Internal Apple memo addresses public concern over new child protection features

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 60
    baconstangbaconstang Posts: 1,144member
    One other problem I have is that anyone that has access to my iPhone can snap pictures of whatever without unlocking it.  I use iCloud so as not to fill up my phone with images, so those pictures taken will then be uploaded to the cloud.
    Why won't Apple offer an option  to disable the camera when locked?
    tylersdaddarkvader
  • Reply 42 of 60
    lkrupp said:
    tylersdad said:
    This is monumentally bad for privacy. It's making me reconsider my investments in Apple products. My entire family belongs to the Apple ecosystem. We all have some version of the iPhone 12, iPads and Apple Watches. It starts with examining personal pictures ostensibly to prevent child exploitation, but where does it lead? Where does it end? 


    If it makes the perverts switch to Android, so be it and good riddance. And I doubt you will leave the platform when you realize you’re still better off with iOS than Android. Google will be doing exactly the same thing shortly as it usually follows Apple in these matters. Who will you go to? Your statement is just a fart in a wind storm. Good luck with it making any difference.
    No problem with the kidding porn creeps joining Android. They'd be joining the abundance of low IQ folks over there (relax Android users, I'm joking).

    The issue is one worth discussing however. Apple is indisputably far more of a private medium than the competition. So when Apple, a company that bills itself as and actually is one that emphasizes data privacy,  is believed to now start scanning your photos (rightly or wrongly) it raises an alarm about 'where does this lead to'. Be certain of this, government will expand what protecting children requires. Anytime powerful have a general term they can use to gain more power, they will use it.  There are local governments tight now who would probably like smartphone to help track kids if they are buying or drinking too much soda. Seems absurd but I'd bet it's true. 

    If this happened on the other platform, no one should really blink. That'd be business as usual with a new wrinkle in the LE direction. But this is Apple. I am one who uses Apple so that everywhere I go and everyone I know and everything I search and everything I buy and common words I type aren't instantly gathered into a big file to commoditize me. It's a matter of privacy and everyone IMHO should consider privacy important. So the Apple discussion is appropriate about privacy and Apple's new software that gives a potential for a slippery slope. 


    elijahg
  • Reply 43 of 60
    jdwjdw Posts: 1,411member
    tylersdad said:
    Yes, nobody is forcing people to use iCloud, but this means I have to choose between having my privacy violated or not use the features of iCloud that I'm paying for. 
    Exactly.

    I read all the posts in all 3 pages of this thread, and I wish to thank @tylersdad for being so informative on this topic.  

    All said, regardless of what MS or Google do or have done (which is largely irrelevant, as we are exclusively focused on Apple products here), and regardless of the supposed "1 in a trillion" misidentification figure, the concern expressed over this new tech is legitimate.  That remains true in spite of all the status quo defenses which claim we somehow don't have privacy today anyway.  In my eye, this is just a part of a growing problem that will only get worse in the future, all being done "for the greater good."
    tylersdadbaconstang
  • Reply 44 of 60
    looplessloopless Posts: 341member
    The concerns are completely valid and this has to be one of the most insane things Apple has ever proposed.

    Apparently someone has decided that "child porn" is one of the most urgent issues facing society therefore extraordinary measures must be taken to identify anyone who possesses these images. What's next, imagine an image that makesfun of the president. If we get some fascist in power ( we were close), they could silently add the hash of that image to the database of hashes and suddenly they can instantly identify everyone with that image on their iPhone and send the secret police to their door?

    Using the guise of child-porn as a trojan horse ( anyone who objects is tarred and feathered as being in favor of child-abuse) we are having our privacy invaded in the most evil way. 
    tylersdadbaconstangdarkvader
  • Reply 45 of 60
    lkrupplkrupp Posts: 10,557member
    loopless said:
    The concerns are completely valid and this has to be one of the most insane things Apple has ever proposed.

    Apparently someone has decided that "child porn" is one of the most urgent issues facing society therefore extraordinary measures must be taken to identify anyone who possesses these images. What's next, imagine an image that makesfun of the president. If we get some fascist in power ( we were close), they could silently add the hash of that image to the database of hashes and suddenly they can instantly identify everyone with that image on their iPhone and send the secret police to their door?

    Using the guise of child-porn as a trojan horse ( anyone who objects is tarred and feathered as being in favor of child-abuse) we are having our privacy invaded in the most evil way. 
    So how does it feel to know that there’s nothing you can do about it except bitch? The surveillance future is already here. And Apple has not proposed it. They are implementing it and again, there’s nothing you can do about it. Leave Apple? And go where? Google’s been doing it since 2008, so has Microsoft. Apple will be using the same databases they already do. You’re behind the eight ball. The only way you’ll EVER get away will be to go off the grid, live in an underground bunker in the Montana wilderness
    FileMakerFellerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 46 of 60
    tylersdadtylersdad Posts: 310member
    loopless said:

    ...snip...

    Using the guise of child-porn as a trojan horse ( anyone who objects is tarred and feathered as being in favor of child-abuse) we are having our privacy invaded in the most evil way. 
    Trojan horse is a great description, because that's exactly what this is. It's spyware. Just because it's installed by Apple does not make it any less so. It's spyware. It's checking for unapproved content on the phone that I paid for. Eventually, the list of unapproved content will grow or this will be used by totalitarian governments to punish their citizens. 

    The ethics of this are an absolute mess. 
    baconstangdarkvadermacplusplusjdw
  • Reply 47 of 60
    yojimbo007yojimbo007 Posts: 1,165member
    THEY SHOULD BE CONCERNED !!!!!   ITS AS ORWELLIAN AS IT GETS !!!!
    Besides absolute invasiveness what do they hope to accomplish with this??… it will solve nothing!
    Ones who have these tendencies and know that they are being watched.. they will simply circumvent it by using other platforms and Avoid Apple iCloud or Apple all together.
    Including those who just cant stand the totalitarian approach of big tech and Apple‘s increasingly invasive walled garden ( feels like the a walled China ) 
    This is a horrific pr/pub/buisness move by Apple… it feels Orwellian ! It Is ORWELLIAN !

    Dont do it Tim…. this will alienate everyday normal people who value privacy! 
    IT IS  not to the best interest of the share holders AND SOLVES NOTHING!
    baconstangdarkvader
  • Reply 48 of 60
    chadbagchadbag Posts: 2,023member
    I guess all I can say here is Apple knowing that a file has 0s and 1s in it is not the same as knowing those 0s and 1s are a picture of a palm tree, and then a picture of a dog, and then a living room shoot.

    I expect it is a bit more complicated that that, in order for it to work.   I am not an expert on how this hashing works at the low level -- being a SW engineer for close to 35 years I understand the theory of hashing, but not the low level details -- especially of so-called "fuzzy" hashing.   

    To be useful, this needs to be able to identify photos irrespective of their format, size, etc.  Apple gets a list of hashes for known offensive CSAM images.  A simple hash as has been described here could be foiled by a simple 1-pixel change to the photo, assuming the photo was the exact same format, size, quality, as the original.  If presumed bad guy has a known photo, as a PNG at 600x800 and the NCMEC made the hash on the same photo in JPG at 89% quality at 750x1000, the hashes, if done on the source file bit-stream, won't be anywhere near the same.  But I expect that this system would in fact identify this photo.

    Which means the simple bit stream hash being bandied about here is not correct.  For one, they call it a "fuzzy hash" or something like that, which implies that similar images (or the same image in different sizes, formats, and maybe some obsfucation) would indeed match.

    I expect the photos are actually opened, format read and the photo normalized in some manner, so that the general features of the photo are more or less the same, and then some fancy "fuzzy" hash is made of this image to be compared against a "fuzzy" hash made by NCMEC in a similar manner.

    edited August 2021 gatorguyOctoMonkeybaconstangdarkvaderappleinsiderusermacplusplusmuthuk_vanalingambeowulfschmidt
  • Reply 49 of 60
    flydogflydog Posts: 1,135member
    Rayz2016 said:
    Why are videos playing all over the front page here?


    Because the people who run AI incorrectly believe that we want to see them, and that even if we don’t, that we should be forced to watch them. 
    baconstangdarkvaderwatto_cobra
  • Reply 50 of 60
    jdw said:
    tylersdad said:
    Yes, nobody is forcing people to use iCloud, but this means I have to choose between having my privacy violated or not use the features of iCloud that I'm paying for. 
    Exactly.

    I read all the posts in all 3 pages of this thread, and I wish to thank @tylersdad for being so informative on this topic.  

    All said, regardless of what MS or Google do or have done (which is largely irrelevant, as we are exclusively focused on Apple products here), and regardless of the supposed "1 in a trillion" misidentification figure, the concern expressed over this new tech is legitimate.  That remains true in spite of all the status quo defenses which claim we somehow don't have privacy today anyway.  In my eye, this is just a part of a growing problem that will only get worse in the future, all being done "for the greater good."
    That's fairly well said except for one correction: This isn't a growing problem, this is a problem that already has completely propagated. And in reality we are below the peak of corporate surveillance (government surveillance is a different discussion). It still is running amok but prior to 2018 this crap was running COMPLETELY amok. Most people don't understand that there was virtually no limit. If you carried a smartphone? They were recording as much as they could get away with while Wall Street was raking it in. The natural fallacy was in full force among small websites to start ups to mid caps to large companies (natural fallacy: everyone does it so it must be ok to do). This isn't meaning to pick on Google because they are not, by a million miles, the only one but Google is probably the worst purveyor and they are the mother of surveillance capitalism(see book info below). The metric was clear: the more a company knows about each individual person the more revenue it generated. Many tech companies would follow, then banks, markets, credit cards, shops, dealers etc etc.
    This isn't to smear advertising. There's nothing wrong with advertising but this had gone beyond advertising. This was now a card game where companies would place bets that couldn't lose because thee knew what cards you held. They hadn't implanted a chip in you, we were all voluntarily carrying the chip around in our pockets.

    In part thanks to certain government actions(well intended, some accidentally helping), in significant part thanks to certain privacy orgs, (absolutely no thanks to most media even to this day who are knee deep in this business), in part thanks to Linux and Apple and just a handful of platforms and companies, and definitely in no small part thanks to Shoshanna Subhoff (apologies to her if misspelled). She wrote the book The Age Of Surveillance Capitalism. Her book and Facebook's Cambridge Analytica scandal started to bring the curtain up on this dubious practice. 
    Now every one of us can see what data Google, Facebook, Apple etc records on us. Their ToS has been forced into greater specificity. They were forced to add options to block tracking (Google has been very slow/dragging their feet -- follow the money). The rise of VPNs. They now are forced to pay media specialists to come up with soft fluffy words and phrases ("user experience""help improve <fill in the blank>") indicating they know if the naked truth was out what it would mean. Now companies like Apple can actually get some sales traction by making less data privacy recording a reason to buy their product. None of this was happening just several years ago.

    watto_cobra
  • Reply 51 of 60
    bulk001bulk001 Posts: 780member
    lkrupp said:
    tylersdad said:
    This is monumentally bad for privacy. It's making me reconsider my investments in Apple products. My entire family belongs to the Apple ecosystem. We all have some version of the iPhone 12, iPads and Apple Watches. It starts with examining personal pictures ostensibly to prevent child exploitation, but where does it lead? Where does it end? 


    If it makes the perverts switch to Android, so be it and good riddance. And I doubt you will leave the platform when you realize you’re still better off with iOS than Android. Google will be doing exactly the same thing shortly as it usually follows Apple in these matters. Who will you go to? Your statement is just a fart in a wind storm. Good luck with it making any difference.
    Agree with your basic sentiment of supporting Apple in this. But, I think though that Google Drive and FB already do something along these lines and Apple is actually playing catch-up? Could be wrong. If so be sure to write me a rant on how Apple leads on everything! 😂
  • Reply 52 of 60
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,582member
    tylersdad said:
    It starts with examining personal pictures ostensibly to prevent child exploitation, but where does it lead? Where does it end?
    Apple isn't examining personal pictures. No one is examining anything. Your photo has a unique number based on how the pixels are laid out, that number is compared to a database of numbers representing images for an exact match. False positives are one in a trillion. This is overly-simplified, but that's the basic overview. There isn't some algorithm looking for nudity in images.

    Where does it end? It already has ended. The tool exists, it took years to develop, it is rolling out this fall. There is no "next."
    @Wesley Hilliard
     No. And No.

    It is not new to Apple and did not take years to develop. Apple has been fuzzy-scanning your emails and backed up Cloud data for the past several years to identify illegal/harmful content. Yes, they may proactively report it to law enforcement too rather than wait for some authority to ask. That it will now be enabled via your personal phone rather than on-server is the "next". 
    edited August 2021
  • Reply 53 of 60
    lkrupplkrupp Posts: 10,557member
    bulk001 said:
    lkrupp said:
    tylersdad said:
    This is monumentally bad for privacy. It's making me reconsider my investments in Apple products. My entire family belongs to the Apple ecosystem. We all have some version of the iPhone 12, iPads and Apple Watches. It starts with examining personal pictures ostensibly to prevent child exploitation, but where does it lead? Where does it end? 


    If it makes the perverts switch to Android, so be it and good riddance. And I doubt you will leave the platform when you realize you’re still better off with iOS than Android. Google will be doing exactly the same thing shortly as it usually follows Apple in these matters. Who will you go to? Your statement is just a fart in a wind storm. Good luck with it making any difference.
    Agree with your basic sentiment of supporting Apple in this. But, I think though that Google Drive and FB already do something along these lines and Apple is actually playing catch-up? Could be wrong. If so be sure to write me a rant on how Apple leads on everything! 😂
    No rant, I was wrong. Google and Facebook are already doing this. The rant is how the tech media presents this as solely Apple’s idea.
    baconstangwatto_cobrajony0
  • Reply 54 of 60
    bulk001 said:
    lkrupp said:
    tylersdad said:
    This is monumentally bad for privacy. It's making me reconsider my investments in Apple products. My entire family belongs to the Apple ecosystem. We all have some version of the iPhone 12, iPads and Apple Watches. It starts with examining personal pictures ostensibly to prevent child exploitation, but where does it lead? Where does it end? 


    If it makes the perverts switch to Android, so be it and good riddance. And I doubt you will leave the platform when you realize you’re still better off with iOS than Android. Google will be doing exactly the same thing shortly as it usually follows Apple in these matters. Who will you go to? Your statement is just a fart in a wind storm. Good luck with it making any difference.
    Agree with your basic sentiment of supporting Apple in this. But, I think though that Google Drive and FB already do something along these lines and Apple is actually playing catch-up? Could be wrong. If so be sure to write me a rant on how Apple leads on everything! 😂
    Apple shouldn’t be playing catch-up on this spyware. They should stand up for the privacy of their customers. Today it’s child pornography that’s being targeted. Maybe tomorrow it’s anti-vax memes? Regardless, this is a horrible idea that will almost certainly be abused. 
    OctoMonkeymuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 55 of 60
    Another point to consider is the fact that people in favor of this keep saying Apple isn’t looking at your photos. However, Apple says that if an image is flagged it is reviewed for unapproved content prior to informing law enforcement. 

    So at some point, Apple will most certainly be looking at user’s photos. 
    OctoMonkeyjdw
  • Reply 56 of 60
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    tylersdad said:
    bulk001 said:
    lkrupp said:
    tylersdad said:
    This is monumentally bad for privacy. It's making me reconsider my investments in Apple products. My entire family belongs to the Apple ecosystem. We all have some version of the iPhone 12, iPads and Apple Watches. It starts with examining personal pictures ostensibly to prevent child exploitation, but where does it lead? Where does it end? 


    If it makes the perverts switch to Android, so be it and good riddance. And I doubt you will leave the platform when you realize you’re still better off with iOS than Android. Google will be doing exactly the same thing shortly as it usually follows Apple in these matters. Who will you go to? Your statement is just a fart in a wind storm. Good luck with it making any difference.
    Agree with your basic sentiment of supporting Apple in this. But, I think though that Google Drive and FB already do something along these lines and Apple is actually playing catch-up? Could be wrong. If so be sure to write me a rant on how Apple leads on everything! 😂
    Apple shouldn’t be playing catch-up on this spyware. They should stand up for the privacy of their customers. Today it’s child pornography that’s being targeted. Maybe tomorrow it’s anti-vax memes? Regardless, this is a horrible idea that will almost certainly be abused. 
    It won't be anti-vax memes tomorrow, or the next day.  I guarantee it.
  • Reply 57 of 60
    crowley said:
    tylersdad said:
    bulk001 said:
    lkrupp said:
    tylersdad said:
    This is monumentally bad for privacy. It's making me reconsider my investments in Apple products. My entire family belongs to the Apple ecosystem. We all have some version of the iPhone 12, iPads and Apple Watches. It starts with examining personal pictures ostensibly to prevent child exploitation, but where does it lead? Where does it end? 


    If it makes the perverts switch to Android, so be it and good riddance. And I doubt you will leave the platform when you realize you’re still better off with iOS than Android. Google will be doing exactly the same thing shortly as it usually follows Apple in these matters. Who will you go to? Your statement is just a fart in a wind storm. Good luck with it making any difference.
    Agree with your basic sentiment of supporting Apple in this. But, I think though that Google Drive and FB already do something along these lines and Apple is actually playing catch-up? Could be wrong. If so be sure to write me a rant on how Apple leads on everything! ߘ⦬t;br>
    Apple shouldn’t be playing catch-up on this spyware. They should stand up for the privacy of their customers. Today it’s child pornography that’s being targeted. Maybe tomorrow it’s anti-vax memes? Regardless, this is a horrible idea that will almost certainly be abused. 
    It won't be anti-vax memes tomorrow, or the next day.  I guarantee it.
    Perhaps not...  but perhaps it will be photograph (hashes) of unidentified Jan 6th protesters / rioters...  and when the political winds shift perhaps BLM protestors / rioters...  or photographs of wanted fugitives...  or any number of other un-desirables du jour.
    edited August 2021 tylersdad
  • Reply 58 of 60
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    crowley said:
    tylersdad said:
    bulk001 said:
    lkrupp said:
    tylersdad said:
    This is monumentally bad for privacy. It's making me reconsider my investments in Apple products. My entire family belongs to the Apple ecosystem. We all have some version of the iPhone 12, iPads and Apple Watches. It starts with examining personal pictures ostensibly to prevent child exploitation, but where does it lead? Where does it end? 


    If it makes the perverts switch to Android, so be it and good riddance. And I doubt you will leave the platform when you realize you’re still better off with iOS than Android. Google will be doing exactly the same thing shortly as it usually follows Apple in these matters. Who will you go to? Your statement is just a fart in a wind storm. Good luck with it making any difference.
    Agree with your basic sentiment of supporting Apple in this. But, I think though that Google Drive and FB already do something along these lines and Apple is actually playing catch-up? Could be wrong. If so be sure to write me a rant on how Apple leads on everything! 😂
    Apple shouldn’t be playing catch-up on this spyware. They should stand up for the privacy of their customers. Today it’s child pornography that’s being targeted. Maybe tomorrow it’s anti-vax memes? Regardless, this is a horrible idea that will almost certainly be abused. 
    It won't be anti-vax memes tomorrow, or the next day.  I guarantee it.
    Perhaps not...  but perhaps it will be photographs of unidentified Jan 6th protesters / rioters...  and when the political winds shift perhaps BLM protestors / rioters...  or photographs of wanted fugitives...  or any number of other un-desirables du jour.
    But owning photographs of someone who was in the Jan 6th riots or a BLM protest isn't illegal?  Why would Apple extend this functionality to owning photographs of something that it is not illegal to own photographs of?

  • Reply 59 of 60
    tylersdadtylersdad Posts: 310member
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    tylersdad said:
    bulk001 said:
    lkrupp said:
    tylersdad said:
    This is monumentally bad for privacy. It's making me reconsider my investments in Apple products. My entire family belongs to the Apple ecosystem. We all have some version of the iPhone 12, iPads and Apple Watches. It starts with examining personal pictures ostensibly to prevent child exploitation, but where does it lead? Where does it end? 


    If it makes the perverts switch to Android, so be it and good riddance. And I doubt you will leave the platform when you realize you’re still better off with iOS than Android. Google will be doing exactly the same thing shortly as it usually follows Apple in these matters. Who will you go to? Your statement is just a fart in a wind storm. Good luck with it making any difference.
    Agree with your basic sentiment of supporting Apple in this. But, I think though that Google Drive and FB already do something along these lines and Apple is actually playing catch-up? Could be wrong. If so be sure to write me a rant on how Apple leads on everything! 😂
    Apple shouldn’t be playing catch-up on this spyware. They should stand up for the privacy of their customers. Today it’s child pornography that’s being targeted. Maybe tomorrow it’s anti-vax memes? Regardless, this is a horrible idea that will almost certainly be abused. 
    It won't be anti-vax memes tomorrow, or the next day.  I guarantee it.
    Perhaps not...  but perhaps it will be photographs of unidentified Jan 6th protesters / rioters...  and when the political winds shift perhaps BLM protestors / rioters...  or photographs of wanted fugitives...  or any number of other un-desirables du jour.
    But owning photographs of someone who was in the Jan 6th riots or a BLM protest isn't illegal?  Why would Apple extend this functionality to owning photographs of something that it is not illegal to own photographs of?

    It’s not illegal, but it’s a great way to find out who their associates are. They would just have to make sure it doesn’t match the hash of images publicly available. 
  • Reply 60 of 60
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    tylersdad said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    tylersdad said:
    bulk001 said:
    lkrupp said:
    tylersdad said:
    This is monumentally bad for privacy. It's making me reconsider my investments in Apple products. My entire family belongs to the Apple ecosystem. We all have some version of the iPhone 12, iPads and Apple Watches. It starts with examining personal pictures ostensibly to prevent child exploitation, but where does it lead? Where does it end? 


    If it makes the perverts switch to Android, so be it and good riddance. And I doubt you will leave the platform when you realize you’re still better off with iOS than Android. Google will be doing exactly the same thing shortly as it usually follows Apple in these matters. Who will you go to? Your statement is just a fart in a wind storm. Good luck with it making any difference.
    Agree with your basic sentiment of supporting Apple in this. But, I think though that Google Drive and FB already do something along these lines and Apple is actually playing catch-up? Could be wrong. If so be sure to write me a rant on how Apple leads on everything! 😂
    Apple shouldn’t be playing catch-up on this spyware. They should stand up for the privacy of their customers. Today it’s child pornography that’s being targeted. Maybe tomorrow it’s anti-vax memes? Regardless, this is a horrible idea that will almost certainly be abused. 
    It won't be anti-vax memes tomorrow, or the next day.  I guarantee it.
    Perhaps not...  but perhaps it will be photographs of unidentified Jan 6th protesters / rioters...  and when the political winds shift perhaps BLM protestors / rioters...  or photographs of wanted fugitives...  or any number of other un-desirables du jour.
    But owning photographs of someone who was in the Jan 6th riots or a BLM protest isn't illegal?  Why would Apple extend this functionality to owning photographs of something that it is not illegal to own photographs of?

    It’s not illegal, but it’s a great way to find out who their associates are. They would just have to make sure it doesn’t match the hash of images publicly available. 
    It's a pretty unnecessary and ineffective way to find out who their associates are since it only checks the hash on upload.  If the authorities know who the people are enough to have private photos of them then they're more than capable of checking their social media and other communications.

    This is a dead end hypothetical.
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