming the countries surrounding Iraq; that brave US and UK soldiers will die; that the motives of those prosecuting the war are suspect; that the notion of "pre-emptive war" is a recipie for trouble all over the planet; that it will end up in an absolutely typical plain vanilla WAR and not this precision-guided game by the time we eventually "win" ...
... all of which will lead to a SERIOUSLY SHITTY future for this planet, with terror, counter-terror and death ...
I am absolutely opposed to this war with every fibre of my body.
And I, for one, could not agree more. And for that, already, "Thank you Bush and cohorts". Idiots.
- T.I.