Users lobby 1Password to abandon new Electron version

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Comments

  • Reply 61 of 84
    dewmedewme Posts: 3,897member
    This might be a good time for AppleInsider to publish a how-to article that shows how to use Keychain on all Apple platforms where it is supported. I must admit that I have no idea how to install something like credit card numbers and verification codes or software license keys into Keychain from an iPhone or iPad - because I've never needed to do it and 1Password 6.x.x has served me well enough.
    ramanpfaffmSak
  • Reply 62 of 84
    MplsPMplsP Posts: 3,359member
    chadbag said:
    Honest question:   What does something like 1password offer me above what I get for free with the keychain IF I don’t care about cross platform (meaning outside of Apple) use?  I don’t care about android or windows. 

    I’m happily just using KeyChain which covers me on macOS, iOS, iPad, etc. 
    This. 
    Is there any real advantage in using a dedicated password manager over the one that’s built-in?
    There have been 3 or 4 posts answering this question. Maybe try reading them first.
    dewme said:
    This might be a good time for AppleInsider to publish a how-to article that shows how to use Keychain on all Apple platforms where it is supported. I must admit that I have no idea how to install something like credit card numbers and verification codes or software license keys into Keychain from an iPhone or iPad - because I've never needed to do it and 1Password 6.x.x has served me well enough.
    The problem is keychain is a poorly designed, underdeveloped solution. For entering passwords in Safari it generally works fine, but that’s about it. Aside from the fact that Apple decided to eliminate cloud syncing for a few years, leaving users stranded for a few years until they brought it back, keychain
    - has a horrible interface that hasn’t changed or improved since they first wrote it
    - is a pain to use on iOS for anything but web passwords
    - doesn’t work outside of Safari
    - doesn’t reliably fill many forms that other password apps do
    - is incredibly limited in what it can store - doesn’t store photos. Can’t be used for notes. Doesn’t allow other fields to be added
    - isn’t cross platform (not an issue for a lot of people here, but is a big issue for some.)
    - doesn’t allow for easy export or backup
    - is cluttered with system level keys and other information you generally don’t want to see

    I could go on, but I think that’s enough. 

    crowleydewmeramanpfaff
  • Reply 63 of 84
    auxioauxio Posts: 2,364member
    MplsP said:
    dewme said:
    This might be a good time for AppleInsider to publish a how-to article that shows how to use Keychain on all Apple platforms where it is supported. I must admit that I have no idea how to install something like credit card numbers and verification codes or software license keys into Keychain from an iPhone or iPad - because I've never needed to do it and 1Password 6.x.x has served me well enough.
    The problem is keychain is a poorly designed, underdeveloped solution. For entering passwords in Safari it generally works fine, but that’s about it. Aside from the fact that Apple decided to eliminate cloud syncing for a few years, leaving users stranded for a few years until they brought it back, keychain
    - has a horrible interface that hasn’t changed or improved since they first wrote it
    Most people will never need to look at the actual Keychain database.  For pure passwords, Safari provides a decent interface for it.
    - is a pain to use on iOS for anything but web passwords
    - doesn’t work outside of Safari
    False.  It works in plenty of other apps, assuming that they authenticate using WebKit (as they should since I don't trust custom-designed authentication schemes) or TouchID/FaceID.
    - doesn’t reliably fill many forms that other password apps do
    Agree here.  It regularly gets credit card fields mixed up (expiry dates and whatnot)
    - is incredibly limited in what it can store - doesn’t store photos. Can’t be used for notes. Doesn’t allow other fields to be added
    And my refrigerator can't store my ladder either, that doesn't make it useless for the task it was designed for.  Most people looking for a password manager aren't looking to store photos in it.  If you need a general purpose secure database, there are far better options.
    - isn’t cross platform (not an issue for a lot of people here, but is a big issue for some.)
    Already discussed
    - doesn’t allow for easy export or backup
    Which is probably a good thing for most people.  If not done properly (or stored improperly), it can cause your entire password database to be exposed.

    For advanced users, it is possible to export parts of the database, just not the whole thing.
    - is cluttered with system level keys and other information you generally don’t want to see
    Again, most people aren't going to be looking at the raw database, which is why Apple hasn't made it user-friendly.  It's only advanced users who are digging through all the details.

  • Reply 64 of 84
    crowleycrowley Posts: 8,906member
    auxio said:
    MplsP said:
    dewme said:
    This might be a good time for AppleInsider to publish a how-to article that shows how to use Keychain on all Apple platforms where it is supported. I must admit that I have no idea how to install something like credit card numbers and verification codes or software license keys into Keychain from an iPhone or iPad - because I've never needed to do it and 1Password 6.x.x has served me well enough.
    The problem is keychain is a poorly designed, underdeveloped solution. For entering passwords in Safari it generally works fine, but that’s about it. Aside from the fact that Apple decided to eliminate cloud syncing for a few years, leaving users stranded for a few years until they brought it back, keychain
    - has a horrible interface that hasn’t changed or improved since they first wrote it
    Most people will never need to look at the actual Keychain database.  For pure passwords, Safari provides a decent interface for it.
    - is a pain to use on iOS for anything but web passwords
    - doesn’t work outside of Safari
    False.  It works in plenty of other apps, assuming that they authenticate using WebKit (as they should since I don't trust custom-designed authentication schemes) or TouchID/FaceID.
    - doesn’t reliably fill many forms that other password apps do
    Agree here.  It regularly gets credit card fields mixed up (expiry dates and whatnot)
    - is incredibly limited in what it can store - doesn’t store photos. Can’t be used for notes. Doesn’t allow other fields to be added
    And my refrigerator can't store my ladder either, that doesn't make it useless for the task it was designed for.  Most people looking for a password manager aren't looking to store photos in it.  If you need a general purpose secure database, there are far better options.
    - isn’t cross platform (not an issue for a lot of people here, but is a big issue for some.)
    Already discussed
    - doesn’t allow for easy export or backup
    Which is probably a good thing for most people.  If not done properly (or stored improperly), it can cause your entire password database to be exposed.

    For advanced users, it is possible to export parts of the database, just not the whole thing.
    - is cluttered with system level keys and other information you generally don’t want to see
    Again, most people aren't going to be looking at the raw database, which is why Apple hasn't made it user-friendly.  It's only advanced users who are digging through all the details.
    Pretty solid set of advantages to a password manager like 1Password though?  Even if it does come in a crappy Electron shell. 
    dewmeramanpfaff
  • Reply 65 of 84
    barthrh said:
    Based on my experience with apps using it, Electron is terrible. Flash terrible? Not quite, but working hard towards it. Microsoft is abandoning it for Teams, with the new 2.0 release expected to use 50% of the resources. 1P's native approach to Mac was a huge selling point. If that's gone, then I'll definitely take a look at alternatives.
    I don't use any 3rd party password management, being quite happy with iCloud Keychain. But if what I had to experience using Microsoft Teams on my Mac was due to this Electron platform, than I'd have to agree that it is a shitty foundation to build any software upon. I had thought that the awful experience was just par with Microsoft software—the reason I've abandoned it for more than a decade now.
  • Reply 66 of 84
    crowleycrowley Posts: 8,906member
    barthrh said:
    Based on my experience with apps using it, Electron is terrible. Flash terrible? Not quite, but working hard towards it. Microsoft is abandoning it for Teams, with the new 2.0 release expected to use 50% of the resources. 1P's native approach to Mac was a huge selling point. If that's gone, then I'll definitely take a look at alternatives.
    I don't use any 3rd party password management, being quite happy with iCloud Keychain. But if what I had to experience using Microsoft Teams on my Mac was due to this Electron platform, than I'd have to agree that it is a shitty foundation to build any software upon. I had thought that the awful experience was just par with Microsoft software—the reason I've abandoned it for more than a decade now.
    I have to use MS Teams for work in Windows, and it's terrible.  Electron on the Mac doesn't help, but it isn't the root of its problems.
  • Reply 67 of 84
    coolfactorcoolfactor Posts: 1,836member
    I'm a daily Slack user and I'm very impressed by how well the app performs. Am I generally against the idea of companies trying to have "a single codebase" across platforms? Yes! But I think that Slack has done really well, and since Electron is basically JavaScript, it will get better over time.

    I say keep the pressure on, because truly "native" is always the best option, but let's also pressure the Electron team to dramatically improve performance.

    ramanpfaff
  • Reply 68 of 84
    coolfactorcoolfactor Posts: 1,836member
    chadbag said:
    Honest question:   What does something like 1password offer me above what I get for free with the keychain IF I don’t care about cross platform (meaning outside of Apple) use?  I don’t care about android or windows. 

    I’m happily just using KeyChain which covers me on macOS, iOS, iPad, etc. 

    Nope, you're absolutely right. Too many people overlook the simplest option in favour of these "alternatives". But there's also the anti-Safari group, which believe that either Chrome is the best browser or Firefox is the best browser. Best for them, maybe, but quite often that decision is based on a lack of full knowledge. Many Chrome users, for example, think Chrome is the best because it's built by Google. Yah, go figure. :smile: 

    Keychain is a hidden gem on the Mac. When using the Keychain Access app, you can do a lot moree than just sync passwords across devices. It's a secure, encrypted database for a lot of data beyond passwords. Apple should build a more consumer-friendly version because the current version feels more like a SysAdmin app.
  • Reply 69 of 84
    neilmneilm Posts: 915member
    Count me in as another happy Keychain user on Mac, iPad and iPhone. Unless you need to cover a non-Apple device, 1P is just an additional, unnecessary layer.
  • Reply 70 of 84
    TSSTSS Posts: 3member
    Very disappointed that AgileBits has decided to adopted Electron for 1P8.. I’ll likely switch to an alternative app or back to using Keychain. 

  • Reply 71 of 84
    focherfocher Posts: 685member
    If you just use Apple devices and only need what keychain has to offer, then that’s all fine. But password managers do things like provide 2FA support, store a lot more data types, and provide tge ability to share with others. 

    When we need our insurance IDs and digital copies of the cards, I’ve got it. Social Security info for the whole family is always with me. Passports, drivers licenses, my car VINS and license plates, reward programs, and banking info. Always with me. 

    And best feature. When my wife inevitably asks me for those types of things, I waive her off with the phrase “1Password”. 
    NaiyasMplsPramanpfaff
  • Reply 72 of 84
    FezzerFezzer Posts: 2unconfirmed, member
    focher said:
    If you just use Apple devices and only need what keychain has to offer, then that’s all fine. But password managers do things like provide 2FA support, store a lot more data types, and provide tge ability to share with others. 

    When we need our insurance IDs and digital copies of the cards, I’ve got it. Social Security info for the whole family is always with me. Passports, drivers licenses, my car VINS and license plates, reward programs, and banking info. Always with me. 

    And best feature. When my wife inevitably asks me for those types of things, I waive her off with the phrase “1Password”. 
    The upcoming release of iOS and macOS has keychain support for 2FA. Just want to mention that because I see people saying you’d lose that functionality by going to keychain.  It’ll have it very soon.
  • Reply 73 of 84
    NaiyasNaiyas Posts: 75member
    focher said:
    If you just use Apple devices and only need what keychain has to offer, then that’s all fine. But password managers do things like provide 2FA support, store a lot more data types, and provide tge ability to share with others. 

    When we need our insurance IDs and digital copies of the cards, I’ve got it. Social Security info for the whole family is always with me. Passports, drivers licenses, my car VINS and license plates, reward programs, and banking info. Always with me. 

    And best feature. When my wife inevitably asks me for those types of things, I waive her off with the phrase “1Password”. 
    This is exactly why I have also used 1Password for the last decade.

    I've not tried the beta of 1P8 but I have noticed that the more recent version releases of 1P7 have been problematic. The Safari extension just doesn't work reliably any more and when I do have to use Windows updates there are also "buggy". The last 5/6 months of noticing this has given me cause to consider other offerings. I've also considered developing my own solution to the issue, but with over 700 items to migrate any change will be a bit of a monster task.

    I'll see how 1P8 goes when its released, particularly on my M1 Mac(s), before I decide which way I'll end up going.
  • Reply 74 of 84
    dewmedewme Posts: 3,897member
    Fezzer said:
    focher said:
    If you just use Apple devices and only need what keychain has to offer, then that’s all fine. But password managers do things like provide 2FA support, store a lot more data types, and provide tge ability to share with others. 

    When we need our insurance IDs and digital copies of the cards, I’ve got it. Social Security info for the whole family is always with me. Passports, drivers licenses, my car VINS and license plates, reward programs, and banking info. Always with me. 

    And best feature. When my wife inevitably asks me for those types of things, I waive her off with the phrase “1Password”. 
    The upcoming release of iOS and macOS has keychain support for 2FA. Just want to mention that because I see people saying you’d lose that functionality by going to keychain.  It’ll have it very soon.

    The question that needs to be answered for me is whether Apple going to backport 2FA Keychain support to Big Sur, Catalina, and Mojave. If they don't, the price tag for getting the same quality of Keychain service across all of my Macs goes way up.
  • Reply 75 of 84
    MplsPMplsP Posts: 3,359member
    auxio said:
    MplsP said:
    dewme said:
    This might be a good time for AppleInsider to publish a how-to article that shows how to use Keychain on all Apple platforms where it is supported. I must admit that I have no idea how to install something like credit card numbers and verification codes or software license keys into Keychain from an iPhone or iPad - because I've never needed to do it and 1Password 6.x.x has served me well enough.
    The problem is keychain is a poorly designed, underdeveloped solution. For entering passwords in Safari it generally works fine, but that’s about it. Aside from the fact that Apple decided to eliminate cloud syncing for a few years, leaving users stranded for a few years until they brought it back, keychain
    - has a horrible interface that hasn’t changed or improved since they first wrote it
    Most people will never need to look at the actual Keychain database.  For pure passwords, Safari provides a decent interface for it.
    - is a pain to use on iOS for anything but web passwords
    - doesn’t work outside of Safari
    False.  It works in plenty of other apps, assuming that they authenticate using WebKit (as they should since I don't trust custom-designed authentication schemes) or TouchID/FaceID.
    - doesn’t reliably fill many forms that other password apps do
    Agree here.  It regularly gets credit card fields mixed up (expiry dates and whatnot)
    - is incredibly limited in what it can store - doesn’t store photos. Can’t be used for notes. Doesn’t allow other fields to be added
    And my refrigerator can't store my ladder either, that doesn't make it useless for the task it was designed for.  Most people looking for a password manager aren't looking to store photos in it.  If you need a general purpose secure database, there are far better options.
    - isn’t cross platform (not an issue for a lot of people here, but is a big issue for some.)
    Already discussed
    - doesn’t allow for easy export or backup
    Which is probably a good thing for most people.  If not done properly (or stored improperly), it can cause your entire password database to be exposed.

    For advanced users, it is possible to export parts of the database, just not the whole thing.
    - is cluttered with system level keys and other information you generally don’t want to see
    Again, most people aren't going to be looking at the raw database, which is why Apple hasn't made it user-friendly.  It's only advanced users who are digging through all the details.

    Again, as others have said, if all you ever do is enter passwords in Safari then Keychain works fine. Your comment about your refrigerator is completely asinine - people were asking what advantage other password apps had over keychain and when faced with those advantages you essentially say "well, keychain can do what it does." Well duh. The point isn't what it can do; it's how it does it and what it can't do.

    As far as other apps, Keychain hasn't worked in any other browsers I've used. Nor has it worked without opening up the keychain database app in any other MacOS app I've used.
    ramanpfaff
  • Reply 76 of 84
    gbdocgbdoc Posts: 80member
    In Fey’s own words, 1P8 is a compromise, not “the best of both worlds”. I’ve been happily using 1PW for years. I’m waiting to see how 1P8 performs, but if it’s not up to snuff I’m sure I can find an adequate replacement.
  • Reply 77 of 84
    fastasleepfastasleep Posts: 5,827member
    dewme said:
    Fezzer said:
    focher said:
    If you just use Apple devices and only need what keychain has to offer, then that’s all fine. But password managers do things like provide 2FA support, store a lot more data types, and provide tge ability to share with others. 

    When we need our insurance IDs and digital copies of the cards, I’ve got it. Social Security info for the whole family is always with me. Passports, drivers licenses, my car VINS and license plates, reward programs, and banking info. Always with me. 

    And best feature. When my wife inevitably asks me for those types of things, I waive her off with the phrase “1Password”. 
    The upcoming release of iOS and macOS has keychain support for 2FA. Just want to mention that because I see people saying you’d lose that functionality by going to keychain.  It’ll have it very soon.

    The question that needs to be answered for me is whether Apple going to backport 2FA Keychain support to Big Sur, Catalina, and Mojave. If they don't, the price tag for getting the same quality of Keychain service across all of my Macs goes way up.
    Why would they? Have they ever brought new features to the older versions of macOS? 
  • Reply 78 of 84
    dewmedewme Posts: 3,897member
    I'm a daily Slack user and I'm very impressed by how well the app performs. Am I generally against the idea of companies trying to have "a single codebase" across platforms? Yes! But I think that Slack has done really well, and since Electron is basically JavaScript, it will get better over time.

    I say keep the pressure on, because truly "native" is always the best option, but let's also pressure the Electron team to dramatically improve performance.


    I hear you, but the small and vocal minority of people who are complaining about Electron, many of whom are probably techies, don't really care what you think. The more than 10 million daily users of Slack and the organizations they help support are obviously getting real business value and improved productivity within their organizations from using the tool. They certainly aren't sending off impassioned pleas to the developers of Slack to try to steer them towards using a different technology under the hood any more than I'd "demand" that Chips Ahoy change the formulation of its cookie recipe. If they change the recipe and I think the newly released cookies suck, I just won't buy them. 

    I totally get why some people are passionate about certain things they either love or hate. I personally never liked Java or even having a JVM installed on my machine. But I love the XMind application and I'll live with the required JVM because the application delivers real value to me. I also understand why developers choose Electron/Node.js, or JavaFX, or Xamarin, or Qt, or Unity. They are trying to solve a business problem, plain and simple. Anything that provides a means to that end is on the table for consideration. They weigh the pros and cons, like vocal techies questioning their choice, and take their best shot.

    Delivering business value usually trumps most technical trade-offs, even when you know going in that a mid course correction may be required in a few years or releases to offset the compromises you make today. You have to survive and keep the revenue flowing to still be around to worry about three future releases down the road. As someone who's been involved in a number of architectural designs, you always have to put up with architectural compromises that you absolutely know are sub-optimal and will absolutely come back to haunt you. To stay in the game and not quit you just have to be very focused on picking the right battles and finding ways to slowly steer the big ship in the direction it needs to go even when ot takes years to complete the turn.

    As someone who has been in a position that involves difficult compromises, I really can't say for certain how I would react to someone from the outside offering their unsolicited opinion about an internal decision that my team has had to settle on. There is a part of me that would like to tell them to f*** off because they aren't the ones whose jobs are on the line. They may just have a hair up their butt about a particular technology. They don't want their terabyte of RAM allocated beyond 0.5%.  The truth is that if you follow their "free advice ... cha-ching" and it all blows up in your face, they aren't going to have your back or replace your personal or corporate losses. On the other hand, certain folks, especially those of us in the tech world or in product development have very strong opinions about a lot of things that we find ourselves powerless to keep to ourselves. I get it.

    edited August 17 muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 79 of 84
    mwhitemwhite Posts: 272member
    If I was to go from 1Password to another password manager how do I take all my saved passwords to a new manager? Thanks for any help.
  • Reply 80 of 84
    dewmedewme Posts: 3,897member
    mwhite said:
    If I was to go from 1Password to another password manager how do I take all my saved passwords to a new manager? Thanks for any help.
    https://support.1password.com/export/
    mwhiteMplsP
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