Epic CEO Tim Sweeney grilled on platform agreements, V-Bucks

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  • Reply 41 of 72
    davidwdavidw Posts: 1,217member
    eimoaotl said:
    eimoaotl said:
    There is a lot of vitriol on here against Epic.  I personally think that iOS has become like Windows and Mac, where it is a general operating system and that Apple should no longer be allowed to determine what I can and cannot do with the operating system.  My phone and my iPad are not like my gaming console - I use my iOS devices for basically everything, I use my xbox just for gaming and streaming shows.  I don’t think iOS and gaming consoles are equivalent.  But I do think iOS and windows are equivalent as they are both operating systems that enable me to do “limitless” things depending on software and how much limitation Microsoft and Apple actually put on them.  Same goes for the Mac my wife uses. Can you imagine how angry people would be if Windows mandated that everything now had to go through the Windows store and through their payment system?
    Vitriol vs Epic is deserved. They are a greedy and despicable fools.

    also what you are saying makes no sense. You can jail break your IOS or do whatever. What does any you said have to do with Epic making money off Apple Ecosystem which they spent years building and invested in? The Apple App Store is Apples
    Intellectual property and you think you pay a few hundred for a few devices, you can tells them what to do with it?

    if you had a restaurant , you spent years building up your customers , i sell
    drinks and I rent a small shelf from you and some well but one day I decided I will no longer pay you and follow your rules but I still will use your restaurant, would you be ok with that? If you say yes, you are either lying or dumber than a grass hopper
    So by your reasoning, because Microsoft has spent years building and investing in Windows, they should therefore be able to block any app they wish on Windows, and force anyone that uses any program on Windows to pay them 30% of their charges?  How dare Adobe make money off of Microsofts hard work in developing Windows?  Pay the troll to cross your bridge, because you were the one that built it? Even if it is the only bridge there because you won’t let me build any other bridges because you built your bridge first?  Apple is a monopoly and if the US doesn’t act at least the EU will. 
    Microsoft does exactly that with their Microsoft Store on an X-Box. How dare if Epic want to be in the Microsoft Store and not want to pay Microsoft for all the hard work they did developing the X-Box OS and hardware over the years.  

    And guess what, there's a Microsoft Store for Windows that does exactly that. MS is going to be updating their commission soon but before then, MS takes a 30% cut of software downloaded from their Microsoft Store in Windows, on to a PC running Windows 10. Notice that even if a developer were to use their own site to process payment, download and install their software on to a PC with Windows 10, Microsoft still wants a 5% cut. Otherwise it will go down from 30% to 12%. Sure  a developer can package and sell a retail disc and have the customer install their software for free. But I bet that will cost them more than the 30%, soon to be 12%, commission they have to pay MS for selling their software in the Microsoft Store for Windows.   

    https://blogs.windows.com/windowsdeveloper/2018/05/07/a-new-microsoft-store-revenue-share-is-coming/

    https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/29/22409285/microsoft-store-cut-windows-pc-games-12-percent  ;


    tenthousandthings80s_Apple_Guyspock1234roundaboutnowwatto_cobra
  • Reply 42 of 72
    BeatsBeats Posts: 2,321member
    eimoaotl said:
    eimoaotl said:
    There is a lot of vitriol on here against Epic.  I personally think that iOS has become like Windows and Mac, where it is a general operating system and that Apple should no longer be allowed to determine what I can and cannot do with the operating system.  My phone and my iPad are not like my gaming console - I use my iOS devices for basically everything, I use my xbox just for gaming and streaming shows.  I don’t think iOS and gaming consoles are equivalent.  But I do think iOS and windows are equivalent as they are both operating systems that enable me to do “limitless” things depending on software and how much limitation Microsoft and Apple actually put on them.  Same goes for the Mac my wife uses. Can you imagine how angry people would be if Windows mandated that everything now had to go through the Windows store and through their payment system?
    Vitriol vs Epic is deserved. They are a greedy and despicable fools.

    also what you are saying makes no sense. You can jail break your IOS or do whatever. What does any you said have to do with Epic making money off Apple Ecosystem which they spent years building and invested in? The Apple App Store is Apples
    Intellectual property and you think you pay a few hundred for a few devices, you can tells them what to do with it?

    if you had a restaurant , you spent years building up your customers , i sell
    drinks and I rent a small shelf from you and some well but one day I decided I will no longer pay you and follow your rules but I still will use your restaurant, would you be ok with that? If you say yes, you are either lying or dumber than a grass hopper
    So by your reasoning, because Microsoft has spent years building and investing in Windows, they should therefore be able to block any app they wish on Windows, and force anyone that uses any program on Windows to pay them 30% of their charges?  How dare Adobe make money off of Microsofts hard work in developing Windows?  Pay the troll to cross your bridge, because you were the one that built it? Even if it is the only bridge there because you won’t let me build any other bridges because you built your bridge first?  Apple is a monopoly and if the US doesn’t act at least the EU will. 

    Microsoft ripped off Apple’s hard work to create Windows.

    BAD ANALOGY. 
    MacProqwerty52spock1234watto_cobra
  • Reply 43 of 72
    eimoaotl said:
    There is a lot of vitriol on here against Epic.  I personally think that iOS has become like Windows and Mac, where it is a general operating system and that Apple should no longer be allowed to determine what I can and cannot do with the operating system.  My phone and my iPad are not like my gaming console - I use my iOS devices for basically everything, I use my xbox just for gaming and streaming shows.  I don’t think iOS and gaming consoles are equivalent.  But I do think iOS and windows are equivalent as they are both operating systems that enable me to do “limitless” things depending on software and how much limitation Microsoft and Apple actually put on them.  Same goes for the Mac my wife uses. Can you imagine how angry people would be if Windows mandated that everything now had to go through the Windows store and through their payment system?
    @eimoaotl An honest question to you: Why do you prefer Apple’s ecosystem to the more “open“ world of Android, since this is basically what you are asking for?

    Whatever your answer is to this first question, do you think it is entirely independent on Apple’s quality- and integrity control of 3rd-party apps?

    If your answer to that second question is “Yes” then you obviously only care for Apple’s own apps, and can stop bothering about the “limits” you’re so concerned about. If, on the other hand, your answer is “No” then you have just admitted that you prefer Apple’s control to the limitless alternatives. So, which is it?
    edited May 4 spock1234watto_cobra
  • Reply 44 of 72
    sreesree Posts: 138member
    Epic's case seems very weak. There really is no anti-competitive angle to this case from Apple. Epic wants to put their games on the App Store without following some of the rules, that is it. I think they are going to lose this big time.

    Spotify to some extent, and Tile to a large extent have better cases. Because in both those cases Apple is both the storefront and a competitor. So, it is atleast a debatable topic and hopefully something useful and fair will emerge from those cases.
    muthuk_vanalingamh2pwatto_cobra
  • Reply 45 of 72
    crowleycrowley Posts: 7,886member
    Beats said:
    eimoaotl said:
    eimoaotl said:
    There is a lot of vitriol on here against Epic.  I personally think that iOS has become like Windows and Mac, where it is a general operating system and that Apple should no longer be allowed to determine what I can and cannot do with the operating system.  My phone and my iPad are not like my gaming console - I use my iOS devices for basically everything, I use my xbox just for gaming and streaming shows.  I don’t think iOS and gaming consoles are equivalent.  But I do think iOS and windows are equivalent as they are both operating systems that enable me to do “limitless” things depending on software and how much limitation Microsoft and Apple actually put on them.  Same goes for the Mac my wife uses. Can you imagine how angry people would be if Windows mandated that everything now had to go through the Windows store and through their payment system?
    Vitriol vs Epic is deserved. They are a greedy and despicable fools.

    also what you are saying makes no sense. You can jail break your IOS or do whatever. What does any you said have to do with Epic making money off Apple Ecosystem which they spent years building and invested in? The Apple App Store is Apples
    Intellectual property and you think you pay a few hundred for a few devices, you can tells them what to do with it?

    if you had a restaurant , you spent years building up your customers , i sell
    drinks and I rent a small shelf from you and some well but one day I decided I will no longer pay you and follow your rules but I still will use your restaurant, would you be ok with that? If you say yes, you are either lying or dumber than a grass hopper
    So by your reasoning, because Microsoft has spent years building and investing in Windows, they should therefore be able to block any app they wish on Windows, and force anyone that uses any program on Windows to pay them 30% of their charges?  How dare Adobe make money off of Microsofts hard work in developing Windows?  Pay the troll to cross your bridge, because you were the one that built it? Even if it is the only bridge there because you won’t let me build any other bridges because you built your bridge first?  Apple is a monopoly and if the US doesn’t act at least the EU will. 

    Microsoft ripped off Apple’s hard work to create Windows.

    BAD ANALOGY. 
    Retro flashback!  Get out of the 90s dude, it's over.
  • Reply 46 of 72
    MacProMacPro Posts: 19,310member
    kkqd1337 said:
    It should be illegal to have in app currency that disguises the real monetary value of the [email protected] you are ‘buying’.

    Every in app purchase price should be shown in local currency so it is clear how much you are spending

    I personally think that games with in app purchases should be heavily regulated in the same way gambling is. It’s very toxic and exploits children. 
    Totally agree and it's almost worse than gambling as that has age restrictions.  As you say, games with in app purchases like this are dealing with young kids and immature adolescents with little concept of con going on, yes it's fake money, but costs your parents' real money.

    I hope this moron's plan backfires on him big time.
    tenthousandthingspscooter63spock1234watto_cobra
  • Reply 47 of 72
    eimoaotl said:
    eimoaotl said:
    There is a lot of vitriol on here against Epic.  I personally think that iOS has become like Windows and Mac, where it is a general operating system and that Apple should no longer be allowed to determine what I can and cannot do with the operating system.  My phone and my iPad are not like my gaming console - I use my iOS devices for basically everything, I use my xbox just for gaming and streaming shows.  I don’t think iOS and gaming consoles are equivalent.  But I do think iOS and windows are equivalent as they are both operating systems that enable me to do “limitless” things depending on software and how much limitation Microsoft and Apple actually put on them.  Same goes for the Mac my wife uses. Can you imagine how angry people would be if Windows mandated that everything now had to go through the Windows store and through their payment system?
    Vitriol vs Epic is deserved. They are a greedy and despicable fools.

    also what you are saying makes no sense. You can jail break your IOS or do whatever. What does any you said have to do with Epic making money off Apple Ecosystem which they spent years building and invested in? The Apple App Store is Apples
    Intellectual property and you think you pay a few hundred for a few devices, you can tells them what to do with it?

    if you had a restaurant , you spent years building up your customers , i sell
    drinks and I rent a small shelf from you and some well but one day I decided I will no longer pay you and follow your rules but I still will use your restaurant, would you be ok with that? If you say yes, you are either lying or dumber than a grass hopper
    So by your reasoning, because Microsoft has spent years building and investing in Windows, they should therefore be able to block any app they wish on Windows, and force anyone that uses any program on Windows to pay them 30% of their charges?  How dare Adobe make money off of Microsofts hard work in developing Windows?  Pay the troll to cross your bridge, because you were the one that built it? Even if it is the only bridge there because you won’t let me build any other bridges because you built your bridge first?  Apple is a monopoly and if the US doesn’t act at least the EU will. 
    I don’t think you can install Mac software on Windows can you? So should Apple sue Microsoft?

    again, Epic doesn’t have to use Apple App Store, they can just stay on Android or Microsoft  but if they want to use Apple store, Apples house, Apples rules.
    edited May 4 watto_cobra
  • Reply 47 of 72
    eimoaotleimoaotl Posts: 8member
    eimoaotl said:
    eimoaotl said:
    There is a lot of vitriol on here against Epic.  I personally think that iOS has become like Windows and Mac, where it is a general operating system and that Apple should no longer be allowed to determine what I can and cannot do with the operating system.  My phone and my iPad are not like my gaming console - I use my iOS devices for basically everything, I use my xbox just for gaming and streaming shows.  I don’t think iOS and gaming consoles are equivalent.  But I do think iOS and windows are equivalent as they are both operating systems that enable me to do “limitless” things depending on software and how much limitation Microsoft and Apple actually put on them.  Same goes for the Mac my wife uses. Can you imagine how angry people would be if Windows mandated that everything now had to go through the Windows store and through their payment system?
    Windows has a dominant share of the computer operating system market.  iOS does not have a dominant share of the mobile operating system market in any country or geographical area.  You can choose to go somewhere else for your mobile platform if you are unhappy with the App Store.
    But it actually does have dominant market share in certain regions.  Windows was 77% of desktop in Q4 2020.  IOS is 61% of mobile in the US, and where I live it is around 9-10/10 kids using iOS products, and reasons they won’t use Android is because it makes their friends iMessage bubbles green. Seriously, that is what kids have told me.  And that not having Apple means you are poor, and no kids want to be seen as poor.  Apple did well on their lock-in to keep iMessage Apple only.  
    And Android can make non Android messages red! Are you serious right now?
    At what point will Apple become a monopoly?  Is it only when they have a higher market share than Windows does on Desktop?
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 49 of 72
    stukestuke Posts: 109member
    eimoaotl said:
    There is a lot of vitriol on here against Epic.  I personally think that iOS has become like Windows and Mac, where it is a general operating system and that Apple should no longer be allowed to determine what I can and cannot do with the operating system.  My phone and my iPad are not like my gaming console - I use my iOS devices for basically everything, I use my xbox just for gaming and streaming shows.  I don’t think iOS and gaming consoles are equivalent.  But I do think iOS and windows are equivalent as they are both operating systems that enable me to do “limitless” things depending on software and how much limitation Microsoft and Apple actually put on them.  Same goes for the Mac my wife uses. Can you imagine how angry people would be if Windows mandated that everything now had to go through the Windows store and through their payment system?
    OK, simple, don’t but Apple products or try to profit from a business you create off its investment in a platform. Android called and said let’s play. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 50 of 72
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 17,540member
    This is going  to be an....."Epic" fail.   :D

    Seriously, this might be the most open and shut case I've ever seen.  "We don't like Apple because they make money on hardware too.  Yeah, we violated the agreement on purpose and didn't try in good faith to renegotiate."   

    Good luck, fellas.  
    spock1234watto_cobra
  • Reply 51 of 72
    jd_in_sbjd_in_sb Posts: 1,589member
    His argument is as weak as dirt coffee
    Trey_Lancewatto_cobra
  • Reply 52 of 72
    Trey_LanceTrey_Lance Posts: 98member
    ‪@EpicGames is owned largely by China’s Tencent Media, who is basically is operated by the Chinese Communists and now they are going after Americas largest company. I mean, you don’t have to be Einstein to see what the Chinese Government is doing here through Epic to hit America.‬
    spock1234
  • Reply 53 of 72
    dewmedewme Posts: 3,615member
    eimoaotl said:
     I personally think that iOS has become like Windows and Mac, where it is a general operating system and that Apple should no longer be allowed to determine what I can and cannot do with the operating system. 
    So you’re saying that once a business and the ecosystem that it generates becomes massively successful and popular the creators and owners of that business should turn over control of their business to someone else? Do you feel the same way about your personal property or a business that you’ve created, grown, and maintained for decades? Apple’s operating systems and the underlying components are physical property and intellectual property of Apple and its shareholders (or licensed from other owners). I haven’t heard any of them saying, “why don’t we just give it all away.” Should Walmart, Publix, Facebook, and McDonalds follow the same pattern of build-grow-give it away? What do we do, thank them for their effort but declare “we are in charge now, please step aside?” 
    spock1234watto_cobra
  • Reply 54 of 72
    jungmarkjungmark Posts: 6,814member
    eimoaotl said:

    At what point will Apple become a monopoly?  Is it only when they have a higher market share than Windows does on Desktop?
    When they have a dominant market share. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 55 of 72
    hammeroftruthhammeroftruth Posts: 1,040member
    As far as day one went. It doesn’t look good for Epic. Especially since the judge appears to be not showing any empathy for Epic. She along with everyone else doesn’t understand how everyone else who sells Fortnite can charge 30% but Apple can’t. 

    One thing Apple could do is put console executives on the stand and ask them how they would feel if Epic forced them to change their terms and what that would do to their ecosystem. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 56 of 72
    omasouomasou Posts: 152member
    joekewe said:
    Maybe it's just the screen cap, but it looks like this guy is being deposed against one of the most powerful corporations in history ... from his attic? But I gotta give him credit for the Apple ][ in the background.

    I'm sure that entire shot was composed by advisors. Not sure how it benefits him but he looks like the stereotypical child in his mom's attic (basement).
    spock1234watto_cobra
  • Reply 57 of 72
    omasouomasou Posts: 152member
    davidw said:
    omasou said:
    If these quotes are even remotely correct. How in the world is this guy a CEO of any company?

    So consoles hardware is sold at a loss therefore they deserve a 30% commission rate but Apple makes a profit selling hardware so they do not? Really? Do you seriously think someone who has gone to college, law school and had the experience to become a judge is stupid enough to buy that line of reasoning? Please!
    Here's a more expanded version of what Sweeney actually said in court, about consoles selling at a loss. 

    >During his testimony, Sweeney said Epic does pay commissions to other platform owners such as Sony Group Corp's PlayStation and Microsoft Corp's Xbox but explained that those hardware makers use fees from developers to subsidize the further development of their hardware.

    Judge Gonzalez Rogers also asked her first direct questions of the trial during Sweeney's testimony, inquiring whether Apple's original iPhones from 2007 and 2008 were sophisticated enough to run Epic's video games. Sweeney said they were not.

    “So Apple did have to do something to the iPhone itself in order for it to be sophisticated enough to play your software? How is that any different than consoles?” she asked.

    Sweeney responded that the hardware development was similar, but the two devices had different business models.<


    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/epic-games-ceo-cites-apples-230408352.html


    Just because games console makers adapted the "give away the razor and sell the blades" business model, doesn't mean that they are losing money on the sale of game consoles. It has been proven many times over, that this is a very profitable business model. I'm willing to bet that a game console in it's lifetime, generate much, much more profit for the makers (from the sales of games), than an iPhone in its lifetime, generate for Apple, from the sale of apps. 

    When looking at the Yahoo link provided with suits and all those boxes...it makes me cringe to think of the money being wasted on this. Hope he has a new game in the pipeline, he'll need it to pay that bill.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 58 of 72
    maestro64maestro64 Posts: 4,938member
    Using this guys argument that he was okay paying a 30% commission to consoled suppliers since their business model was sell hardware at loss and having to make it up elsewhere and is okay giving more to a losing business model. Using this logic then all printer paper companies should have charge inkjet printer users more since the manufacturers also sold hardware at loss and tried making up loses with selling ink. Consumers should be happy giving charity to the paper companies since they saved on the hardware.

    Honestly, I am beginning to think this guy is tool, or  a useful idiot to make an issue out of nothings since he seem to think he is doing this for everyone else benefit. There has been talk for a long time about governments looking into Apple's market dominance. But it hard to say Apple is monopoly when you only have less then 50% of the market share which Apple has pointed out time and time again. What they really hate is the fact Apple is still taking massive profits even with their small share of the market. 

    The only argument going on here is that Apple has monopoly over its own platform and some how this is really bad. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 59 of 72
    dewmedewme Posts: 3,615member
    maestro64 said:

    The only argument going on here is that Apple has monopoly over its own platform and some how this is really bad. 
    Unfortunately, the Bell System (Ma Bell) was kind of in a similar situation (although it was a true monopoly in every sense versus a mindshare monopoly) and the US government broke it up to supposedly promote more competition and lower costs to consumers. 

    You could argue that they achieved the first objective but the second one is debatable, except long distance rates which became moot with technology evolution. 
    eimoaotlwatto_cobra
  • Reply 60 of 72
    anantksundaramanantksundaram Posts: 20,183member
    Looks like this may be over before it really started.

    Defense should rest.
    spock1234watto_cobra
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