Return of the Mac: How Apple Silicon will herald a new era at WWDC 2021

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 46
    mcdavemcdave Posts: 1,830member
    Finally an article that clearly points out the unfortunate limitations of the M1.  Everyone is so blinded in tunnel vision of 3x performance that they are completely missing out on the fact that the M1 is a low-end base model CPU with less features than the models it replaced.  

    It was not long ago that all the commenters were complaining of soldered memory, soldered storage, no upgrades, etc.  All Apple has to do is slap an Apple logo on a pig and the fanatics think it is the best thing in the world.  It wasn't long ago that people were complaining about 16GB RAM in the MacBooks and then they cheered when Apple bumped it up to 32GB and 64GB.  Now suddenly they are all happy that the M1 is capped at 16GB?  Suddenly they are excited that integrated graphics in the M1 are faster than the integrated graphics on the intel Macs, but still much slower than discrete graphics?  WTF?  

    Could you imagine if Apple introduced an iMac with only 16GB of RAM (instead of 128GB), 2TB of storage (instead of 8TB), two USB-C (instead of 4 USB/2 Thunderbolt), and integrated graphics driving a 27+" 5K display?  It would be a joke!  Or a Mac Pro with those specs?  Suddenly people think a 16GB M1 can do anything?  Not when you throw a huge graphics file at it.  Let's not forget about the excessive read/writes that is occurring in the M1 Macs, wearing out the flash storage prematurely.
    What is wrong with you? Why are you falsely claiming that Apple is replacing top of the range products with inferior machines? The M1 models aren’t slower than any Intel Mac Mini, any Intel MacBook Air or any 13” Intel MacBook Pro. The M1 MBP does match the performance of the low-end dGPU (5300M) in the 16” MBP whilst kicking any CPU butt.

    If you don’t get ARC memory management, stop talking. You sound like the people who can’t differentiate between core-count/GHz and actual performance. The memory pressure in the 16GB M1 is mostly lower than a 32GB Intel-based product.

    The SSD write issues have been debunked. As you’re a sucker for Kool-Aid, Cinebench is an invalid benchmark as it uses Intel’s Embree renderer which, oddly, is only optimised for x86 SIMD (SSE4/AVX2 - not AVX512 as it down-clocks quickly under load) and not the M1’s custom SIMD units beyond standard NEON.
    mwhitecg27Rayz2016tenthousandthingsjony0watto_cobraspock1234Detnator
  • Reply 22 of 46
    If you want to know about M2 new capabilities I would suggest looking at Arm v9 new architecture. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 23 of 46
    Dave Kap said:
    This is a great article and reminds me of DED.  Speaking of DED, can anybody tell me if he is ok and  coming back to Apple Insider?
    No idea, but it is nice to Neil back!
    nhugheswatto_cobra
  • Reply 24 of 46
    Finally an article that clearly points out the unfortunate limitations of the M1.  Everyone is so blinded in tunnel vision of 3x performance that they are completely missing out on the fact that the M1 is a low-end base model CPU with less features than the models it replaced.  

    It was not long ago that all the commenters were complaining of soldered memory, soldered storage, no upgrades, etc.  All Apple has to do is slap an Apple logo on a pig and the fanatics think it is the best thing in the world.  It wasn't long ago that people were complaining about 16GB RAM in the MacBooks and then they cheered when Apple bumped it up to 32GB and 64GB.  Now suddenly they are all happy that the M1 is capped at 16GB?  Suddenly they are excited that integrated graphics in the M1 are faster than the integrated graphics on the intel Macs, but still much slower than discrete graphics?  WTF?  

    Could you imagine if Apple introduced an iMac with only 16GB of RAM (instead of 128GB), 2TB of storage (instead of 8TB), two USB-C (instead of 4 USB/2 Thunderbolt), and integrated graphics driving a 27+" 5K display?  It would be a joke!  Or a Mac Pro with those specs?  Suddenly people think a 16GB M1 can do anything?  Not when you throw a huge graphics file at it.  Let's not forget about the excessive read/writes that is occurring in the M1 Macs, wearing out the flash storage prematurely.

    Hopefully the next iMacs have specs that meet or exceed the current 2020 models.  There is a big reason why Apple is still selling the Intel models because they have more features than the M1 models.  Notice how fast M1 Macs appeared in the refurb store?  High customer returns triggered that.  Unfortunate that Apple intends to solder everything to the board.  No more replacing bad memory DIMMs or swapping out a bad drive.  Now when that goes bad outside of the warranty, the Mac will end up in the trash because replacing the motherboard is an expensive repair and people will throw it away and buy a new Mac.  I have high hopes for the iMac and MacBook Pro 16", but the M1 was too limiting in features to consider buying.
    This is a very odd comment considering your previous comment. First mistake is saying everyone was complaining about soldered RAM, etc. then you bash people for liking the M1s. If it doesn’t meet your needs, then wait as you pointed out these are meant to be low end and not replace high end computers for the reasons you point out. These M1s replaced Intel models with similar ram and hard drive specs. I’ve pointed out that if you need 1.5 TB of ram, your workflow will not fit in these M1 Macs. That said, the performance of these M1 Macs are amazing. This isn’t drinking punch, nor because of the Apple brand. For a good deal of people, these M1 Macs are excellent, including me. Yes even professionals are enjoying these Macs. 

    Having referb computers doesn’t mean that there were a high amount of returns, just that there was enough returns, soon to provide such Macs. It might be they couldn’t get the configuration soon enough for them, so they bought a lower end model. Only low end configurations were in stores. Our non customized MacBook Pro was able to be picked up the same day, vs my customized Mac Mini had to wait weeks. 
    watto_cobraDetnator
  • Reply 25 of 46
    thedbathedba Posts: 667member
    Finally an article that clearly points out the unfortunate limitations of the M1.  Everyone is so blinded in tunnel vision of 3x performance that they are completely missing out on the fact that the M1 is a low-end base model CPU with less features than the models it replaced.  

    It was not long ago that all the commenters were complaining of soldered memory, soldered storage, no upgrades, etc.  All Apple has to do is slap an Apple logo on a pig and the fanatics think it is the best thing in the world.  It wasn't long ago that people were complaining about 16GB RAM in the MacBooks and then they cheered when Apple bumped it up to 32GB and 64GB.  Now suddenly they are all happy that the M1 is capped at 16GB?  Suddenly they are excited that integrated graphics in the M1 are faster than the integrated graphics on the intel Macs, but still much slower than discrete graphics?  WTF?  

    Could you imagine if Apple introduced an iMac with only 16GB of RAM (instead of 128GB), 2TB of storage (instead of 8TB), two USB-C (instead of 4 USB/2 Thunderbolt), and integrated graphics driving a 27+" 5K display?  It would be a joke!  Or a Mac Pro with those specs?  Suddenly people think a 16GB M1 can do anything?  Not when you throw a huge graphics file at it.  Let's not forget about the excessive read/writes that is occurring in the M1 Macs, wearing out the flash storage prematurely.

    Hopefully the next iMacs have specs that meet or exceed the current 2020 models.  There is a big reason why Apple is still selling the Intel models because they have more features than the M1 models.  Notice how fast M1 Macs appeared in the refurb store?  High customer returns triggered that.  Unfortunate that Apple intends to solder everything to the board.  No more replacing bad memory DIMMs or swapping out a bad drive.  Now when that goes bad outside of the warranty, the Mac will end up in the trash because replacing the motherboard is an expensive repair and people will throw it away and buy a new Mac.  I have high hopes for the iMac and MacBook Pro 16", but the M1 was too limiting in features to consider buying.
    This entire rant is like complaining that your favorite NFL team isn't already leading 21-0 after having played 2 minutes of the 1st quarter of the game.  
    (Or this rant could be an April fool's joke.....in which case you can ignore the above comment)
    edited April 1 frantisekjony0spock1234Detnator
  • Reply 26 of 46
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,179member
    Finally an article that clearly points out the unfortunate limitations of the M1.  Everyone is so blinded in tunnel vision of 3x performance that they are completely missing out on the fact that the M1 is a low-end base model CPU with less features than the models it replaced.  

    It was not long ago that all the commenters were complaining of soldered memory, soldered storage, no upgrades, etc.  All Apple has to do is slap an Apple logo on a pig and the fanatics think it is the best thing in the world.  It wasn't long ago that people were complaining about 16GB RAM in the MacBooks and then they cheered when Apple bumped it up to 32GB and 64GB.  Now suddenly they are all happy that the M1 is capped at 16GB?  Suddenly they are excited that integrated graphics in the M1 are faster than the integrated graphics on the intel Macs, but still much slower than discrete graphics?  WTF?  

    Could you imagine if Apple introduced an iMac with only 16GB of RAM (instead of 128GB), 2TB of storage (instead of 8TB), two USB-C (instead of 4 USB/2 Thunderbolt), and integrated graphics driving a 27+" 5K display?  It would be a joke!  Or a Mac Pro with those specs?  Suddenly people think a 16GB M1 can do anything?  Not when you throw a huge graphics file at it.  Let's not forget about the excessive read/writes that is occurring in the M1 Macs, wearing out the flash storage prematurely.

    Hopefully the next iMacs have specs that meet or exceed the current 2020 models.  There is a big reason why Apple is still selling the Intel models because they have more features than the M1 models.  Notice how fast M1 Macs appeared in the refurb store?  High customer returns triggered that.  Unfortunate that Apple intends to solder everything to the board.  No more replacing bad memory DIMMs or swapping out a bad drive.  Now when that goes bad outside of the warranty, the Mac will end up in the trash because replacing the motherboard is an expensive repair and people will throw it away and buy a new Mac.  I have high hopes for the iMac and MacBook Pro 16", but the M1 was too limiting in features to consider buying.
    IMO, I don't see 16GB of RAM / 2TB SSD an issue for the three models of devices Apple released.  I think the Mac Mini, MBA and entry MBP are focused at people with light needs, like web browsing, office apps, etc.  I don't think these kind of users will have an issue with these specs.
    thtdewmejony0watto_cobraspock1234Detnator
  • Reply 27 of 46
    frantisekfrantisek Posts: 744member
    danvm said:
    see above
    IMO, I don't see 16GB of RAM / 2TB SSD an issue for the three models of devices Apple released.  I think the Mac Mini, MBA and entry MBP are focused at people with light needs, like web browsing, office apps, etc.  I don't think these kind of users will have an issue with these specs.

    Yeah. M1 is entry level chip that will be used in entry level machines for few years till it will be economical to produce it. And such machines has not to compete with upcoming more poverfull models with M1X, M2 and others. They will get more ports, monitors, more RAM and so on.
    Next Macbooks will be with soldered RAM as before. It is question how Apple will solve adding more RAM in higher end machines. Only fould can expect Mac Pro will have chip with integrated 64 GB RAM a GPU and nothoing more lol.

    Take machine that fits your needs or wait for new one and stop lamenting people.
    watto_cobraspock1234
  • Reply 28 of 46
    doggonedoggone Posts: 307member
    The point that the first silicon macs are entry level is important.  We haven’t yet seen what Apple has in mind for more pro targeted machines.  I am excited for sure and would certainly pick up two 16-inch silicon MBP as soon as they are available. In my case it is not for power per se but for a larger screen laptop that can last for 4-6 years. My last 2 MBPs are still working great considering one of them was bought in 2012.  
    For the non- power user like me, having a system that just works and is well built is key.  If silicon macs make for cooler macs then even better and longer battery life would be a great feature.  SSD size does matter for me as I find anything less than 512 gb creates issues with software upgrades since I will max out the space.  
    I feel that Apple will take its time on addressing the Pro needs. Some of that will be because the graphics needs are going to be harder to address. Saying that there should be no reason why Apple can’t continue to use AMD graphics if they are compatible with silicon chip sets. 
    JinTechwatto_cobraspock1234
  • Reply 29 of 46
    WgkruegerWgkrueger Posts: 347member

    tht said:
    Beats said:
    I was underwhelmed with the M1 Mac reveal. Yeah I know it has a bad ass Apple processor and bad ass software support but I expected more from the company who invented the Mac.


    Here’s what I expected

    1. Apple modem or at least support for cellular networks.

    2. App Store funnel for all applications. (Probably too late for this now)

    3. A revolutionary new design. Maybe a new touchbar, FaceID, a hinge that can place the MacBook flat for Pencil support and drawing etc.


    One of the main points of Apple Silicon Macs was that they didn’t run hot.... oh yeah and also noiseless.
    1. Yeah. It is curious why they haven't had cellular modem options for their laptops.

    2. As long people can side load, the App Store just isn't going to be a thing on macOS. Apple can make the App Store a popular place if they published some popular apps maybe, but they are reluctant to do that.

    3. I don't think there is a "revolutionary" design in the cards for a PC, not like the OG iPhone was. It's all iterative refinements. A foldable, with robust display covers, will be coming, but I don't think that's a revolution. You are still operating it like a laptop or a tablet, except the keyboards and tracking devices will be virtual. I do think they need to put more work in with keyboards, both the software versions on iPads, the ones in laptops, and external ones. It's something used all the time, a primary UI device, and continued optimizations and maybe experimentation would be nice to see.

    Eg, I'd like them to offer 2-row, 3-row ortho-linear software keyboards on iPadOS. Something that would yield more display area for apps.

    4. The next revolution is probably AR. Obviously Apple has been hinting so for ages now.


    Beats said:
    One of the main points of Apple Silicon Macs was that they didn’t run hot.... oh yeah and also noiseless.
    They still get hot, just less so then before. Moving the hot components away from the keyboard to the back of the display just eliminates having hot keys all together.

    Then, we will see how it goes when the large Apple Silicon laptops arrive.
    Apple is never going to put a cellular modem in their desktops or laptops. Reasons why, off the top of my head:
    1. "Everybody" already has a phone in their pocket that they "always" have with them. Easier to share that connection than add hardware components that affect the design.
    2. Apple sells iPhones for hefty prices that people are more than willing to buy. Why give up that revenue stream?
    Frankly, I'm surprised that Apple put a cellular modem in the iPad. But I guess that's due to the evolution of the iPhone and iPad from the original idea back in the early 2000s.
    The third reason would you’d be forced to pay monthly for another phone line.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 30 of 46
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 6,957member
    If you want to know about M2 new capabilities I would suggest looking at Arm v9 new architecture. 
    I probably wouldn’t. Apple Silicon isn’t based on ARM reference designs. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 31 of 46
    WgkruegerWgkrueger Posts: 347member

    Finally an article that clearly points out the unfortunate limitations of the M1.  Everyone is so blinded in tunnel vision of 3x performance that they are completely missing out on the fact that the M1 is a low-end base model CPU with less features than the models it replaced.  

    It was not long ago that all the commenters were complaining of soldered memory, soldered storage, no upgrades, etc.  All Apple has to do is slap an Apple logo on a pig and the fanatics think it is the best thing in the world.  It wasn't long ago that people were complaining about 16GB RAM in the MacBooks and then they cheered when Apple bumped it up to 32GB and 64GB.  Now suddenly they are all happy that the M1 is capped at 16GB?  Suddenly they are excited that integrated graphics in the M1 are faster than the integrated graphics on the intel Macs, but still much slower than discrete graphics?  WTF?  

    Could you imagine if Apple introduced an iMac with only 16GB of RAM (instead of 128GB), 2TB of storage (instead of 8TB), two USB-C (instead of 4 USB/2 Thunderbolt), and integrated graphics driving a 27+" 5K display?  It would be a joke!  Or a Mac Pro with those specs?  Suddenly people think a 16GB M1 can do anything?  Not when you throw a huge graphics file at it.  Let's not forget about the excessive read/writes that is occurring in the M1 Macs, wearing out the flash storage prematurely.

    Hopefully the next iMacs have specs that meet or exceed the current 2020 models.  There is a big reason why Apple is still selling the Intel models because they have more features than the M1 models.  Notice how fast M1 Macs appeared in the refurb store?  High customer returns triggered that.  Unfortunate that Apple intends to solder everything to the board.  No more replacing bad memory DIMMs or swapping out a bad drive.  Now when that goes bad outside of the warranty, the Mac will end up in the trash because replacing the motherboard is an expensive repair and people will throw it away and buy a new Mac.  I have high hopes for the iMac and MacBook Pro 16", but the M1 was too limiting in features to consider buying.
    Of course the legacy, creaky Intel systems have an advantage, they've been out there for a long long while, propped up by add ons in external, non-Intel graphics and storage systems along with third party drivers to get around the Intel based systems limitations.  The M1 is the entry and the M-series will be the new king of the desktop, more like the emperor of desktops. Once the PC manufacturers start to file bankruptcy over the next three years and server farms start converting to energy efficient ARM processors, Intel will see dwindling cash flows preventing them from further innovations. I give Intel 5 years. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 32 of 46
    WgkruegerWgkrueger Posts: 347member

    mcdave said:
    This is probably a good year to switch the introduction of new, higher performing cores to a device that actually needs that performance - not a phone.

    macOS 12 should probably introduce a new GPU dispatcher to balance tasks between Apple iGPU & Apple dGPU based on the Metal initialisation parameters or declarations. That way any new dGPU would easily outperform AMD/Nvidia offerings.

    Apple should fuse OS & hardware layers ASAP before the politicians start deciding their product architecture. And, introduce quality grading & filters to the App Stores so customers can be better informed about which Apps actually use the OS/platform rather than lazy, lowest common denominator ARM ports.
    Don’t forget that the iPhone has put a major computing device in the hands of many more people than the Mac could ever do. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 33 of 46
    lkrupplkrupp Posts: 9,634member
    tht said:
    My 2013 iMac 27 is still humming along. It's the family computer. It's unsupported now, and it's probably one problem away from total replacement.

    To replace it, I would like to have a ~30" display, 8 TB of storage, and capability to add more storage years down the road. When you keep every single picture and video taken, it adds up! A small headless desktop where I can add 2 3.5" HDD would be great on top of the builtin storage. Yes, I probably need to invest in a little computer as a file server one of these days.

    The Apple Silicon iMac better come quick!

    My main problem with laptops is that they can get hot. I hate the feeling of typing on hot keys, and my work issued MBP15 gets hot while attached to an external monitor. I want this problem to go away, so if Apple puts the SoC in the back of the laptop display, it would be so worth it for me. As the M1 models show. Well, really, as the iPad Pro shows, Apple can put a lot of computing power in a very small and thin package, 6 mm thick only. Do it, Apple. As a plus, it would let them play around with the keyboard, add more battery, etc.

    A laptop with a low profile hot swappable mechanical keyboard would be interesting. They'll have prestige things like a folding display laptop, but just your simple and functional laptop that has a keyboard that is always cool to the touch and noiseless has its attractions too.
    A hot swappable mechanical keyboard? 2 3.5 HDDs? You want spinning hard drives, not SSDs? Daydream much? Fantasize much? Do you live on Tralfamadore with Billy Pilgrim? No such machine will ever exist, least of all a Mac. Why not just think rationally?
    jony0
  • Reply 34 of 46
    doggonedoggone Posts: 307member
    Wgkrueger said:

    tht said:
    Beats said:
    I was underwhelmed with the M1 Mac reveal. Yeah I know it has a bad ass Apple processor and bad ass software support but I expected more from the company who invented the Mac.


    Here’s what I expected

    1. Apple modem or at least support for cellular networks.

    2. App Store funnel for all applications. (Probably too late for this now)

    3. A revolutionary new design. Maybe a new touchbar, FaceID, a hinge that can place the MacBook flat for Pencil support and drawing etc.


    One of the main points of Apple Silicon Macs was that they didn’t run hot.... oh yeah and also noiseless.
    1. Yeah. It is curious why they haven't had cellular modem options for their laptops.

    2. As long people can side load, the App Store just isn't going to be a thing on macOS. Apple can make the App Store a popular place if they published some popular apps maybe, but they are reluctant to do that.

    3. I don't think there is a "revolutionary" design in the cards for a PC, not like the OG iPhone was. It's all iterative refinements. A foldable, with robust display covers, will be coming, but I don't think that's a revolution. You are still operating it like a laptop or a tablet, except the keyboards and tracking devices will be virtual. I do think they need to put more work in with keyboards, both the software versions on iPads, the ones in laptops, and external ones. It's something used all the time, a primary UI device, and continued optimizations and maybe experimentation would be nice to see.

    Eg, I'd like them to offer 2-row, 3-row ortho-linear software keyboards on iPadOS. Something that would yield more display area for apps.

    4. The next revolution is probably AR. Obviously Apple has been hinting so for ages now.


    Beats said:
    One of the main points of Apple Silicon Macs was that they didn’t run hot.... oh yeah and also noiseless.
    They still get hot, just less so then before. Moving the hot components away from the keyboard to the back of the display just eliminates having hot keys all together.

    Then, we will see how it goes when the large Apple Silicon laptops arrive.
    Apple is never going to put a cellular modem in their desktops or laptops. Reasons why, off the top of my head:
    1. "Everybody" already has a phone in their pocket that they "always" have with them. Easier to share that connection than add hardware components that affect the design.
    2. Apple sells iPhones for hefty prices that people are more than willing to buy. Why give up that revenue stream?
    Frankly, I'm surprised that Apple put a cellular modem in the iPad. But I guess that's due to the evolution of the iPhone and iPad from the original idea back in the early 2000s.
    The third reason would you’d be forced to pay monthly for another phone line.
    That last reason is why I do not buy cellular for the Apple Watch or iPads.  The thought of having to pay an extra $10 a month per device makes no sense to me.  Unless you are on the road a lot and will be using cellular on those devices, it just isn't worth it. The same thing would be true for a Mac with a cellular modem.  If you are mostly using the device at home with Wifi connection, paying for the cellular service is waste of money.
    FWIW, the personal hotspot on the iPhone works well.  For both Macs and PCs!
    muthuk_vanalingamwatto_cobra
  • Reply 35 of 46
    nealc5nealc5 Posts: 38member
    xyzzy-xxx said:
    I hope that some of the limits of Apole Silicon will be lifted:

    1. no target disk mode

    2. more / expandable ram

    3. 3rd party graphics hardware 
    Agree with this list and the priority order.  Target disk mode was a nice Apple-only function.  And the RAM situation just looks like greed (at least for desktops where space is at a lower premium).
    Since the system RAM and GPU RAM are unified to get speed, it's not a greed thing, but a speed thing.  I suppose there may be a way to do some external RAM but still maintain speed with RAM swaps (like 32 GB unified RAM and then more external if some power user really needed it). 
    https://www.macworld.com/article/234843/m1-macs-memory-isnt-what-it-used-to-be.html
    jony0watto_cobra
  • Reply 36 of 46
    Dave Kap said:
    This is a great article and reminds me of DED.  Speaking of DED, can anybody tell me if he is ok and  coming back to Apple Insider?
    I think he’s okay, and he posted an article about graphics/Metal a few weeks ago, but his last full-time contribution at AI was in November 2020, with a review of the M1 MacBook Pro and several related editorials. Before that, he was last fully active in June 2020. Roughly Drafted, though, hasn’t seen any new material since March 2020. 

    He’s still active on Twitter. So I don’t know, it’s hard to say. Seems like he’s been on leave from AI, rather than being completely gone, or maybe now he’s working freelance rather than on staff?

    https://appleinsider.com/articles/21/03/05/lunar-details-a-very-exciting-time-for-high-end-mac-pro-apple-silicon
    Alex_Vwatto_cobraspock1234
  • Reply 37 of 46
    jdb8167jdb8167 Posts: 621member
    This is a very odd comment considering your previous comment. First mistake is saying everyone was complaining about soldered RAM, etc. then you bash people for liking the M1s. If it doesn’t meet your needs, then wait as you pointed out these are meant to be low end and not replace high end computers for the reasons you point out. These M1s replaced Intel models with similar ram and hard drive specs. I’ve pointed out that if you need 1.5 TB of ram, your workflow will not fit in these M1 Macs. That said, the performance of these M1 Macs are amazing. This isn’t drinking punch, nor because of the Apple brand. For a good deal of people, these M1 Macs are excellent, including me. Yes even professionals are enjoying these Macs. 

    Having referb computers doesn’t mean that there were a high amount of returns, just that there was enough returns, soon to provide such Macs. It might be they couldn’t get the configuration soon enough for them, so they bought a lower end model. Only low end configurations were in stores. Our non customized MacBook Pro was able to be picked up the same day, vs my customized Mac Mini had to wait weeks. 
    Also, wouldn’t a high number of returns more likely be from people not realizing that they aren’t 100% compatible with the Intel Macs? Things are getting better but they aren’t perfect yet. Some people like the somewhat experimental aspect of the M1 Macs but not everyone has that kind of experience and patience. Early adaptors are a special class. By this time next year, the Apple Silicon ecosystem will be much more advanced and more average users will be happier overall with the ASi Macs.

    The soldered RAM is for low power, performance and low memory latency. LPDDR4x is not available in any socketed form. Any DDR socketed RAM is going to use a lot more battery. The soldered SSD is for security but mostly for battery again. Apple has a SSD controller as part of the M1 SoC. This allows them to have an SSD controller at 5 nm. This something no one else has. It is likely that Apple’s integrated NVMe controller is high performance for a very small amount of power.
    watto_cobraspock1234
  • Reply 38 of 46
    thttht Posts: 4,131member
    lkrupp said:
    tht said:
    My 2013 iMac 27 is still humming along. It's the family computer. It's unsupported now, and it's probably one problem away from total replacement.

    To replace it, I would like to have a ~30" display, 8 TB of storage, and capability to add more storage years down the road. When you keep every single picture and video taken, it adds up! A small headless desktop where I can add 2 3.5" HDD would be great on top of the builtin storage. Yes, I probably need to invest in a little computer as a file server one of these days.

    The Apple Silicon iMac better come quick!

    My main problem with laptops is that they can get hot. I hate the feeling of typing on hot keys, and my work issued MBP15 gets hot while attached to an external monitor. I want this problem to go away, so if Apple puts the SoC in the back of the laptop display, it would be so worth it for me. As the M1 models show. Well, really, as the iPad Pro shows, Apple can put a lot of computing power in a very small and thin package, 6 mm thick only. Do it, Apple. As a plus, it would let them play around with the keyboard, add more battery, etc.

    A laptop with a low profile hot swappable mechanical keyboard would be interesting. They'll have prestige things like a folding display laptop, but just your simple and functional laptop that has a keyboard that is always cool to the touch and noiseless has its attractions too.
    A hot swappable mechanical keyboard? 2 3.5 HDDs? You want spinning hard drives, not SSDs? Daydream much? Fantasize much? Do you live on Tralfamadore with Billy Pilgrim? No such machine will ever exist, least of all a Mac. Why not just think rationally?
    No worries lkrupp, we are all having fun here. Someone asks that Apple should innovate or revolutionize Macs. We come up ideas. It's an act in fantasizing, and ideas to solve our problems spew forth. Apple is using their own CPU, GPU designs, which are much lower power and take less space inside machines. It opens up what they can do, what type of form factors they can use.

    No one has a hard time with Apple coming out with a folding display phone, tablet or laptop. We are all just waiting on robust screen covers and displays, and it will become more common. Is that any more far fetched than a laptop with mechanical keyboards? There is a rumor that Apple designing a Mac Pro that is half the size of the 2019 Mac Pro. It won't be far fetched to be able to put 2 HDD in there.

    Then, Apple's AR eyewear is coming out. It's an inevitability considering all the rumors, right? Those devices are pretty wild ideas relative to the refinements or experiments with traditional computer form factors. So, we all hope Apple is willing to ship some not so traditional hardware. Not everything will be or has to be a homerun in terms of sales.
    muthuk_vanalingamwatto_cobra
  • Reply 39 of 46
    tht said:
    Beats said:
    I was underwhelmed with the M1 Mac reveal. Yeah I know it has a bad ass Apple processor and bad ass software support but I expected more from the company who invented the Mac.


    Here’s what I expected

    1. Apple modem or at least support for cellular networks.

    2. App Store funnel for all applications. (Probably too late for this now)

    3. A revolutionary new design. Maybe a new touchbar, FaceID, a hinge that can place the MacBook flat for Pencil support and drawing etc.


    One of the main points of Apple Silicon Macs was that they didn’t run hot.... oh yeah and also noiseless.
    1. Yeah. It is curious why they haven't had cellular modem options for their laptops.

    2. As long people can side load, the App Store just isn't going to be a thing on macOS. Apple can make the App Store a popular place if they published some popular apps maybe, but they are reluctant to do that.

    3. I don't think there is a "revolutionary" design in the cards for a PC, not like the OG iPhone was. It's all iterative refinements. A foldable, with robust display covers, will be coming, but I don't think that's a revolution. You are still operating it like a laptop or a tablet, except the keyboards and tracking devices will be virtual. I do think they need to put more work in with keyboards, both the software versions on iPads, the ones in laptops, and external ones. It's something used all the time, a primary UI device, and continued optimizations and maybe experimentation would be nice to see.

    Eg, I'd like them to offer 2-row, 3-row ortho-linear software keyboards on iPadOS. Something that would yield more display area for apps.

    4. The next revolution is probably AR. Obviously Apple has been hinting so for ages now.


    Beats said:
    One of the main points of Apple Silicon Macs was that they didn’t run hot.... oh yeah and also noiseless.
    They still get hot, just less so then before. Moving the hot components away from the keyboard to the back of the display just eliminates having hot keys all together.

    Then, we will see how it goes when the large Apple Silicon laptops arrive.
    At peak power draw an M1 uses about 40 watts.  Intel chips can pull upwards of 120 watts (or more) at peak. You don’t get heat unless you are drawing watts. I don’t know how long an M1 can sustain a peak draw or what the consequences of running near the max for extended times are but unless there are secondary significant  heat generators inside a M1 MacBook they will run a lot cooler than an I5 or I7 Intel powered computer will. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 40 of 46
    thttht Posts: 4,131member
    tht said:
    Beats said:
    I was underwhelmed with the M1 Mac reveal. Yeah I know it has a bad ass Apple processor and bad ass software support but I expected more from the company who invented the Mac.


    Here’s what I expected

    1. Apple modem or at least support for cellular networks.

    2. App Store funnel for all applications. (Probably too late for this now)

    3. A revolutionary new design. Maybe a new touchbar, FaceID, a hinge that can place the MacBook flat for Pencil support and drawing etc.


    One of the main points of Apple Silicon Macs was that they didn’t run hot.... oh yeah and also noiseless.
    1. Yeah. It is curious why they haven't had cellular modem options for their laptops.

    2. As long people can side load, the App Store just isn't going to be a thing on macOS. Apple can make the App Store a popular place if they published some popular apps maybe, but they are reluctant to do that.

    3. I don't think there is a "revolutionary" design in the cards for a PC, not like the OG iPhone was. It's all iterative refinements. A foldable, with robust display covers, will be coming, but I don't think that's a revolution. You are still operating it like a laptop or a tablet, except the keyboards and tracking devices will be virtual. I do think they need to put more work in with keyboards, both the software versions on iPads, the ones in laptops, and external ones. It's something used all the time, a primary UI device, and continued optimizations and maybe experimentation would be nice to see.

    Eg, I'd like them to offer 2-row, 3-row ortho-linear software keyboards on iPadOS. Something that would yield more display area for apps.

    4. The next revolution is probably AR. Obviously Apple has been hinting so for ages now.


    Beats said:
    One of the main points of Apple Silicon Macs was that they didn’t run hot.... oh yeah and also noiseless.
    They still get hot, just less so then before. Moving the hot components away from the keyboard to the back of the display just eliminates having hot keys all together.

    Then, we will see how it goes when the large Apple Silicon laptops arrive.
    At peak power draw an M1 uses about 40 watts.  Intel chips can pull upwards of 120 watts (or more) at peak. You don’t get heat unless you are drawing watts. I don’t know how long an M1 can sustain a peak draw or what the consequences of running near the max for extended times are but unless there are secondary significant  heat generators inside a M1 MacBook they will run a lot cooler than an I5 or I7 Intel powered computer will. 
    Yes, but the amount of heat felt on the top surface is entirely dependent on the cooling system, even if the SoC is only outputting 10 Watts. Apple designs the cooling system so that it keeps the surface temperature of the laptop to some maximum temperature, and that limit is mostly the same for Intel and M1 systems, or the M1 system limit is a little cooler. The M1 laptops have great characteristics here as they don't ramp up to their maximum power consumption unless doing something that really maxes out the CPUs and GPUs. With Intel systems, it really doesn't take much, and you can feel them get hot doing mostly normal things.

    My MBP15 has a particular issue where it uses the dGPU when an external monitor is connected. I've been typing on the laptop keyboard while connected to an external monitor for years now. With the dGPU in use, the keyboard, Touch Bar and top surface near the hinge are hot. The Apple Silicon version of the large MBP will have >40 W SoCs, probably 80 to 100 W. They'll be better because Apple Silicon will use a lot less power for the vast majority of situations, but they can solve it all together by moving the SoC away from keyboard and to the back of the display.

    It's not too bad of a thought. The iPad Pro is 6 mm thick after all, and with a little bit of tapering, it won't look too bad. It will have the added bonus of the lid being more rigid. Easier to do with an M1 system. For a large MBP, they will need a fan. A really thin 3 to 4 mm thin blower fan. There are other ideas on cooling...

    Btw, having a laptop thinner and thinner is a broad industry trend for decades now. It doesn't have to be that way. What if a laptop was 20 mm thick, and it enabled certain features, like a mechanical keyboard, or enable keyboard options.
    muthuk_vanalingamwatto_cobra
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