I really hate seeing Apple and Amazon, and to a lesser extent Google (not counting YouTube), being lumped into the same bucket as Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. The worst thing you can accuse Apple, Amazon, and Google of doing (though I don't necessarily agree with it) is causing financial distress on competitive businesses and consumers. Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter, on the other hand, are so called Big Tech platforms whose misdeeds have the potential to destroy societies by serving as platforms for promoting mistrust, anarchy, and terrorism. Very big difference that requires a very different set of remedies.
The generic answer to the question "why would you want to do that" is "because I know something you don't". In this case I can think of a large number of super cool things I could do with my iPhone if Apple did not prevent me from doing them. It is my choice to take the risk, not Apple's and certainly not yours.
I have no problem if you want to make your phone into a table lamp. Just as long as you don't ever represent any problem that comes up as a result of your experimentation, as an Apple problem. How many times have we had to hear that an Apple charger caught fire, when in fact it was an Asian knock off with no safety circuits. You may not be one that has issues, but I can pretty much guarantee that if side loading app stores were allowed (and I hope they are never allowed), some shmuck is is going to get news time by claiming his iPhone allowed his messages to be hacked and his bank account cleaned out.. and 'what is Cook going to do about it?'. Honestly if you want flexibility and miss the wild, wild west of phone OS and apps, why not (like millions of commenters have suggested) get an Android? Some great hardware and an OS/app stores you can hack away on all night long, and you can do it without bothering the rest of us, who are happy with iOS and the app store, just the way it is.
It is not a threat in itself. If Apple, Facebook & co play nicely, nothing will happen.
Except I have to download a maps app, messaging app, email app, a books app, a music app, an AppStore app (how I do that without an AppStore app is beyond me), a weather app, a news app, a stock app and a browser app all before I can use my device.
This is the EU saying, “we don’t know how to compete on equal footing so we will legislate the US to death”. Why the EU thinks they are entitled to 10% of global revenues and not 10% of EU revenues is beyond me. Oh wait. I know why. The EU is so narcissistic they think THEY ARE the world market.
Will we be able to uninstall the AppStore app and install one of our own choosing?
Why would you want to? Just because of ‘principle’? Whether you agree with it or not, Apple’s way of doing things makes some sacrifices for a much better overall user experience.
When I download an app from the App Store I have almost no concern about the security of it. You can say you want the right to install whatever you want on your own device (although the operating system which makes your device work doesn’t belong to you...), but that’s an issue of principle with very little actual benefit, and certainly nothing that will make a big difference in the life of 99.99% of users.
The generic answer to the question "why would you want to do that" is "because I know something you don't". In this case I can think of a large number of super cool things I could do with my iPhone if Apple did not prevent me from doing them. It is my choice to take the risk, not Apple's and certainly not yours.
The flip side is there are options which allow that OUTSIDE the Apple eco-system. From Android the Linux phones, you CAN do these cool things without IMPACTING the 1,000,000,000+ users this design will impact in a negative way.
it is not YOUR choice to take away MY option for better security.
Apple allows Macs to install third party OSs. In my opinion Apple should allow iPhones to install third party OSs (which Apple won't support, just as they don't support Windows or Linux on Macs.) That will get most critics off Apple's back because if you install Android on iOS then you CAN get Fortnite or the Epic App Store or anything you want on your iPhone. You just won't be able to get Apple's App Store on any Android phones, just like you can't get Apple's App Store on Android right now. Who can force Apple to make the Apple App Store available on Android phones.
Would even 1% of customers decide to install Android for iPhones?
Some indications suggest that fines could be as high as 10% of a company's annual global turnover. The regulations could also force companies to divest if they systematically break the rules, though on EU official said that breaking up big tech companies would only become an option if there were "no other remedy" available.
Guess what, EU, companies like Google and Apple would simply quit serving the EU before they would pay a fine equal to 10% of their total gross revenue (or be "broken up"). Sure, they wouldn't like leaving that lucrative market--representing a significant chunk of global GDP, but if the alternative is walking on eggshells with catastrophic penalties?
To slightly exaggerate, would you keep your best customer if they threatened to punch you in the face if you don't comply with their changing whims? Not if you had other options, and these tech firms have other options.
The UK is looking like a good place to do business in this climate.
Edit: to be clear, I'm not predicting that Apple et al. will choose to stop doing business in the EU, but the EU regulators should appreciate that there are limits to what they can demand of these companies in the name of "the customer." The customers won't be too happy if they can't Google, Facebook, or buy an iPhone.
I suppose other countries could simply shut off the “pipes” which serve as communications hubs between their borders and the EU. I think it would be very educational for the EU to be isolated and cut off from the rest of the world.
One example could be the end of Apple highlighting its own product options in an App Store search. Apple and Google could also be forced to allow users to remove apps that come preinstalled on a device.
Seems like no big deal.
Of all the anti-trust talk I hear, the one that is a genuinely big deal is the giant pile of money google pays Apple to be the default search engine on iPhone. That seems like anti-competitive collusion between two companies that jointly control the entire smartphone market.
Of all the anti-trust talk I hear, the one that is a genuinely big deal is the giant pile of money google pays Apple to be the default search engine on iPhone. That seems like anti-competitive collusion between two companies that jointly control the entire smartphone market.
That is where the EU should put their attention to Google and Apple cosy deal that blocks competition in search, another area is allowing Google take up space within the iOS ecosystem in the first place, Google presence of free goodies is kill off some types software. Google has the Android ecosystem they shouldn’t even be allowed on iOS.
Of all the anti-trust talk I hear, the one that is a genuinely big deal is the giant pile of money google pays Apple to be the default search engine on iPhone. That seems like anti-competitive collusion between two companies that jointly control the entire smartphone market.
That is where the EU should put their attention to Google and Apple cosy deal that blocks competition in search, another area is allowing Google take up space within the iOS ecosystem in the first place, Google presence of free goodies is kill off some types software. Google has the Android ecosystem they shouldn’t even be allowed on iOS.
Interesting idea. Are you also saying that Apple should also be forced to cancel its Apple Music App for Android?
Of all the anti-trust talk I hear, the one that is a genuinely big deal is the giant pile of money google pays Apple to be the default search engine on iPhone. That seems like anti-competitive collusion between two companies that jointly control the entire smartphone market.
Google has the Android ecosystem they shouldn’t even be allowed on iOS.
And that would be grounds for anti-competitive investigations.
I'm confused how Apple is taking advantage of its position. Most of Apple's software is free. Eg, FaceTime, Numbers, Pages, Safari, Keynote, iTunes Store, Apple Store, Apple TV, Apple Support, Apple Podcasts, Apple Music, Apple Books, Home, Apple Maps, Apple Shortcuts, Apple Weather, Apple Contacts, iMovie, Mail, Notes, GarageBand, Find My, Wallet, Airport Utility, and many more.
Does the EU want users to be above to remove free apps? Why? How is Apple making money and taking advantage of others by giving apps away for free? I don't get it.
It’s very simple! If you offer an app for free or even bundle an operating system with those apps, you have an unfair advantage over competitors. For the ones that are included with the OS or are promoted on the app store the discoverability is very high. People will download them and use them and not search for alternatives.
Also, Apple doesn’t offer these apps “for free”; they are part of a larger plan, e.g iCloud subscriptions or the fact that if you use Apple for app A, you’ll be inclined to use Apple for app B - aka brand building.
Try to compete with that as a newcomer that has to charge money for the app to survive. It’s unfair.
The above was the reason why Microsoft had to remove internet explorer from Windows years ago and even include a browser download option including most competitor solutions like Firefox. Even the order in which these where displayed mattered and Microsoft had to comply, even when previously their OS was designed around internet explorer being installed.
Apple users where screaming murder when “Micro$oft” was “abusing their monopoly”. Things are MUCH WORSE with Apple today, and look at this forum - users are acting like they are part of Apple’s legal team. It’s ridiculous.
Don’t get me wrong - Apple makes beautiful products, but they have become arrogant and power hungry.
I'm confused how Apple is taking advantage of its position. Most of Apple's software is free. Eg, FaceTime, Numbers, Pages, Safari, Keynote, iTunes Store, Apple Store, Apple TV, Apple Support, Apple Podcasts, Apple Music, Apple Books, Home, Apple Maps, Apple Shortcuts, Apple Weather, Apple Contacts, iMovie, Mail, Notes, GarageBand, Find My, Wallet, Airport Utility, and many more.
Does the EU want users to be above to remove free apps? Why? How is Apple making money and taking advantage of others by giving apps away for free? I don't get it.
It’s very simple! If you offer an app for free or even bundle an operating system with those apps, you have an unfair advantage over competitors. For the ones that are included with the OS or are promoted on the app store the discoverability is very high. People will download them and use them and not search for alternatives.
Also, (2) Apple doesn’t offer these apps “for free”; they are part of a larger plan, e.g iCloud subscriptions or the fact that if you use Apple for app A, you’ll be inclined to use Apple for app B - aka brand building.
Try to compete with that as a newcomer that has to charge money for the app to survive. (3) It’s unfair.
(4) The above was the reason why Microsoft had to remove internet explorer from Windows years ago and even include a browser download option including most competitor solutions like Firefox. Even the order in which these where displayed mattered and Microsoft had to comply, even when previously their OS was designed around internet explorer being installed.
...and look at this forum - (1) users are acting like they are part of Apple’s legal team. It’s ridiculous.
(1) It's ridiculous? Free speech is ridiculous? Giving advice to Apple is ridiculous? Are all of Apple's opponents opposed to free speech, or only you? I welcome zealots like you here; I enjoy arguing with you. You should learn to be welcoming to people with opposing viewpoints.
(2) The apps I mentioned are all free, despite your claim that they are part of a larger evil plan to get users to subscribe. I used most of them for over a decade before subscribing to any "plan." Since when is "brand building" illegal? Should General Motors be broken up because it is building a brand? Can you name one other company that should be stopped from "brand building"? I think not - the only motivating factor in your head is a hatred of Apple.
(3) By your argument, if free apps is unfair, then 90% of the apps on the App Store are breaking the law. And many entire operating systems should be declared illegal because they are free too. Or can you name any other free operating systems that you want to ban? Probably not. The only thing that motivates you is a hatred of Apple.
(4) Your comparison with Microsoft is weak or wrong. Microsoft didn't manufacture PCs.Microsoft was committing crimes that Apple wasn't, like forcing all PC manufacturers to not sell any systems without Windows or lose Microsoft's support. You are attempting to rewrite history to support your position. Apple doesn't offer iOS or macOS to any other manufacturer. Would you like it if they did? Would that cause you to hate Apple even more, or would you support Apple for that?
By the way, you completely ignored my question, which I will repeat for you here: "Does the EU want users to be able to remove free apps?" Do you think Apple should make it possible for users to remove free apps? And do you think Apple should also make it possible to replace iOS with Android? When you respond to someone, it would be constructive to actually answer their questions.
I'm confused how Apple is taking advantage of its position. Most of Apple's software is free. Eg, FaceTime, Numbers, Pages, Safari, Keynote, iTunes Store, Apple Store, Apple TV, Apple Support, Apple Podcasts, Apple Music, Apple Books, Home, Apple Maps, Apple Shortcuts, Apple Weather, Apple Contacts, iMovie, Mail, Notes, GarageBand, Find My, Wallet, Airport Utility, and many more.
Does the EU want users to be above to remove free apps? Why? How is Apple making money and taking advantage of others by giving apps away for free? I don't get it.
It’s very simple! If you offer an app for free or even bundle an operating system with those apps, you have an unfair advantage over competitors. For the ones that are included with the OS or are promoted on the app store the discoverability is very high. People will download them and use them and not search for alternatives.
Also, Apple doesn’t offer these apps “for free”; they are part of a larger plan, e.g iCloud subscriptions or the fact that if you use Apple for app A, you’ll be inclined to use Apple for app B - aka brand building.
Try to compete with that as a newcomer that has to charge money for the app to survive. It’s unfair.
The above was the reason why Microsoft had to remove internet explorer from Windows years ago and even include a browser download option including most competitor solutions like Firefox. Even the order in which these where displayed mattered and Microsoft had to comply, even when previously their OS was designed around internet explorer being installed.
Apple users where screaming murder when “Micro$oft” was “abusing their monopoly”. Things are MUCH WORSE with Apple today, and look at this forum - users are acting like they are part of Apple’s legal team. It’s ridiculous.
Don’t get me wrong - Apple makes beautiful products, but they have become arrogant and power hungry.
As 22july pointed out, but I’ll also add...
Microsoft’s sin with IE was entrenching it so deeply into Windows that it was impossible to use any other browser. MS proactively broke and blocked every other browser. Apple is not doing that with iOS. Even before Apple recently provided the option to use another browser as default, they still weren’t proactively blocking and breaking other browsers. Now that they offer setting others as defaults, even more so are they a long way from what MS did with IE.
And likewise, MS’s dealings with its hardware “partners” refusing them Windows if they sold anything other than Windows PCs was way out of line. To my knowledge Apple has never done anything like this. Feel free to correct me if you’re aware of anything I think that category that I’m most aware of.
Will we be able to uninstall the AppStore app and install one of our own choosing?
Why would you want to? Just because of ‘principle’? Whether you agree with it or not, Apple’s way of doing things makes some sacrifices for a much better overall user experience.
When I download an app from the App Store I have almost no concern about the security of it. You can say you want the right to install whatever you want on your own device (although the operating system which makes your device work doesn’t belong to you...), but that’s an issue of principle with very little actual benefit, and certainly nothing that will make a big difference in the life of 99.99% of users.
The generic answer to the question "why would you want to do that" is "because I know something you don't".
And what is it that you know that we don’t?
In this case I can think of a large number of super cool things I could do with my iPhone if Apple did not prevent me from doing them.
Ok. Like what? What do you want to do with an iPhone that Apple is preventing you from doing, that you can’t do with some other device just as well?
It is my choice to take the risk, not Apple's and certainly not yours.
Why? Because it’s your iPhone? Ok. But it’s not your OS or firmware or security enclave or any of the other Apple owned IP inside the iPhone.
Sure, maybe Apple can’t and shouldn’t stop you using your iPhone as a table lamp (per Teejay), fireworks launcher, boat anchor, shoehorn, or anything else, as long as you don’t use Apple’s IP any way they aren’t ok with you using it.
But jokes and snark aside, in all seriousness, let’s have a genuine discussion about this. Can you tell us some of the super cool things you want to do with your iPhone that Apple won’t let you. I pull the “it’s your iPhone but it’s Apple’s OS etc” line (because it’s true), but I’m genuinely interested to see if there’s anything you want to do with your iPhone, that isn’t using Apple’s IP against their wishes, that they’re blocking you from doing.
If companies don't like the rules, they are free to do business in a different market. With just 6.4% of the world's population, the EU is nowhere near monopoly status.
Or does that argument only apply when it's a corporation setting the rules?
Comments
I have no problem if you want to make your phone into a table lamp. Just as long as you don't ever represent any problem that comes up as a result of your experimentation, as an Apple problem. How many times have we had to hear that an Apple charger caught fire, when in fact it was an Asian knock off with no safety circuits. You may not be one that has issues, but I can pretty much guarantee that if side loading app stores were allowed (and I hope they are never allowed), some shmuck is is going to get news time by claiming his iPhone allowed his messages to be hacked and his bank account cleaned out.. and 'what is Cook going to do about it?'. Honestly if you want flexibility and miss the wild, wild west of phone OS and apps, why not (like millions of commenters have suggested) get an Android? Some great hardware and an OS/app stores you can hack away on all night long, and you can do it without bothering the rest of us, who are happy with iOS and the app store, just the way it is.
This is the EU saying, “we don’t know how to compete on equal footing so we will legislate the US to death”. Why the EU thinks they are entitled to 10% of global revenues and not 10% of EU revenues is beyond me. Oh wait. I know why. The EU is so narcissistic they think THEY ARE the world market.
it is not YOUR choice to take away MY option for better security.
Would even 1% of customers decide to install Android for iPhones?
Of all the anti-trust talk I hear, the one that is a genuinely big deal is the giant pile of money google pays Apple to be the default search engine on iPhone. That seems like anti-competitive collusion between two companies that jointly control the entire smartphone market.
https://support.apple.com/en-ca/HT205365 <--
And are you saying that Microsoft shouldn't be allowed to have their Office apps on iOS because Microsoft has Windows for ARM?
I'm not arguing with you, I'm just asking for clarification.
Try to compete with that as a newcomer that has to charge money for the app to survive. It’s unfair.
The above was the reason why Microsoft had to remove internet explorer from Windows years ago and even include a browser download option including most competitor solutions like Firefox. Even the order in which these where displayed mattered and Microsoft had to comply, even when previously their OS was designed around internet explorer being installed.
Apple users where screaming murder when “Micro$oft” was “abusing their monopoly”. Things are MUCH WORSE with Apple today, and look at this forum - users are acting like they are part of Apple’s legal team. It’s ridiculous.
Don’t get me wrong - Apple makes beautiful products, but they have become arrogant and power hungry.
(2) The apps I mentioned are all free, despite your claim that they are part of a larger evil plan to get users to subscribe. I used most of them for over a decade before subscribing to any "plan." Since when is "brand building" illegal? Should General Motors be broken up because it is building a brand? Can you name one other company that should be stopped from "brand building"? I think not - the only motivating factor in your head is a hatred of Apple.
(3) By your argument, if free apps is unfair, then 90% of the apps on the App Store are breaking the law. And many entire operating systems should be declared illegal because they are free too. Or can you name any other free operating systems that you want to ban? Probably not. The only thing that motivates you is a hatred of Apple.
(4) Your comparison with Microsoft is weak or wrong. Microsoft didn't manufacture PCs. Microsoft was committing crimes that Apple wasn't, like forcing all PC manufacturers to not sell any systems without Windows or lose Microsoft's support. You are attempting to rewrite history to support your position. Apple doesn't offer iOS or macOS to any other manufacturer. Would you like it if they did? Would that cause you to hate Apple even more, or would you support Apple for that?
By the way, you completely ignored my question, which I will repeat for you here: "Does the EU want users to be able to remove free apps?" Do you think Apple should make it possible for users to remove free apps? And do you think Apple should also make it possible to replace iOS with Android? When you respond to someone, it would be constructive to actually answer their questions.
Microsoft’s sin with IE was entrenching it so deeply into Windows that it was impossible to use any other browser. MS proactively broke and blocked every other browser. Apple is not doing that with iOS. Even before Apple recently provided the option to use another browser as default, they still weren’t proactively blocking and breaking other browsers. Now that they offer setting others as defaults, even more so are they a long way from what MS did with IE.
And likewise, MS’s dealings with its hardware “partners” refusing them Windows if they sold anything other than Windows PCs was way out of line. To my knowledge Apple has never done anything like this. Feel free to correct me if you’re aware of anything I think that category that I’m most aware of.
But jokes and snark aside, in all seriousness, let’s have a genuine discussion about this. Can you tell us some of the super cool things you want to do with your iPhone that Apple won’t let you. I pull the “it’s your iPhone but it’s Apple’s OS etc” line (because it’s true), but I’m genuinely interested to see if there’s anything you want to do with your iPhone, that isn’t using Apple’s IP against their wishes, that they’re blocking you from doing.
If companies don't like the rules, they are free to do business in a different market. With just 6.4% of the world's population, the EU is nowhere near monopoly status.
Or does that argument only apply when it's a corporation setting the rules?