Apple attorneys threaten UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

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  • Reply 21 of 108
    mcdavemcdave Posts: 1,927member
    Beats said:
    mcdave said:
    The may have to leave the UK market to set an example and cool the current wave of attacks. What would be the cost of not leaving?

    I don’t know. Everyone on forums seem to agree that Apple should leave every country that attacks them. Seems like a good plan!
    /s

    The cost of not leaving? Not sure what you mean but leaving means it leaves the market open for knockoffs and patent thieves like Huawei and Samsung to take over the market Apple spend decades and billions of dollars inventing.
    I’m just saying that Apple seems to be under more government scrutiny than ever before and this is probably a good opportunity to make an example of one.

    The cost of not taking action would be to court similar action elsewhere or just crest the impression that governments can inflict business models/commercial terms without consequences.

    Not sure about your last point as Apple’s IP has already been taken on many occasions with little repercussion.
    killroyspock1234watto_cobra
  • Reply 22 of 108
    mcdavemcdave Posts: 1,927member
    seanj said:
    danox said:
    mcdave said:
    The may have to leave the UK market to set an example and cool the current wave of attacks. What would be the cost of not leaving?
    At some point a stand needs to be made, the UK being a small country, is just the place….
    Clearly clueless about finance if you think the U.K. is small, it’s a G7 member.
    So what? The iPhone uptake isn’t that great, there are a lot of choice-monkeys in the UK.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 23 of 108
    mcdavemcdave Posts: 1,927member
    aderutter said:
    Yep, us UK customers will simply pay a higher price for an iPhone. 
    Fewer will, the rest will blame Apple and defect.
  • Reply 24 of 108
    9secondkox29secondkox2 Posts: 2,666member
    Too bad Apple didn’t take this stand when China wanted to spy on its nations Apple customers - complete with keys to iCloud data enters. So if you communicate with someone in China, your data in this interaction is spied on as well. 

    edited July 2021 elijahgmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 25 of 108
    dee_deedee_dee Posts: 111member
    Consumers will pay the toll in raised prices.  Let the UK shoot themselves in the foot.  
    I don’t think everyone here understands the ruling. The UK is setting the patent fees for GLOBAL usage. That’s nuts. 
    NoFliesOnMewatto_cobra
  • Reply 26 of 108
    I thought cellular patents were SEP patents in order to prevent this type of fiasco. Also apple is not making these chips in house. Why are they not suing Qualcomm?
    edited July 2021 spock1234watto_cobra
  • Reply 27 of 108
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 15,310moderator
    seanj said:
    mcdave said:
    The may have to leave the UK market to set an example and cool the current wave of attacks. What would be the cost of not leaving?
    Presumably you think they should leave the Texas market too? Absolutely stupid comment. As if legal courts pay attention to childish threats like this.

    The UK is way too profitable for Apple to even consider doing this.
    There are estimates of iPhone sales in the UK here:

    https://www.finder.com/uk/iphone-sales-statistics

    Total UK population is around 68m and that estimates around 7m sales per year. Active userbase is split 60/40 with Android, with 19m UK iPhone users:

    https://www.emarketer.com/newsroom/index.php/iphones-gaining-market-share-in-us-but-losing-in-uk/

    Total iPhone sales are estimated around 52m units between 2011-2019. At an ASP of $800, that makes $41.6b and a 25% net profit margin is around $10b. Issuing a $7b charge for a couple of patents is insane and would of course lead Apple to consider leaving the UK to avoid paying it. It seems to be applied to every iPhone sold worldwide but that's equivalent to $134 per iPhone they've ever sold in the UK. The judicial system around patents needs to be reformed everywhere, it's crazy that this threat to Apple's business is allowed to happen. Apple doesn't even make the cellular chips.

    https://www.mintz.com/insights-center/viewpoints/2231/2019-03-panoptis-recent-victory-against-huawei-demonstrates-why
    https://wccftech.com/apple-to-pay-506-million-for-infringing-on-panoptis-4g-lte-patents/

    There are amounts listed here:

    "PanOptis argues that it should be awarded $4.22 per iPhone, $3.62 per iPad that infringes its patents, and $2.25 per Apple Watch."

    https://appleworld.today/2021/03/31/patent-trollin-panoptis-wants-even-more-moolah-from-apple/

    If the courts allowed every patent owner to do the same, the costs would eventually amount to far more than the cost of the entire product, which makes no sense.
    aderutterDogpersonmuthuk_vanalingamFileMakerFellerapplguytenthousandthingsspock1234watto_cobra
  • Reply 28 of 108
    sphericspheric Posts: 2,544member
    The total amount spent on iPhones per year is about £6 billion, with actual profits obviously a fraction of that. 

    I assume that iPad w/ cellular also infringes, so that comes on top. 

    It would be cheaper for Apple to drop those products off the UK market entirely for a few years than to pay £5 billion to a patent troll. 

    Especially considering that more than a few UK residents would still import iPhones from elsewhere, despite import duties and post-Brexit customs bullshit. 
    spock1234watto_cobra
  • Reply 29 of 108
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    Marvin said:

    If the courts allowed every patent owner to do the same, the costs would eventually amount to far more than the cost of the entire product, which makes no sense.
    Why not?  IP certainly has value, I don't see why it makes no sense for it to have more value than the assembly cost of the physical product.  For a technology product that's a composite of so many hardware and software elements and operating in an integrated network of assorted standards, the iPhone is very exposed to patents.  They'll just have to raise the price to accommodate the licensing.
    FileMakerFellerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 30 of 108
    wonkothesanewonkothesane Posts: 1,717member
    Doesn‘t this remind me of something?

    😂
    TRAGwatto_cobra
  • Reply 31 of 108
    rcfarcfa Posts: 1,124member
    The problem is, standards bodies should make sure relevant patents are negotiated to be licensed as a bundle under fixed terms (FRAND) and license fees covered by the manufacturer of the components used to implement them BEFORE passing standards.

    it’s untenable that companies, regardless who, implementing an industry standard in a product end up getting extorted from all sides individually for using components implementing an industry standard.

    What’s next, suing individual iPhone users for violating patents by using the phones?
    FileMakerFellerspock1234watto_cobra
  • Reply 32 of 108
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    Apple would not be the first to leave the UK.   Many international financial institutions have already beat them to it and headed across the channel.

    The UK intended itself to become more business friendly by leaving the EU.   But it appears they are becoming less so.
    killroy
  • Reply 33 of 108
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    So, what does "Leaving the UK" mean?
    Does it mean the Limey's won't be able to buy an iPhone?
    or
    Does it mean that they'll have to go to Paris to buy one?

    I'm sure that'll go over well!

    Boris is not stupid.  He's desperate to make his Brexit thing work.   He'll look pretty stupid being photographed in a Paris Apple Store buying his iPhone 13.
    spock1234
  • Reply 34 of 108
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    They will be leaving the State of Texas, next.

    I understand AOC plans to give Texas back to Mexico once she's president anyway -- so no big loss.

    (Yeh, that was a little snarky -- but it was fun!)
    spock1234
  • Reply 35 of 108
    pk22901pk22901 Posts: 153member
    This is just a very public reminder.

    Apple's attorney was reminding the judge that it had recourse:

    Apple could //announce// it was leaving the UK, resetting the game completely.

    edited July 2021 GeorgeBMacspock1234watto_cobra
  • Reply 36 of 108
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member

    killroy said:
    If the UK market becomes too toxic then leaving it may not be a bad thing. Apple is a for profit business and if the market condition isn’t profitable whats the point of been on it? Besides is not like the UK market is as big as the EU market.

    The EU market is also getting toxic.

    Is that why UK based international businesses are migrating to the EU?
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 37 of 108
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    crowley said:
    Consumers will pay the toll in raised prices.  Let the UK shoot themselves in the foot.  
    aderutter said:
    Yep, us UK customers will simply pay a higher price for an iPhone. 
    Did you miss the part where this judgement is for a global patent rate?

    The Limey's will be paying shipping, Fx costs and import duties when they buy their iPhones from the EU.
  • Reply 38 of 108
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    Too bad Apple didn’t take this stand when China wanted to spy on its nations Apple customers - complete with keys to iCloud data enters. So if you communicate with someone in China, your data in this interaction is spied on as well. 


    LOL.... Where did you pull China from this story?
    It shows how propaganda can rot a person's brain with fear, hate and obsessions.
    mcdave
  • Reply 39 of 108
    lkrupplkrupp Posts: 10,557member
    mcdave said:
    aderutter said:
    Yep, us UK customers will simply pay a higher price for an iPhone. 
    Fewer will, the rest will blame Apple and defect.
    Give us an example of where that happened when Apple raised it prices. Current surveys seem to indicate people are defecting TO Apple instead of away from it, even with higher prices.
    edited July 2021 killroybshankspock1234watto_cobra
  • Reply 40 of 108
    mcdave said:
    aderutter said:
    Yep, us UK customers will simply pay a higher price for an iPhone. 
    Fewer will, the rest will blame Apple and defect.
    Defect from the UK? Sounds like a plan!!
    GeorgeBMackillroymcdave
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