I doubt any of us 11" users would have complained about the extra 1/2 milimeter and and 1.5 ounces of extra weight. This decision was driven by cost and supply concerns.
I would certainly not complain. The overall size is the biggest difference for me. I own a 12.9" iPad Pro and it's my least favorite iPad because it's simply too big, at least as a traditional tablet. If you recast the 12.9" iPad Pro as more of a touch screen notebook by attaching a keyboard & trackpad, that's a whole different story. The only issue then is that you're now up into MacBook Air/Pro price territory so the functional pros/cons for your specific needs becomes the deciding factor. In my mind the 12.9" iPad Pro is on the purchase decision matrix against MacBooks, not other iPads.
I hear exactly what the engineers are saying regarding iPadOS vs macOS. But I still overlay my own skepticism and think that they are both: 1) touting the company line and 2) stating a current state of conditions that are bound to limitations that other engineers within Apple are working very diligently to overcome. It's not unheard of for Apple to say one thing based on a current reality and to then create a new version of reality by overcoming the limitations or inadequate approaches that others have attempted prior to Apple stepping in and showing everyone how it should have been done in the first place. Nothing is cast in stone. If there is a really good way to converge macOS and iPadOS such that neither side is compromised, Apple will find a way to do it.
Yes, I agree.
I think its telling that they said the two would remain separate -- but gave no justification for that decision.
They explained why the 11" didn't get the upgraded display (even though their answer may be mostly bullshit) but for adding Bootcamp to the iPad it was just a straight, simple unexplained "No". It strongly suggests that the decision to keep them separate is a marketing, administrative or ideological one rather than a technical one.
On the other hand, they may not be going that route because they intend to bring iPadOS up to MacOS abilities. They have been doing that (it's part of the reason why the split it off from iOS). But, they've been doing it at a snail's pace -- they even tried to hide the addition of the cursor as an accessibility feature for the handicapped. It suggests that there are purists in the iPad development team that don't want to contaminate their pure product -- even though that limits its functionality and usefulness to the user.
This is the most likely route I see Apple taking. If they're adamant about letting the two platforms remain distinct, I don't see macOS coming to the iPad whether running natively or via a virtual machine.
Maybe not. Probably not.
But, they've been working on upgrading iPadOS for years now and its racing ahead at a snail's pace. They even tried to hide the addition of cursor behind it being an "Accessibility" feature for the handicapped. There appears to be resistance on the iPad team to upgrading iPadOS to making it a viable 2 in 1 machine.
So, now that the M1 can handle it, simply adding Bootcamp to the iPad solves that problem quickly and fairly easily -- or far more quickly and far more easily that upgrading iPadOS which has been going on for years now and likely still has years yet to go.
I see 2 in 1's as the future of high end mobile computing. But both the Mac line and iPad line are stuck in the past. Why? As these two guys demonstrated: it's the old "because I said so" routine. And that doesn't sell computers or satisfy customers -- especially when the answer to their question is: " just spend another grand or two on a second machine to do what you need -- then lug both of them around, along with your dongles". Or, to take it step further: Apple will never be a force in education (which they announced a few years back that they want to be) without a 2 in 1 machine. Schools are not going to buy every student a second machine. That's just silly. An iPad will cut it in the lower grades. But, by Middle School the student ALSO needs a laptop.
Still beating that dead horse, I see.
1. Apple isn’t going to do the thing you want. No means no.
2. They have explained why. You just choose to ignore that.
3. They are not wrong in their decision. Customers are clearly and consistently quite happy with their iPads and their MacBooks.
1. We'll see how long they continue to ship a shitty 2 in 1 device. Or, more correctly a great 1.5 in 1 device (great tablet, shitty laptop).
2. Yes, they did explain why: "Because I said so...." LOL... As I said earlier the bottleneck lies either in marketing or administration.
3. So you're saying a customer has to buy and lug around two devices when one should be able to do the job. Got it.
1. The iPad is designed to be a tablet, not a laptop. It is a great tablet. Calling it a “shitty laptop” is like calling it a “shitty home theater.”
2. They did explain why. It was designed to be a tablet, not a laptop. You can flip out a keyboard and type on it, but that doesn’t make it a laptop. They’re not trying to make it be a laptop. Likewise, you can watch a movie on it, but that doesn’t make it a home theater. They’re not trying to make it be a home theater.
3. Not at all. I’m saying a customer doesn’t have to lug around an ill-conceived 2-in-1 frankentech device when they just wanted an iPad to be a really great tablet and a MacBook to be a really great notebook computer.
1. That ended when they added an external keyboard and trackpad or mouse. Adding those makes it a laptop with a shitty OS.
2. See #1 above. And that REALLY ended when Apple started suggesting that it was laptop replacement. Remember: "What's a computer?"
3. When a customer needs a tablet and laptop (a 2 in 1) going with Apple they end up with not a 2 in 1 but 1.5 in 1 -- a good tablet and a shitty laptop. The solution that I have heard countless times in this forum is "just buy and carry both".
At one time all of your claims were true. But time marches on and things change. It's time Apple caught up.
1. You can use a magic key board with an iPhone. That does not make the iPhone a laptop. You can take phone calls on a MacBook Pro. That does not make it an iPhone. Adding a keyboard or mouse to an iPad does not make it a laptop. That makes it an iPad with a mouse or a keyboard. You can keep saying otherwise, but you’re wrong.
2. The “what’s a computer” ad was about iPad filling a niche as a highly useful tablet for a young person who wants to look at the internet, do some artwork, and type some things, and making the humorous point that a kid who starts out on an iPad to do all those things will look at a “computer” like she’d look at a rotary-dial telephone. It was not an ad featuring an office worker or other professional throwing out their computers in favor of an iPad. Just because you don’t get that doesn’t mean Apple was advertising the iPad as a laptop replacement.
3. Repeating ad nauseum that the iPad is a “shitty laptop” doesn’t make it one. See my post above. It’s not a shitty home theater, either.
It would seem that at some point you tried to use an iPad to do some unstated “real computer” function, and couldn’t make it do whatever thing that you wanted it to do (because guess what? It’s not a laptop!). Since then, you’ve rationalized your own misfortunes as a failing on Apple’s part for not adding whatever function it was that you wanted it to do. I don’t know what that thing was, but it’s caused you to make these sweeping pronouncements over and over and over again about Apple’s “failures” that the millions of other people who keep happily buying iPads and MacBooks just don’t see.
That just brings us back to the earlier point #1: Apple is not going to do the thing you want them to do. They’ve said it repeatedly: nope! Just take no for an answer and go buy a “Surface” 2-in-1 thing. They have what you want. Apple doesn’t, and they won’t.
I doubt any of us 11" users would have complained about the extra 1/2 milimeter and and 1.5 ounces of extra weight. This decision was driven by cost and supply concerns.
I would certainly not complain. The overall size is the biggest difference for me. I own a 12.9" iPad Pro and it's my least favorite iPad because it's simply too big, at least as a traditional tablet. If you recast the 12.9" iPad Pro as more of a touch screen notebook by attaching a keyboard & trackpad, that's a whole different story. The only issue then is that you're now up into MacBook Air/Pro price territory so the functional pros/cons for your specific needs becomes the deciding factor. In my mind the 12.9" iPad Pro is on the purchase decision matrix against MacBooks, not other iPads.
I hear exactly what the engineers are saying regarding iPadOS vs macOS. But I still overlay my own skepticism and think that they are both: 1) touting the company line and 2) stating a current state of conditions that are bound to limitations that other engineers within Apple are working very diligently to overcome. It's not unheard of for Apple to say one thing based on a current reality and to then create a new version of reality by overcoming the limitations or inadequate approaches that others have attempted prior to Apple stepping in and showing everyone how it should have been done in the first place. Nothing is cast in stone. If there is a really good way to converge macOS and iPadOS such that neither side is compromised, Apple will find a way to do it.
Yes, I agree.
I think its telling that they said the two would remain separate -- but gave no justification for that decision.
They explained why the 11" didn't get the upgraded display (even though their answer may be mostly bullshit) but for adding Bootcamp to the iPad it was just a straight, simple unexplained "No". It strongly suggests that the decision to keep them separate is a marketing, administrative or ideological one rather than a technical one.
On the other hand, they may not be going that route because they intend to bring iPadOS up to MacOS abilities. They have been doing that (it's part of the reason why the split it off from iOS). But, they've been doing it at a snail's pace -- they even tried to hide the addition of the cursor as an accessibility feature for the handicapped. It suggests that there are purists in the iPad development team that don't want to contaminate their pure product -- even though that limits its functionality and usefulness to the user.
This is the most likely route I see Apple taking. If they're adamant about letting the two platforms remain distinct, I don't see macOS coming to the iPad whether running natively or via a virtual machine.
Maybe not. Probably not.
But, they've been working on upgrading iPadOS for years now and its racing ahead at a snail's pace. They even tried to hide the addition of cursor behind it being an "Accessibility" feature for the handicapped. There appears to be resistance on the iPad team to upgrading iPadOS to making it a viable 2 in 1 machine.
So, now that the M1 can handle it, simply adding Bootcamp to the iPad solves that problem quickly and fairly easily -- or far more quickly and far more easily that upgrading iPadOS which has been going on for years now and likely still has years yet to go.
I see 2 in 1's as the future of high end mobile computing. But both the Mac line and iPad line are stuck in the past. Why? As these two guys demonstrated: it's the old "because I said so" routine. And that doesn't sell computers or satisfy customers -- especially when the answer to their question is: " just spend another grand or two on a second machine to do what you need -- then lug both of them around, along with your dongles". Or, to take it step further: Apple will never be a force in education (which they announced a few years back that they want to be) without a 2 in 1 machine. Schools are not going to buy every student a second machine. That's just silly. An iPad will cut it in the lower grades. But, by Middle School the student ALSO needs a laptop.
Still beating that dead horse, I see.
1. Apple isn’t going to do the thing you want. No means no.
2. They have explained why. You just choose to ignore that.
3. They are not wrong in their decision. Customers are clearly and consistently quite happy with their iPads and their MacBooks.
1. We'll see how long they continue to ship a shitty 2 in 1 device. Or, more correctly a great 1.5 in 1 device (great tablet, shitty laptop).
2. Yes, they did explain why: "Because I said so...." LOL... As I said earlier the bottleneck lies either in marketing or administration.
3. So you're saying a customer has to buy and lug around two devices when one should be able to do the job. Got it.
1. The iPad is designed to be a tablet, not a laptop. It is a great tablet. Calling it a “shitty laptop” is like calling it a “shitty home theater.”
2. They did explain why. It was designed to be a tablet, not a laptop. You can flip out a keyboard and type on it, but that doesn’t make it a laptop. They’re not trying to make it be a laptop. Likewise, you can watch a movie on it, but that doesn’t make it a home theater. They’re not trying to make it be a home theater.
3. Not at all. I’m saying a customer doesn’t have to lug around an ill-conceived 2-in-1 frankentech device when they just wanted an iPad to be a really great tablet and a MacBook to be a really great notebook computer.
1. That ended when they added an external keyboard and trackpad or mouse. Adding those makes it a laptop with a shitty OS.
2. See #1 above. And that REALLY ended when Apple started suggesting that it was laptop replacement. Remember: "What's a computer?"
3. When a customer needs a tablet and laptop (a 2 in 1) going with Apple they end up with not a 2 in 1 but 1.5 in 1 -- a good tablet and a shitty laptop. The solution that I have heard countless times in this forum is "just buy and carry both".
At one time all of your claims were true. But time marches on and things change. It's time Apple caught up.
I remember that ad. It was a great ad by the way and come when they introduced the 10.5" iPad Pro. But ever since Apple introduced the redesigned 11" / 12.9" iPad Pros in 2018, there hasn't been much chatter from Apple execs or ads about the iPad Pro being a laptop replacement. The most recent interview with Greg Joswiak when the M1 iPad Pro was announced he went out of his way to say that Apple's focused on making the best devices (Mac & iPad) in each of their respective categories.
Yeh, that's 100% true. Except I would add that they may have intentionally avoided that topic after getting slammed by reviewers trying to use it for laptop type work.
I doubt any of us 11" users would have complained about the extra 1/2 milimeter and and 1.5 ounces of extra weight. This decision was driven by cost and supply concerns.
I would certainly not complain. The overall size is the biggest difference for me. I own a 12.9" iPad Pro and it's my least favorite iPad because it's simply too big, at least as a traditional tablet. If you recast the 12.9" iPad Pro as more of a touch screen notebook by attaching a keyboard & trackpad, that's a whole different story. The only issue then is that you're now up into MacBook Air/Pro price territory so the functional pros/cons for your specific needs becomes the deciding factor. In my mind the 12.9" iPad Pro is on the purchase decision matrix against MacBooks, not other iPads.
I hear exactly what the engineers are saying regarding iPadOS vs macOS. But I still overlay my own skepticism and think that they are both: 1) touting the company line and 2) stating a current state of conditions that are bound to limitations that other engineers within Apple are working very diligently to overcome. It's not unheard of for Apple to say one thing based on a current reality and to then create a new version of reality by overcoming the limitations or inadequate approaches that others have attempted prior to Apple stepping in and showing everyone how it should have been done in the first place. Nothing is cast in stone. If there is a really good way to converge macOS and iPadOS such that neither side is compromised, Apple will find a way to do it.
Yes, I agree.
I think its telling that they said the two would remain separate -- but gave no justification for that decision.
They explained why the 11" didn't get the upgraded display (even though their answer may be mostly bullshit) but for adding Bootcamp to the iPad it was just a straight, simple unexplained "No". It strongly suggests that the decision to keep them separate is a marketing, administrative or ideological one rather than a technical one.
On the other hand, they may not be going that route because they intend to bring iPadOS up to MacOS abilities. They have been doing that (it's part of the reason why the split it off from iOS). But, they've been doing it at a snail's pace -- they even tried to hide the addition of the cursor as an accessibility feature for the handicapped. It suggests that there are purists in the iPad development team that don't want to contaminate their pure product -- even though that limits its functionality and usefulness to the user.
This is the most likely route I see Apple taking. If they're adamant about letting the two platforms remain distinct, I don't see macOS coming to the iPad whether running natively or via a virtual machine.
Maybe not. Probably not.
But, they've been working on upgrading iPadOS for years now and its racing ahead at a snail's pace. They even tried to hide the addition of cursor behind it being an "Accessibility" feature for the handicapped. There appears to be resistance on the iPad team to upgrading iPadOS to making it a viable 2 in 1 machine.
So, now that the M1 can handle it, simply adding Bootcamp to the iPad solves that problem quickly and fairly easily -- or far more quickly and far more easily that upgrading iPadOS which has been going on for years now and likely still has years yet to go.
I see 2 in 1's as the future of high end mobile computing. But both the Mac line and iPad line are stuck in the past. Why? As these two guys demonstrated: it's the old "because I said so" routine. And that doesn't sell computers or satisfy customers -- especially when the answer to their question is: " just spend another grand or two on a second machine to do what you need -- then lug both of them around, along with your dongles". Or, to take it step further: Apple will never be a force in education (which they announced a few years back that they want to be) without a 2 in 1 machine. Schools are not going to buy every student a second machine. That's just silly. An iPad will cut it in the lower grades. But, by Middle School the student ALSO needs a laptop.
Still beating that dead horse, I see.
1. Apple isn’t going to do the thing you want. No means no.
2. They have explained why. You just choose to ignore that.
3. They are not wrong in their decision. Customers are clearly and consistently quite happy with their iPads and their MacBooks.
1. We'll see how long they continue to ship a shitty 2 in 1 device. Or, more correctly a great 1.5 in 1 device (great tablet, shitty laptop).
2. Yes, they did explain why: "Because I said so...." LOL... As I said earlier the bottleneck lies either in marketing or administration.
3. So you're saying a customer has to buy and lug around two devices when one should be able to do the job. Got it.
1. The iPad is designed to be a tablet, not a laptop. It is a great tablet. Calling it a “shitty laptop” is like calling it a “shitty home theater.”
2. They did explain why. It was designed to be a tablet, not a laptop. You can flip out a keyboard and type on it, but that doesn’t make it a laptop. They’re not trying to make it be a laptop. Likewise, you can watch a movie on it, but that doesn’t make it a home theater. They’re not trying to make it be a home theater.
3. Not at all. I’m saying a customer doesn’t have to lug around an ill-conceived 2-in-1 frankentech device when they just wanted an iPad to be a really great tablet and a MacBook to be a really great notebook computer.
1. That ended when they added an external keyboard and trackpad or mouse. Adding those makes it a laptop with a shitty OS.
2. See #1 above. And that REALLY ended when Apple started suggesting that it was laptop replacement. Remember: "What's a computer?"
3. When a customer needs a tablet and laptop (a 2 in 1) going with Apple they end up with not a 2 in 1 but 1.5 in 1 -- a good tablet and a shitty laptop. The solution that I have heard countless times in this forum is "just buy and carry both".
At one time all of your claims were true. But time marches on and things change. It's time Apple caught up.
They are saying that it is a laptop replacement for most people, which is it. With the keyboard you can type faster. Mostly its for consumption, not creation. The iPad replaces the laptop for that set of customers who didn't need the Truck ( to use Steve Jobs' analogy), but got one when that was all that was available. but now can use a car.
And to those of you who think that a macOS app could run on an iPad, that might be true of a small subset of applications, but that isn't macOS on the iPad. Just as running some iOS apps on macOS doesn't turn macOS into iOS.
"3. So you're saying a customer has to buy and lug around two devices when one should be able to do the job. Got it. "
So you are saying.... is always a straw man argument. I don't have an iPad because I have a laptop. I "lug around" my iPhone when walking about.
Most people need 1 or 2 out of 3 of a phone, laptop and tablet. Almost nobody needs 3 of 3. If you want the laptop experience the new AIR, which is cheaper than some iPads, is for you.
Actually, the M1 iPad and the MacBook Air now have pretty similar hardware specs. So I find it likely that most Mac apps would run.
As for " Almost nobody needs 3 of 3." (Meaning tablet, laptop and phone)
My 8th grade grandson is one who does. Like most people his phone has become indispensable but will never replace a tablet or a laptop for his school work -- which requires both a laptop and a tablet with a pencil. I would estimate his work is about 2/3's - 3/4's laptop and the rest is done on a tablet with a pencil (that's mainly math and science but occasionally Social Studies where he has been asked to draw political cartoons and the like). Yes, he could physically do everything on his iPad (which has an external keyboard and trackpad). But because of the limitations of iPadOS it would be a major pain in the butt.
My experience tutoring him demonstrated the value -- or should I call it necessity -- of a two in one device.
Fortunately he was well covered: I had already bought him both a MacBook and an iPad (I just needed to add a pencil). Then his school eventually provided 2 in 1 machines with a pencil -- but mostly we still use his Apple equipment because it is so much better than the cheap school equipment.
I doubt any of us 11" users would have complained about the extra 1/2 milimeter and and 1.5 ounces of extra weight. This decision was driven by cost and supply concerns.
I would certainly not complain. The overall size is the biggest difference for me. I own a 12.9" iPad Pro and it's my least favorite iPad because it's simply too big, at least as a traditional tablet. If you recast the 12.9" iPad Pro as more of a touch screen notebook by attaching a keyboard & trackpad, that's a whole different story. The only issue then is that you're now up into MacBook Air/Pro price territory so the functional pros/cons for your specific needs becomes the deciding factor. In my mind the 12.9" iPad Pro is on the purchase decision matrix against MacBooks, not other iPads.
I hear exactly what the engineers are saying regarding iPadOS vs macOS. But I still overlay my own skepticism and think that they are both: 1) touting the company line and 2) stating a current state of conditions that are bound to limitations that other engineers within Apple are working very diligently to overcome. It's not unheard of for Apple to say one thing based on a current reality and to then create a new version of reality by overcoming the limitations or inadequate approaches that others have attempted prior to Apple stepping in and showing everyone how it should have been done in the first place. Nothing is cast in stone. If there is a really good way to converge macOS and iPadOS such that neither side is compromised, Apple will find a way to do it.
Yes, I agree.
I think its telling that they said the two would remain separate -- but gave no justification for that decision.
They explained why the 11" didn't get the upgraded display (even though their answer may be mostly bullshit) but for adding Bootcamp to the iPad it was just a straight, simple unexplained "No". It strongly suggests that the decision to keep them separate is a marketing, administrative or ideological one rather than a technical one.
On the other hand, they may not be going that route because they intend to bring iPadOS up to MacOS abilities. They have been doing that (it's part of the reason why the split it off from iOS). But, they've been doing it at a snail's pace -- they even tried to hide the addition of the cursor as an accessibility feature for the handicapped. It suggests that there are purists in the iPad development team that don't want to contaminate their pure product -- even though that limits its functionality and usefulness to the user.
This is the most likely route I see Apple taking. If they're adamant about letting the two platforms remain distinct, I don't see macOS coming to the iPad whether running natively or via a virtual machine.
Maybe not. Probably not.
But, they've been working on upgrading iPadOS for years now and its racing ahead at a snail's pace. They even tried to hide the addition of cursor behind it being an "Accessibility" feature for the handicapped. There appears to be resistance on the iPad team to upgrading iPadOS to making it a viable 2 in 1 machine.
So, now that the M1 can handle it, simply adding Bootcamp to the iPad solves that problem quickly and fairly easily -- or far more quickly and far more easily that upgrading iPadOS which has been going on for years now and likely still has years yet to go.
I see 2 in 1's as the future of high end mobile computing. But both the Mac line and iPad line are stuck in the past. Why? As these two guys demonstrated: it's the old "because I said so" routine. And that doesn't sell computers or satisfy customers -- especially when the answer to their question is: " just spend another grand or two on a second machine to do what you need -- then lug both of them around, along with your dongles". Or, to take it step further: Apple will never be a force in education (which they announced a few years back that they want to be) without a 2 in 1 machine. Schools are not going to buy every student a second machine. That's just silly. An iPad will cut it in the lower grades. But, by Middle School the student ALSO needs a laptop.
Still beating that dead horse, I see.
1. Apple isn’t going to do the thing you want. No means no.
2. They have explained why. You just choose to ignore that.
3. They are not wrong in their decision. Customers are clearly and consistently quite happy with their iPads and their MacBooks.
1. We'll see how long they continue to ship a shitty 2 in 1 device. Or, more correctly a great 1.5 in 1 device (great tablet, shitty laptop).
2. Yes, they did explain why: "Because I said so...." LOL... As I said earlier the bottleneck lies either in marketing or administration.
3. So you're saying a customer has to buy and lug around two devices when one should be able to do the job. Got it.
1. The iPad is designed to be a tablet, not a laptop. It is a great tablet. Calling it a “shitty laptop” is like calling it a “shitty home theater.”
2. They did explain why. It was designed to be a tablet, not a laptop. You can flip out a keyboard and type on it, but that doesn’t make it a laptop. They’re not trying to make it be a laptop. Likewise, you can watch a movie on it, but that doesn’t make it a home theater. They’re not trying to make it be a home theater.
3. Not at all. I’m saying a customer doesn’t have to lug around an ill-conceived 2-in-1 frankentech device when they just wanted an iPad to be a really great tablet and a MacBook to be a really great notebook computer.
1. That ended when they added an external keyboard and trackpad or mouse. Adding those makes it a laptop with a shitty OS.
2. See #1 above. And that REALLY ended when Apple started suggesting that it was laptop replacement. Remember: "What's a computer?"
3. When a customer needs a tablet and laptop (a 2 in 1) going with Apple they end up with not a 2 in 1 but 1.5 in 1 -- a good tablet and a shitty laptop. The solution that I have heard countless times in this forum is "just buy and carry both".
At one time all of your claims were true. But time marches on and things change. It's time Apple caught up.
They are saying that it is a laptop replacement for most people, which is it. With the keyboard you can type faster. Mostly its for consumption, not creation. The iPad replaces the laptop for that set of customers who didn't need the Truck ( to use Steve Jobs' analogy), but got one when that was all that was available. but now can use a car.
And to those of you who think that a macOS app could run on an iPad, that might be true of a small subset of applications, but that isn't macOS on the iPad. Just as running some iOS apps on macOS doesn't turn macOS into iOS.
"3. So you're saying a customer has to buy and lug around two devices when one should be able to do the job. Got it. "
So you are saying.... is always a straw man argument. I don't have an iPad because I have a laptop. I "lug around" my iPhone when walking about.
Most people need 1 or 2 out of 3 of a phone, laptop and tablet. Almost nobody needs 3 of 3. If you want the laptop experience the new AIR, which is cheaper than some iPads, is for you.
What he wants is something akin to the MS Surface Pro but made by Apple.
Yes, or said more generally, a "2 in 1" device that can function well in either role - and multiple vendors make them.
For a long time Apple didn't have the hardware that could function as a 2 in 1. But now they do. What's lacking is the software. Currently the iPad can function as a 2 in 1 with the addition of an external keyboard and trackpad. But, because of the limitations in iPadOS, it's just not very good at it.
To put it bluntly: WIndows 10 is a far better OS for a 2 in 1 than anything Apple has.
It's amazing how many people complain that Apple doesn't sell what they want. I'm sure that's true.
Some seem to think that I an am Apple Hater because I am sometimes critical of them. Nothing could be further from the truth.
In actuality I love and respect Apple and what it stands for. But, I am frustrated when I see that they can do better. My expectations for them are perhaps too high.
I doubt any of us 11" users would have complained about the extra 1/2 milimeter and and 1.5 ounces of extra weight. This decision was driven by cost and supply concerns.
I would certainly not complain. The overall size is the biggest difference for me. I own a 12.9" iPad Pro and it's my least favorite iPad because it's simply too big, at least as a traditional tablet. If you recast the 12.9" iPad Pro as more of a touch screen notebook by attaching a keyboard & trackpad, that's a whole different story. The only issue then is that you're now up into MacBook Air/Pro price territory so the functional pros/cons for your specific needs becomes the deciding factor. In my mind the 12.9" iPad Pro is on the purchase decision matrix against MacBooks, not other iPads.
I hear exactly what the engineers are saying regarding iPadOS vs macOS. But I still overlay my own skepticism and think that they are both: 1) touting the company line and 2) stating a current state of conditions that are bound to limitations that other engineers within Apple are working very diligently to overcome. It's not unheard of for Apple to say one thing based on a current reality and to then create a new version of reality by overcoming the limitations or inadequate approaches that others have attempted prior to Apple stepping in and showing everyone how it should have been done in the first place. Nothing is cast in stone. If there is a really good way to converge macOS and iPadOS such that neither side is compromised, Apple will find a way to do it.
Yes, I agree.
I think its telling that they said the two would remain separate -- but gave no justification for that decision.
They explained why the 11" didn't get the upgraded display (even though their answer may be mostly bullshit) but for adding Bootcamp to the iPad it was just a straight, simple unexplained "No". It strongly suggests that the decision to keep them separate is a marketing, administrative or ideological one rather than a technical one.
On the other hand, they may not be going that route because they intend to bring iPadOS up to MacOS abilities. They have been doing that (it's part of the reason why the split it off from iOS). But, they've been doing it at a snail's pace -- they even tried to hide the addition of the cursor as an accessibility feature for the handicapped. It suggests that there are purists in the iPad development team that don't want to contaminate their pure product -- even though that limits its functionality and usefulness to the user.
This is the most likely route I see Apple taking. If they're adamant about letting the two platforms remain distinct, I don't see macOS coming to the iPad whether running natively or via a virtual machine.
Maybe not. Probably not.
But, they've been working on upgrading iPadOS for years now and its racing ahead at a snail's pace. They even tried to hide the addition of cursor behind it being an "Accessibility" feature for the handicapped. There appears to be resistance on the iPad team to upgrading iPadOS to making it a viable 2 in 1 machine.
So, now that the M1 can handle it, simply adding Bootcamp to the iPad solves that problem quickly and fairly easily -- or far more quickly and far more easily that upgrading iPadOS which has been going on for years now and likely still has years yet to go.
I see 2 in 1's as the future of high end mobile computing. But both the Mac line and iPad line are stuck in the past. Why? As these two guys demonstrated: it's the old "because I said so" routine. And that doesn't sell computers or satisfy customers -- especially when the answer to their question is: " just spend another grand or two on a second machine to do what you need -- then lug both of them around, along with your dongles". Or, to take it step further: Apple will never be a force in education (which they announced a few years back that they want to be) without a 2 in 1 machine. Schools are not going to buy every student a second machine. That's just silly. An iPad will cut it in the lower grades. But, by Middle School the student ALSO needs a laptop.
Still beating that dead horse, I see.
1. Apple isn’t going to do the thing you want. No means no.
2. They have explained why. You just choose to ignore that.
3. They are not wrong in their decision. Customers are clearly and consistently quite happy with their iPads and their MacBooks.
1. We'll see how long they continue to ship a shitty 2 in 1 device. Or, more correctly a great 1.5 in 1 device (great tablet, shitty laptop).
2. Yes, they did explain why: "Because I said so...." LOL... As I said earlier the bottleneck lies either in marketing or administration.
3. So you're saying a customer has to buy and lug around two devices when one should be able to do the job. Got it.
1. The iPad is designed to be a tablet, not a laptop. It is a great tablet. Calling it a “shitty laptop” is like calling it a “shitty home theater.”
2. They did explain why. It was designed to be a tablet, not a laptop. You can flip out a keyboard and type on it, but that doesn’t make it a laptop. They’re not trying to make it be a laptop. Likewise, you can watch a movie on it, but that doesn’t make it a home theater. They’re not trying to make it be a home theater.
3. Not at all. I’m saying a customer doesn’t have to lug around an ill-conceived 2-in-1 frankentech device when they just wanted an iPad to be a really great tablet and a MacBook to be a really great notebook computer.
1. That ended when they added an external keyboard and trackpad or mouse. Adding those makes it a laptop with a shitty OS.
2. See #1 above. And that REALLY ended when Apple started suggesting that it was laptop replacement. Remember: "What's a computer?"
3. When a customer needs a tablet and laptop (a 2 in 1) going with Apple they end up with not a 2 in 1 but 1.5 in 1 -- a good tablet and a shitty laptop. The solution that I have heard countless times in this forum is "just buy and carry both".
At one time all of your claims were true. But time marches on and things change. It's time Apple caught up.
They are saying that it is a laptop replacement for most people, which is it. With the keyboard you can type faster. Mostly its for consumption, not creation. The iPad replaces the laptop for that set of customers who didn't need the Truck ( to use Steve Jobs' analogy), but got one when that was all that was available. but now can use a car.
And to those of you who think that a macOS app could run on an iPad, that might be true of a small subset of applications, but that isn't macOS on the iPad. Just as running some iOS apps on macOS doesn't turn macOS into iOS.
"3. So you're saying a customer has to buy and lug around two devices when one should be able to do the job. Got it. "
So you are saying.... is always a straw man argument. I don't have an iPad because I have a laptop. I "lug around" my iPhone when walking about.
Most people need 1 or 2 out of 3 of a phone, laptop and tablet. Almost nobody needs 3 of 3. If you want the laptop experience the new AIR, which is cheaper than some iPads, is for you.
What he wants is something akin to the MS Surface Pro but made by Apple.
Yes, or said more generally, a "2 in 1" device that can function well in either role - and multiple vendors make them.
For a long time Apple didn't have the hardware that could function as a 2 in 1. But now they do. What's lacking is the software. Currently the iPad can function as a 2 in 1 with the addition of an external keyboard and trackpad. But, because of the limitations in iPadOS, it's just not very good at it.
To put it bluntly: WIndows 10 is a far better OS for a 2 in 1 than anything Apple has.
That’s like saying Breyer’s “Rocky Road” is a far better ice cream than anything Apple has.
It's amazing how many people complain that Apple doesn't sell what they want. I'm sure that's true.
Some seem to think that I an am Apple Hater because I am sometimes critical of them. Nothing could be further from the truth.
In actuality I love and respect Apple and what it stands for. But, I am frustrated when I see that they can do better. My expectations for them are perhaps too high.
I'll try to remember that. Believe it or not, I don't have a good memory for who said what on these forums. I remember having some strong disagreements with you before, but I have no recollection what those disagreements were. While it's easy to get angry on semi-anonymous forums, it's also easy to forgive. The main reason it's easy for me to forgive is that I can't remember who offended me or why.
I doubt any of us 11" users would have complained about the extra 1/2 milimeter and and 1.5 ounces of extra weight. This decision was driven by cost and supply concerns.
I would certainly not complain. The overall size is the biggest difference for me. I own a 12.9" iPad Pro and it's my least favorite iPad because it's simply too big, at least as a traditional tablet. If you recast the 12.9" iPad Pro as more of a touch screen notebook by attaching a keyboard & trackpad, that's a whole different story. The only issue then is that you're now up into MacBook Air/Pro price territory so the functional pros/cons for your specific needs becomes the deciding factor. In my mind the 12.9" iPad Pro is on the purchase decision matrix against MacBooks, not other iPads.
I hear exactly what the engineers are saying regarding iPadOS vs macOS. But I still overlay my own skepticism and think that they are both: 1) touting the company line and 2) stating a current state of conditions that are bound to limitations that other engineers within Apple are working very diligently to overcome. It's not unheard of for Apple to say one thing based on a current reality and to then create a new version of reality by overcoming the limitations or inadequate approaches that others have attempted prior to Apple stepping in and showing everyone how it should have been done in the first place. Nothing is cast in stone. If there is a really good way to converge macOS and iPadOS such that neither side is compromised, Apple will find a way to do it.
Yes, I agree.
I think its telling that they said the two would remain separate -- but gave no justification for that decision.
They explained why the 11" didn't get the upgraded display (even though their answer may be mostly bullshit) but for adding Bootcamp to the iPad it was just a straight, simple unexplained "No". It strongly suggests that the decision to keep them separate is a marketing, administrative or ideological one rather than a technical one.
On the other hand, they may not be going that route because they intend to bring iPadOS up to MacOS abilities. They have been doing that (it's part of the reason why the split it off from iOS). But, they've been doing it at a snail's pace -- they even tried to hide the addition of the cursor as an accessibility feature for the handicapped. It suggests that there are purists in the iPad development team that don't want to contaminate their pure product -- even though that limits its functionality and usefulness to the user.
This is the most likely route I see Apple taking. If they're adamant about letting the two platforms remain distinct, I don't see macOS coming to the iPad whether running natively or via a virtual machine.
Maybe not. Probably not.
But, they've been working on upgrading iPadOS for years now and its racing ahead at a snail's pace. They even tried to hide the addition of cursor behind it being an "Accessibility" feature for the handicapped. There appears to be resistance on the iPad team to upgrading iPadOS to making it a viable 2 in 1 machine.
So, now that the M1 can handle it, simply adding Bootcamp to the iPad solves that problem quickly and fairly easily -- or far more quickly and far more easily that upgrading iPadOS which has been going on for years now and likely still has years yet to go.
I see 2 in 1's as the future of high end mobile computing. But both the Mac line and iPad line are stuck in the past. Why? As these two guys demonstrated: it's the old "because I said so" routine. And that doesn't sell computers or satisfy customers -- especially when the answer to their question is: " just spend another grand or two on a second machine to do what you need -- then lug both of them around, along with your dongles". Or, to take it step further: Apple will never be a force in education (which they announced a few years back that they want to be) without a 2 in 1 machine. Schools are not going to buy every student a second machine. That's just silly. An iPad will cut it in the lower grades. But, by Middle School the student ALSO needs a laptop.
Still beating that dead horse, I see.
1. Apple isn’t going to do the thing you want. No means no.
2. They have explained why. You just choose to ignore that.
3. They are not wrong in their decision. Customers are clearly and consistently quite happy with their iPads and their MacBooks.
1. We'll see how long they continue to ship a shitty 2 in 1 device. Or, more correctly a great 1.5 in 1 device (great tablet, shitty laptop).
2. Yes, they did explain why: "Because I said so...." LOL... As I said earlier the bottleneck lies either in marketing or administration.
3. So you're saying a customer has to buy and lug around two devices when one should be able to do the job. Got it.
1. The iPad is designed to be a tablet, not a laptop. It is a great tablet. Calling it a “shitty laptop” is like calling it a “shitty home theater.”
2. They did explain why. It was designed to be a tablet, not a laptop. You can flip out a keyboard and type on it, but that doesn’t make it a laptop. They’re not trying to make it be a laptop. Likewise, you can watch a movie on it, but that doesn’t make it a home theater. They’re not trying to make it be a home theater.
3. Not at all. I’m saying a customer doesn’t have to lug around an ill-conceived 2-in-1 frankentech device when they just wanted an iPad to be a really great tablet and a MacBook to be a really great notebook computer.
1. That ended when they added an external keyboard and trackpad or mouse. Adding those makes it a laptop with a shitty OS.
2. See #1 above. And that REALLY ended when Apple started suggesting that it was laptop replacement. Remember: "What's a computer?"
3. When a customer needs a tablet and laptop (a 2 in 1) going with Apple they end up with not a 2 in 1 but 1.5 in 1 -- a good tablet and a shitty laptop. The solution that I have heard countless times in this forum is "just buy and carry both".
At one time all of your claims were true. But time marches on and things change. It's time Apple caught up.
They are saying that it is a laptop replacement for most people, which is it. With the keyboard you can type faster. Mostly its for consumption, not creation. The iPad replaces the laptop for that set of customers who didn't need the Truck ( to use Steve Jobs' analogy), but got one when that was all that was available. but now can use a car.
And to those of you who think that a macOS app could run on an iPad, that might be true of a small subset of applications, but that isn't macOS on the iPad. Just as running some iOS apps on macOS doesn't turn macOS into iOS.
"3. So you're saying a customer has to buy and lug around two devices when one should be able to do the job. Got it. "
So you are saying.... is always a straw man argument. I don't have an iPad because I have a laptop. I "lug around" my iPhone when walking about.
Most people need 1 or 2 out of 3 of a phone, laptop and tablet. Almost nobody needs 3 of 3. If you want the laptop experience the new AIR, which is cheaper than some iPads, is for you.
What he wants is something akin to the MS Surface Pro but made by Apple.
Yes, or said more generally, a "2 in 1" device that can function well in either role - and multiple vendors make them.
For a long time Apple didn't have the hardware that could function as a 2 in 1. But now they do. What's lacking is the software. Currently the iPad can function as a 2 in 1 with the addition of an external keyboard and trackpad. But, because of the limitations in iPadOS, it's just not very good at it.
To put it bluntly: WIndows 10 is a far better OS for a 2 in 1 than anything Apple has.
Some time later this year, MS is reported to come out with its biggest update to Windows in over a decade (Code name: Sun Valley). So unless, Apple decides to add touch / Pencil support to the Mac, MS will probably hang on to that title. But going by what current Apple leadership have said on record, I don't get the feeling they're worried.
It's amazing how many people complain that Apple doesn't sell what they want. I'm sure that's true.
Some seem to think that I an am Apple Hater because I am sometimes critical of them. Nothing could be further from the truth.
In actuality I love and respect Apple and what it stands for. But, I am frustrated when I see that they can do better. My expectations for them are perhaps too high.
I'll try to remember that. Believe it or not, I don't have a good memory for who said what on these forums. I remember having some strong disagreements with you before, but I have no recollection what those disagreements were. While it's easy to get angry on semi-anonymous forums, it's also easy to forgive. The main reason it's easy for me to forgive is that I can't remember who offended me or why.
I doubt any of us 11" users would have complained about the extra 1/2 milimeter and and 1.5 ounces of extra weight. This decision was driven by cost and supply concerns.
I would certainly not complain. The overall size is the biggest difference for me. I own a 12.9" iPad Pro and it's my least favorite iPad because it's simply too big, at least as a traditional tablet. If you recast the 12.9" iPad Pro as more of a touch screen notebook by attaching a keyboard & trackpad, that's a whole different story. The only issue then is that you're now up into MacBook Air/Pro price territory so the functional pros/cons for your specific needs becomes the deciding factor. In my mind the 12.9" iPad Pro is on the purchase decision matrix against MacBooks, not other iPads.
I hear exactly what the engineers are saying regarding iPadOS vs macOS. But I still overlay my own skepticism and think that they are both: 1) touting the company line and 2) stating a current state of conditions that are bound to limitations that other engineers within Apple are working very diligently to overcome. It's not unheard of for Apple to say one thing based on a current reality and to then create a new version of reality by overcoming the limitations or inadequate approaches that others have attempted prior to Apple stepping in and showing everyone how it should have been done in the first place. Nothing is cast in stone. If there is a really good way to converge macOS and iPadOS such that neither side is compromised, Apple will find a way to do it.
Yes, I agree.
I think its telling that they said the two would remain separate -- but gave no justification for that decision.
They explained why the 11" didn't get the upgraded display (even though their answer may be mostly bullshit) but for adding Bootcamp to the iPad it was just a straight, simple unexplained "No". It strongly suggests that the decision to keep them separate is a marketing, administrative or ideological one rather than a technical one.
On the other hand, they may not be going that route because they intend to bring iPadOS up to MacOS abilities. They have been doing that (it's part of the reason why the split it off from iOS). But, they've been doing it at a snail's pace -- they even tried to hide the addition of the cursor as an accessibility feature for the handicapped. It suggests that there are purists in the iPad development team that don't want to contaminate their pure product -- even though that limits its functionality and usefulness to the user.
This is the most likely route I see Apple taking. If they're adamant about letting the two platforms remain distinct, I don't see macOS coming to the iPad whether running natively or via a virtual machine.
Maybe not. Probably not.
But, they've been working on upgrading iPadOS for years now and its racing ahead at a snail's pace. They even tried to hide the addition of cursor behind it being an "Accessibility" feature for the handicapped. There appears to be resistance on the iPad team to upgrading iPadOS to making it a viable 2 in 1 machine.
So, now that the M1 can handle it, simply adding Bootcamp to the iPad solves that problem quickly and fairly easily -- or far more quickly and far more easily that upgrading iPadOS which has been going on for years now and likely still has years yet to go.
I see 2 in 1's as the future of high end mobile computing. But both the Mac line and iPad line are stuck in the past. Why? As these two guys demonstrated: it's the old "because I said so" routine. And that doesn't sell computers or satisfy customers -- especially when the answer to their question is: " just spend another grand or two on a second machine to do what you need -- then lug both of them around, along with your dongles". Or, to take it step further: Apple will never be a force in education (which they announced a few years back that they want to be) without a 2 in 1 machine. Schools are not going to buy every student a second machine. That's just silly. An iPad will cut it in the lower grades. But, by Middle School the student ALSO needs a laptop.
Still beating that dead horse, I see.
1. Apple isn’t going to do the thing you want. No means no.
2. They have explained why. You just choose to ignore that.
3. They are not wrong in their decision. Customers are clearly and consistently quite happy with their iPads and their MacBooks.
1. We'll see how long they continue to ship a shitty 2 in 1 device. Or, more correctly a great 1.5 in 1 device (great tablet, shitty laptop).
2. Yes, they did explain why: "Because I said so...." LOL... As I said earlier the bottleneck lies either in marketing or administration.
3. So you're saying a customer has to buy and lug around two devices when one should be able to do the job. Got it.
1. The iPad is designed to be a tablet, not a laptop. It is a great tablet. Calling it a “shitty laptop” is like calling it a “shitty home theater.”
2. They did explain why. It was designed to be a tablet, not a laptop. You can flip out a keyboard and type on it, but that doesn’t make it a laptop. They’re not trying to make it be a laptop. Likewise, you can watch a movie on it, but that doesn’t make it a home theater. They’re not trying to make it be a home theater.
3. Not at all. I’m saying a customer doesn’t have to lug around an ill-conceived 2-in-1 frankentech device when they just wanted an iPad to be a really great tablet and a MacBook to be a really great notebook computer.
1. That ended when they added an external keyboard and trackpad or mouse. Adding those makes it a laptop with a shitty OS.
2. See #1 above. And that REALLY ended when Apple started suggesting that it was laptop replacement. Remember: "What's a computer?"
3. When a customer needs a tablet and laptop (a 2 in 1) going with Apple they end up with not a 2 in 1 but 1.5 in 1 -- a good tablet and a shitty laptop. The solution that I have heard countless times in this forum is "just buy and carry both".
At one time all of your claims were true. But time marches on and things change. It's time Apple caught up.
They are saying that it is a laptop replacement for most people, which is it. With the keyboard you can type faster. Mostly its for consumption, not creation. The iPad replaces the laptop for that set of customers who didn't need the Truck ( to use Steve Jobs' analogy), but got one when that was all that was available. but now can use a car.
And to those of you who think that a macOS app could run on an iPad, that might be true of a small subset of applications, but that isn't macOS on the iPad. Just as running some iOS apps on macOS doesn't turn macOS into iOS.
"3. So you're saying a customer has to buy and lug around two devices when one should be able to do the job. Got it. "
So you are saying.... is always a straw man argument. I don't have an iPad because I have a laptop. I "lug around" my iPhone when walking about.
Most people need 1 or 2 out of 3 of a phone, laptop and tablet. Almost nobody needs 3 of 3. If you want the laptop experience the new AIR, which is cheaper than some iPads, is for you.
What he wants is something akin to the MS Surface Pro but made by Apple.
Yes, or said more generally, a "2 in 1" device that can function well in either role - and multiple vendors make them.
For a long time Apple didn't have the hardware that could function as a 2 in 1. But now they do. What's lacking is the software. Currently the iPad can function as a 2 in 1 with the addition of an external keyboard and trackpad. But, because of the limitations in iPadOS, it's just not very good at it.
To put it bluntly: WIndows 10 is a far better OS for a 2 in 1 than anything Apple has.
Some time later this year, MS is reported to come out with its biggest update to Windows in over a decade (Code name: Sun Valley). So unless, Apple decides to add touch / Pencil support to the Mac, MS will probably hang on to that title. But going by what current Apple leadership have said on record, I don't get the feeling they're worried.
I agree that it's unlikely Apple will redesign any Mac as a 2 in 1.
But they're more than half way there with iPad.
And I agree too that Apple is not worried about what Microsoft might do. With the M1 they have unlocked a ton of potential -- much/most of which they haven't even hinted at.
Instead it sounds like Microsoft might be worried about Apple: in the clip you share they talk about developers -- and that (or the lack of) is largely what killed their ARM version of Windows: no apps.
Comments
2. The “what’s a computer” ad was about iPad filling a niche as a highly useful tablet for a young person who wants to look at the internet, do some artwork, and type some things, and making the humorous point that a kid who starts out on an iPad to do all those things will look at a “computer” like she’d look at a rotary-dial telephone. It was not an ad featuring an office worker or other professional throwing out their computers in favor of an iPad. Just because you don’t get that doesn’t mean Apple was advertising the iPad as a laptop replacement.
3. Repeating ad nauseum that the iPad is a “shitty laptop” doesn’t make it one. See my post above. It’s not a shitty home theater, either.
It would seem that at some point you tried to use an iPad to do some unstated “real computer” function, and couldn’t make it do whatever thing that you wanted it to do (because guess what? It’s not a laptop!). Since then, you’ve rationalized your own misfortunes as a failing on Apple’s part for not adding whatever function it was that you wanted it to do. I don’t know what that thing was, but it’s caused you to make these sweeping pronouncements over and over and over again about Apple’s “failures” that the millions of other people who keep happily buying iPads and MacBooks just don’t see.
That just brings us back to the earlier point #1: Apple is not going to do the thing you want them to do. They’ve said it repeatedly: nope! Just take no for an answer and go buy a “Surface” 2-in-1 thing. They have what you want. Apple doesn’t, and they won’t.
Yeh, that's 100% true. Except I would add that they may have intentionally avoided that topic after getting slammed by reviewers trying to use it for laptop type work.
https://www.windowscentral.com/satya-nadella-teases-big-updates-coming-soon-windows-build-2021
Yeh, same here...