iPadOS 15 confirms Apple's M1-equipped iPad Pro is a V8 engine powering a Ford Pinto

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  • Reply 81 of 128
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,179member
    Exactly. Compare the iPad Pro to the Surface Pro. See what kind of jobs a professional in any field can get done on those two devices. The only thing holding the iPad back is iPad OS and Apple's extremely limited vision.
    Fucking yawn, and what a ridiculous strategy to compare ANYTHING to Micro$haft who never innovated anything but only stole and copied its way into a quasi-monopoly position. If you think the Surface is such a great device, get one and stop your fucking whining about Apple not copying that “hugely successful product.” [rolls eyes]

    In the meantime adults understand iPadOS is being upgraded every year, and with each upgrade it brings with it millions upon millions of users with varying use cases of the machine, and the new M1 in the iPP portends even more expansion of this OS in the future which is very exciting.

    This site, its articles and forum discussions turn more into yet another MacRumors wannabe every fucking day, how very Microsoft, nothing original whatsoever, just chasing the latest whatever fad for continued relevance.
    Maybe you didn't notice, but Apple have been copying some elements from the Surface Pro to make the iPad Pro we have today.  For example, 5 years ago the Surface Pro 4 had a Pen (Apple Pencil), Windows Hello (FaceID), a keyboard w/ trackpad (Magic Keytboard) and multitasking / side-by-side apps, among other things.  Those features where so good that Apple thought that was a good idea to copy and include them in the iPad.  IMO, MS is a very innovative company.  You just need to see what is outside the Apple bubble.  
  • Reply 82 of 128
    DAalsethDAalseth Posts: 1,815member
    danvm said:
    Exactly. Compare the iPad Pro to the Surface Pro. See what kind of jobs a professional in any field can get done on those two devices. The only thing holding the iPad back is iPad OS and Apple's extremely limited vision.
    Fucking yawn, and what a ridiculous strategy to compare ANYTHING to Micro$haft who never innovated anything but only stole and copied its way into a quasi-monopoly position. If you think the Surface is such a great device, get one and stop your fucking whining about Apple not copying that “hugely successful product.” [rolls eyes]

    In the meantime adults understand iPadOS is being upgraded every year, and with each upgrade it brings with it millions upon millions of users with varying use cases of the machine, and the new M1 in the iPP portends even more expansion of this OS in the future which is very exciting.

    This site, its articles and forum discussions turn more into yet another MacRumors wannabe every fucking day, how very Microsoft, nothing original whatsoever, just chasing the latest whatever fad for continued relevance.
    Maybe you didn't notice, but Apple have been copying some elements from the Surface Pro to make the iPad Pro we have today.  For example, 5 years ago the Surface Pro 4 had a Pen (Apple Pencil), Windows Hello (FaceID), a keyboard w/ trackpad (Magic Keytboard) and multitasking / side-by-side apps, among other things.  Those features where so good that Apple thought that was a good idea to copy and include them in the iPad.  IMO, MS is a very innovative company.  You just need to see what is outside the Apple bubble.  
    A good point. MS post Balmer has gotten to be very good. Win10 is not my favourite, but it isn’t the S***S*** that 8 was, or the malware infested, buggy freak-show that 7, XP and on back were. Their apps are more solid, and more secure. While I make a point of avoiding MS stuff, I don’t like their design ethic, They do make good stuff…now. 
    edited June 11 watto_cobra
  • Reply 83 of 128
    entropysentropys Posts: 3,200member
    AppleZulu said:
    ITGUYINSD said:
    AppleZulu said:
    So Apple releases expensive hardware with obvious capacity for future expansion of operating system capabilities, and the complaint is that the OS doesn’t max out the hardware out of the gate. Got it.

    Of course, if iPadOS already took full advantage of the capabilities of the M1 model, there would be much louder complaints about how last year’s pre-M1 hardware has been rendered obsolete so quickly by OS features the pre-M1 devices can’t handle. 
    "Out of the gate"?  iPadOS 14.5 was what was on the iPad Pro M1 out of the gate.  To be honest, what I saw on WWDC should have been iPadOS 14.6.  
    When there is a major version number change, I expect big changes.  iPadOS 15 has been in the works for quite a while.  Apple had plenty of time to design it to utilize the power of the M1 platform.  Instead we get pretty much nothing.  I think that is the point being made here.
    Fortunately, Apple doesn’t build its plans around fiduciary quarters or itchy chat forum myopia. The M1 iPad hardware surely foreshadows interesting plans for coming years, despite all the kids who demand to be served cake as an appetizer. 
    Apple is supposed to be about a complete, integrated vision of hardware and software.  It is why people buy Apple stuff at a premium. Buying hardware because it is possible it might have software to match “one day” is not a good strategy. It would be better to go with a cheaper product now and get the latest hardware when the software catches up.
    williamlondondewmeMplsPwatto_cobra
  • Reply 84 of 128
    WgkruegerWgkrueger Posts: 347member
    DAalseth said:
    AppleZulu said:
    DAalseth said:
    AppleZulu said:
    ITGUYINSD said:
    AppleZulu said:
    So Apple releases expensive hardware with obvious capacity for future expansion of operating system capabilities, and the complaint is that the OS doesn’t max out the hardware out of the gate. Got it.

    Of course, if iPadOS already took full advantage of the capabilities of the M1 model, there would be much louder complaints about how last year’s pre-M1 hardware has been rendered obsolete so quickly by OS features the pre-M1 devices can’t handle. 
    "Out of the gate"?  iPadOS 14.5 was what was on the iPad Pro M1 out of the gate.  To be honest, what I saw on WWDC should have been iPadOS 14.6.  
    When there is a major version number change, I expect big changes.  iPadOS 15 has been in the works for quite a while.  Apple had plenty of time to design it to utilize the power of the M1 platform.  Instead we get pretty much nothing.  I think that is the point being made here.
    Fortunately, Apple doesn’t build its plans around fiduciary quarters or itchy chat forum myopia. The M1 iPad hardware surely foreshadows interesting plans for coming years, despite all the kids who demand to be served cake as an appetizer. 
    I see what you’re saying, but I’ve been around computers long enough to be a bit gun-shy when something comes out and there are promises that “trust us it will be used/implimented in a year or so”. I have a history of computers with PDS slots, NuBuss slots, ports that “just need drivers”, and more that never actually became functional. I mean products from Apple and a lot of other manufacturers. This time we are only getting these assertions from columnists, leakers, and random people on the web, and not from Apple so it’s even sketchier. Will I get a new iPadPro? Probably, but iOS 15 did nothing to whet my appetite. Multitasking is better, but not full bore. We’ll see what the Files app does, it’s getting better, but it’s not full function. External monitor support is not improved at all. There’s a LOT of RAM in these things, but what is it for? I will be watching as iOS15 comes more clearly into focus over the next three months. That will likely define if I go for a 2021 iPP or wait to see what happens next year. 
    Apple doesn’t make it a habit of revealing anything up the pipeline that it isn’t necessary to reveal, for what should be obvious reasons. Because their hardware and software are planned concurrently in-house, they probably have a longer (to mix some metaphors) roadmap than most competitors. Undoubtedly there are indeed dead-ends and plans that ultimately don’t get implemented. I would argue their propensity not to try to be first to whimsically incorporate every new bell, whistle and shiny object makes those bridges to nowhere less common than with their competitors. 

    That said, it seems unlikely that they would roll out the current M1 iPad Pro with no plan for how they will use the headroom everybody’s all worked up about on this thread. It seems far more likely that there are plans ahead for that, and this device, being the first to use M-series guts is intentionally designed not to become obsolete too quickly. 
    That’s the reason I’m still leaning toward getting an M1 iPP. You’re right, Apple wouldn’t roll out this powerful a machine if they didn’t have plans for it. The question is how quick will they be able to do it? That said I can see some real benefits of updating my iPad now, even withiPadOS 14.x. 8GB of RAM is twice what I have now. That means more layers and larger layers in Procreate. The chip is much faster and has much better graphics. That means video editing, and games will be smoother and more capable. There are good reasons to update from my 2017 iPP. 

    But it’s like the first shoe has dropped and I’m waiting. 
    What size are you considering, 11” or 12.9”?
  • Reply 85 of 128
    WgkruegerWgkrueger Posts: 347member
    entropys said:
    AppleZulu said:
    ITGUYINSD said:
    AppleZulu said:
    So Apple releases expensive hardware with obvious capacity for future expansion of operating system capabilities, and the complaint is that the OS doesn’t max out the hardware out of the gate. Got it.

    Of course, if iPadOS already took full advantage of the capabilities of the M1 model, there would be much louder complaints about how last year’s pre-M1 hardware has been rendered obsolete so quickly by OS features the pre-M1 devices can’t handle. 
    "Out of the gate"?  iPadOS 14.5 was what was on the iPad Pro M1 out of the gate.  To be honest, what I saw on WWDC should have been iPadOS 14.6.  
    When there is a major version number change, I expect big changes.  iPadOS 15 has been in the works for quite a while.  Apple had plenty of time to design it to utilize the power of the M1 platform.  Instead we get pretty much nothing.  I think that is the point being made here.
    Fortunately, Apple doesn’t build its plans around fiduciary quarters or itchy chat forum myopia. The M1 iPad hardware surely foreshadows interesting plans for coming years, despite all the kids who demand to be served cake as an appetizer. 
    Apple is supposed to be about a complete, integrated vision of hardware and software.  It is why people buy Apple stuff at a premium. Buying hardware because it is possible it might have software to match “one day” is not a good strategy. It would be better to go with a cheaper product now and get the latest hardware when the software catches up.
    Live It, or Live With It! 
  • Reply 86 of 128
    AppleZuluAppleZulu Posts: 1,273member
    entropys said:
    AppleZulu said:
    ITGUYINSD said:
    AppleZulu said:
    So Apple releases expensive hardware with obvious capacity for future expansion of operating system capabilities, and the complaint is that the OS doesn’t max out the hardware out of the gate. Got it.

    Of course, if iPadOS already took full advantage of the capabilities of the M1 model, there would be much louder complaints about how last year’s pre-M1 hardware has been rendered obsolete so quickly by OS features the pre-M1 devices can’t handle. 
    "Out of the gate"?  iPadOS 14.5 was what was on the iPad Pro M1 out of the gate.  To be honest, what I saw on WWDC should have been iPadOS 14.6.  
    When there is a major version number change, I expect big changes.  iPadOS 15 has been in the works for quite a while.  Apple had plenty of time to design it to utilize the power of the M1 platform.  Instead we get pretty much nothing.  I think that is the point being made here.
    Fortunately, Apple doesn’t build its plans around fiduciary quarters or itchy chat forum myopia. The M1 iPad hardware surely foreshadows interesting plans for coming years, despite all the kids who demand to be served cake as an appetizer. 
    Apple is supposed to be about a complete, integrated vision of hardware and software.  It is why people buy Apple stuff at a premium. Buying hardware because it is possible it might have software to match “one day” is not a good strategy. It would be better to go with a cheaper product now and get the latest hardware when the software catches up.
    The software and hardware are fully integrated already. 

    People are going to reasonably expect that a $1,000++ iPad Pro will still be working well in several years, updated to the then-current operating system. 

    Your idea that the OS should use all of the hardware’s capacity right out of the box is a recipe for one-year planned obsolescence. I can say with great confidence that such a device would be hugely unpopular after that first year. 
    williamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 87 of 128
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 10,713member
    To my previous point:  Microsoft doesn't make laptops or desktops.  They have no sales to cannibalize, so they have no loss in creating a convertible device. 

    Apple does.

    Steve never worried about cannibalizing sales.  He figured "If we don't, somebody else will".   Smart guy that Mr Jobs.
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 88 of 128
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 10,713member
    Rayz2016 said:
    Lots of folk holding up the Surface as proof of what Apple can do. 

    I’m wondering in which years the Surface outsold the iPad or the MacBooks. 
    The comparison shouldn't be limited to the Surface line -- but to all 2-in-1's -- which are now sold by almost every PC vendor (but Apple).  Unfortunately I am not aware of any breakout of the sales numbers. 




  • Reply 89 of 128
    mattinozmattinoz Posts: 1,686member
    Funny people saying Apple didn’t release Final Cut Pro for M1 iPad Pro at WWDC is a sign they don’t take the pro name seriously seem to forget Final Cut Pro major announcements have always been at NAB where there are professionals in those industries.



    williamlondonDAalsethwatto_cobra
  • Reply 90 of 128
    PdybmanPdybman Posts: 10member
    AppleZulu said:
    So Apple releases expensive hardware with obvious capacity for future expansion of operating system capabilities, and the complaint is that the OS doesn’t max out the hardware out of the gate. Got it.

    Of course, if iPadOS already took full advantage of the capabilities of the M1 model, there would be much louder complaints about how last year’s pre-M1 hardware has been rendered obsolete so quickly by OS features the pre-M1 devices can’t handle. 
    The M1 iPad Pro was released with iPadOS 14.5.  Version 15 is now in beta and doesn’t fundamentally change the multitasking experience.  What reason is there now to expect that Apple will ever make significant changes to the UI in the future, if they chose not to do so in iPadOS15?  

    As to your second point, the A12 chips in the prior iPads were used in the developer transition kit to run an ARM build of macOS (with its much deeper multi-tasking and windowing support), and the chip ran macOS just fine.  Clearly they have enough horsepower.  So I highly doubt that if Apple added the changes requested here in this article that the 2018 and 2020 iPad Pros would be rendered obsolete.  

    Until Apple makes fundamental changes to iPadOS, the M1 chip is a waste of hardware honestly.  The A12z in the 2020 version is just fine.  The only real difference with M1 is the addition of thunderbolt so you can connect to peripherals like 10gbps lan cards, high speed storage, etc. But other than that, there’s nothing about the iPadOS experience that is significantly different on M1 vs the A12x/A12z.  Multi monitor support is still limited to 4x3 and does not scale to the 16x9 or 16x10 aspect ratio of monitors.  iPadOS has some fundamental limitations, even though the hardware itself has been proven to not be limited in that regard, as M1 and A12x/A12z can run the more complicated window manager of macOS.   And we have to tell the truth.  
    Yes but most people commenting here are in the 10%, at most, of iPad buyers. Heavy users, pro graphic designers or photo or video editors who would love to ditch their Mac OS machine, but still can’t. Is Apple wrong to listen to the remaining 90% of its clients, and continue producing, and selling loads of a very simple to use tablet? So what if it’s over specced? I have a 2018 Pro 12.9, and my wife just got a new M1 one. Yes the difference is not extreme, but she doesn’t care. She’s thrilled, and will continue doing her iMovie editing of clips we shoot on music we edit in GarageBand. Because it’s enough for us. Sure, more pro features in the OS could be nice, and open the door for more pro apps. But they may turn out to be beyond our capacities, and/or time to adapt to more pro software. And most buyers are even less versed in that, they want a great screen and a fast UI, but mostly an easy to understand UI. Even if we both know that it could do more if only…Just admit that you guys are in a vocal, but very small minority. And Apple’s business is to sell to the silent majority. Finally, if you want cutting edge prototype style software and hardware, there’s always Indiegogo and Kickstarter for you…
    GeorgeBMacwatto_cobra
  • Reply 91 of 128
    Good lord, Apple has been working on convergence of the 2 platforms for more than a decade. The M1 chip is a major milestone on this journey. Whilst it is great that people are pointing out the approximate path Apple has to take in the future, it reminds me of the whining that took place when the iPhone V1 came out that it did not support non Apple apps.
  • Reply 92 of 128
    AppleZuluAppleZulu Posts: 1,273member
    AppleZulu said:
    Ofer said:
    rcfa said:
    I own an iPad since the first model that Apple brought to market. I justified the purchasing prices for my by now three iPads (original, Air, Pro), by comparing it with the cost, weight, bulk and hassle of producing, maintaining and carrying paper photo albums vs. carrying an iPad.

    Everything else, like watching Netflix in bed, jotting down a note, or quickly checking an e-mail, are fringe benefits. Despite the latest iPad of mine being a 12” A12X based iPad Pro with 1TB of storage, it NEVER was more for me than a photo album and media consumption device, and certainly NOTHING that deserved the name Pro, not even for something as trivial as e-mail does it deserve that name, for what sort of “Pro” solution is an e-mail system that doesn’t allow the user to inspect a messages RAW content to see if something is real or an elaborate phishing e-mail? At best, it might qualify as a semi-pro accessory to a Mac, if one uses it as a Wacom Tablet replacement with Sidecar or some third party software like AirDisplay.

    When the MagicKeyboard hit the market, it endeavored into an expensive experiment: would a MagicKeyboard change how I worked with the iPad Pro? Would a cigarette box sized Raspberry Pi 8GB RAM Linux system attached, networked and powered over the USB-C connection and operated over RDP, make up for some of the shortcomings of iPad OS (e.g. by running a real e-mail client like Thunderbird on the Raspberry, by having Mathematica on the Raspberry, by having development and network testing tools on the linux system, etc.)?

    The answer was a resounding YES in both cases, but more importantly, it showed me that the iPad Pro with MagicKeyboard was the HARDWARE I always wished a MacBook Air would be: Much better screen, touch screen, pen input, etc. At the same time, the more I worked with the MagicKeyboard, the more painful the shortcomings of iPadOS became.

    Yes, I get the difference between a mouse/trackpad&keyboard driven UI and a touch UI. I get that macOS is the former and iPadOS is the latter…
    …BUT, branding aside, macOS and iPadOS are fundamentally the same OS (Darwin), with different UI layers. With the new iPad Pros (A12X and up with 6GB RAM or more) there is no hardware issue with running macOS. And just as macOS apps can have a windowed mode and a full screen mode, there’s nothing that stops the same app from in addition having a touch UI mode. So one could have an adaptive OS, which adjusts the UI based on whether docked with pointing device and keyboard, or used standalone in touch UI mode.

    With the M1 version, and its up to 2TB of SSD and 16GB RAM, there could be even another solution: virtualization. Run macOS virtualized in an iPadOS app, and switch to it when docked, and suspend it when undocked. 

    Even working on a slow-poke system like a Raspberry Pi “remotely” over USB-C and RDP makes the iPad Pro feel like a seamless laptop, that lets me miss nothing (except for macOS rather than Linux), so how much better would a virtualized macOS be, that would run at nearly native speed, and would gain tablet input, and instant switching between iPadOS and macOS? How cool would it be to run Xcode on the virtualized macOS system, and then test the app directly on the iPad?

    It would be awesome, beyond words. And what would Apple have to do to make this possible? Nothing. Less than nothing. All they would need to do is to stop actively sabotaging virtualization apps on iPadOS, and a third party solution would spring up in short order.

    Now, why is Apple getting in its own way?

    The answer is easy: they don’t have “software and hardware divisions”, which if they did, they wouldn’t care which of their operating systems you ran on which of their hardware devices, but they have “Mac, iDevice, aTV, etc. divisions”, and so the Mac division has no interest in driving iDevice sales by spending man hours making their software available on the competing division’s hardware, while digging their own hardware’s grave. The video of how the iPad division went to steal the M1 chip from the Mac division, was in a strange way revealing of why we have the problems as Pro users with the iPad Pro and its media consumption platform operating system.
    The pessimist in me would offer another reason for why Apple won’t offer full MacOS capabilities on an iPad: $$. As long as they offer them as two different platforms with different capabilities they can continue to get people out there to purchase both. If they offered an iPad as a dockable system with full macOS capabilities it would cannibalise MacBook sales. Why purchase both if you can get an all-in-one experience. 
    Or, combining the two would create a single device that’s not as good as either machine separately. 

    You obviously don't have much confidence in Apple.

    Microsoft did it pretty well.   I think Apple can do even better.   
    No means no, you know.
    williamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 93 of 128
    AppleZuluAppleZulu Posts: 1,273member
    To my previous point:  Microsoft doesn't make laptops or desktops.  They have no sales to cannibalize, so they have no loss in creating a convertible device. 

    Apple does.

    Steve never worried about cannibalizing sales.  He figured "If we don't, somebody else will".   Smart guy that Mr Jobs.
    You obviously didn’t see someone else already tried that nugget. I repeat my response to that.

    Apple isn't afraid to cannibalize their own products. When's the last time you bought an iPod?  When's the last time you purchased music on iTunes? They're just not stupid enough to look at the MS Surface and think they need to scrap two vastly more successful products and sell a copy of that instead. 
    williamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 94 of 128
    DAalsethDAalseth Posts: 1,815member
    Wgkrueger said:
    DAalseth said:
    AppleZulu said:
    DAalseth said:
    AppleZulu said:
    ITGUYINSD said:
    AppleZulu said:
    So Apple releases expensive hardware with obvious capacity for future expansion of operating system capabilities, and the complaint is that the OS doesn’t max out the hardware out of the gate. Got it.

    Of course, if iPadOS already took full advantage of the capabilities of the M1 model, there would be much louder complaints about how last year’s pre-M1 hardware has been rendered obsolete so quickly by OS features the pre-M1 devices can’t handle. 
    "Out of the gate"?  iPadOS 14.5 was what was on the iPad Pro M1 out of the gate.  To be honest, what I saw on WWDC should have been iPadOS 14.6.  
    When there is a major version number change, I expect big changes.  iPadOS 15 has been in the works for quite a while.  Apple had plenty of time to design it to utilize the power of the M1 platform.  Instead we get pretty much nothing.  I think that is the point being made here.
    Fortunately, Apple doesn’t build its plans around fiduciary quarters or itchy chat forum myopia. The M1 iPad hardware surely foreshadows interesting plans for coming years, despite all the kids who demand to be served cake as an appetizer. 
    I see what you’re saying, but I’ve been around computers long enough to be a bit gun-shy when something comes out and there are promises that “trust us it will be used/implimented in a year or so”. I have a history of computers with PDS slots, NuBuss slots, ports that “just need drivers”, and more that never actually became functional. I mean products from Apple and a lot of other manufacturers. This time we are only getting these assertions from columnists, leakers, and random people on the web, and not from Apple so it’s even sketchier. Will I get a new iPadPro? Probably, but iOS 15 did nothing to whet my appetite. Multitasking is better, but not full bore. We’ll see what the Files app does, it’s getting better, but it’s not full function. External monitor support is not improved at all. There’s a LOT of RAM in these things, but what is it for? I will be watching as iOS15 comes more clearly into focus over the next three months. That will likely define if I go for a 2021 iPP or wait to see what happens next year. 
    Apple doesn’t make it a habit of revealing anything up the pipeline that it isn’t necessary to reveal, for what should be obvious reasons. Because their hardware and software are planned concurrently in-house, they probably have a longer (to mix some metaphors) roadmap than most competitors. Undoubtedly there are indeed dead-ends and plans that ultimately don’t get implemented. I would argue their propensity not to try to be first to whimsically incorporate every new bell, whistle and shiny object makes those bridges to nowhere less common than with their competitors. 

    That said, it seems unlikely that they would roll out the current M1 iPad Pro with no plan for how they will use the headroom everybody’s all worked up about on this thread. It seems far more likely that there are plans ahead for that, and this device, being the first to use M-series guts is intentionally designed not to become obsolete too quickly. 
    That’s the reason I’m still leaning toward getting an M1 iPP. You’re right, Apple wouldn’t roll out this powerful a machine if they didn’t have plans for it. The question is how quick will they be able to do it? That said I can see some real benefits of updating my iPad now, even withiPadOS 14.x. 8GB of RAM is twice what I have now. That means more layers and larger layers in Procreate. The chip is much faster and has much better graphics. That means video editing, and games will be smoother and more capable. There are good reasons to update from my 2017 iPP. 

    But it’s like the first shoe has dropped and I’m waiting. 
    What size are you considering, 11” or 12.9”?
    I thought about the 12.9, but really the 11 has a big enough screen to do everything I need. The bigger one would add weight, and size but I'm not sure I'd get enough benefit to justify the extra cost. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 95 of 128
    AppleZuluAppleZulu Posts: 1,273member
    Good lord, Apple has been working on convergence of the 2 platforms for more than a decade. The M1 chip is a major milestone on this journey. Whilst it is great that people are pointing out the approximate path Apple has to take in the future, it reminds me of the whining that took place when the iPhone V1 came out that it did not support non Apple apps.
    All the while insisting - without equivocation - that they are not. 

    Compatibility, overlapping features, etc., sure, but Apple has been quite declarative that they are not converging these platforms. 

    The truth is that it is myopic to look at overlapping features of Apple’s notebooks and tablets and conclude that they must merge into one device. 

    Apple is extremely unlikely to create an OS that bridges the vast distance between an iPad and a Mac Pro. Oh, yeah. MacOS also runs the Mac Pro, which is not like a tablet. At all. 

    So with that in mind, merging the iPad and MacBook would be less likely to mean promoting the tablet to MacOS and more likely to mean demoting the notebook to iPadOS. You’re cringing, right? Of course you are, because that would be ridiculous. Not as ridiculous as the idea one person is about to respond with (again) that the iPad should become a dual-boot device with both operating systems. That’s just profoundly ridiculous. 

    So as Apple finds more ways to overlap devices and make their interactions more fluid, they’re not going to converge the tablet and notebook. 
    edited June 12 williamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 96 of 128
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 10,713member
    AppleZulu said:
    AppleZulu said:
    Ofer said:
    rcfa said:
    I own an iPad since the first model that Apple brought to market. I justified the purchasing prices for my by now three iPads (original, Air, Pro), by comparing it with the cost, weight, bulk and hassle of producing, maintaining and carrying paper photo albums vs. carrying an iPad.

    Everything else, like watching Netflix in bed, jotting down a note, or quickly checking an e-mail, are fringe benefits. Despite the latest iPad of mine being a 12” A12X based iPad Pro with 1TB of storage, it NEVER was more for me than a photo album and media consumption device, and certainly NOTHING that deserved the name Pro, not even for something as trivial as e-mail does it deserve that name, for what sort of “Pro” solution is an e-mail system that doesn’t allow the user to inspect a messages RAW content to see if something is real or an elaborate phishing e-mail? At best, it might qualify as a semi-pro accessory to a Mac, if one uses it as a Wacom Tablet replacement with Sidecar or some third party software like AirDisplay.

    When the MagicKeyboard hit the market, it endeavored into an expensive experiment: would a MagicKeyboard change how I worked with the iPad Pro? Would a cigarette box sized Raspberry Pi 8GB RAM Linux system attached, networked and powered over the USB-C connection and operated over RDP, make up for some of the shortcomings of iPad OS (e.g. by running a real e-mail client like Thunderbird on the Raspberry, by having Mathematica on the Raspberry, by having development and network testing tools on the linux system, etc.)?

    The answer was a resounding YES in both cases, but more importantly, it showed me that the iPad Pro with MagicKeyboard was the HARDWARE I always wished a MacBook Air would be: Much better screen, touch screen, pen input, etc. At the same time, the more I worked with the MagicKeyboard, the more painful the shortcomings of iPadOS became.

    Yes, I get the difference between a mouse/trackpad&keyboard driven UI and a touch UI. I get that macOS is the former and iPadOS is the latter…
    …BUT, branding aside, macOS and iPadOS are fundamentally the same OS (Darwin), with different UI layers. With the new iPad Pros (A12X and up with 6GB RAM or more) there is no hardware issue with running macOS. And just as macOS apps can have a windowed mode and a full screen mode, there’s nothing that stops the same app from in addition having a touch UI mode. So one could have an adaptive OS, which adjusts the UI based on whether docked with pointing device and keyboard, or used standalone in touch UI mode.

    With the M1 version, and its up to 2TB of SSD and 16GB RAM, there could be even another solution: virtualization. Run macOS virtualized in an iPadOS app, and switch to it when docked, and suspend it when undocked. 

    Even working on a slow-poke system like a Raspberry Pi “remotely” over USB-C and RDP makes the iPad Pro feel like a seamless laptop, that lets me miss nothing (except for macOS rather than Linux), so how much better would a virtualized macOS be, that would run at nearly native speed, and would gain tablet input, and instant switching between iPadOS and macOS? How cool would it be to run Xcode on the virtualized macOS system, and then test the app directly on the iPad?

    It would be awesome, beyond words. And what would Apple have to do to make this possible? Nothing. Less than nothing. All they would need to do is to stop actively sabotaging virtualization apps on iPadOS, and a third party solution would spring up in short order.

    Now, why is Apple getting in its own way?

    The answer is easy: they don’t have “software and hardware divisions”, which if they did, they wouldn’t care which of their operating systems you ran on which of their hardware devices, but they have “Mac, iDevice, aTV, etc. divisions”, and so the Mac division has no interest in driving iDevice sales by spending man hours making their software available on the competing division’s hardware, while digging their own hardware’s grave. The video of how the iPad division went to steal the M1 chip from the Mac division, was in a strange way revealing of why we have the problems as Pro users with the iPad Pro and its media consumption platform operating system.
    The pessimist in me would offer another reason for why Apple won’t offer full MacOS capabilities on an iPad: $$. As long as they offer them as two different platforms with different capabilities they can continue to get people out there to purchase both. If they offered an iPad as a dockable system with full macOS capabilities it would cannibalise MacBook sales. Why purchase both if you can get an all-in-one experience. 
    Or, combining the two would create a single device that’s not as good as either machine separately. 

    You obviously don't have much confidence in Apple.

    Microsoft did it pretty well.   I think Apple can do even better.   
    No means no, you know.

    Because you said so?

    You should be sure to call Tim and let him know what your decision was.
    edited June 12 muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 97 of 128
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 10,713member
    AppleZulu said:
    To my previous point:  Microsoft doesn't make laptops or desktops.  They have no sales to cannibalize, so they have no loss in creating a convertible device. 

    Apple does.

    Steve never worried about cannibalizing sales.  He figured "If we don't, somebody else will".   Smart guy that Mr Jobs.
    You obviously didn’t see someone else already tried that nugget. I repeat my response to that.

    Apple isn't afraid to cannibalize their own products. When's the last time you bought an iPod?  When's the last time you purchased music on iTunes? They're just not stupid enough to look at the MS Surface and think they need to scrap two vastly more successful products and sell a copy of that instead. 

    you obviously didn't see my response to that Surface nonsense.

    The comparison shouldn't be limited to the Surface line -- but to all 2-in-1's -- which are now sold by almost every PC vendor (but Apple).  Unfortunately I am not aware of any breakout of the sales numbers. 


  • Reply 98 of 128
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 10,713member
    AppleZulu said:
    Good lord, Apple has been working on convergence of the 2 platforms for more than a decade. The M1 chip is a major milestone on this journey. Whilst it is great that people are pointing out the approximate path Apple has to take in the future, it reminds me of the whining that took place when the iPhone V1 came out that it did not support non Apple apps.
    All the while insisting - without equivocation - that they are not. 

    Compatibility, overlapping features, etc., sure, but Apple has been quite declarative that they are not converging these platforms. 

    The truth is that it is myopic to look at overlapping features of Apple’s notebooks and tablets and conclude that they must merge into one device. 

    Apple is extremely unlikely to create an OS that bridges the vast distance between an iPad and a Mac Pro. Oh, yeah. MacOS also runs the Mac Pro, which is not like a tablet. At all. 

    So with that in mind, merging the iPad and MacBook would be less likely to mean promoting the tablet to MacOS and more likely to mean demoting the notebook to iPadOS. You’re cringing, right? Of course you are, because that would be ridiculous. Not as ridiculous as the idea one person is about to respond with (again) that the iPad should become a dual-boot device with both operating systems. That’s just profoundly ridiculous. 

    So as Apple finds more ways to overlap devices and make their interactions more fluid, they’re not going to converge the tablet and notebook. 

    I give you credit:
    You're very good at knocking down those strawmen you set up.
  • Reply 99 of 128
    AppleZuluAppleZulu Posts: 1,273member
    AppleZulu said:
    AppleZulu said:
    Ofer said:
    rcfa said:
    I own an iPad since the first model that Apple brought to market. I justified the purchasing prices for my by now three iPads (original, Air, Pro), by comparing it with the cost, weight, bulk and hassle of producing, maintaining and carrying paper photo albums vs. carrying an iPad.

    Everything else, like watching Netflix in bed, jotting down a note, or quickly checking an e-mail, are fringe benefits. Despite the latest iPad of mine being a 12” A12X based iPad Pro with 1TB of storage, it NEVER was more for me than a photo album and media consumption device, and certainly NOTHING that deserved the name Pro, not even for something as trivial as e-mail does it deserve that name, for what sort of “Pro” solution is an e-mail system that doesn’t allow the user to inspect a messages RAW content to see if something is real or an elaborate phishing e-mail? At best, it might qualify as a semi-pro accessory to a Mac, if one uses it as a Wacom Tablet replacement with Sidecar or some third party software like AirDisplay.

    When the MagicKeyboard hit the market, it endeavored into an expensive experiment: would a MagicKeyboard change how I worked with the iPad Pro? Would a cigarette box sized Raspberry Pi 8GB RAM Linux system attached, networked and powered over the USB-C connection and operated over RDP, make up for some of the shortcomings of iPad OS (e.g. by running a real e-mail client like Thunderbird on the Raspberry, by having Mathematica on the Raspberry, by having development and network testing tools on the linux system, etc.)?

    The answer was a resounding YES in both cases, but more importantly, it showed me that the iPad Pro with MagicKeyboard was the HARDWARE I always wished a MacBook Air would be: Much better screen, touch screen, pen input, etc. At the same time, the more I worked with the MagicKeyboard, the more painful the shortcomings of iPadOS became.

    Yes, I get the difference between a mouse/trackpad&keyboard driven UI and a touch UI. I get that macOS is the former and iPadOS is the latter…
    …BUT, branding aside, macOS and iPadOS are fundamentally the same OS (Darwin), with different UI layers. With the new iPad Pros (A12X and up with 6GB RAM or more) there is no hardware issue with running macOS. And just as macOS apps can have a windowed mode and a full screen mode, there’s nothing that stops the same app from in addition having a touch UI mode. So one could have an adaptive OS, which adjusts the UI based on whether docked with pointing device and keyboard, or used standalone in touch UI mode.

    With the M1 version, and its up to 2TB of SSD and 16GB RAM, there could be even another solution: virtualization. Run macOS virtualized in an iPadOS app, and switch to it when docked, and suspend it when undocked. 

    Even working on a slow-poke system like a Raspberry Pi “remotely” over USB-C and RDP makes the iPad Pro feel like a seamless laptop, that lets me miss nothing (except for macOS rather than Linux), so how much better would a virtualized macOS be, that would run at nearly native speed, and would gain tablet input, and instant switching between iPadOS and macOS? How cool would it be to run Xcode on the virtualized macOS system, and then test the app directly on the iPad?

    It would be awesome, beyond words. And what would Apple have to do to make this possible? Nothing. Less than nothing. All they would need to do is to stop actively sabotaging virtualization apps on iPadOS, and a third party solution would spring up in short order.

    Now, why is Apple getting in its own way?

    The answer is easy: they don’t have “software and hardware divisions”, which if they did, they wouldn’t care which of their operating systems you ran on which of their hardware devices, but they have “Mac, iDevice, aTV, etc. divisions”, and so the Mac division has no interest in driving iDevice sales by spending man hours making their software available on the competing division’s hardware, while digging their own hardware’s grave. The video of how the iPad division went to steal the M1 chip from the Mac division, was in a strange way revealing of why we have the problems as Pro users with the iPad Pro and its media consumption platform operating system.
    The pessimist in me would offer another reason for why Apple won’t offer full MacOS capabilities on an iPad: $$. As long as they offer them as two different platforms with different capabilities they can continue to get people out there to purchase both. If they offered an iPad as a dockable system with full macOS capabilities it would cannibalise MacBook sales. Why purchase both if you can get an all-in-one experience. 
    Or, combining the two would create a single device that’s not as good as either machine separately. 

    You obviously don't have much confidence in Apple.

    Microsoft did it pretty well.   I think Apple can do even better.   
    No means no, you know.

    Because you said so?

    You should be sure to call Tim and let him know what your decision was.
    Because Apple said so. Leadership at Apple that is not dead. 
    williamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 100 of 128
    AppleZuluAppleZulu Posts: 1,273member
    AppleZulu said:
    Good lord, Apple has been working on convergence of the 2 platforms for more than a decade. The M1 chip is a major milestone on this journey. Whilst it is great that people are pointing out the approximate path Apple has to take in the future, it reminds me of the whining that took place when the iPhone V1 came out that it did not support non Apple apps.
    All the while insisting - without equivocation - that they are not. 

    Compatibility, overlapping features, etc., sure, but Apple has been quite declarative that they are not converging these platforms. 

    The truth is that it is myopic to look at overlapping features of Apple’s notebooks and tablets and conclude that they must merge into one device. 

    Apple is extremely unlikely to create an OS that bridges the vast distance between an iPad and a Mac Pro. Oh, yeah. MacOS also runs the Mac Pro, which is not like a tablet. At all. 

    So with that in mind, merging the iPad and MacBook would be less likely to mean promoting the tablet to MacOS and more likely to mean demoting the notebook to iPadOS. You’re cringing, right? Of course you are, because that would be ridiculous. Not as ridiculous as the idea one person is about to respond with (again) that the iPad should become a dual-boot device with both operating systems. That’s just profoundly ridiculous. 

    So as Apple finds more ways to overlap devices and make their interactions more fluid, they’re not going to converge the tablet and notebook. 

    I give you credit:
    You're very good at knocking down those strawmen you set up.
    I don’t think that term means what you think it means, but feel free to elaborate on that. 
    williamlondonwatto_cobra
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