Apple's 'M2' processor enters mass production for MacBook Pro

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  • Reply 241 of 291
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 9,797member
    tmay said:
    danvm said:
    Hubro said:
    danvm said:
    Agree, the M1 changed everything.  That's the reason I said that a X1 Nano (or X1 Carbon) with a M1 would be my perfect computer.  An excellent mobile processor with the best design and construction in a notebook.
    Just for clarification, the X1 Nano (as well as the X1 Carbon and the P1) are carbon fiber in the top and magnesium alloy in the bottom.  Maybe that's the reason a car can run over it, and still working.  Nice, don't you think?
    ...It's getting really boring, and for my part, it stops here.
    Unfortunately for the resident Wintel corporate shill, it never stops, he never stops and AI just loves the conflicts he produces in his ridiculous posts as people respond and that creates activity (which in turn results in more $$), as if *any* of us come to this forum to have someone sell us on another company's products. It's just pathetic and people like that ruin what *could* otherwise be a fun discussion forum. I just wish people would stop replying to him (and his brethren ilk) so I wouldn't have to suffer his insufferable lunacy in replies. Sigh.
    Just to clarify, most of my devices in my household are from Apple.  So the "Wintel corporate shill" don't apply to me, but neither I'm an "Apple shill", since I have zero emotional attachment to any of my Apple devices.  And neither I have devices from Lenovo.  But in my line of work I have to work with all kind of devices and brands, from notebooks to professional workstations.

    If you read my posts you'll see why, IMO, ThinkPads are better designed compared to Apple notebooks.  Does it means that Apple devices are bad?  But neither are perfect, and if you want a recent example, just look at the butterfly keyboards.  Based in my experience, some Apple notebooks are better than ThinkPad and viceversa.  But in construction, and design, I give the advantage to ThinkPads.  The iMac is the best All-In-One in the market, while the Mini have some competition from the HP Z1 and the ThinkStation Tiny.  The iPad is the best tablet, until you add a keyboard + trackpad, where the Surface Pro does a better job.  And the HP Z-workstations and Lenovo ThinkStations maybe betterthan the Mac Pro, depending in the usage.

    Does this sound to you pathetic and from a Wintel corporate shill?  Hope not.  Again, most of my posts are based in what I experienced in the field.  When you are outside the Apple bubble you can see what's good and bad with Apple and with other devices.  And I have zero issues praising or criticizing any of them.  But if you think that every Apple device is absolutely better than other vendors, then you may need to expand the list of devices you use, and it may surprise you what you may find.  

    There's a PC market, and then there's a Mac market, and just like the smartphone where it's iPhone vs everyone else, Apple is growing its customer base, and interestingly, its margins.

    What does that tell you about Apple, and specifically Apple product design, and the customer? You seem to fail to see the big picture, hence why your postings come across as unconvincing.

    What's the big picture?

    That Apple is disrupting the PC business.

    https://mondaynote.com/apple-silicon-m1-disruption-af11f639103a

    He explained himself clearly.
    It is he who IS seeing the big picture (and looking at things objectively rather than emotionally)
  • Reply 242 of 291
    Hubro said:
    danvm said:
    Agree, the M1 changed everything.  That's the reason I said that a X1 Nano (or X1 Carbon) with a M1 would be my perfect computer.  An excellent mobile processor with the best design and construction in a notebook.
    Just for clarification, the X1 Nano (as well as the X1 Carbon and the P1) are carbon fiber in the top and magnesium alloy in the bottom.  Maybe that's the reason a car can run over it, and still working.  Nice, don't you think?
    ...It's getting really boring, and for my part, it stops here.
    Unfortunately for the resident Wintel corporate shill, it never stops, he never stops and AI just loves the conflicts he produces in his ridiculous posts as people respond and that creates activity (which in turn results in more $$), as if *any* of us come to this forum to have someone sell us on another company's products. It's just pathetic and people like that ruin what *could* otherwise be a fun discussion forum. I just wish people would stop replying to him (and his brethren ilk) so I wouldn't have to suffer his insufferable lunacy in replies. Sigh.

    I didn't realize the site was reserved for Apple Apologists....
    But Wintel shill? 
    No, just disproving false claims about using cheap glue and solder are not necessary to make a laptop thin, light or reliable.




    And you jumped straight to your thinking I was referring to *you* as the Wintel shill, not true at all. Thought it was obvious who the Wintel/Micro$haft shill was on this forum, just as obvious as who is the resident Android shill and who is the resident Google shill (none of which are you).

    Quite often you're one of my favourites in your comments, this thread not withstanding. Not at all interested in this current argument (either side), just wish it would end.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 243 of 291
    crowleycrowley Posts: 8,197member
    crowley said:
    sdw2001 said:
    sdw2001 said:
    sdw2001 said:
    sdw2001 said:
    sdw2001 said:
    Wgkrueger said:
    seanj said:
    For all those defending the "Everything Glued together & soldered together" assembly of the MacBooks by saying "Nobody ever upgraded a computer", Andrew just called bull!

    His biggest (only?) complaint about his M1 MacBook Air is that it can't meet his needs because it is frozen in time with what it came with when he bought it -- versus his MacPro which grew and developed with enhancements as his needs, wants and requirements grew.

    Likewise, my 9 year old i7 Thinkpad runs perfectly well and meets all of my needs -- because it's been upgraded to a 500Gb SSD, 16Gb Ram and an internal harddrive used for ongoing, real time backups.  Without those cheap and very simple to install (5 minutes or less) upgrades the machine would have been scrap
    Only a tiny percentage of people tinker with the computers, it’s a niche market that’s similar to those that add nitrous oxide to their cars...
    Most people just want a computer they can do things with, rather than do things to, in other words a consumer product. With Apple they get that, which is why customer satisfaction is so high.

    If you have a 9 year old Thinkpad then you’re probably either running XP (good luck browsing the Internet securely) or you’re running Linux. If it’s the latter then if you happy with a limited number of professional applications then that’s fine.

    I forgot to mention that its running WIndows 10.  So, its security is a good as good as any Windows machine.   Admittedly that's a low bar. 
    But the point of the post was NOT about lengetivity but to reiterate what Andew said:   His MacPro remained functional because it could be upgraded with additional RAM & Storage -- while his MacBook AIr could not meet his needs because it was all glued and soldered together and locked into its initial configuration when he bought it.
    If it needed to be upgraded immediately then it can be returned to Apple. If his needs exceeded the capabilities of a maxed out machine then he couldn’t upgrade it anyway (thinking memory here) and he could return it to Apple. If he used it for a period of time and his use cases changed so they exceeded the machines capabilities, which I think was part of your original point, then it’s a case of longevity. 
    ...

    The point?  Apple clearly looked at what its customers were actually doing, and found the benefits of hardwiring and gluing everything outweighed the negatives.  While I can see the other side, I agree.  I've had Macs since the Pismo PowerBook G3 (2000).   The number of issues I had with those machines (getting a new one every 3-4 years) was far, far higher than now.  The products are not as serviceable or upgradable.  But they also don't need to be.  

     
    Perhaps the question is:   Who benefited?   i don't think it was the customer.   For them, in a laptop, soldered & glued together that was non-upgradeable offers no benefit.   Can it be made a half millimeter thinner by eliminating a socket?   Perhaps.  But, even if true, that is a pretty marginal benefit.

    I think I explained my thinking on the benefits to the customer.  A thinner, lighter, more solid and perhaps longer-lasting design benefits the customer.  Speaking from a real-world and personal perspective, the benefits to me have been more than marginal.  As I said, I was a person who used to upgrade things myself.  I did RAM, HDD, SSD, battery (modular or internal), etc.  I don't care about that anymore.  Know why?  Because I don't need to do it.  The components on my 2015 (model year, actually started using in fall of 2016) MBP haven't needed to be replaced or upgraded.  I'm at the point now where I still don't need more capabilities, but I'll probably upgrade in a year or two anyway.  After all, my product is now vintage and nearly obsolete.  

    Again, all things being equal, I prefer upgradeability.  But things are not equal.  The design is better.  The feel is better.  Components last longer and are higher performance.  It's like complaining that you can't swap out your fuel injectors, when you could change your carburetor in your classic car.  

    I still fail to see how eliminating a socket makes a machine thinner (at least in any meaningful way).  Nor do I see how soldering an SSD makes it any stronger.  If the frame of the machine is that weak, it will work the opposite and break the solder joint -- at which time you lose your data when you throw away your machine.


    OK, we're beyond just a difference in philosophy or even consumer preference at this point.  Given the way you're going at it with others, I get the feeling that you are rigidly stuck in your position or perhaps just looking to debate.  I'm hoping I'm wrong, though.  

    The point is not just removing a socket, though removing anything could conceivably allow less mass and therefore a potential thinner design.  We don't even have to speculate though, because it is an established fact that Apple products are thinner and lighter.  My 2009 MBP weighs 5.5 lbs and is .95 inches thick.  My 2015 is obviously a much higher performing machine, and is 4.49 lbs and .71 inches thick.  So it's about 20% lighter and thinner.  I won't get into the performance benchmarks, but you can imagine that my current quad core machine pretty much slays the dual core 2009 machine.  

    So we've established that whatever changes Apple is making, they result in (or correlate with) faster, more powerful machines that are thinner and lighter.  So, let's now talk reliability.  As I stated, I've replaced my 2009's battery once, and it now needs it again.  I've replaced the charger.  I upgraded to an SSD (a Samsung that ended up being a problem) and then replaced the SSD again (an OWC I think).  I can't recall if I upgraded the RAM...but I think I may have.  Conversely, I'm in my 6th year of use with my 2015 MBP 2.2GHZ quad core (Retina).  I've repaired and upgraded precisely nothing.  The battery is still at least 80%.  It doesn't even have any loose screws.  The keyboard is better and quieter.  I've spilled liquids near it....no issues.  It's higher performance, thinner, lighter, more solid machine.  It's a better machine, period.  Nothing on the machine is user serviceable as far as I know.  But why does it matter to me anymore?  

    Again, if you like having user upgradable laptops, that's fine.  I'm not arguing you shouldn't.  But you are being extremely critical of Apple and anyone who has a different take.  Your comment about "throwing away your machine" is frankly ridiculous.  A broken solder joint is not going to result in permanent data loss, for a variety of reason I suspect you already know, but won't acknowledge.  People back up their data quite a bit now, thanks to the cloud.  The system IS serviceable by authorized centers, including Apple.  People aren't just going to "throw their machine away."  That's absurd.  

    You may prefer to swap out a failed SSD yourself, but at what cost does that come? Apple evaluated who actually works on their own machines, what the costs and benefits of each approach were, and decided to go with a more hardwired method.  Think what you like, but that's obviously what happened.  Again, you're entitled to your own opinion.  But you're not even considering the other side of the debate.  

     

    As others have pointed out:  Thinkpads are lighter, thinner and upgradeable.   So, you need to give up on that argument.

    And, it was Andrew who said his MacBook Air could not meet his needs because, unlike his MacPro, it cannot be upgraded.  I agree with him.   Obviously you think he just "critical of Apple".   He isn't and neither I am I.   But, we both recognize a poor design choice when we see it.

    How many cheap debate tactics can you fit into one post?  I count three.  No, four.

    1) Appeal to majority ("others have pointed out").  
    2) False comparision/dilemma (comparing MBP to Thinkpads directly).  
    3) Strawman ("you need to give up on that argument"....one I wasn't making).  
    4) Strawman #2 ("Obviously you think").  
    Maybe even 5) Appeal to authority (Andrew who said....). 


    I was not comparing MBP's to Thinkpads.  If a Thinkpad is a better option for you because it's upgradable, thin and light, good for you.  What I was doing was illustrating that Apple's products have indisputably gotten lighter and thinner.  This was in direct response to your claim that there was no benefit to the consumer.  Clearly, that's incorrect, especially for portables.  I also illustrated (somewhat anecdotally) that at the same time, their build quality, feel and reliability have improved.  Here again, this is an obvious benefit to the consumer.  

    Please put away the "you obviously think" straw man.  I didn't say Andrew was just being critical of Apple.  I'm not even sure I'd say that about you.  You do seem completely entrenched, myopic and needlessly argumentative on this point, though.  A perfect example is your last sentence.  A poor design choice? No, it's design choice you don't like. And that's fine.   But running around claiming it has no benefit to consumers, you'll have to throw out your laptop, etc?  Please.  Oh, and I'll point out.... I find it hilarious and bizarre that someone would accuse Apple of making a "poor design choice" because their $1500 portable doesn't meet the same needs as their $5000 desktop.   

    I don't know who you're trying to convince here.  You're certainly not going to change Apple's mind.  I doubt you're changing too many minds here.  
    LOL....
    You obviously WERE claiming that Macs were thinner, lighter, etc...
    Sorry if your claim was refuted and made you feel bad.  So, instead of apologizing you attack the messenger.  Sad.
    I'm puzzled at why you seem to be responding so defensively, but I'll just put that aside and reiterate my point.  
    It's the only way George knows how to communicate.  He rants and screams and calls people Trumpers or Apple Fan boys if they express any disagreement with anything he says.  Everything is black and white and angry in GBM world.

    I wouldn't take the defensiveness or the hostility personally, it's very much him, not you.  I'm convinced he needs professional help.
    Typical!  -- when you lose a debate you resort to attacking the messenger. 
    But, if you have nothing to contribute, go kick your dog or something instead of cluttering up the forum with your hate and anger.
    I've responded to you constructively and respectfully in the past on a variety of subjects, and only got ranting and insults in return.  You've lost politeness privileges, and I will be open to others about your tactics.
    muthuk_vanalingamwatto_cobra
  • Reply 244 of 291
    crowleycrowley Posts: 8,197member
    tmay said:
    melgross said:
    melgross said:
    melgross said:
    thedba said:
    For all those defending the "Everything Glued together & soldered together" assembly of the MacBooks by saying "Nobody ever upgraded a computer", Andrew just called bull!

    His biggest (only?) complaint about his M1 MacBook Air is that it can't meet his needs because it is frozen in time with what it came with when he bought it -- versus his MacPro which grew and developed with enhancements as his needs, wants and requirements grew.

    Likewise, my 9 year old i7 Thinkpad runs perfectly well and meets all of my needs -- because it's been upgraded to a 500Gb SSD, 16Gb Ram and an internal harddrive used for ongoing, real time backups.  Without those cheap and very simple to install (5 minutes or less) upgrades the machine would have been scrap
    Statements such as this remind me of my now deceased father who used to long for the days of when he could service his car himself. 
    I sometimes wonder what he would say seeing today's Teslas or Priuses. 

    Either way, all technology will move towards this way of doing things with ARM architecture taking up more space. Apple is just ahead of the curve on this. 

    I don't see the logic behind equating an inability to service or upgrade something as synonymous with better products.
    For many products, a lack of upgradability means a smaller, sealed product which is more reliable and easier to carry around. In my own business, we generally had about 32 Macs. We would replace about a third every year, moving them down a tier in production until the forth year, when we either sold them or gave them away to employees. So we replaced all of our Macs over a three year period. Every other production house I knew did pretty much the same thing. My wife worked at Citicorp for 28 years, and she got a new computer every three years too, and most corporations are on a three year replacement schedule.

    we found that it cost more, and was a loss in productivity, to upgrade machines. For a short while that was a popular thing, as you could get excellent CPU upgrades for the Mac, significantly enhancing performance, something that never worked well with Windows machines. What we found best was to just get machines equipped the way we needed them in the first place. If you’re making real money with your machine, either as an individual, or as a corporation, you get to deduct many expenses, such as cost of equipment in several ways for tax purposes, making your purchases less expensive over the life of the machine. Discuss it with your accountant.

    increasing RAM can help, but not by nearly as much as you think. The reason why some claim this as a big thing is because they bought the lowest config in the beginning, which was below their needs. So yes, increasing it made a noticeable difference. But if you buy what you need in the beginning, adding more leads to a minor difference. Same thing with drives. Don’t skimp on a startup drive. Smaller drives and storage is always slower. That’s true for hard drives, SSD’s and internal NAND storage. There are real reasons for that. Figure out what you really need, and double it. Be realistic about both. Remember these days that 512 NAND will be almost twice as fast as 256, and that 1TB doesn’t add much speed above that. But I always get 1TB startup because you really shouldn’t keep NAND more than about 60% full for good NAND long term health.

    there are a bunch of common sense rules to follow if you understand your needs and how to satisfy them. Upgrading in mid stream rarely gets you much unless you starved your machine in the beginning.

    I agree.   a completely sealed, integrated, non-upgradeable device makes sense in something so small and portable like an iPhone or maybe even an iPad.
    But in a larger machine that serves no functional purpose -- except for planned obsolescence.  And, the larger the machine the more sense it makes to make it upgradeable -- such as Andrew's MacPro in this instance.
    I do wish that people would stop talking about planned obsolescence. That’s very rarely a thing. Things become obsolete because technology passes them by. What was a top line machine when bought becomes a low end machine in a few years. That’s the way technology works. New software often doesn’t work on old machines, often it’s not because of a lack of RAM, or drive space, though, yes, sometimes it is.

    mostly advances in technology on processors and related technology means that an OS has new features, ir is even redesigned. Sometimes new security protocols cuts software out of the loop. There are many reasons. But again, don’t be cheap, and figure you can get away with less, when what you do, or will be doing at some point, requires more. That’s a sure way to obsolete a machine. But, more RAM and bigger drives likely won’t save you, because the processor and bus are too slow. So you get a machine with a PCIe 2 bus (years ago, of course) and you found, two years later that all new upgrades are now PCIe 3, and that PCIe 2 upgrades are discontinued, and you have to scramble to fine one on eBay or some such place. And you can’t play the new games properly on it anyway, or do much else.

    so being an upgradablecmachine doesn’t always help. Who has a separate modem in their computer these days? No one. So you can’t upgrade that either. We could go on.

    It is true that, eventually, a machine reaches a point where its core components (mother board, etc.) just can't hack it anymore.  But I don't see the logic in hurrying that by gluing and soldering the typically upgradeable components like RAM and Harddrive.  That does not benefit the customer in any meaningful way.

    Another aspect of making the SSD upgradeable is data security:  If a machine dies (say by drowning in a Starbucks) a socketed SSD can be pulled and the data on it recovered.  That is not the case if it is soldered & glued to the motherboard.  Then your data dies with your machine.
    I take it that you’ve heard of backups? No responsible person with valuable data doesn’t backup. We (my company) stored data for some customers. We had three backups. One was in the area where we had our computer systems. One was in a room three floors above ours in the building the lab was in. And another was off site altogether, in another building several blocks away. We also carried millions in insurance just in the extremely unlikely situation that all three backups failed.

    Not a single person I know backs up their computer.
    Well one does...  But only because I installed a second harddrive in his desktop and started up "file history" for him.
    It's also one of the reasons why I like my 9 year old but upgraded Thinkpad:   I installed a second drive in it so that the data is automatically backed up.

    But, even for those who do run backups, unless they're done automatically, the backup is seldom fully current -- so the most valuable data (the most recent) tends to be lost.

    Strange though that you mention three backups -- that was my introduction to backups!
    in 1977, while working as an accountant, we accumulated a year's worth of production data from a newly implemented cost accounting system.   When I asked for a report so I could do some analysis we discovered that all three backups of it had were gone -- lost, damaged or accidentally written over.

    That's one of the reasons I'm so opposed to non-removeable drives -- I know there is only a single part of any computer that cannot in some way be replaced.  It's the most valuable part:  the data.

    If however, Apple would implement iCloud backups for Macs, that would take away one of my reasons for wanting removable SSDs.  I don't understand why they have not done that.


    FFS George, Apple has iCloud backups;


    "Tap Settings > [your name] > iCloud > Manage Storage, which will list how much iCloudstorage you're using and which apps are eating up the most storage. To automatically back up your device each day, turn on iCloud Backup via Settings > [your name] > iCloud > iCloud Backup and toggle iCloud Backup to on.

    You consistently amaze me with your misinformation...

    We're talking about Macs, not iPhones
    iCloud will sync anything you stick in your Documents folder, with default configuration.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 245 of 291
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,160member
    tmay said:
    danvm said:
    Hubro said:
    danvm said:
    Agree, the M1 changed everything.  That's the reason I said that a X1 Nano (or X1 Carbon) with a M1 would be my perfect computer.  An excellent mobile processor with the best design and construction in a notebook.
    Just for clarification, the X1 Nano (as well as the X1 Carbon and the P1) are carbon fiber in the top and magnesium alloy in the bottom.  Maybe that's the reason a car can run over it, and still working.  Nice, don't you think?
    ...It's getting really boring, and for my part, it stops here.
    Unfortunately for the resident Wintel corporate shill, it never stops, he never stops and AI just loves the conflicts he produces in his ridiculous posts as people respond and that creates activity (which in turn results in more $$), as if *any* of us come to this forum to have someone sell us on another company's products. It's just pathetic and people like that ruin what *could* otherwise be a fun discussion forum. I just wish people would stop replying to him (and his brethren ilk) so I wouldn't have to suffer his insufferable lunacy in replies. Sigh.
    Just to clarify, most of my devices in my household are from Apple.  So the "Wintel corporate shill" don't apply to me, but neither I'm an "Apple shill", since I have zero emotional attachment to any of my Apple devices.  And neither I have devices from Lenovo.  But in my line of work I have to work with all kind of devices and brands, from notebooks to professional workstations.

    If you read my posts you'll see why, IMO, ThinkPads are better designed compared to Apple notebooks.  Does it means that Apple devices are bad?  But neither are perfect, and if you want a recent example, just look at the butterfly keyboards.  Based in my experience, some Apple notebooks are better than ThinkPad and viceversa.  But in construction, and design, I give the advantage to ThinkPads.  The iMac is the best All-In-One in the market, while the Mini have some competition from the HP Z1 and the ThinkStation Tiny.  The iPad is the best tablet, until you add a keyboard + trackpad, where the Surface Pro does a better job.  And the HP Z-workstations and Lenovo ThinkStations maybe betterthan the Mac Pro, depending in the usage.

    Does this sound to you pathetic and from a Wintel corporate shill?  Hope not.  Again, most of my posts are based in what I experienced in the field.  When you are outside the Apple bubble you can see what's good and bad with Apple and with other devices.  And I have zero issues praising or criticizing any of them.  But if you think that every Apple device is absolutely better than other vendors, then you may need to expand the list of devices you use, and it may surprise you what you may find.  

    There's a PC market, and then there's a Mac market, and just like the smartphone where it's iPhone vs everyone else, Apple is growing its customer base, and interestingly, its margins.

    What does that tell you about Apple, and specifically Apple product design, and the customer? You seem to fail to see the big picture, hence why your postings come across as unconvincing.

    What's the big picture?

    That Apple is disrupting the PC business.

    https://mondaynote.com/apple-silicon-m1-disruption-af11f639103a
    Yes, Apple design are very good, but like I posted before, they are not perfect, neither the only one doing good designs.  There are cases where other vendors are better than Apple.  Look at the example I gave of the X1 Nano.  An easy to service 2lb notebook, with spill resistant keyboard and test for military specifications.  Are we going to ignore that because is not from Apple?  

    And yes, the M1 is big.  But my comments were not related to M1 / Intel / AMD, so I don't understand why bring that up.  And even though M1 is an excellent chip, it doesn't makes Apple devices perfect.  Do you want to the best integration with the MS enterprise / business ecosystem, which is the most popular by far?  You need a Windows PC.  Do you need Nvidia GPU's for CUDA applications?  You need a PC.  Do you want the best gaming experience in the market?  You need a PC.  There are just three examples of many others.  And, again, that doesn't means that Apple are bad devices, but neither are perfect, even with the M1 chip.  Like I said before, when you see the big picture, you'll find other vendors are doing excellent devices too. 
    edited May 1 GeorgeBMacmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 246 of 291
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,263member
    tmay said:
    melgross said:
    melgross said:
    melgross said:
    thedba said:
    For all those defending the "Everything Glued together & soldered together" assembly of the MacBooks by saying "Nobody ever upgraded a computer", Andrew just called bull!

    His biggest (only?) complaint about his M1 MacBook Air is that it can't meet his needs because it is frozen in time with what it came with when he bought it -- versus his MacPro which grew and developed with enhancements as his needs, wants and requirements grew.

    Likewise, my 9 year old i7 Thinkpad runs perfectly well and meets all of my needs -- because it's been upgraded to a 500Gb SSD, 16Gb Ram and an internal harddrive used for ongoing, real time backups.  Without those cheap and very simple to install (5 minutes or less) upgrades the machine would have been scrap
    Statements such as this remind me of my now deceased father who used to long for the days of when he could service his car himself. 
    I sometimes wonder what he would say seeing today's Teslas or Priuses. 

    Either way, all technology will move towards this way of doing things with ARM architecture taking up more space. Apple is just ahead of the curve on this. 

    I don't see the logic behind equating an inability to service or upgrade something as synonymous with better products.
    For many products, a lack of upgradability means a smaller, sealed product which is more reliable and easier to carry around. In my own business, we generally had about 32 Macs. We would replace about a third every year, moving them down a tier in production until the forth year, when we either sold them or gave them away to employees. So we replaced all of our Macs over a three year period. Every other production house I knew did pretty much the same thing. My wife worked at Citicorp for 28 years, and she got a new computer every three years too, and most corporations are on a three year replacement schedule.

    we found that it cost more, and was a loss in productivity, to upgrade machines. For a short while that was a popular thing, as you could get excellent CPU upgrades for the Mac, significantly enhancing performance, something that never worked well with Windows machines. What we found best was to just get machines equipped the way we needed them in the first place. If you’re making real money with your machine, either as an individual, or as a corporation, you get to deduct many expenses, such as cost of equipment in several ways for tax purposes, making your purchases less expensive over the life of the machine. Discuss it with your accountant.

    increasing RAM can help, but not by nearly as much as you think. The reason why some claim this as a big thing is because they bought the lowest config in the beginning, which was below their needs. So yes, increasing it made a noticeable difference. But if you buy what you need in the beginning, adding more leads to a minor difference. Same thing with drives. Don’t skimp on a startup drive. Smaller drives and storage is always slower. That’s true for hard drives, SSD’s and internal NAND storage. There are real reasons for that. Figure out what you really need, and double it. Be realistic about both. Remember these days that 512 NAND will be almost twice as fast as 256, and that 1TB doesn’t add much speed above that. But I always get 1TB startup because you really shouldn’t keep NAND more than about 60% full for good NAND long term health.

    there are a bunch of common sense rules to follow if you understand your needs and how to satisfy them. Upgrading in mid stream rarely gets you much unless you starved your machine in the beginning.

    I agree.   a completely sealed, integrated, non-upgradeable device makes sense in something so small and portable like an iPhone or maybe even an iPad.
    But in a larger machine that serves no functional purpose -- except for planned obsolescence.  And, the larger the machine the more sense it makes to make it upgradeable -- such as Andrew's MacPro in this instance.
    I do wish that people would stop talking about planned obsolescence. That’s very rarely a thing. Things become obsolete because technology passes them by. What was a top line machine when bought becomes a low end machine in a few years. That’s the way technology works. New software often doesn’t work on old machines, often it’s not because of a lack of RAM, or drive space, though, yes, sometimes it is.

    mostly advances in technology on processors and related technology means that an OS has new features, ir is even redesigned. Sometimes new security protocols cuts software out of the loop. There are many reasons. But again, don’t be cheap, and figure you can get away with less, when what you do, or will be doing at some point, requires more. That’s a sure way to obsolete a machine. But, more RAM and bigger drives likely won’t save you, because the processor and bus are too slow. So you get a machine with a PCIe 2 bus (years ago, of course) and you found, two years later that all new upgrades are now PCIe 3, and that PCIe 2 upgrades are discontinued, and you have to scramble to fine one on eBay or some such place. And you can’t play the new games properly on it anyway, or do much else.

    so being an upgradablecmachine doesn’t always help. Who has a separate modem in their computer these days? No one. So you can’t upgrade that either. We could go on.

    It is true that, eventually, a machine reaches a point where its core components (mother board, etc.) just can't hack it anymore.  But I don't see the logic in hurrying that by gluing and soldering the typically upgradeable components like RAM and Harddrive.  That does not benefit the customer in any meaningful way.

    Another aspect of making the SSD upgradeable is data security:  If a machine dies (say by drowning in a Starbucks) a socketed SSD can be pulled and the data on it recovered.  That is not the case if it is soldered & glued to the motherboard.  Then your data dies with your machine.
    I take it that you’ve heard of backups? No responsible person with valuable data doesn’t backup. We (my company) stored data for some customers. We had three backups. One was in the area where we had our computer systems. One was in a room three floors above ours in the building the lab was in. And another was off site altogether, in another building several blocks away. We also carried millions in insurance just in the extremely unlikely situation that all three backups failed.

    Not a single person I know backs up their computer.
    Well one does...  But only because I installed a second harddrive in his desktop and started up "file history" for him.
    It's also one of the reasons why I like my 9 year old but upgraded Thinkpad:   I installed a second drive in it so that the data is automatically backed up.

    But, even for those who do run backups, unless they're done automatically, the backup is seldom fully current -- so the most valuable data (the most recent) tends to be lost.

    Strange though that you mention three backups -- that was my introduction to backups!
    in 1977, while working as an accountant, we accumulated a year's worth of production data from a newly implemented cost accounting system.   When I asked for a report so I could do some analysis we discovered that all three backups of it had were gone -- lost, damaged or accidentally written over.

    That's one of the reasons I'm so opposed to non-removeable drives -- I know there is only a single part of any computer that cannot in some way be replaced.  It's the most valuable part:  the data.

    If however, Apple would implement iCloud backups for Macs, that would take away one of my reasons for wanting removable SSDs.  I don't understand why they have not done that.


    FFS George, Apple has iCloud backups;


    "Tap Settings > [your name] > iCloud > Manage Storage, which will list how much iCloudstorage you're using and which apps are eating up the most storage. To automatically back up your device each day, turn on iCloud Backup via Settings > [your name] > iCloud > iCloud Backup and toggle iCloud Backup to on.

    You consistently amaze me with your misinformation...

    We're talking about Macs, not iPhones
    It works for Macs as well/

    https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204025

    You get 5 GB free, but that isn't enough to backup much of your data.

    2 TB will cost you $9.99 a month. You can buy an external drive from Amazon for less than the cost of a years iCloud service and better than that, it works as a Time Machine.

    https://www.amazon.com/s?k=wd+external+hard+drive&crid=3N6IYEQ79AEK3&sprefix=WD+,aps,241&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_1_3

    But of course, you don't want to use an external drive...because house fire. So you buy two drives, and store one either offsite or in a fireproof safe, rotating between the two.

    Gaslighting us again...

    edited May 1 watto_cobra
  • Reply 247 of 291
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,160member
    Hubro said:
    danvm said:
    Agree, the M1 changed everything.  That's the reason I said that a X1 Nano (or X1 Carbon) with a M1 would be my perfect computer.  An excellent mobile processor with the best design and construction in a notebook.
    Just for clarification, the X1 Nano (as well as the X1 Carbon and the P1) are carbon fiber in the top and magnesium alloy in the bottom.  Maybe that's the reason a car can run over it, and still working.  Nice, don't you think?
    ...It's getting really boring, and for my part, it stops here.
    Unfortunately for the resident Wintel corporate shill, it never stops, he never stops and AI just loves the conflicts he produces in his ridiculous posts as people respond and that creates activity (which in turn results in more $$), as if *any* of us come to this forum to have someone sell us on another company's products. It's just pathetic and people like that ruin what *could* otherwise be a fun discussion forum. I just wish people would stop replying to him (and his brethren ilk) so I wouldn't have to suffer his insufferable lunacy in replies. Sigh.

    I didn't realize the site was reserved for Apple Apologists....
    But Wintel shill? 
    No, just disproving false claims about using cheap glue and solder are not necessary to make a laptop thin, light or reliable.




    And you jumped straight to your thinking I was referring to *you* as the Wintel shill, not true at all. Thought it was obvious who the Wintel/Micro$haft shill was on this forum, just as obvious as who is the resident Android shill and who is the resident Google shill (none of which are you).

    Quite often you're one of my favourites in your comments, this thread not withstanding. Not at all interested in this current argument (either side), just wish it would end.
    I suppose that the Wintel/Micro$haft shill it's me, right?  ;) 

    I apologize if I offended you.  English is not my main language and maybe I posted something offensive.  At the end, my point is that other vendors, in this case, Lenovo makes great designs, for example the X1 Nano.  They didn't had to seal the device to make a light / think and durable notebook.  But that doesn't means that Apple had bad designs.  Again, most of my devices are from Apple and have no devices from Lenovo.  But the experience I had with them in my customers is excellent, and just post about it.  

    Peace...✌🏻
    GeorgeBMacmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 248 of 291
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,263member
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    danvm said:
    Hubro said:
    danvm said:
    Agree, the M1 changed everything.  That's the reason I said that a X1 Nano (or X1 Carbon) with a M1 would be my perfect computer.  An excellent mobile processor with the best design and construction in a notebook.
    Just for clarification, the X1 Nano (as well as the X1 Carbon and the P1) are carbon fiber in the top and magnesium alloy in the bottom.  Maybe that's the reason a car can run over it, and still working.  Nice, don't you think?
    ...It's getting really boring, and for my part, it stops here.
    Unfortunately for the resident Wintel corporate shill, it never stops, he never stops and AI just loves the conflicts he produces in his ridiculous posts as people respond and that creates activity (which in turn results in more $$), as if *any* of us come to this forum to have someone sell us on another company's products. It's just pathetic and people like that ruin what *could* otherwise be a fun discussion forum. I just wish people would stop replying to him (and his brethren ilk) so I wouldn't have to suffer his insufferable lunacy in replies. Sigh.
    Just to clarify, most of my devices in my household are from Apple.  So the "Wintel corporate shill" don't apply to me, but neither I'm an "Apple shill", since I have zero emotional attachment to any of my Apple devices.  And neither I have devices from Lenovo.  But in my line of work I have to work with all kind of devices and brands, from notebooks to professional workstations.

    If you read my posts you'll see why, IMO, ThinkPads are better designed compared to Apple notebooks.  Does it means that Apple devices are bad?  But neither are perfect, and if you want a recent example, just look at the butterfly keyboards.  Based in my experience, some Apple notebooks are better than ThinkPad and viceversa.  But in construction, and design, I give the advantage to ThinkPads.  The iMac is the best All-In-One in the market, while the Mini have some competition from the HP Z1 and the ThinkStation Tiny.  The iPad is the best tablet, until you add a keyboard + trackpad, where the Surface Pro does a better job.  And the HP Z-workstations and Lenovo ThinkStations maybe betterthan the Mac Pro, depending in the usage.

    Does this sound to you pathetic and from a Wintel corporate shill?  Hope not.  Again, most of my posts are based in what I experienced in the field.  When you are outside the Apple bubble you can see what's good and bad with Apple and with other devices.  And I have zero issues praising or criticizing any of them.  But if you think that every Apple device is absolutely better than other vendors, then you may need to expand the list of devices you use, and it may surprise you what you may find.  

    There's a PC market, and then there's a Mac market, and just like the smartphone where it's iPhone vs everyone else, Apple is growing its customer base, and interestingly, its margins.

    What does that tell you about Apple, and specifically Apple product design, and the customer? You seem to fail to see the big picture, hence why your postings come across as unconvincing.

    What's the big picture?

    That Apple is disrupting the PC business.

    https://mondaynote.com/apple-silicon-m1-disruption-af11f639103a
    Yes, Apple design are very good, but like I posted before, they are not perfect, neither the only one doing good designs.  There are cases where other vendors are better than Apple.  Look at the example I gave of the X1 Nano.  An easy to service 2lb notebook, with spill resistant keyboard and test for military specifications.  Are we going to ignore that because is not from Apple?  

    And yes, the M1 is big.  But my comments were not related to M1 / Intel / AMD, so I don't understand why bring that up.  And even though M1 is an excellent chip, it doesn't makes Apple devices perfect.  Do you want to the best integration with the MS enterprise / business ecosystem, which is the most popular by far?  You need a Windows PC.  Do you need Nvidia GPU's for CUDA applications?  You need a PC.  Do you want the best gaming experience in the market?  You need a PC.  There are just three examples of many others.  And, again, that doesn't means that Apple are bad devices, but neither are perfect, even with the M1 chip.  Like I said before, when you see the big picture, you'll find other vendors are doing excellent devices too. 

    Yeah, if you need PC, then buy a PC, but don't pretend that the Mac buying public isn't aware of the disruptive benefits of Apple Silicon, so your goalposts that are limited to the build of very specific PC's, aren't very relevant.

    I have a PC, a Lenovo D20 in fact, running Windows 7 for my MCAD software, so I understand about the needs of PC users. But I can also run Autodesk Fusion 360 on an M series Mac, in Rosetta, quite fine and get the job done, so I'm really at a place where I'm ready to leave the PC entirely.

    watto_cobra
  • Reply 249 of 291
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,160member
    tmay said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    danvm said:
    Hubro said:
    danvm said:
    Agree, the M1 changed everything.  That's the reason I said that a X1 Nano (or X1 Carbon) with a M1 would be my perfect computer.  An excellent mobile processor with the best design and construction in a notebook.
    Just for clarification, the X1 Nano (as well as the X1 Carbon and the P1) are carbon fiber in the top and magnesium alloy in the bottom.  Maybe that's the reason a car can run over it, and still working.  Nice, don't you think?
    ...It's getting really boring, and for my part, it stops here.
    Unfortunately for the resident Wintel corporate shill, it never stops, he never stops and AI just loves the conflicts he produces in his ridiculous posts as people respond and that creates activity (which in turn results in more $$), as if *any* of us come to this forum to have someone sell us on another company's products. It's just pathetic and people like that ruin what *could* otherwise be a fun discussion forum. I just wish people would stop replying to him (and his brethren ilk) so I wouldn't have to suffer his insufferable lunacy in replies. Sigh.
    Just to clarify, most of my devices in my household are from Apple.  So the "Wintel corporate shill" don't apply to me, but neither I'm an "Apple shill", since I have zero emotional attachment to any of my Apple devices.  And neither I have devices from Lenovo.  But in my line of work I have to work with all kind of devices and brands, from notebooks to professional workstations.

    If you read my posts you'll see why, IMO, ThinkPads are better designed compared to Apple notebooks.  Does it means that Apple devices are bad?  But neither are perfect, and if you want a recent example, just look at the butterfly keyboards.  Based in my experience, some Apple notebooks are better than ThinkPad and viceversa.  But in construction, and design, I give the advantage to ThinkPads.  The iMac is the best All-In-One in the market, while the Mini have some competition from the HP Z1 and the ThinkStation Tiny.  The iPad is the best tablet, until you add a keyboard + trackpad, where the Surface Pro does a better job.  And the HP Z-workstations and Lenovo ThinkStations maybe betterthan the Mac Pro, depending in the usage.

    Does this sound to you pathetic and from a Wintel corporate shill?  Hope not.  Again, most of my posts are based in what I experienced in the field.  When you are outside the Apple bubble you can see what's good and bad with Apple and with other devices.  And I have zero issues praising or criticizing any of them.  But if you think that every Apple device is absolutely better than other vendors, then you may need to expand the list of devices you use, and it may surprise you what you may find.  

    There's a PC market, and then there's a Mac market, and just like the smartphone where it's iPhone vs everyone else, Apple is growing its customer base, and interestingly, its margins.

    What does that tell you about Apple, and specifically Apple product design, and the customer? You seem to fail to see the big picture, hence why your postings come across as unconvincing.

    What's the big picture?

    That Apple is disrupting the PC business.

    https://mondaynote.com/apple-silicon-m1-disruption-af11f639103a
    Yes, Apple design are very good, but like I posted before, they are not perfect, neither the only one doing good designs.  There are cases where other vendors are better than Apple.  Look at the example I gave of the X1 Nano.  An easy to service 2lb notebook, with spill resistant keyboard and test for military specifications.  Are we going to ignore that because is not from Apple?  

    And yes, the M1 is big.  But my comments were not related to M1 / Intel / AMD, so I don't understand why bring that up.  And even though M1 is an excellent chip, it doesn't makes Apple devices perfect.  Do you want to the best integration with the MS enterprise / business ecosystem, which is the most popular by far?  You need a Windows PC.  Do you need Nvidia GPU's for CUDA applications?  You need a PC.  Do you want the best gaming experience in the market?  You need a PC.  There are just three examples of many others.  And, again, that doesn't means that Apple are bad devices, but neither are perfect, even with the M1 chip.  Like I said before, when you see the big picture, you'll find other vendors are doing excellent devices too. 

    Yeah, if you need PC, then buy a PC, but don't pretend that the Mac buying public isn't aware of the disruptive benefits of Apple Silicon, so your goalposts that are limited to the build of very specific PC's, aren't very relevant.

    I have a PC, a Lenovo D20 in fact, running Windows 7 for my MCAD software, so I understand about the needs of PC users. But I can also run Autodesk Fusion 360 on an M series Mac, in Rosetta, quite fine and get the job done, so I'm really at a place where I'm ready to leave the PC entirely.

    Again, my original comments were not about the M1.  So I still don't know why your bring them to the discussion.  Even Gruber had to comment about the X1 Nano,

    Daring Fireball: ThinkPad X1 Nano: Lenovo's 2-Pound Laptop

    He even posted "It just can’t stand for long that Apple is so far behind the PC state-of-the-art in lightweight laptops."  Again, Apple have good designs, but they are not perfect.
    edited May 1 GeorgeBMacmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 250 of 291
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,263member
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    danvm said:
    Hubro said:
    danvm said:
    Agree, the M1 changed everything.  That's the reason I said that a X1 Nano (or X1 Carbon) with a M1 would be my perfect computer.  An excellent mobile processor with the best design and construction in a notebook.
    Just for clarification, the X1 Nano (as well as the X1 Carbon and the P1) are carbon fiber in the top and magnesium alloy in the bottom.  Maybe that's the reason a car can run over it, and still working.  Nice, don't you think?
    ...It's getting really boring, and for my part, it stops here.
    Unfortunately for the resident Wintel corporate shill, it never stops, he never stops and AI just loves the conflicts he produces in his ridiculous posts as people respond and that creates activity (which in turn results in more $$), as if *any* of us come to this forum to have someone sell us on another company's products. It's just pathetic and people like that ruin what *could* otherwise be a fun discussion forum. I just wish people would stop replying to him (and his brethren ilk) so I wouldn't have to suffer his insufferable lunacy in replies. Sigh.
    Just to clarify, most of my devices in my household are from Apple.  So the "Wintel corporate shill" don't apply to me, but neither I'm an "Apple shill", since I have zero emotional attachment to any of my Apple devices.  And neither I have devices from Lenovo.  But in my line of work I have to work with all kind of devices and brands, from notebooks to professional workstations.

    If you read my posts you'll see why, IMO, ThinkPads are better designed compared to Apple notebooks.  Does it means that Apple devices are bad?  But neither are perfect, and if you want a recent example, just look at the butterfly keyboards.  Based in my experience, some Apple notebooks are better than ThinkPad and viceversa.  But in construction, and design, I give the advantage to ThinkPads.  The iMac is the best All-In-One in the market, while the Mini have some competition from the HP Z1 and the ThinkStation Tiny.  The iPad is the best tablet, until you add a keyboard + trackpad, where the Surface Pro does a better job.  And the HP Z-workstations and Lenovo ThinkStations maybe betterthan the Mac Pro, depending in the usage.

    Does this sound to you pathetic and from a Wintel corporate shill?  Hope not.  Again, most of my posts are based in what I experienced in the field.  When you are outside the Apple bubble you can see what's good and bad with Apple and with other devices.  And I have zero issues praising or criticizing any of them.  But if you think that every Apple device is absolutely better than other vendors, then you may need to expand the list of devices you use, and it may surprise you what you may find.  

    There's a PC market, and then there's a Mac market, and just like the smartphone where it's iPhone vs everyone else, Apple is growing its customer base, and interestingly, its margins.

    What does that tell you about Apple, and specifically Apple product design, and the customer? You seem to fail to see the big picture, hence why your postings come across as unconvincing.

    What's the big picture?

    That Apple is disrupting the PC business.

    https://mondaynote.com/apple-silicon-m1-disruption-af11f639103a
    Yes, Apple design are very good, but like I posted before, they are not perfect, neither the only one doing good designs.  There are cases where other vendors are better than Apple.  Look at the example I gave of the X1 Nano.  An easy to service 2lb notebook, with spill resistant keyboard and test for military specifications.  Are we going to ignore that because is not from Apple?  

    And yes, the M1 is big.  But my comments were not related to M1 / Intel / AMD, so I don't understand why bring that up.  And even though M1 is an excellent chip, it doesn't makes Apple devices perfect.  Do you want to the best integration with the MS enterprise / business ecosystem, which is the most popular by far?  You need a Windows PC.  Do you need Nvidia GPU's for CUDA applications?  You need a PC.  Do you want the best gaming experience in the market?  You need a PC.  There are just three examples of many others.  And, again, that doesn't means that Apple are bad devices, but neither are perfect, even with the M1 chip.  Like I said before, when you see the big picture, you'll find other vendors are doing excellent devices too. 

    Yeah, if you need PC, then buy a PC, but don't pretend that the Mac buying public isn't aware of the disruptive benefits of Apple Silicon, so your goalposts that are limited to the build of very specific PC's, aren't very relevant.

    I have a PC, a Lenovo D20 in fact, running Windows 7 for my MCAD software, so I understand about the needs of PC users. But I can also run Autodesk Fusion 360 on an M series Mac, in Rosetta, quite fine and get the job done, so I'm really at a place where I'm ready to leave the PC entirely.

    Again, my original comments were not about the M1.  So I still don't know why your bring them to the discussion.  Even Gruber had to comment about the X1 Nano,

    Daring Fireball: ThinkPad X1 Nano: Lenovo's 2-Pound Laptop

    He even posted "It just can’t stand for long that Apple is so far behind the PC state-of-the-art in lightweight laptops."  Again, Apple have good designs, but they are not perfect.
    Okay, and for the record, that sounds nice, and coming from Gruber, relevant. But given that the current Mac Book Air is primarily a processor upgrade from Intel, it is quite possible that Apple will have a Mac Book Air designed around the M series that is lighter, but I doubt that Apple will get the weight much under where it is.

    Still, I doubt that even Gruber would not purchase a Mac Book Air due to its weight, but for the M series processor.
    edited May 1 watto_cobra
  • Reply 251 of 291
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,160member
    tmay said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    danvm said:
    Hubro said:
    danvm said:
    Agree, the M1 changed everything.  That's the reason I said that a X1 Nano (or X1 Carbon) with a M1 would be my perfect computer.  An excellent mobile processor with the best design and construction in a notebook.
    Just for clarification, the X1 Nano (as well as the X1 Carbon and the P1) are carbon fiber in the top and magnesium alloy in the bottom.  Maybe that's the reason a car can run over it, and still working.  Nice, don't you think?
    ...It's getting really boring, and for my part, it stops here.
    Unfortunately for the resident Wintel corporate shill, it never stops, he never stops and AI just loves the conflicts he produces in his ridiculous posts as people respond and that creates activity (which in turn results in more $$), as if *any* of us come to this forum to have someone sell us on another company's products. It's just pathetic and people like that ruin what *could* otherwise be a fun discussion forum. I just wish people would stop replying to him (and his brethren ilk) so I wouldn't have to suffer his insufferable lunacy in replies. Sigh.
    Just to clarify, most of my devices in my household are from Apple.  So the "Wintel corporate shill" don't apply to me, but neither I'm an "Apple shill", since I have zero emotional attachment to any of my Apple devices.  And neither I have devices from Lenovo.  But in my line of work I have to work with all kind of devices and brands, from notebooks to professional workstations.

    If you read my posts you'll see why, IMO, ThinkPads are better designed compared to Apple notebooks.  Does it means that Apple devices are bad?  But neither are perfect, and if you want a recent example, just look at the butterfly keyboards.  Based in my experience, some Apple notebooks are better than ThinkPad and viceversa.  But in construction, and design, I give the advantage to ThinkPads.  The iMac is the best All-In-One in the market, while the Mini have some competition from the HP Z1 and the ThinkStation Tiny.  The iPad is the best tablet, until you add a keyboard + trackpad, where the Surface Pro does a better job.  And the HP Z-workstations and Lenovo ThinkStations maybe betterthan the Mac Pro, depending in the usage.

    Does this sound to you pathetic and from a Wintel corporate shill?  Hope not.  Again, most of my posts are based in what I experienced in the field.  When you are outside the Apple bubble you can see what's good and bad with Apple and with other devices.  And I have zero issues praising or criticizing any of them.  But if you think that every Apple device is absolutely better than other vendors, then you may need to expand the list of devices you use, and it may surprise you what you may find.  

    There's a PC market, and then there's a Mac market, and just like the smartphone where it's iPhone vs everyone else, Apple is growing its customer base, and interestingly, its margins.

    What does that tell you about Apple, and specifically Apple product design, and the customer? You seem to fail to see the big picture, hence why your postings come across as unconvincing.

    What's the big picture?

    That Apple is disrupting the PC business.

    https://mondaynote.com/apple-silicon-m1-disruption-af11f639103a
    Yes, Apple design are very good, but like I posted before, they are not perfect, neither the only one doing good designs.  There are cases where other vendors are better than Apple.  Look at the example I gave of the X1 Nano.  An easy to service 2lb notebook, with spill resistant keyboard and test for military specifications.  Are we going to ignore that because is not from Apple?  

    And yes, the M1 is big.  But my comments were not related to M1 / Intel / AMD, so I don't understand why bring that up.  And even though M1 is an excellent chip, it doesn't makes Apple devices perfect.  Do you want to the best integration with the MS enterprise / business ecosystem, which is the most popular by far?  You need a Windows PC.  Do you need Nvidia GPU's for CUDA applications?  You need a PC.  Do you want the best gaming experience in the market?  You need a PC.  There are just three examples of many others.  And, again, that doesn't means that Apple are bad devices, but neither are perfect, even with the M1 chip.  Like I said before, when you see the big picture, you'll find other vendors are doing excellent devices too. 

    Yeah, if you need PC, then buy a PC, but don't pretend that the Mac buying public isn't aware of the disruptive benefits of Apple Silicon, so your goalposts that are limited to the build of very specific PC's, aren't very relevant.

    I have a PC, a Lenovo D20 in fact, running Windows 7 for my MCAD software, so I understand about the needs of PC users. But I can also run Autodesk Fusion 360 on an M series Mac, in Rosetta, quite fine and get the job done, so I'm really at a place where I'm ready to leave the PC entirely.

    Again, my original comments were not about the M1.  So I still don't know why your bring them to the discussion.  Even Gruber had to comment about the X1 Nano,

    Daring Fireball: ThinkPad X1 Nano: Lenovo's 2-Pound Laptop

    He even posted "It just can’t stand for long that Apple is so far behind the PC state-of-the-art in lightweight laptops."  Again, Apple have good designs, but they are not perfect.
    Okay, and for the record, that sounds nice, and coming from Gruber, relevant. But given that the current Mac Book Air is primarily a processor upgrade from Intel, it is quite possible that Apple will have a Mac Book Air designed around the M series that is lighter.

    Still, I doubt that even Gruber would not purchase a Mac Book Air due to its weight, but for the M series processor.
    Maybe I'm missing something, but the Gruber comment is relevant because is coming from him.  But mine, that was in the same line of his, was wrong?  I suppose that Gruber is also a Wintel/Micro$haft shill, since like me, most of his devices are from Apple and at the same time, saw the good design of the X1 Nano.  Maybe he is a worst Wintel/Micro$haft shill, considering he said "It just can’t stand for long that Apple is so far behind the PC state-of-the-art in lightweight laptops."  

    Maybe you can learn from Gruber (and me 
    :# ) and appreciate a good design even though is not from Apple.

    For the record, I'm patiently waiting for the next revision of the Macbook Air to replace my MBP.  
    :D 


  • Reply 252 of 291
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,263member
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    danvm said:
    Hubro said:
    danvm said:
    Agree, the M1 changed everything.  That's the reason I said that a X1 Nano (or X1 Carbon) with a M1 would be my perfect computer.  An excellent mobile processor with the best design and construction in a notebook.
    Just for clarification, the X1 Nano (as well as the X1 Carbon and the P1) are carbon fiber in the top and magnesium alloy in the bottom.  Maybe that's the reason a car can run over it, and still working.  Nice, don't you think?
    ...It's getting really boring, and for my part, it stops here.
    Unfortunately for the resident Wintel corporate shill, it never stops, he never stops and AI just loves the conflicts he produces in his ridiculous posts as people respond and that creates activity (which in turn results in more $$), as if *any* of us come to this forum to have someone sell us on another company's products. It's just pathetic and people like that ruin what *could* otherwise be a fun discussion forum. I just wish people would stop replying to him (and his brethren ilk) so I wouldn't have to suffer his insufferable lunacy in replies. Sigh.
    Just to clarify, most of my devices in my household are from Apple.  So the "Wintel corporate shill" don't apply to me, but neither I'm an "Apple shill", since I have zero emotional attachment to any of my Apple devices.  And neither I have devices from Lenovo.  But in my line of work I have to work with all kind of devices and brands, from notebooks to professional workstations.

    If you read my posts you'll see why, IMO, ThinkPads are better designed compared to Apple notebooks.  Does it means that Apple devices are bad?  But neither are perfect, and if you want a recent example, just look at the butterfly keyboards.  Based in my experience, some Apple notebooks are better than ThinkPad and viceversa.  But in construction, and design, I give the advantage to ThinkPads.  The iMac is the best All-In-One in the market, while the Mini have some competition from the HP Z1 and the ThinkStation Tiny.  The iPad is the best tablet, until you add a keyboard + trackpad, where the Surface Pro does a better job.  And the HP Z-workstations and Lenovo ThinkStations maybe betterthan the Mac Pro, depending in the usage.

    Does this sound to you pathetic and from a Wintel corporate shill?  Hope not.  Again, most of my posts are based in what I experienced in the field.  When you are outside the Apple bubble you can see what's good and bad with Apple and with other devices.  And I have zero issues praising or criticizing any of them.  But if you think that every Apple device is absolutely better than other vendors, then you may need to expand the list of devices you use, and it may surprise you what you may find.  

    There's a PC market, and then there's a Mac market, and just like the smartphone where it's iPhone vs everyone else, Apple is growing its customer base, and interestingly, its margins.

    What does that tell you about Apple, and specifically Apple product design, and the customer? You seem to fail to see the big picture, hence why your postings come across as unconvincing.

    What's the big picture?

    That Apple is disrupting the PC business.

    https://mondaynote.com/apple-silicon-m1-disruption-af11f639103a
    Yes, Apple design are very good, but like I posted before, they are not perfect, neither the only one doing good designs.  There are cases where other vendors are better than Apple.  Look at the example I gave of the X1 Nano.  An easy to service 2lb notebook, with spill resistant keyboard and test for military specifications.  Are we going to ignore that because is not from Apple?  

    And yes, the M1 is big.  But my comments were not related to M1 / Intel / AMD, so I don't understand why bring that up.  And even though M1 is an excellent chip, it doesn't makes Apple devices perfect.  Do you want to the best integration with the MS enterprise / business ecosystem, which is the most popular by far?  You need a Windows PC.  Do you need Nvidia GPU's for CUDA applications?  You need a PC.  Do you want the best gaming experience in the market?  You need a PC.  There are just three examples of many others.  And, again, that doesn't means that Apple are bad devices, but neither are perfect, even with the M1 chip.  Like I said before, when you see the big picture, you'll find other vendors are doing excellent devices too. 

    Yeah, if you need PC, then buy a PC, but don't pretend that the Mac buying public isn't aware of the disruptive benefits of Apple Silicon, so your goalposts that are limited to the build of very specific PC's, aren't very relevant.

    I have a PC, a Lenovo D20 in fact, running Windows 7 for my MCAD software, so I understand about the needs of PC users. But I can also run Autodesk Fusion 360 on an M series Mac, in Rosetta, quite fine and get the job done, so I'm really at a place where I'm ready to leave the PC entirely.

    Again, my original comments were not about the M1.  So I still don't know why your bring them to the discussion.  Even Gruber had to comment about the X1 Nano,

    Daring Fireball: ThinkPad X1 Nano: Lenovo's 2-Pound Laptop

    He even posted "It just can’t stand for long that Apple is so far behind the PC state-of-the-art in lightweight laptops."  Again, Apple have good designs, but they are not perfect.
    Okay, and for the record, that sounds nice, and coming from Gruber, relevant. But given that the current Mac Book Air is primarily a processor upgrade from Intel, it is quite possible that Apple will have a Mac Book Air designed around the M series that is lighter.

    Still, I doubt that even Gruber would not purchase a Mac Book Air due to its weight, but for the M series processor.
    Maybe I'm missing something, but the Gruber comment is relevant because is coming from him.  But mine, that was in the same line of his, was wrong?  I suppose that Gruber is also a Wintel/Micro$haft shill, since like me, most of his devices are from Apple and at the same time, saw the good design of the X1 Nano.  Maybe he is a worst Wintel/Micro$haft shill, considering he said "It just can’t stand for long that Apple is so far behind the PC state-of-the-art in lightweight laptops."  

    Maybe you can learn from Gruber (and me  :# ) and appreciate a good design even though is not from Apple.

    For the record, I'm patiently waiting for the next revision of the Macbook Air to replace my MBP.   :D 


    I do appreciate the X1 Nano design, but I also see its downsides in performance compared to the Mac Book Air. Gruber likes the design, good for him, but do you think that he would buy the X1 Nano?

    No.

    What Gruber wants is for Apple to make a lighter Mac Book something in the same weight class as the X1 Nano. I see nothing wrong with that, just that it isn't as relevant to the existing marketplace as Apple sees it. Maybe that will change. 

    It isn't as if Apple can't do that, just that they haven't for marketing reasons.

    To put it bluntly, X1 Nano is hobbled by Intel.

    For the record, Apple's iPad Pro 12.9 is 1.51 lb, and that is essentially the same performance as the Mac Book Air, and includes the XDR screen. A Mac Book Air with XDR screen is what I expect for the next update, likely this fall. Will there be weight reductions? We'll have to wait and see, but unless Apple chooses to make a composite housing, they won't get close the the X1 nano in weight.

    I don't think that the extra half pound over the X1 Nano is hurting Mac Book Air sales.
    edited May 1 watto_cobra
  • Reply 253 of 291
    XedXed Posts: 967member
    tmay said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    danvm said:
    Hubro said:
    danvm said:
    Agree, the M1 changed everything.  That's the reason I said that a X1 Nano (or X1 Carbon) with a M1 would be my perfect computer.  An excellent mobile processor with the best design and construction in a notebook.
    Just for clarification, the X1 Nano (as well as the X1 Carbon and the P1) are carbon fiber in the top and magnesium alloy in the bottom.  Maybe that's the reason a car can run over it, and still working.  Nice, don't you think?
    ...It's getting really boring, and for my part, it stops here.
    Unfortunately for the resident Wintel corporate shill, it never stops, he never stops and AI just loves the conflicts he produces in his ridiculous posts as people respond and that creates activity (which in turn results in more $$), as if *any* of us come to this forum to have someone sell us on another company's products. It's just pathetic and people like that ruin what *could* otherwise be a fun discussion forum. I just wish people would stop replying to him (and his brethren ilk) so I wouldn't have to suffer his insufferable lunacy in replies. Sigh.
    Just to clarify, most of my devices in my household are from Apple.  So the "Wintel corporate shill" don't apply to me, but neither I'm an "Apple shill", since I have zero emotional attachment to any of my Apple devices.  And neither I have devices from Lenovo.  But in my line of work I have to work with all kind of devices and brands, from notebooks to professional workstations.

    If you read my posts you'll see why, IMO, ThinkPads are better designed compared to Apple notebooks.  Does it means that Apple devices are bad?  But neither are perfect, and if you want a recent example, just look at the butterfly keyboards.  Based in my experience, some Apple notebooks are better than ThinkPad and viceversa.  But in construction, and design, I give the advantage to ThinkPads.  The iMac is the best All-In-One in the market, while the Mini have some competition from the HP Z1 and the ThinkStation Tiny.  The iPad is the best tablet, until you add a keyboard + trackpad, where the Surface Pro does a better job.  And the HP Z-workstations and Lenovo ThinkStations maybe betterthan the Mac Pro, depending in the usage.

    Does this sound to you pathetic and from a Wintel corporate shill?  Hope not.  Again, most of my posts are based in what I experienced in the field.  When you are outside the Apple bubble you can see what's good and bad with Apple and with other devices.  And I have zero issues praising or criticizing any of them.  But if you think that every Apple device is absolutely better than other vendors, then you may need to expand the list of devices you use, and it may surprise you what you may find.  

    There's a PC market, and then there's a Mac market, and just like the smartphone where it's iPhone vs everyone else, Apple is growing its customer base, and interestingly, its margins.

    What does that tell you about Apple, and specifically Apple product design, and the customer? You seem to fail to see the big picture, hence why your postings come across as unconvincing.

    What's the big picture?

    That Apple is disrupting the PC business.

    https://mondaynote.com/apple-silicon-m1-disruption-af11f639103a
    Yes, Apple design are very good, but like I posted before, they are not perfect, neither the only one doing good designs.  There are cases where other vendors are better than Apple.  Look at the example I gave of the X1 Nano.  An easy to service 2lb notebook, with spill resistant keyboard and test for military specifications.  Are we going to ignore that because is not from Apple?  

    And yes, the M1 is big.  But my comments were not related to M1 / Intel / AMD, so I don't understand why bring that up.  And even though M1 is an excellent chip, it doesn't makes Apple devices perfect.  Do you want to the best integration with the MS enterprise / business ecosystem, which is the most popular by far?  You need a Windows PC.  Do you need Nvidia GPU's for CUDA applications?  You need a PC.  Do you want the best gaming experience in the market?  You need a PC.  There are just three examples of many others.  And, again, that doesn't means that Apple are bad devices, but neither are perfect, even with the M1 chip.  Like I said before, when you see the big picture, you'll find other vendors are doing excellent devices too. 

    Yeah, if you need PC, then buy a PC, but don't pretend that the Mac buying public isn't aware of the disruptive benefits of Apple Silicon, so your goalposts that are limited to the build of very specific PC's, aren't very relevant.

    I have a PC, a Lenovo D20 in fact, running Windows 7 for my MCAD software, so I understand about the needs of PC users. But I can also run Autodesk Fusion 360 on an M series Mac, in Rosetta, quite fine and get the job done, so I'm really at a place where I'm ready to leave the PC entirely.

    Again, my original comments were not about the M1.  So I still don't know why your bring them to the discussion.  Even Gruber had to comment about the X1 Nano,

    Daring Fireball: ThinkPad X1 Nano: Lenovo's 2-Pound Laptop

    He even posted "It just can’t stand for long that Apple is so far behind the PC state-of-the-art in lightweight laptops."  Again, Apple have good designs, but they are not perfect.
    Okay, and for the record, that sounds nice, and coming from Gruber, relevant. But given that the current Mac Book Air is primarily a processor upgrade from Intel, it is quite possible that Apple will have a Mac Book Air designed around the M series that is lighter.

    Still, I doubt that even Gruber would not purchase a Mac Book Air due to its weight, but for the M series processor.
    Maybe I'm missing something, but the Gruber comment is relevant because is coming from him.  But mine, that was in the same line of his, was wrong?  I suppose that Gruber is also a Wintel/Micro$haft shill, since like me, most of his devices are from Apple and at the same time, saw the good design of the X1 Nano.  Maybe he is a worst Wintel/Micro$haft shill, considering he said "It just can’t stand for long that Apple is so far behind the PC state-of-the-art in lightweight laptops."  

    Maybe you can learn from Gruber (and me  :# ) and appreciate a good design even though is not from Apple.

    For the record, I'm patiently waiting for the next revision of the Macbook Air to replace my MBP.   :D 


    I do appreciate the X1 Nano design, but I also see its downsides in performance compared to the Mac Book Air. Gruber likes the design, good for him, but do you think that he would buy the X1 Nano?

    No.

    What Gruber wants is for Apple to make a lighter Mac Book something in the same weight class as the X1 Nano. I see nothing wrong with that, just that it isn't as relevant to the existing marketplace as Apple sees it. Maybe that will change. 

    It isn't as if Apple can't do that, just that they haven't for marketing reasons.
    There's give and take and what Apple gives the M1 MBA is worth what would be taken if I had to move to a ThinkPad X1 Nano with worse battery life, which might be acceptable if it was considerably faster than the M1 MBA, but it's not even close.

    And then there's the less than stellar audio and worse display, and I seem to recall one review that showed how parts of the X1 Nano was flimsy, which is something you don't get with the M1 MBA. Now, if I had to pick a dedicated Win laptop for travel I'd probably pick the X1 Nano, but not if using a Mac was an option.

    https://www.tomsguide.com/reviews/lenovo-thinkpad-x1-nano
    tmaywatto_cobra
  • Reply 254 of 291
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,263member
    Xed said:
    tmay said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    danvm said:
    Hubro said:
    danvm said:
    Agree, the M1 changed everything.  That's the reason I said that a X1 Nano (or X1 Carbon) with a M1 would be my perfect computer.  An excellent mobile processor with the best design and construction in a notebook.
    Just for clarification, the X1 Nano (as well as the X1 Carbon and the P1) are carbon fiber in the top and magnesium alloy in the bottom.  Maybe that's the reason a car can run over it, and still working.  Nice, don't you think?
    ...It's getting really boring, and for my part, it stops here.
    Unfortunately for the resident Wintel corporate shill, it never stops, he never stops and AI just loves the conflicts he produces in his ridiculous posts as people respond and that creates activity (which in turn results in more $$), as if *any* of us come to this forum to have someone sell us on another company's products. It's just pathetic and people like that ruin what *could* otherwise be a fun discussion forum. I just wish people would stop replying to him (and his brethren ilk) so I wouldn't have to suffer his insufferable lunacy in replies. Sigh.
    Just to clarify, most of my devices in my household are from Apple.  So the "Wintel corporate shill" don't apply to me, but neither I'm an "Apple shill", since I have zero emotional attachment to any of my Apple devices.  And neither I have devices from Lenovo.  But in my line of work I have to work with all kind of devices and brands, from notebooks to professional workstations.

    If you read my posts you'll see why, IMO, ThinkPads are better designed compared to Apple notebooks.  Does it means that Apple devices are bad?  But neither are perfect, and if you want a recent example, just look at the butterfly keyboards.  Based in my experience, some Apple notebooks are better than ThinkPad and viceversa.  But in construction, and design, I give the advantage to ThinkPads.  The iMac is the best All-In-One in the market, while the Mini have some competition from the HP Z1 and the ThinkStation Tiny.  The iPad is the best tablet, until you add a keyboard + trackpad, where the Surface Pro does a better job.  And the HP Z-workstations and Lenovo ThinkStations maybe betterthan the Mac Pro, depending in the usage.

    Does this sound to you pathetic and from a Wintel corporate shill?  Hope not.  Again, most of my posts are based in what I experienced in the field.  When you are outside the Apple bubble you can see what's good and bad with Apple and with other devices.  And I have zero issues praising or criticizing any of them.  But if you think that every Apple device is absolutely better than other vendors, then you may need to expand the list of devices you use, and it may surprise you what you may find.  

    There's a PC market, and then there's a Mac market, and just like the smartphone where it's iPhone vs everyone else, Apple is growing its customer base, and interestingly, its margins.

    What does that tell you about Apple, and specifically Apple product design, and the customer? You seem to fail to see the big picture, hence why your postings come across as unconvincing.

    What's the big picture?

    That Apple is disrupting the PC business.

    https://mondaynote.com/apple-silicon-m1-disruption-af11f639103a
    Yes, Apple design are very good, but like I posted before, they are not perfect, neither the only one doing good designs.  There are cases where other vendors are better than Apple.  Look at the example I gave of the X1 Nano.  An easy to service 2lb notebook, with spill resistant keyboard and test for military specifications.  Are we going to ignore that because is not from Apple?  

    And yes, the M1 is big.  But my comments were not related to M1 / Intel / AMD, so I don't understand why bring that up.  And even though M1 is an excellent chip, it doesn't makes Apple devices perfect.  Do you want to the best integration with the MS enterprise / business ecosystem, which is the most popular by far?  You need a Windows PC.  Do you need Nvidia GPU's for CUDA applications?  You need a PC.  Do you want the best gaming experience in the market?  You need a PC.  There are just three examples of many others.  And, again, that doesn't means that Apple are bad devices, but neither are perfect, even with the M1 chip.  Like I said before, when you see the big picture, you'll find other vendors are doing excellent devices too. 

    Yeah, if you need PC, then buy a PC, but don't pretend that the Mac buying public isn't aware of the disruptive benefits of Apple Silicon, so your goalposts that are limited to the build of very specific PC's, aren't very relevant.

    I have a PC, a Lenovo D20 in fact, running Windows 7 for my MCAD software, so I understand about the needs of PC users. But I can also run Autodesk Fusion 360 on an M series Mac, in Rosetta, quite fine and get the job done, so I'm really at a place where I'm ready to leave the PC entirely.

    Again, my original comments were not about the M1.  So I still don't know why your bring them to the discussion.  Even Gruber had to comment about the X1 Nano,

    Daring Fireball: ThinkPad X1 Nano: Lenovo's 2-Pound Laptop

    He even posted "It just can’t stand for long that Apple is so far behind the PC state-of-the-art in lightweight laptops."  Again, Apple have good designs, but they are not perfect.
    Okay, and for the record, that sounds nice, and coming from Gruber, relevant. But given that the current Mac Book Air is primarily a processor upgrade from Intel, it is quite possible that Apple will have a Mac Book Air designed around the M series that is lighter.

    Still, I doubt that even Gruber would not purchase a Mac Book Air due to its weight, but for the M series processor.
    Maybe I'm missing something, but the Gruber comment is relevant because is coming from him.  But mine, that was in the same line of his, was wrong?  I suppose that Gruber is also a Wintel/Micro$haft shill, since like me, most of his devices are from Apple and at the same time, saw the good design of the X1 Nano.  Maybe he is a worst Wintel/Micro$haft shill, considering he said "It just can’t stand for long that Apple is so far behind the PC state-of-the-art in lightweight laptops."  

    Maybe you can learn from Gruber (and me  :# ) and appreciate a good design even though is not from Apple.

    For the record, I'm patiently waiting for the next revision of the Macbook Air to replace my MBP.   :D 


    I do appreciate the X1 Nano design, but I also see its downsides in performance compared to the Mac Book Air. Gruber likes the design, good for him, but do you think that he would buy the X1 Nano?

    No.

    What Gruber wants is for Apple to make a lighter Mac Book something in the same weight class as the X1 Nano. I see nothing wrong with that, just that it isn't as relevant to the existing marketplace as Apple sees it. Maybe that will change. 

    It isn't as if Apple can't do that, just that they haven't for marketing reasons.
    There's give and take and what Apple gives the M1 MBA is worth what would be taken if I had to move to a ThinkPad X1 Nano with worse battery life, which might be acceptable if it was considerably faster than the M1 MBA, but it's not even close.

    And then there's the less than stellar audio and worse display, and I seem to recall one review that showed how parts of the X1 Nano was flimsy, which is something you don't get with the M1 MBA. Now, if I had to pick a dedicated Win laptop for travel I'd probably pick the X1 Nano, but not if using a Mac was an option.

    https://www.tomsguide.com/reviews/lenovo-thinkpad-x1-nano
    Yeah, I've read a few of the reviews. Reminds me of the Netbook era, where companies were trying to ship small, inexpensive notebooks, which ended up being abominable in actual use, and Netbooks were murdered when the first Mac Book Air arrived.

    I'll give credit to Lenovo for the carbon fiber housing, but little else of the X1 Nano.

    FFS, Apple will probably have Final Cut running on the M series soon enough, that editing 4k ProRes on a Mac Book Air is actually a thing.
    edited May 1 watto_cobra
  • Reply 255 of 291
    XedXed Posts: 967member
    tmay said:
    Xed said:
    tmay said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    danvm said:
    Hubro said:
    danvm said:
    Agree, the M1 changed everything.  That's the reason I said that a X1 Nano (or X1 Carbon) with a M1 would be my perfect computer.  An excellent mobile processor with the best design and construction in a notebook.
    Just for clarification, the X1 Nano (as well as the X1 Carbon and the P1) are carbon fiber in the top and magnesium alloy in the bottom.  Maybe that's the reason a car can run over it, and still working.  Nice, don't you think?
    ...It's getting really boring, and for my part, it stops here.
    Unfortunately for the resident Wintel corporate shill, it never stops, he never stops and AI just loves the conflicts he produces in his ridiculous posts as people respond and that creates activity (which in turn results in more $$), as if *any* of us come to this forum to have someone sell us on another company's products. It's just pathetic and people like that ruin what *could* otherwise be a fun discussion forum. I just wish people would stop replying to him (and his brethren ilk) so I wouldn't have to suffer his insufferable lunacy in replies. Sigh.
    Just to clarify, most of my devices in my household are from Apple.  So the "Wintel corporate shill" don't apply to me, but neither I'm an "Apple shill", since I have zero emotional attachment to any of my Apple devices.  And neither I have devices from Lenovo.  But in my line of work I have to work with all kind of devices and brands, from notebooks to professional workstations.

    If you read my posts you'll see why, IMO, ThinkPads are better designed compared to Apple notebooks.  Does it means that Apple devices are bad?  But neither are perfect, and if you want a recent example, just look at the butterfly keyboards.  Based in my experience, some Apple notebooks are better than ThinkPad and viceversa.  But in construction, and design, I give the advantage to ThinkPads.  The iMac is the best All-In-One in the market, while the Mini have some competition from the HP Z1 and the ThinkStation Tiny.  The iPad is the best tablet, until you add a keyboard + trackpad, where the Surface Pro does a better job.  And the HP Z-workstations and Lenovo ThinkStations maybe betterthan the Mac Pro, depending in the usage.

    Does this sound to you pathetic and from a Wintel corporate shill?  Hope not.  Again, most of my posts are based in what I experienced in the field.  When you are outside the Apple bubble you can see what's good and bad with Apple and with other devices.  And I have zero issues praising or criticizing any of them.  But if you think that every Apple device is absolutely better than other vendors, then you may need to expand the list of devices you use, and it may surprise you what you may find.  

    There's a PC market, and then there's a Mac market, and just like the smartphone where it's iPhone vs everyone else, Apple is growing its customer base, and interestingly, its margins.

    What does that tell you about Apple, and specifically Apple product design, and the customer? You seem to fail to see the big picture, hence why your postings come across as unconvincing.

    What's the big picture?

    That Apple is disrupting the PC business.

    https://mondaynote.com/apple-silicon-m1-disruption-af11f639103a
    Yes, Apple design are very good, but like I posted before, they are not perfect, neither the only one doing good designs.  There are cases where other vendors are better than Apple.  Look at the example I gave of the X1 Nano.  An easy to service 2lb notebook, with spill resistant keyboard and test for military specifications.  Are we going to ignore that because is not from Apple?  

    And yes, the M1 is big.  But my comments were not related to M1 / Intel / AMD, so I don't understand why bring that up.  And even though M1 is an excellent chip, it doesn't makes Apple devices perfect.  Do you want to the best integration with the MS enterprise / business ecosystem, which is the most popular by far?  You need a Windows PC.  Do you need Nvidia GPU's for CUDA applications?  You need a PC.  Do you want the best gaming experience in the market?  You need a PC.  There are just three examples of many others.  And, again, that doesn't means that Apple are bad devices, but neither are perfect, even with the M1 chip.  Like I said before, when you see the big picture, you'll find other vendors are doing excellent devices too. 

    Yeah, if you need PC, then buy a PC, but don't pretend that the Mac buying public isn't aware of the disruptive benefits of Apple Silicon, so your goalposts that are limited to the build of very specific PC's, aren't very relevant.

    I have a PC, a Lenovo D20 in fact, running Windows 7 for my MCAD software, so I understand about the needs of PC users. But I can also run Autodesk Fusion 360 on an M series Mac, in Rosetta, quite fine and get the job done, so I'm really at a place where I'm ready to leave the PC entirely.

    Again, my original comments were not about the M1.  So I still don't know why your bring them to the discussion.  Even Gruber had to comment about the X1 Nano,

    Daring Fireball: ThinkPad X1 Nano: Lenovo's 2-Pound Laptop

    He even posted "It just can’t stand for long that Apple is so far behind the PC state-of-the-art in lightweight laptops."  Again, Apple have good designs, but they are not perfect.
    Okay, and for the record, that sounds nice, and coming from Gruber, relevant. But given that the current Mac Book Air is primarily a processor upgrade from Intel, it is quite possible that Apple will have a Mac Book Air designed around the M series that is lighter.

    Still, I doubt that even Gruber would not purchase a Mac Book Air due to its weight, but for the M series processor.
    Maybe I'm missing something, but the Gruber comment is relevant because is coming from him.  But mine, that was in the same line of his, was wrong?  I suppose that Gruber is also a Wintel/Micro$haft shill, since like me, most of his devices are from Apple and at the same time, saw the good design of the X1 Nano.  Maybe he is a worst Wintel/Micro$haft shill, considering he said "It just can’t stand for long that Apple is so far behind the PC state-of-the-art in lightweight laptops."  

    Maybe you can learn from Gruber (and me  :# ) and appreciate a good design even though is not from Apple.

    For the record, I'm patiently waiting for the next revision of the Macbook Air to replace my MBP.   :D 


    I do appreciate the X1 Nano design, but I also see its downsides in performance compared to the Mac Book Air. Gruber likes the design, good for him, but do you think that he would buy the X1 Nano?

    No.

    What Gruber wants is for Apple to make a lighter Mac Book something in the same weight class as the X1 Nano. I see nothing wrong with that, just that it isn't as relevant to the existing marketplace as Apple sees it. Maybe that will change. 

    It isn't as if Apple can't do that, just that they haven't for marketing reasons.
    There's give and take and what Apple gives the M1 MBA is worth what would be taken if I had to move to a ThinkPad X1 Nano with worse battery life, which might be acceptable if it was considerably faster than the M1 MBA, but it's not even close.

    And then there's the less than stellar audio and worse display, and I seem to recall one review that showed how parts of the X1 Nano was flimsy, which is something you don't get with the M1 MBA. Now, if I had to pick a dedicated Win laptop for travel I'd probably pick the X1 Nano, but not if using a Mac was an option.

    https://www.tomsguide.com/reviews/lenovo-thinkpad-x1-nano
    Yeah, I've read a few of the reviews. Reminds me of the Netbook era, where companies were trying to ship small, inexpensive notebooks, which ended up being abominable in actual use, and Netbooks were murdered when the first Mac Book Air arrived.

    I'll give credit to Lenovo for the carbon fiber housing, but little else of the X1 Nano.

    FFS, Apple will probably have Final Cut running on the M series soon enough, that editing 4k ProRes on a Mac Book Air is actually a thing.
    I wonder how much lighter Apple could make the M1 MBA if they reduced the performance to be on par with the X1 Nano, which would skyrocket the battery life even more which would allow them to remove a good portion of the battery cells, which would also allow them to reduce the casing size. They might even be able to keep the rigid aluminum MBA chassis and be lighter than the X1 Nano while having better components. I'd be interesting to see the results.
    williamlondontmaywatto_cobra
  • Reply 256 of 291
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,263member
    Xed said:
    tmay said:
    Xed said:
    tmay said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    danvm said:
    Hubro said:
    danvm said:
    Agree, the M1 changed everything.  That's the reason I said that a X1 Nano (or X1 Carbon) with a M1 would be my perfect computer.  An excellent mobile processor with the best design and construction in a notebook.
    Just for clarification, the X1 Nano (as well as the X1 Carbon and the P1) are carbon fiber in the top and magnesium alloy in the bottom.  Maybe that's the reason a car can run over it, and still working.  Nice, don't you think?
    ...It's getting really boring, and for my part, it stops here.
    Unfortunately for the resident Wintel corporate shill, it never stops, he never stops and AI just loves the conflicts he produces in his ridiculous posts as people respond and that creates activity (which in turn results in more $$), as if *any* of us come to this forum to have someone sell us on another company's products. It's just pathetic and people like that ruin what *could* otherwise be a fun discussion forum. I just wish people would stop replying to him (and his brethren ilk) so I wouldn't have to suffer his insufferable lunacy in replies. Sigh.
    Just to clarify, most of my devices in my household are from Apple.  So the "Wintel corporate shill" don't apply to me, but neither I'm an "Apple shill", since I have zero emotional attachment to any of my Apple devices.  And neither I have devices from Lenovo.  But in my line of work I have to work with all kind of devices and brands, from notebooks to professional workstations.

    If you read my posts you'll see why, IMO, ThinkPads are better designed compared to Apple notebooks.  Does it means that Apple devices are bad?  But neither are perfect, and if you want a recent example, just look at the butterfly keyboards.  Based in my experience, some Apple notebooks are better than ThinkPad and viceversa.  But in construction, and design, I give the advantage to ThinkPads.  The iMac is the best All-In-One in the market, while the Mini have some competition from the HP Z1 and the ThinkStation Tiny.  The iPad is the best tablet, until you add a keyboard + trackpad, where the Surface Pro does a better job.  And the HP Z-workstations and Lenovo ThinkStations maybe betterthan the Mac Pro, depending in the usage.

    Does this sound to you pathetic and from a Wintel corporate shill?  Hope not.  Again, most of my posts are based in what I experienced in the field.  When you are outside the Apple bubble you can see what's good and bad with Apple and with other devices.  And I have zero issues praising or criticizing any of them.  But if you think that every Apple device is absolutely better than other vendors, then you may need to expand the list of devices you use, and it may surprise you what you may find.  

    There's a PC market, and then there's a Mac market, and just like the smartphone where it's iPhone vs everyone else, Apple is growing its customer base, and interestingly, its margins.

    What does that tell you about Apple, and specifically Apple product design, and the customer? You seem to fail to see the big picture, hence why your postings come across as unconvincing.

    What's the big picture?

    That Apple is disrupting the PC business.

    https://mondaynote.com/apple-silicon-m1-disruption-af11f639103a
    Yes, Apple design are very good, but like I posted before, they are not perfect, neither the only one doing good designs.  There are cases where other vendors are better than Apple.  Look at the example I gave of the X1 Nano.  An easy to service 2lb notebook, with spill resistant keyboard and test for military specifications.  Are we going to ignore that because is not from Apple?  

    And yes, the M1 is big.  But my comments were not related to M1 / Intel / AMD, so I don't understand why bring that up.  And even though M1 is an excellent chip, it doesn't makes Apple devices perfect.  Do you want to the best integration with the MS enterprise / business ecosystem, which is the most popular by far?  You need a Windows PC.  Do you need Nvidia GPU's for CUDA applications?  You need a PC.  Do you want the best gaming experience in the market?  You need a PC.  There are just three examples of many others.  And, again, that doesn't means that Apple are bad devices, but neither are perfect, even with the M1 chip.  Like I said before, when you see the big picture, you'll find other vendors are doing excellent devices too. 

    Yeah, if you need PC, then buy a PC, but don't pretend that the Mac buying public isn't aware of the disruptive benefits of Apple Silicon, so your goalposts that are limited to the build of very specific PC's, aren't very relevant.

    I have a PC, a Lenovo D20 in fact, running Windows 7 for my MCAD software, so I understand about the needs of PC users. But I can also run Autodesk Fusion 360 on an M series Mac, in Rosetta, quite fine and get the job done, so I'm really at a place where I'm ready to leave the PC entirely.

    Again, my original comments were not about the M1.  So I still don't know why your bring them to the discussion.  Even Gruber had to comment about the X1 Nano,

    Daring Fireball: ThinkPad X1 Nano: Lenovo's 2-Pound Laptop

    He even posted "It just can’t stand for long that Apple is so far behind the PC state-of-the-art in lightweight laptops."  Again, Apple have good designs, but they are not perfect.
    Okay, and for the record, that sounds nice, and coming from Gruber, relevant. But given that the current Mac Book Air is primarily a processor upgrade from Intel, it is quite possible that Apple will have a Mac Book Air designed around the M series that is lighter.

    Still, I doubt that even Gruber would not purchase a Mac Book Air due to its weight, but for the M series processor.
    Maybe I'm missing something, but the Gruber comment is relevant because is coming from him.  But mine, that was in the same line of his, was wrong?  I suppose that Gruber is also a Wintel/Micro$haft shill, since like me, most of his devices are from Apple and at the same time, saw the good design of the X1 Nano.  Maybe he is a worst Wintel/Micro$haft shill, considering he said "It just can’t stand for long that Apple is so far behind the PC state-of-the-art in lightweight laptops."  

    Maybe you can learn from Gruber (and me  :# ) and appreciate a good design even though is not from Apple.

    For the record, I'm patiently waiting for the next revision of the Macbook Air to replace my MBP.   :D 


    I do appreciate the X1 Nano design, but I also see its downsides in performance compared to the Mac Book Air. Gruber likes the design, good for him, but do you think that he would buy the X1 Nano?

    No.

    What Gruber wants is for Apple to make a lighter Mac Book something in the same weight class as the X1 Nano. I see nothing wrong with that, just that it isn't as relevant to the existing marketplace as Apple sees it. Maybe that will change. 

    It isn't as if Apple can't do that, just that they haven't for marketing reasons.
    There's give and take and what Apple gives the M1 MBA is worth what would be taken if I had to move to a ThinkPad X1 Nano with worse battery life, which might be acceptable if it was considerably faster than the M1 MBA, but it's not even close.

    And then there's the less than stellar audio and worse display, and I seem to recall one review that showed how parts of the X1 Nano was flimsy, which is something you don't get with the M1 MBA. Now, if I had to pick a dedicated Win laptop for travel I'd probably pick the X1 Nano, but not if using a Mac was an option.

    https://www.tomsguide.com/reviews/lenovo-thinkpad-x1-nano
    Yeah, I've read a few of the reviews. Reminds me of the Netbook era, where companies were trying to ship small, inexpensive notebooks, which ended up being abominable in actual use, and Netbooks were murdered when the first Mac Book Air arrived.

    I'll give credit to Lenovo for the carbon fiber housing, but little else of the X1 Nano.

    FFS, Apple will probably have Final Cut running on the M series soon enough, that editing 4k ProRes on a Mac Book Air is actually a thing.
    I wonder how much lighter Apple could make the M1 MBA if they reduced the performance to be on par with the X1 Nano, which would skyrocket the battery life even more which would allow them to remove a good portion of the battery cells, which would also allow them to reduce the casing size. They might even be able to keep the rigid aluminum MBA chassis and be lighter than the X1 Nano while having better components. I'd be interesting to see the results.
    https://www.samsung.com/us/computing/galaxy-book-pro/

    Looks like Samsung is now right beside Lenovo X1 Nano in weight at under 2 lb.

    I'm thinking that Apple will have a full redesign of the Mac Book Air and Pro for the next rev, likely by this fall, incorporating Mini LED screens in the highest build of each, and that in itself would probably go aways in reducing weight. But I'm not seeing that Apple needs to get under 2 lb given the performance of the M seres driving sales.
    edited May 1 watto_cobra
  • Reply 257 of 291
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 9,797member
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    sdw2001 said:
    sdw2001 said:
    sdw2001 said:
    sdw2001 said:
    sdw2001 said:
    Wgkrueger said:
    seanj said:
    For all those defending the "Everything Glued together & soldered together" assembly of the MacBooks by saying "Nobody ever upgraded a computer", Andrew just called bull!

    His biggest (only?) complaint about his M1 MacBook Air is that it can't meet his needs because it is frozen in time with what it came with when he bought it -- versus his MacPro which grew and developed with enhancements as his needs, wants and requirements grew.

    Likewise, my 9 year old i7 Thinkpad runs perfectly well and meets all of my needs -- because it's been upgraded to a 500Gb SSD, 16Gb Ram and an internal harddrive used for ongoing, real time backups.  Without those cheap and very simple to install (5 minutes or less) upgrades the machine would have been scrap
    Only a tiny percentage of people tinker with the computers, it’s a niche market that’s similar to those that add nitrous oxide to their cars...
    Most people just want a computer they can do things with, rather than do things to, in other words a consumer product. With Apple they get that, which is why customer satisfaction is so high.

    If you have a 9 year old Thinkpad then you’re probably either running XP (good luck browsing the Internet securely) or you’re running Linux. If it’s the latter then if you happy with a limited number of professional applications then that’s fine.

    I forgot to mention that its running WIndows 10.  So, its security is a good as good as any Windows machine.   Admittedly that's a low bar. 
    But the point of the post was NOT about lengetivity but to reiterate what Andew said:   His MacPro remained functional because it could be upgraded with additional RAM & Storage -- while his MacBook AIr could not meet his needs because it was all glued and soldered together and locked into its initial configuration when he bought it.
    If it needed to be upgraded immediately then it can be returned to Apple. If his needs exceeded the capabilities of a maxed out machine then he couldn’t upgrade it anyway (thinking memory here) and he could return it to Apple. If he used it for a period of time and his use cases changed so they exceeded the machines capabilities, which I think was part of your original point, then it’s a case of longevity. 
    ...

    The point?  Apple clearly looked at what its customers were actually doing, and found the benefits of hardwiring and gluing everything outweighed the negatives.  While I can see the other side, I agree.  I've had Macs since the Pismo PowerBook G3 (2000).   The number of issues I had with those machines (getting a new one every 3-4 years) was far, far higher than now.  The products are not as serviceable or upgradable.  But they also don't need to be.  

     
    Perhaps the question is:   Who benefited?   i don't think it was the customer.   For them, in a laptop, soldered & glued together that was non-upgradeable offers no benefit.   Can it be made a half millimeter thinner by eliminating a socket?   Perhaps.  But, even if true, that is a pretty marginal benefit.

    I think I explained my thinking on the benefits to the customer.  A thinner, lighter, more solid and perhaps longer-lasting design benefits the customer.  Speaking from a real-world and personal perspective, the benefits to me have been more than marginal.  As I said, I was a person who used to upgrade things myself.  I did RAM, HDD, SSD, battery (modular or internal), etc.  I don't care about that anymore.  Know why?  Because I don't need to do it.  The components on my 2015 (model year, actually started using in fall of 2016) MBP haven't needed to be replaced or upgraded.  I'm at the point now where I still don't need more capabilities, but I'll probably upgrade in a year or two anyway.  After all, my product is now vintage and nearly obsolete.  

    Again, all things being equal, I prefer upgradeability.  But things are not equal.  The design is better.  The feel is better.  Components last longer and are higher performance.  It's like complaining that you can't swap out your fuel injectors, when you could change your carburetor in your classic car.  

    I still fail to see how eliminating a socket makes a machine thinner (at least in any meaningful way).  Nor do I see how soldering an SSD makes it any stronger.  If the frame of the machine is that weak, it will work the opposite and break the solder joint -- at which time you lose your data when you throw away your machine.


    OK, we're beyond just a difference in philosophy or even consumer preference at this point.  Given the way you're going at it with others, I get the feeling that you are rigidly stuck in your position or perhaps just looking to debate.  I'm hoping I'm wrong, though.  

    The point is not just removing a socket, though removing anything could conceivably allow less mass and therefore a potential thinner design.  We don't even have to speculate though, because it is an established fact that Apple products are thinner and lighter.  My 2009 MBP weighs 5.5 lbs and is .95 inches thick.  My 2015 is obviously a much higher performing machine, and is 4.49 lbs and .71 inches thick.  So it's about 20% lighter and thinner.  I won't get into the performance benchmarks, but you can imagine that my current quad core machine pretty much slays the dual core 2009 machine.  

    So we've established that whatever changes Apple is making, they result in (or correlate with) faster, more powerful machines that are thinner and lighter.  So, let's now talk reliability.  As I stated, I've replaced my 2009's battery once, and it now needs it again.  I've replaced the charger.  I upgraded to an SSD (a Samsung that ended up being a problem) and then replaced the SSD again (an OWC I think).  I can't recall if I upgraded the RAM...but I think I may have.  Conversely, I'm in my 6th year of use with my 2015 MBP 2.2GHZ quad core (Retina).  I've repaired and upgraded precisely nothing.  The battery is still at least 80%.  It doesn't even have any loose screws.  The keyboard is better and quieter.  I've spilled liquids near it....no issues.  It's higher performance, thinner, lighter, more solid machine.  It's a better machine, period.  Nothing on the machine is user serviceable as far as I know.  But why does it matter to me anymore?  

    Again, if you like having user upgradable laptops, that's fine.  I'm not arguing you shouldn't.  But you are being extremely critical of Apple and anyone who has a different take.  Your comment about "throwing away your machine" is frankly ridiculous.  A broken solder joint is not going to result in permanent data loss, for a variety of reason I suspect you already know, but won't acknowledge.  People back up their data quite a bit now, thanks to the cloud.  The system IS serviceable by authorized centers, including Apple.  People aren't just going to "throw their machine away."  That's absurd.  

    You may prefer to swap out a failed SSD yourself, but at what cost does that come? Apple evaluated who actually works on their own machines, what the costs and benefits of each approach were, and decided to go with a more hardwired method.  Think what you like, but that's obviously what happened.  Again, you're entitled to your own opinion.  But you're not even considering the other side of the debate.  

     

    As others have pointed out:  Thinkpads are lighter, thinner and upgradeable.   So, you need to give up on that argument.

    And, it was Andrew who said his MacBook Air could not meet his needs because, unlike his MacPro, it cannot be upgraded.  I agree with him.   Obviously you think he just "critical of Apple".   He isn't and neither I am I.   But, we both recognize a poor design choice when we see it.

    How many cheap debate tactics can you fit into one post?  I count three.  No, four.

    1) Appeal to majority ("others have pointed out").  
    2) False comparision/dilemma (comparing MBP to Thinkpads directly).  
    3) Strawman ("you need to give up on that argument"....one I wasn't making).  
    4) Strawman #2 ("Obviously you think").  
    Maybe even 5) Appeal to authority (Andrew who said....). 


    I was not comparing MBP's to Thinkpads.  If a Thinkpad is a better option for you because it's upgradable, thin and light, good for you.  What I was doing was illustrating that Apple's products have indisputably gotten lighter and thinner.  This was in direct response to your claim that there was no benefit to the consumer.  Clearly, that's incorrect, especially for portables.  I also illustrated (somewhat anecdotally) that at the same time, their build quality, feel and reliability have improved.  Here again, this is an obvious benefit to the consumer.  

    Please put away the "you obviously think" straw man.  I didn't say Andrew was just being critical of Apple.  I'm not even sure I'd say that about you.  You do seem completely entrenched, myopic and needlessly argumentative on this point, though.  A perfect example is your last sentence.  A poor design choice? No, it's design choice you don't like. And that's fine.   But running around claiming it has no benefit to consumers, you'll have to throw out your laptop, etc?  Please.  Oh, and I'll point out.... I find it hilarious and bizarre that someone would accuse Apple of making a "poor design choice" because their $1500 portable doesn't meet the same needs as their $5000 desktop.   

    I don't know who you're trying to convince here.  You're certainly not going to change Apple's mind.  I doubt you're changing too many minds here.  
    LOL....
    You obviously WERE claiming that Macs were thinner, lighter, etc...
    Sorry if your claim was refuted and made you feel bad.  So, instead of apologizing you attack the messenger.  Sad.
    I'm puzzled at why you seem to be responding so defensively, but I'll just put that aside and reiterate my point.  
    It's the only way George knows how to communicate.  He rants and screams and calls people Trumpers or Apple Fan boys if they express any disagreement with anything he says.  Everything is black and white and angry in GBM world.

    I wouldn't take the defensiveness or the hostility personally, it's very much him, not you.  I'm convinced he needs professional help.
    Typical!  -- when you lose a debate you resort to attacking the messenger. 
    But, if you have nothing to contribute, go kick your dog or something instead of cluttering up the forum with your hate and anger.
    I've responded to you constructively and respectfully in the past on a variety of subjects, and only got ranting and insults in return.  You've lost politeness privileges, and I will be open to others about your tactics.

    Are you done with your rant?
  • Reply 258 of 291
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 9,797member
    crowley said:
    tmay said:
    melgross said:
    melgross said:
    melgross said:
    thedba said:
    For all those defending the "Everything Glued together & soldered together" assembly of the MacBooks by saying "Nobody ever upgraded a computer", Andrew just called bull!

    His biggest (only?) complaint about his M1 MacBook Air is that it can't meet his needs because it is frozen in time with what it came with when he bought it -- versus his MacPro which grew and developed with enhancements as his needs, wants and requirements grew.

    Likewise, my 9 year old i7 Thinkpad runs perfectly well and meets all of my needs -- because it's been upgraded to a 500Gb SSD, 16Gb Ram and an internal harddrive used for ongoing, real time backups.  Without those cheap and very simple to install (5 minutes or less) upgrades the machine would have been scrap
    Statements such as this remind me of my now deceased father who used to long for the days of when he could service his car himself. 
    I sometimes wonder what he would say seeing today's Teslas or Priuses. 

    Either way, all technology will move towards this way of doing things with ARM architecture taking up more space. Apple is just ahead of the curve on this. 

    I don't see the logic behind equating an inability to service or upgrade something as synonymous with better products.
    For many products, a lack of upgradability means a smaller, sealed product which is more reliable and easier to carry around. In my own business, we generally had about 32 Macs. We would replace about a third every year, moving them down a tier in production until the forth year, when we either sold them or gave them away to employees. So we replaced all of our Macs over a three year period. Every other production house I knew did pretty much the same thing. My wife worked at Citicorp for 28 years, and she got a new computer every three years too, and most corporations are on a three year replacement schedule.

    we found that it cost more, and was a loss in productivity, to upgrade machines. For a short while that was a popular thing, as you could get excellent CPU upgrades for the Mac, significantly enhancing performance, something that never worked well with Windows machines. What we found best was to just get machines equipped the way we needed them in the first place. If you’re making real money with your machine, either as an individual, or as a corporation, you get to deduct many expenses, such as cost of equipment in several ways for tax purposes, making your purchases less expensive over the life of the machine. Discuss it with your accountant.

    increasing RAM can help, but not by nearly as much as you think. The reason why some claim this as a big thing is because they bought the lowest config in the beginning, which was below their needs. So yes, increasing it made a noticeable difference. But if you buy what you need in the beginning, adding more leads to a minor difference. Same thing with drives. Don’t skimp on a startup drive. Smaller drives and storage is always slower. That’s true for hard drives, SSD’s and internal NAND storage. There are real reasons for that. Figure out what you really need, and double it. Be realistic about both. Remember these days that 512 NAND will be almost twice as fast as 256, and that 1TB doesn’t add much speed above that. But I always get 1TB startup because you really shouldn’t keep NAND more than about 60% full for good NAND long term health.

    there are a bunch of common sense rules to follow if you understand your needs and how to satisfy them. Upgrading in mid stream rarely gets you much unless you starved your machine in the beginning.

    I agree.   a completely sealed, integrated, non-upgradeable device makes sense in something so small and portable like an iPhone or maybe even an iPad.
    But in a larger machine that serves no functional purpose -- except for planned obsolescence.  And, the larger the machine the more sense it makes to make it upgradeable -- such as Andrew's MacPro in this instance.
    I do wish that people would stop talking about planned obsolescence. That’s very rarely a thing. Things become obsolete because technology passes them by. What was a top line machine when bought becomes a low end machine in a few years. That’s the way technology works. New software often doesn’t work on old machines, often it’s not because of a lack of RAM, or drive space, though, yes, sometimes it is.

    mostly advances in technology on processors and related technology means that an OS has new features, ir is even redesigned. Sometimes new security protocols cuts software out of the loop. There are many reasons. But again, don’t be cheap, and figure you can get away with less, when what you do, or will be doing at some point, requires more. That’s a sure way to obsolete a machine. But, more RAM and bigger drives likely won’t save you, because the processor and bus are too slow. So you get a machine with a PCIe 2 bus (years ago, of course) and you found, two years later that all new upgrades are now PCIe 3, and that PCIe 2 upgrades are discontinued, and you have to scramble to fine one on eBay or some such place. And you can’t play the new games properly on it anyway, or do much else.

    so being an upgradablecmachine doesn’t always help. Who has a separate modem in their computer these days? No one. So you can’t upgrade that either. We could go on.

    It is true that, eventually, a machine reaches a point where its core components (mother board, etc.) just can't hack it anymore.  But I don't see the logic in hurrying that by gluing and soldering the typically upgradeable components like RAM and Harddrive.  That does not benefit the customer in any meaningful way.

    Another aspect of making the SSD upgradeable is data security:  If a machine dies (say by drowning in a Starbucks) a socketed SSD can be pulled and the data on it recovered.  That is not the case if it is soldered & glued to the motherboard.  Then your data dies with your machine.
    I take it that you’ve heard of backups? No responsible person with valuable data doesn’t backup. We (my company) stored data for some customers. We had three backups. One was in the area where we had our computer systems. One was in a room three floors above ours in the building the lab was in. And another was off site altogether, in another building several blocks away. We also carried millions in insurance just in the extremely unlikely situation that all three backups failed.

    Not a single person I know backs up their computer.
    Well one does...  But only because I installed a second harddrive in his desktop and started up "file history" for him.
    It's also one of the reasons why I like my 9 year old but upgraded Thinkpad:   I installed a second drive in it so that the data is automatically backed up.

    But, even for those who do run backups, unless they're done automatically, the backup is seldom fully current -- so the most valuable data (the most recent) tends to be lost.

    Strange though that you mention three backups -- that was my introduction to backups!
    in 1977, while working as an accountant, we accumulated a year's worth of production data from a newly implemented cost accounting system.   When I asked for a report so I could do some analysis we discovered that all three backups of it had were gone -- lost, damaged or accidentally written over.

    That's one of the reasons I'm so opposed to non-removeable drives -- I know there is only a single part of any computer that cannot in some way be replaced.  It's the most valuable part:  the data.

    If however, Apple would implement iCloud backups for Macs, that would take away one of my reasons for wanting removable SSDs.  I don't understand why they have not done that.


    FFS George, Apple has iCloud backups;


    "Tap Settings > [your name] > iCloud > Manage Storage, which will list how much iCloudstorage you're using and which apps are eating up the most storage. To automatically back up your device each day, turn on iCloud Backup via Settings > [your name] > iCloud > iCloud Backup and toggle iCloud Backup to on.

    You consistently amaze me with your misinformation...

    We're talking about Macs, not iPhones
    iCloud will sync anything you stick in your Documents folder, with default configuration.

    That's not the same.
  • Reply 259 of 291
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 9,797member
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    melgross said:
    melgross said:
    melgross said:
    thedba said:
    For all those defending the "Everything Glued together & soldered together" assembly of the MacBooks by saying "Nobody ever upgraded a computer", Andrew just called bull!

    His biggest (only?) complaint about his M1 MacBook Air is that it can't meet his needs because it is frozen in time with what it came with when he bought it -- versus his MacPro which grew and developed with enhancements as his needs, wants and requirements grew.

    Likewise, my 9 year old i7 Thinkpad runs perfectly well and meets all of my needs -- because it's been upgraded to a 500Gb SSD, 16Gb Ram and an internal harddrive used for ongoing, real time backups.  Without those cheap and very simple to install (5 minutes or less) upgrades the machine would have been scrap
    Statements such as this remind me of my now deceased father who used to long for the days of when he could service his car himself. 
    I sometimes wonder what he would say seeing today's Teslas or Priuses. 

    Either way, all technology will move towards this way of doing things with ARM architecture taking up more space. Apple is just ahead of the curve on this. 

    I don't see the logic behind equating an inability to service or upgrade something as synonymous with better products.
    For many products, a lack of upgradability means a smaller, sealed product which is more reliable and easier to carry around. In my own business, we generally had about 32 Macs. We would replace about a third every year, moving them down a tier in production until the forth year, when we either sold them or gave them away to employees. So we replaced all of our Macs over a three year period. Every other production house I knew did pretty much the same thing. My wife worked at Citicorp for 28 years, and she got a new computer every three years too, and most corporations are on a three year replacement schedule.

    we found that it cost more, and was a loss in productivity, to upgrade machines. For a short while that was a popular thing, as you could get excellent CPU upgrades for the Mac, significantly enhancing performance, something that never worked well with Windows machines. What we found best was to just get machines equipped the way we needed them in the first place. If you’re making real money with your machine, either as an individual, or as a corporation, you get to deduct many expenses, such as cost of equipment in several ways for tax purposes, making your purchases less expensive over the life of the machine. Discuss it with your accountant.

    increasing RAM can help, but not by nearly as much as you think. The reason why some claim this as a big thing is because they bought the lowest config in the beginning, which was below their needs. So yes, increasing it made a noticeable difference. But if you buy what you need in the beginning, adding more leads to a minor difference. Same thing with drives. Don’t skimp on a startup drive. Smaller drives and storage is always slower. That’s true for hard drives, SSD’s and internal NAND storage. There are real reasons for that. Figure out what you really need, and double it. Be realistic about both. Remember these days that 512 NAND will be almost twice as fast as 256, and that 1TB doesn’t add much speed above that. But I always get 1TB startup because you really shouldn’t keep NAND more than about 60% full for good NAND long term health.

    there are a bunch of common sense rules to follow if you understand your needs and how to satisfy them. Upgrading in mid stream rarely gets you much unless you starved your machine in the beginning.

    I agree.   a completely sealed, integrated, non-upgradeable device makes sense in something so small and portable like an iPhone or maybe even an iPad.
    But in a larger machine that serves no functional purpose -- except for planned obsolescence.  And, the larger the machine the more sense it makes to make it upgradeable -- such as Andrew's MacPro in this instance.
    I do wish that people would stop talking about planned obsolescence. That’s very rarely a thing. Things become obsolete because technology passes them by. What was a top line machine when bought becomes a low end machine in a few years. That’s the way technology works. New software often doesn’t work on old machines, often it’s not because of a lack of RAM, or drive space, though, yes, sometimes it is.

    mostly advances in technology on processors and related technology means that an OS has new features, ir is even redesigned. Sometimes new security protocols cuts software out of the loop. There are many reasons. But again, don’t be cheap, and figure you can get away with less, when what you do, or will be doing at some point, requires more. That’s a sure way to obsolete a machine. But, more RAM and bigger drives likely won’t save you, because the processor and bus are too slow. So you get a machine with a PCIe 2 bus (years ago, of course) and you found, two years later that all new upgrades are now PCIe 3, and that PCIe 2 upgrades are discontinued, and you have to scramble to fine one on eBay or some such place. And you can’t play the new games properly on it anyway, or do much else.

    so being an upgradablecmachine doesn’t always help. Who has a separate modem in their computer these days? No one. So you can’t upgrade that either. We could go on.

    It is true that, eventually, a machine reaches a point where its core components (mother board, etc.) just can't hack it anymore.  But I don't see the logic in hurrying that by gluing and soldering the typically upgradeable components like RAM and Harddrive.  That does not benefit the customer in any meaningful way.

    Another aspect of making the SSD upgradeable is data security:  If a machine dies (say by drowning in a Starbucks) a socketed SSD can be pulled and the data on it recovered.  That is not the case if it is soldered & glued to the motherboard.  Then your data dies with your machine.
    I take it that you’ve heard of backups? No responsible person with valuable data doesn’t backup. We (my company) stored data for some customers. We had three backups. One was in the area where we had our computer systems. One was in a room three floors above ours in the building the lab was in. And another was off site altogether, in another building several blocks away. We also carried millions in insurance just in the extremely unlikely situation that all three backups failed.

    Not a single person I know backs up their computer.
    Well one does...  But only because I installed a second harddrive in his desktop and started up "file history" for him.
    It's also one of the reasons why I like my 9 year old but upgraded Thinkpad:   I installed a second drive in it so that the data is automatically backed up.

    But, even for those who do run backups, unless they're done automatically, the backup is seldom fully current -- so the most valuable data (the most recent) tends to be lost.

    Strange though that you mention three backups -- that was my introduction to backups!
    in 1977, while working as an accountant, we accumulated a year's worth of production data from a newly implemented cost accounting system.   When I asked for a report so I could do some analysis we discovered that all three backups of it had were gone -- lost, damaged or accidentally written over.

    That's one of the reasons I'm so opposed to non-removeable drives -- I know there is only a single part of any computer that cannot in some way be replaced.  It's the most valuable part:  the data.

    If however, Apple would implement iCloud backups for Macs, that would take away one of my reasons for wanting removable SSDs.  I don't understand why they have not done that.


    FFS George, Apple has iCloud backups;


    "Tap Settings > [your name] > iCloud > Manage Storage, which will list how much iCloudstorage you're using and which apps are eating up the most storage. To automatically back up your device each day, turn on iCloud Backup via Settings > [your name] > iCloud > iCloud Backup and toggle iCloud Backup to on.

    You consistently amaze me with your misinformation...

    We're talking about Macs, not iPhones
    It works for Macs as well/

    https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204025

    You get 5 GB free, but that isn't enough to backup much of your data.

    2 TB will cost you $9.99 a month. You can buy an external drive from Amazon for less than the cost of a years iCloud service and better than that, it works as a Time Machine.

    https://www.amazon.com/s?k=wd+external+hard+drive&crid=3N6IYEQ79AEK3&sprefix=WD+,aps,241&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_1_3

    But of course, you don't want to use an external drive...because house fire. So you buy two drives, and store one either offsite or in a fireproof safe, rotating between the two.

    Gaslighting us again...


    So iCloud Backup runs on Mac's?

    Or are you Gaslighting again?
  • Reply 260 of 291
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 9,797member
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    danvm said:
    Hubro said:
    danvm said:
    Agree, the M1 changed everything.  That's the reason I said that a X1 Nano (or X1 Carbon) with a M1 would be my perfect computer.  An excellent mobile processor with the best design and construction in a notebook.
    Just for clarification, the X1 Nano (as well as the X1 Carbon and the P1) are carbon fiber in the top and magnesium alloy in the bottom.  Maybe that's the reason a car can run over it, and still working.  Nice, don't you think?
    ...It's getting really boring, and for my part, it stops here.
    Unfortunately for the resident Wintel corporate shill, it never stops, he never stops and AI just loves the conflicts he produces in his ridiculous posts as people respond and that creates activity (which in turn results in more $$), as if *any* of us come to this forum to have someone sell us on another company's products. It's just pathetic and people like that ruin what *could* otherwise be a fun discussion forum. I just wish people would stop replying to him (and his brethren ilk) so I wouldn't have to suffer his insufferable lunacy in replies. Sigh.
    Just to clarify, most of my devices in my household are from Apple.  So the "Wintel corporate shill" don't apply to me, but neither I'm an "Apple shill", since I have zero emotional attachment to any of my Apple devices.  And neither I have devices from Lenovo.  But in my line of work I have to work with all kind of devices and brands, from notebooks to professional workstations.

    If you read my posts you'll see why, IMO, ThinkPads are better designed compared to Apple notebooks.  Does it means that Apple devices are bad?  But neither are perfect, and if you want a recent example, just look at the butterfly keyboards.  Based in my experience, some Apple notebooks are better than ThinkPad and viceversa.  But in construction, and design, I give the advantage to ThinkPads.  The iMac is the best All-In-One in the market, while the Mini have some competition from the HP Z1 and the ThinkStation Tiny.  The iPad is the best tablet, until you add a keyboard + trackpad, where the Surface Pro does a better job.  And the HP Z-workstations and Lenovo ThinkStations maybe betterthan the Mac Pro, depending in the usage.

    Does this sound to you pathetic and from a Wintel corporate shill?  Hope not.  Again, most of my posts are based in what I experienced in the field.  When you are outside the Apple bubble you can see what's good and bad with Apple and with other devices.  And I have zero issues praising or criticizing any of them.  But if you think that every Apple device is absolutely better than other vendors, then you may need to expand the list of devices you use, and it may surprise you what you may find.  

    There's a PC market, and then there's a Mac market, and just like the smartphone where it's iPhone vs everyone else, Apple is growing its customer base, and interestingly, its margins.

    What does that tell you about Apple, and specifically Apple product design, and the customer? You seem to fail to see the big picture, hence why your postings come across as unconvincing.

    What's the big picture?

    That Apple is disrupting the PC business.

    https://mondaynote.com/apple-silicon-m1-disruption-af11f639103a
    Yes, Apple design are very good, but like I posted before, they are not perfect, neither the only one doing good designs.  There are cases where other vendors are better than Apple.  Look at the example I gave of the X1 Nano.  An easy to service 2lb notebook, with spill resistant keyboard and test for military specifications.  Are we going to ignore that because is not from Apple?  

    And yes, the M1 is big.  But my comments were not related to M1 / Intel / AMD, so I don't understand why bring that up.  And even though M1 is an excellent chip, it doesn't makes Apple devices perfect.  Do you want to the best integration with the MS enterprise / business ecosystem, which is the most popular by far?  You need a Windows PC.  Do you need Nvidia GPU's for CUDA applications?  You need a PC.  Do you want the best gaming experience in the market?  You need a PC.  There are just three examples of many others.  And, again, that doesn't means that Apple are bad devices, but neither are perfect, even with the M1 chip.  Like I said before, when you see the big picture, you'll find other vendors are doing excellent devices too. 

    Yeah, if you need PC, then buy a PC, but don't pretend that the Mac buying public isn't aware of the disruptive benefits of Apple Silicon, so your goalposts that are limited to the build of very specific PC's, aren't very relevant.

    I have a PC, a Lenovo D20 in fact, running Windows 7 for my MCAD software, so I understand about the needs of PC users. But I can also run Autodesk Fusion 360 on an M series Mac, in Rosetta, quite fine and get the job done, so I'm really at a place where I'm ready to leave the PC entirely.

    Again, my original comments were not about the M1.  So I still don't know why your bring them to the discussion.  Even Gruber had to comment about the X1 Nano,

    Daring Fireball: ThinkPad X1 Nano: Lenovo's 2-Pound Laptop

    He even posted "It just can’t stand for long that Apple is so far behind the PC state-of-the-art in lightweight laptops."  Again, Apple have good designs, but they are not perfect.

    That's what he does when he loses the debate:   He just moves on to the next subject to prove that he won it.
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