North Dakota Senate debates breaking Apple's App Store monopoly

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  • Reply 41 of 44
    davidwdavidw Posts: 1,210member
    danvm said:
    davidw said:
    danvm said:
    davidw said:
    danvm said:
    MplsP said:
    JWSC said:
    Putting aside the merits of this legislation, questionable though they may be, I’m not sure this can be done at the state level.  Interstate commerce remains the realm of the federal Government.

    It would be enlightening to know who is behind this legislative push.  As Deepthroat would have said, “Follow the money.”
    My thoughts exactly. The other question is why an xbox console is any different from a phone, other than some legislator got a campaign donation from Microsoft.
    There are a few differences.  For example, a console is not a general purpose device, as an iPhone / iPad.  Second, as today, console users are not forced to use the app store, neither the app store payment system.  They can purchase a physical or digital game from a retailer, like Amazon or Walmart.
    As of today, with a Live account, an X-Box One game console has a browser and can surf the internet. A X-Box One can send and receive eMail. An X-box One can control Smart home devices like a thermostat and cameras. An X-Box One can listen to PodCast. And X-Box One can  access and search You Tube. One can use Skype and video chat, for free. Add a keyboard and mouse to an X-Box One and it will support Office 365 and Zoom. Since the X-Box 360, with a Live account, one can buy and rent movies and stream it to a TV.  One can stream Spotify or Pandora with an X-Box. Even while playing a game. 
    The list of things you mention still very limited compared to a general purpose device as an iPad / iPhone.  A gaming console is for entertainment purposes, that's the reason you see movies and music / podcast apps in their stores.  And I don't think that you can control smart home devices anymore in the Xbox Series X/S, since there is no support for the Kinect camera, and it was never an option in the PS5, neither the Switch.  
    You must be thinking of the game consoles that only plays games on a cartridge or disc. That must have been over 10 years ago.  With an online account, a game console is much, much more than for only playing games. They are as "general purpose" as an iiPad.  And all the apps that allows an X-Box to be more of a general purpose device can only be downloaded through Microsoft. 
    As today, I haven't seen photo editing apps, developer tools, CAD apps, financial apps, MDM / management tools and other type of apps I'm seeing in my iPad.  Could it be it's because developers and customers only expect games and entertainment apps in their console?  No, consoles aren't as general purpose as iPads.  
    Don't fall for Epic B.S. that game consoles are vastly different than mobile devices because they are only for playing games and therefore it's okay for Epic to pay them the 30% "tax", for access to game consoles customers and not Apple for access to their iDevice customers. Sweeney is clueless. Don't be like Sweeney.  He thinks it only cost Apple 2-3% to process CC payments through iTunes and it's the only thing the 30% "tax" pays for. 

    https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/18991370.get-zoom-office-xbox-one-ps4/

    https://www.windowscentral.com/home-remote-xbox-one

    It doesn't matter if X-Box users are not forced to use the Microsoft Store in their X-Box to get contents into it, all contents for an X-Box must go through Microsoft and Microsoft will get paid for it. What? You think a developer can go to Walmart or Amazon and ask them to sell and distribute their X-Box software that is on a physical disc and they are able to bypass paying Microsoft and without a developer license from Microsoft? Get Real. 
    My comment has no relation with the issue Epic has with Apple.   BTW, I don't agree with what Epic did, and since I'm not a developer I don't care about the 30% / 15% fees from the App Store.  If developers and Apple are happy with that, why would be an issue for me?  My comment was pointing out that consoles and iPhone / iPad are different devices, specially from a customer / gamer POV, since they are not forced to use an app store to download their games.  
    You're not looking hard enough. 

    https://thewincentral.com/photos-app-available-xbox/

    https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/free-cad-3d-modeling-wuweido/9pnnm0d5s0qf?activetab=pivot:overviewtab

    And your iPad is no less limited than a Mac when comparing a game console limits to an iPad. I can list many more software programs available on a Mac or PC than you can apps on your iPad, that are not on a game console. There's also a practicality issue like why would a game console needs apps that uses GPS and why they don't have apps pertaining to business networking functions.  An X-Box is not mobile. And just because there no apps for it on a game console, many functions of apps on an iPad can be done if there's internet access. And the X-Box One has internet access. And just because there's no apps for it on a game console, it doesn't mean that the game console can not be used for those missing apps. Often, it's just a matter of practicality. An remember, when the iPad was first introduce, it was considered nothing but a portable device use for entertainment and personal consumption, not for productivity, like it can be now. 

    Even if I don't play games on my iPad. I know many people whose young kids mainly only use their iPads to play games. They couldn't care less about photo editing apps or CAD on their iPads or Google map. To them, their iPad is a portable game console. Plus there's no disc drive on an iDevice of them to install games using a physical disc.

    The bottom line is that an X-Box is much more than just a device for playing games on. And Microsoft don't want people to think that the X-Box is just for games and doing their best to add more "general purpose" functions on to an X-Box. The X-Box can actually replace a full blown computer as the hub of a home media center. Something an iPad can never do. Though a Mac Mini is often uses as a home media center, the Mac Mini is a general purpose computer that is more comparable to a game console, than is an iPad. 

    https://www.howtogeek.com/255016/how-to-play-video-and-music-files-on-your-xbox-one/
    If you noticed, I mentioned photo editing apps.  And the link you posted mentions that "Albums are created for you automatically, and you can edit them to add a personal touch (PC only)."  And I also tried with my own Xbox, and no, you cannot edit photos with that app.  And regarding the CAD app you posted, it's an UWP app, so it can run in every MS platform and device, like HoloLens and Surface Hub.  Does it means that those are general purpose device because it has a cheap CAD app and a browser?  I don't think so.  When you go to the Xbox App store, there are two categories, Entertainment Apps and Apps for Gamers.  Compare that to the iPhone App store that has 27 categories.  Customers and developers expect a console to be used as a gaming and entertainment device.  And as today I haven't seen an Xbox ad that's not related to gaming.  So MS is selling the Xbox as a gaming/entertainment device, not as a general purpose device.  Very different from an iPhone / iPad.  
    With the X-box One, all games must be downloaded on to the hard drive, in order to play. Even the ones on a physical disc. With many disc sold  for the X-B0x One at retailers, all that is on the disc is the key and the disc must be in the player when playing the game, after downloading it from the Microsoft Store into the X-Box One HD. There's also a version of the X-Box one that don't come with a disc player. All games on those must be downloaded from the Microsoft Store. 

    It's an illusion, if one thinks that just because on can buy a physical disc for games on an X-Box, that Microsoft do not have a monopoly on how games can be installed into an X-Box. And that somehow, being able to make a physical disc game for an X-Box is more profitable for developers, than to just pay Microsoft the 30% and have it available in the Microsoft Store. What these developers really want is to be able to sell downloadable games that bypasses the retail stores cut and the 30% "tax' that Apple, Microsoft and Sony charges, to access the customers on their platforms. Thus being able to make more profit selling their software on other peoples platform, than the owners that created, maintains and updates those platforms, themselves. How "entitled" is that kind of thinking?   
    Again, consoles don't force you to buy games from their app store.  From a developer POV, it may not make a difference, since they have to pay the fee to MS, Sony and Nintendo.  But from a customer POV, there are differences.  With a console I can choose to purchase digital or physical.  I can choose to purchase in physical or digital stores like Walmart, GameStop, Best Buy or Amazon.  And can even pay cash in physical store.  Plus I can sell used physical games.  None of that can be done with Apple device.  So definitely there are differences between gaming consoles and Apple devices.  
    https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2019/12/13/21020149/xbox-series-x-pc-specs-analysis

    Is that "general purpose" enough for you? Like many people here and I, keep repeating, just because you can't find all the software you want to run with a game console, like you can with an iPad, it doesn't make the game console any less of a "general purpose" device, than any other computer devices now of days. Todays X-Box has a special version of Windows 10 in it. And the power of the CPU/GPU rivals that of most medium price laptop and PC. And the reason why you don't find as many "general purpose" apps on an X-Box as you do on a iPad, is a matter of practicality, not ability. What senior executive want an X-Box on their desk to keep track of their employees and check their email? But maybe the Microsoft executive in charge of X-Box sales might. 

    You can only choose to buy a physical media because developers are willing to sell their software on a physical media. An iDevice do not have a physical drive of any sort. So how are iOS developers going to get their software installed on to a device that don't have a physical media drive? Demand that Apple provide a media drive on their iDevices? Just so that their customers can choose to buy their software from a retailer and pay in cash? And what developer is going to provide a physical media of their app that they sell for the likes of $1.99. Just so that a retailer can take a cut of that $1.99.  75% of the apps for mobile devices are free. There's no reason for developers to not have them only available in the Apple App or Google Play stores.  

    Gee, maybe the X-Box could be more of a "general purpose" device, if Microsoft allowed the downloading of apps off the internet? You think?

    One of the main reasons why game consoles still have disc drives is to play over a decade of legacy games that owners still have on a disc. This so that they can get rid of their old players. But disc drives are slowly going away with the new versions of game consoles as are physical disc of games. Streaming is the new format. 

    https://www.startribune.com/is-it-time-to-abandon-physical-video-games-and-go-digital-only/573465571/

    If you want more choices, then choose an Android device. You don't have to choose what 20% of mobile device users uses. Choose what 75% of mobile users uses, an Android device. They can't all be wrong. Why limit your choices with your own choice to use an iDevice? If the car you want don't have CarPlay, you can't demand the dealer to install CarPlay into it. You have to look for a car with CarPlay. No one is forcing you to buy a car without CarPlay, no matter how much you like the car. Or you can remove the factory installed radio and install one with CarPlay. You might not get all the functions of a factory installed CarPlay that you would like to have and might void part of your warranty but it might be what you need. Like you can choose to jailbreak your iDevice, to download from a third party app store or the internet. If I want more third party choices in buying parts for my car or lower maintenance cost, I would choose to buy a Honda or Toyota, not a BMW or Mercedes. 

    People that choose to use an iDevice have choices, if they want to have a choice as to where they can download their apps from. They can choose to use from thousands of Android devices. The choice to not have to pay Apple for the apps installed on to an iDevice, being able to buy a physical media to install apps on to an iDevice or the choice to in pay cash for apps, are not choices that Apple has to provide you with. As long as iDevices are not a monopoly in their market. BTW- one can load an iTunes account with gift cards, that were paid for with cash, to pay for apps from the Apple App Store. Parents with kids do this all the time with their kids iTunes account. Plus iTunes gift cards are often discounted in places. Costco, from time to time, have them for 20% off face value. Amazon also discount iTunes gift cards, from time to time.  

    edited February 11 watto_cobra
  • Reply 42 of 44
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,144member
    davidw said:
    danvm said:
    davidw said:
    danvm said:
    davidw said:
    danvm said:
    MplsP said:
    JWSC said:
    Putting aside the merits of this legislation, questionable though they may be, I’m not sure this can be done at the state level.  Interstate commerce remains the realm of the federal Government.

    It would be enlightening to know who is behind this legislative push.  As Deepthroat would have said, “Follow the money.”
    My thoughts exactly. The other question is why an xbox console is any different from a phone, other than some legislator got a campaign donation from Microsoft.
    There are a few differences.  For example, a console is not a general purpose device, as an iPhone / iPad.  Second, as today, console users are not forced to use the app store, neither the app store payment system.  They can purchase a physical or digital game from a retailer, like Amazon or Walmart.
    As of today, with a Live account, an X-Box One game console has a browser and can surf the internet. A X-Box One can send and receive eMail. An X-box One can control Smart home devices like a thermostat and cameras. An X-Box One can listen to PodCast. And X-Box One can  access and search You Tube. One can use Skype and video chat, for free. Add a keyboard and mouse to an X-Box One and it will support Office 365 and Zoom. Since the X-Box 360, with a Live account, one can buy and rent movies and stream it to a TV.  One can stream Spotify or Pandora with an X-Box. Even while playing a game. 
    The list of things you mention still very limited compared to a general purpose device as an iPad / iPhone.  A gaming console is for entertainment purposes, that's the reason you see movies and music / podcast apps in their stores.  And I don't think that you can control smart home devices anymore in the Xbox Series X/S, since there is no support for the Kinect camera, and it was never an option in the PS5, neither the Switch.  
    You must be thinking of the game consoles that only plays games on a cartridge or disc. That must have been over 10 years ago.  With an online account, a game console is much, much more than for only playing games. They are as "general purpose" as an iiPad.  And all the apps that allows an X-Box to be more of a general purpose device can only be downloaded through Microsoft. 
    As today, I haven't seen photo editing apps, developer tools, CAD apps, financial apps, MDM / management tools and other type of apps I'm seeing in my iPad.  Could it be it's because developers and customers only expect games and entertainment apps in their console?  No, consoles aren't as general purpose as iPads.  
    Don't fall for Epic B.S. that game consoles are vastly different than mobile devices because they are only for playing games and therefore it's okay for Epic to pay them the 30% "tax", for access to game consoles customers and not Apple for access to their iDevice customers. Sweeney is clueless. Don't be like Sweeney.  He thinks it only cost Apple 2-3% to process CC payments through iTunes and it's the only thing the 30% "tax" pays for. 

    https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/18991370.get-zoom-office-xbox-one-ps4/

    https://www.windowscentral.com/home-remote-xbox-one

    It doesn't matter if X-Box users are not forced to use the Microsoft Store in their X-Box to get contents into it, all contents for an X-Box must go through Microsoft and Microsoft will get paid for it. What? You think a developer can go to Walmart or Amazon and ask them to sell and distribute their X-Box software that is on a physical disc and they are able to bypass paying Microsoft and without a developer license from Microsoft? Get Real. 
    My comment has no relation with the issue Epic has with Apple.   BTW, I don't agree with what Epic did, and since I'm not a developer I don't care about the 30% / 15% fees from the App Store.  If developers and Apple are happy with that, why would be an issue for me?  My comment was pointing out that consoles and iPhone / iPad are different devices, specially from a customer / gamer POV, since they are not forced to use an app store to download their games.  
    You're not looking hard enough. 

    https://thewincentral.com/photos-app-available-xbox/

    https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/free-cad-3d-modeling-wuweido/9pnnm0d5s0qf?activetab=pivot:overviewtab

    And your iPad is no less limited than a Mac when comparing a game console limits to an iPad. I can list many more software programs available on a Mac or PC than you can apps on your iPad, that are not on a game console. There's also a practicality issue like why would a game console needs apps that uses GPS and why they don't have apps pertaining to business networking functions.  An X-Box is not mobile. And just because there no apps for it on a game console, many functions of apps on an iPad can be done if there's internet access. And the X-Box One has internet access. And just because there's no apps for it on a game console, it doesn't mean that the game console can not be used for those missing apps. Often, it's just a matter of practicality. An remember, when the iPad was first introduce, it was considered nothing but a portable device use for entertainment and personal consumption, not for productivity, like it can be now. 

    Even if I don't play games on my iPad. I know many people whose young kids mainly only use their iPads to play games. They couldn't care less about photo editing apps or CAD on their iPads or Google map. To them, their iPad is a portable game console. Plus there's no disc drive on an iDevice of them to install games using a physical disc.

    The bottom line is that an X-Box is much more than just a device for playing games on. And Microsoft don't want people to think that the X-Box is just for games and doing their best to add more "general purpose" functions on to an X-Box. The X-Box can actually replace a full blown computer as the hub of a home media center. Something an iPad can never do. Though a Mac Mini is often uses as a home media center, the Mac Mini is a general purpose computer that is more comparable to a game console, than is an iPad. 

    https://www.howtogeek.com/255016/how-to-play-video-and-music-files-on-your-xbox-one/
    If you noticed, I mentioned photo editing apps.  And the link you posted mentions that "Albums are created for you automatically, and you can edit them to add a personal touch (PC only)."  And I also tried with my own Xbox, and no, you cannot edit photos with that app.  And regarding the CAD app you posted, it's an UWP app, so it can run in every MS platform and device, like HoloLens and Surface Hub.  Does it means that those are general purpose device because it has a cheap CAD app and a browser?  I don't think so.  When you go to the Xbox App store, there are two categories, Entertainment Apps and Apps for Gamers.  Compare that to the iPhone App store that has 27 categories.  Customers and developers expect a console to be used as a gaming and entertainment device.  And as today I haven't seen an Xbox ad that's not related to gaming.  So MS is selling the Xbox as a gaming/entertainment device, not as a general purpose device.  Very different from an iPhone / iPad.  
    With the X-box One, all games must be downloaded on to the hard drive, in order to play. Even the ones on a physical disc. With many disc sold  for the X-B0x One at retailers, all that is on the disc is the key and the disc must be in the player when playing the game, after downloading it from the Microsoft Store into the X-Box One HD. There's also a version of the X-Box one that don't come with a disc player. All games on those must be downloaded from the Microsoft Store. 

    It's an illusion, if one thinks that just because on can buy a physical disc for games on an X-Box, that Microsoft do not have a monopoly on how games can be installed into an X-Box. And that somehow, being able to make a physical disc game for an X-Box is more profitable for developers, than to just pay Microsoft the 30% and have it available in the Microsoft Store. What these developers really want is to be able to sell downloadable games that bypasses the retail stores cut and the 30% "tax' that Apple, Microsoft and Sony charges, to access the customers on their platforms. Thus being able to make more profit selling their software on other peoples platform, than the owners that created, maintains and updates those platforms, themselves. How "entitled" is that kind of thinking?   
    Again, consoles don't force you to buy games from their app store.  From a developer POV, it may not make a difference, since they have to pay the fee to MS, Sony and Nintendo.  But from a customer POV, there are differences.  With a console I can choose to purchase digital or physical.  I can choose to purchase in physical or digital stores like Walmart, GameStop, Best Buy or Amazon.  And can even pay cash in physical store.  Plus I can sell used physical games.  None of that can be done with Apple device.  So definitely there are differences between gaming consoles and Apple devices.  
    https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2019/12/13/21020149/xbox-series-x-pc-specs-analysis

    Is that "general purpose" enough for you? Like many people here and I, keep repeating, just because you can't find all the software you want to run with a game console, like you can with an iPad, it doesn't make the game console any less of a "general purpose" device, than any other computer devices now of days. Todays X-Box has a special version of Windows 10 in it. And the power of the CPU/GPU rivals that of most medium price laptop and PC. And the reason why you don't find as many "general purpose" apps on an X-Box as you do on a iPad, is a matter of practicality, not ability. What senior executive want an X-Box on their desk to keep track of their employees and check their email? But maybe the Microsoft executive in charge of X-Box sales might. 
    I read the article you posted, and all it talks is about gaming.  I see zero mention of the Xbox being used for developing games, CAD, photo editing or management tools for it.  So it looks like still a gaming device.  
    You can only choose to buy a physical media because developers are willing to sell their software on a physical media. An iDevice do not have a physical drive of any sort. So how are iOS developers going to get their software installed on to a device that don't have a physical media drive? Demand that Apple provide a media drive on their iDevices? Just so that their customers can choose to buy their software from a retailer and pay in cash? And what developer is going to provide a physical media of their app that they sell for the likes of $1.99. Just so that a retailer can take a cut of that $1.99.  75% of the apps for mobile devices are free. There's no reason for developers to not have them only available in the Apple App or Google Play stores.  

    Gee, maybe the X-Box could be more of a "general purpose" device, if Microsoft allowed the downloading of apps off the internet? You think?

    One of the main reasons why game consoles still have disc drives is to play over a decade of legacy games that owners still have on a disc. This so that they can get rid of their old players. But disc drives are slowly going away with the new versions of game consoles as are physical disc of games. Streaming is the new format. 

    https://www.startribune.com/is-it-time-to-abandon-physical-video-games-and-go-digital-only/573465571/
    I read that developers can sideload apps without the digital store.  So technically Apple could allow all users to sideload apps, since it's just a limitation Apple has for normal users.  BTW, I prefer what Apple do by forcing users to download from the App Store.  But technically is possible to install apps without the store.  And I agree with you that developers should use the App Stores.  But this has no relation to my first comment, the difference between gaming consoles and Apple devices.  And like you said, Apple devices don't have physical drives, so you are forced to use an App Store, while with gaming consoles you can purchase physical media from a retailer.  
    If you want more choices, then choose an Android device. You don't have to choose what 20% of mobile device users uses. Choose what 75% of mobile users uses, an Android device. They can't all be wrong. Why limit your choices with your own choice to use an iDevice? If the car you want don't have CarPlay, you can't demand the dealer to install CarPlay into it. You have to look for a car with CarPlay. No one is forcing you to buy a car without CarPlay, no matter how much you like the car. Or you can remove the factory installed radio and install one with CarPlay. You might not get all the functions of a factory installed CarPlay that you would like to have and might void part of your warranty but it might be what you need. Like you can choose to jailbreak your iDevice, to download from a third party app store or the internet. If I want more third party choices in buying parts for my car or lower maintenance cost, I would choose to buy a Honda or Toyota, not a BMW or Mercedes. 

    People that choose to use an iDevice have choices, if they want to have a choice as to where they can download their apps from. They can choose to use from thousands of Android devices. The choice to not have to pay Apple for the apps installed on to an iDevice, being able to buy a physical media to install apps on to an iDevice or the choice to in pay cash for apps, are not choices that Apple has to provide you with. As long as iDevices are not a monopoly in their market. BTW- one can load an iTunes account with gift cards, that were paid for with cash, to pay for apps from the Apple App Store. Parents with kids do this all the time with their kids iTunes account. Plus iTunes gift cards are often discounted in places. Costco, from time to time, have them for 20% off face value. Amazon also discount iTunes gift cards, from time to time.  
     Why you bring CarPlay, Android or Apple monopoly to the conversation?  My comments respond to someone who asked how consoles and Apple devices are different, and I just point out a difference.  What CarPlay, Android and Apple monopoly has to do with it?
    edited February 11
  • Reply 43 of 44
    You want viruses and malware? Because this is how you get viruses and malware.

    The Apple App Store is basically a shopping mall. They provide a nice, safe environment for people to shop in, and because they have strict rules on what kinds of apps they host, they do all the heavy lifting with regard to compatibility, safety and security for your devices. Just a like a shopping mall will provide a safe, pleasant environment for you to do your shopping. Shop keepers know what they're getting into when they open a shop in the mall, just as customers can have reasonable expectations of a certain kind of service from the stores where they shop in the mall. In exchange, the mall charges the shops to rent space for their stores.
    By contrast, you start downloading whatever you want off of someone's website, you have no assurances that they're not gonna surreptitiously install some malware or spyware, or there might just be some bug that will brick your device. Sure, you get more "freedom", and the vendor doesn't have to pay a "rental fee" to Apple to host their wares, but at the same time, you are exposed to much greater risk.

    I'm happy with my walled garden/shopping mall experience.
    Bombdoewatto_cobra
  • Reply 44 of 44

    As I said before: let them do it. Let Apple allow as many stores as people like. Just:
    - create a meta-Store not unlike the TV app so you browse in only one location (user centricity)
    - second: set rules that any other store must conduct support, updates, quality assurance, uptime and speed of servers ensure compliance with guidelines etc  such that there is no difference in terms of quality and experience between apps from different stores
    - they must proof these criteria by regular audits  
    - cross charge Apple’s overhead connected to handling multiple stores,

    Then let the wallets decide. 

    I need clarification on your idea. How is Apple going to fund all the additional work you are suggesting that Apple undertake here? Where will the money come from for all the additional work by Apple? Would Apple have to raise the prices of iPhones? And are you suggesting that Apple itself would have the ability to punish third party app stores who violate the rules? What would the punishments consist of? Could Apple remove apps form the third party app stores? Could Apple remove the third party app stores? There are so many questions that your proposal doesn't address.
    As I wrote: cross charge this to the third party app stores. Not the customer. 

    And yes, like they do today: if the third party App Store would allow e.g. non compliant apps, Apple should IMO have the right to sanction the third party App Store. Hence, the audits (paid individually including Apples own store). 

    I never said to have given all details and answers. But I don’t see why this approach should not work in general. 
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