If a developer gets to avoid an Apple commission based on a successful customer facing outreach, how is that fair to Apple snd the massive financial investment in maintaining a great App Store?
ridiculous.
It’s seems like the legit hard working people get shafted all the time and lazy freeloaders get everything handed to them these days.
Apple itself, within its own financial statements, indicates that the margins on the App Store are wild—70% or more. Their "investment" is minimal.
Also, calling the App Store "great" is hilarious in tis own right. Increasingly full of advertising and paid marketing puffery (you didn't think that editorial content you see about particular apps or groups of apps was free or generated by Apple out of the goodness of its heart, did you?), poor ability to surface apps from small developers, tens of thousands if not millions of copycat apps freely stealing the intellectual property of other apps, and minimal protection against bad-actor actions due to a fundamentally broken and overwhelmed review process.
The App Store is a bare-minimum effort that makes Apple a shitton of money. That's their only motivation in defending it so aggressively, and creating this non-settlement to try and save the golden goose. Apple does a lot of things incredibly well and produces best-in-class products. The App Store is not one of them.
If a developer emails me about a different payment process I’ll tell them to GTH and trash their app.
Developer: "You can save 30% by purchasing using any major credit card." Rob53: "Go to hell, I'll pay full price!!!!!"
Seems completely logical.
Why do you think App developer or company willing to give you 30% discount automatically when they are not pay 30% per transaction to Apple? Each App developer who does not have web payment system now they need to get one. Which it will cost them. Set up the web site and store customer's credit card info and verified and secure it also need spend money..
Epic was already done this prior they start iOS app. So they can give you some discount. I remembered it was 20% off. Even Epic could not give you 30% off.. lol.. So developer or company does not set this up yet then I wonder how much money they will save it? Also these days weak security on payment system will be hacked.. How much it will cost to clean that up..
Why would I hire people to handle payment system rather pay 30% to Apple when ever App has transaction. I think this is way cheaper.
If a developer emails me about a different payment process I’ll tell them to GTH and trash their app.
Developer: "You can save 305% by purchasing using any major credit card." Rob53: "Go to hell, I'll pay full price!!!!!"
Seems completely logical.
There, fixed that for you. Developers are not going to just give money away. This argument by developers like Epic was only made to try to garner support from end users. They were never intending to give back the full 30% to end user out of the goodness of their hearts.
"App makers in the U.S. can now reach out -- with consent -- to customers via email or other means to discuss alternative payment methods, which if adopted by users would effectively avoid App Store commissions."
This angers me. I don't want to use "alternative" payment methods. I am using App Store to buy software hses because it helps me organize all my purchases with a single payment method.
Remember Adobe? It literally messed up when the subscription account got hacked and my personal data is now forever exposed in my "dark web" reporting even to this day.
Companies need to agree on the standard on subscriptions/purchases and let Apple take care of all personal data. I don't want spam. I don't want junk. I don't want any other companies to have access to my personal data. All they need to do is get a token from Apple and if any of them are hacked, tokens are revoked and the problem solved. No personal data gets shared.
I am so glad Apple is introducing an anonymous email address feature for new registrations in MacOS Monterory because I am definitely going to use that.
Maybe Apple should open a physical store and only sell software there. Then they'd be on the same level as Walmart, Target, Best Buy, et al, and not attract this kind of lawsuit...
What a stupid decision. Apple should not allow small guys to twist their arms.
i would jack up the developer anual price to $299 to make up for all the BS. Heck Apple should charge $999/year. Nothing is free.
When Apple started off the App Store they had a fund for developers, it's a good idea.
At $999 a year bedroom development is dead, and that's how quite a lot of apps started. WhatsApp for instance. They will go to the Android platform. Good work there.
"App makers in the U.S. can now reach out -- with consent -- to customers via email or other means to discuss alternative payment methods, which if adopted by users would effectively avoid App Store commissions."
This angers me. I don't want to use "alternative" payment methods. I am using App Store to buy software hses because it helps me organize all my purchases with a single payment method.
Remember Adobe? It literally messed up when the subscription account got hacked and my personal data is now forever exposed in my "dark web" reporting even to this day.
Companies need to agree on the standard on subscriptions/purchases and let Apple take care of all personal data. I don't want spam. I don't want junk. I don't want any other companies to have access to my personal data. All they need to do is get a token from Apple and if any of them are hacked, tokens are revoked and the problem solved. No personal data gets shared.
I am so glad Apple is introducing an anonymous email address feature for new registrations in MacOS Monterory because I am definitely going to use that.
Well then , you can ignore the email. For most developers the 15% isn't a big deal, for some though the 15% or 30% s their profit. By and large these companies don't allow you to sign up within the app anyway.
If a developer emails me about a different payment process I’ll tell them to GTH and trash their app.
Developer: "You can save 30% by purchasing using any major credit card." Rob53: "Go to hell, I'll pay full price!!!!!"
Seems completely logical.
It is logical. Pay $0.99 to $4.99 for an App and keep my credit card number secure or save a few pennies by handing over my credit card to dozens of independent companies.
We’re not talking about big-ticket items here. Most Apps are under $5. The average iOS user spends about $100 a year on Apps (varies by country). It’s not worth the risk of saving $20 a year by handing out my credit card number to numerous companies.
It certainly makes sense for Apple to be involved in whatever reshaping of the App Store is needed to quell the concerns of most developers. The last thing we'd want is a court assigned bureaucrat, or worse yet a political appointee, being injected into the process. My gut feeling is that no matter what Apple does there will be some people who will never be happy, so we'll see how it plays out and listen for the whiners to start squealing.
I must admit, as someone who's come from the Microsoft side of software product development, and having worked for dominant technology suppliers who relied on both internal and partner distribution and system integration networks, I'm totally blown away by the push-back and verbose negativity coming from Apple's third party development community. Everything Apple has done and is still doing is so inclusive, easily attainable, and has almost no barriers to entry for anyone who wants to jump in and try their hand at creating software products for Apple's platforms.
The $99 per year Apple developer program cost is so infinitesimally tiny compared to the costs associated with developing for Microsoft's platforms. We were paying between $1500 - $2500 each for MSDN subscriptions until Microsoft came out with metered volume subscriptions that brought the annual cost down to around $900 per seat - times hundreds of seats. Attending a Microsoft PDC/Build conference was easily a $3000 per person affair with all of the travel expenses factored in. Oh, and on top of that if you want to have a dedicated developer support contact at Microsoft (I think it was called tier 2 technical support), which any company which needs responsive action on time critical issues needs, and that had a big price tag on it too.
Yeah, I was at some of those Microsoft developer conferences that people who probably weren't there like to rag on. I always enjoyed the keynotes and most of them had at least one professionally produced humorous film or advertising knock-off that was awesome. I can tell you that Microsoft knew exactly how to make developers feel like kings. The entertainment events, receptions, focus groups, food, mountains of snacks, and piles of swag were quite staggering - and that was even before they started giving away real big ticket stuff like PDAs, tablets, and computers. Microsoft also made sure all of the most respected experts in a given technology, language, etc., were plugged into their developer network, and in many cases hired them and brought them into Microsoft, which could be a little deflating if the person you've been following suddenly disappeared into the borg. My favorites were industry focused groups and verticals, like the Patterns & Practices group, that provided guidance and preconference seminars on how to apply the technology in real world use, not just fluffy hello world demos.
Comparing Microsoft to Apple in terms of developer engagement is truly an apples to oranges comparison in my opinion. Apple is very easy, lightweight, and very low cost for anyone to dip their toe into the water. Apple seems to be more grass roots and community driven with Apple providing a lot of hand holding to get your app out there in the App Store. Perhaps because of that ease of entry, the number of apps in the App Store is staggeringly high and a lot of them are pretty lightweight and only do one or two things. Some of them are shit. But as a developer, if you put of something that's not so great or even if it's shit, your investment isn't going to set you back financially. Bruised ego perhaps, but the kids are still getting fed. With Microsoft, you can spend an enormous amount of time and money and if you miss the mark, you're going to feel the burn.
Microsoft actually does support a low upfront cost track through their Community programs, but they place serious constraints on the distribution of apps coming out of this track. Perhaps Apple would be better served by having a more starkly defined tiered system, one for pro apps and one for dabblers/hobbyists/limited function apps. They kind-of do from a sales and percentage standpoint, but also extend the tiered model so the tools, support expectations, and licensing for pro developers is better suited for developers who want to be free of the one-size-fits all model. It bothers me that some developers (and their political supporters) want Apple to give them more and more but without the developer having to put more skin in the game.
I guess we'll see how this latest experiment plays out.
What a stupid decision. Apple should not allow small guys to twist their arms.
i would jack up the developer anual price to $299 to make up for all the BS. Heck Apple should charge $999/year. Nothing is free.
Developer fees are probably a rounding error compared to the commission revenue from the App Store. Also, raising the developer fee will have a greater impact on small developers not the big ones.
Apple could implement a license model similar to Epic’s unreal engine. Unreal engine license is 0% to learn, create, and distribute free content. Sales over 1M pay 5% royalties. I can see this being the way forward for Apple if Apple is required to allow alternate app stores were Apple does no app review, no hosting, no payment processing.
What a stupid decision. Apple should not allow small guys to twist their arms.
i would jack up the developer anual price to $299 to make up for all the BS. Heck Apple should charge $999/year. Nothing is free.
That would be madness, and wall off tons of hobbyist developers just starting out. Even Microsoft has put out a free versions of its IDE. You want to nurture new developers, not exclude them. Stick to day job, please.
If a developer emails me about a different payment process I’ll tell them to GTH and trash their app.
Developer: "You can save 30% by purchasing using any major credit card." Rob53: "Go to hell, I'll pay full price!!!!!"
Seems completely logical.
Why do you think App developer or company willing to give you 30% discount automatically when they are not pay 30% per transaction to Apple? Each App developer who does not have web payment system now they need to get one. Which it will cost them. Set up the web site and store customer's credit card info and verified and secure it also need spend money..
Epic was already done this prior they start iOS app. So they can give you some discount. I remembered it was 20% off. Even Epic could not give you 30% off.. lol.. So developer or company does not set this up yet then I wonder how much money they will save it? Also these days weak security on payment system will be hacked.. How much it will cost to clean that up..
Why would I hire people to handle payment system rather pay 30% to Apple when ever App has transaction. I think this is way cheaper.
If it's allowed then there will be payment vendor frameworks published within a month. Developers will be able to embed solutions from PaypPal, Square, hell maybe even VISA and MasterCard will get in it directly. Fees will be less than 10% and it'll be just as secure as Apple Pay. No way will Apple Pay be cheaper.
The only acceptable solution is for Apple to unlock app installation. It's MY iPhone, not Apple's iPhone. I should be able to install ANY app from ANY source of MY choosing.
This misses the demands by a country mile. That small developer fund makes me cringe. Is that a pay off for developers that must sign away their rights in order to get a piece of the pie? (Sign me up though as I have no plans to sue Apple.)
As usual, what is missing here is the rights of the customer to install whatever apps they choose to. Not one word of Apple's proposal talks about what users are allowed to do with their devices. It is once again focused on money. Apple has lost sight of the people that actually make the platform successful. Not Apple and not the developers. It is the people that buy iOS devices.
For people who are all gung-ho on developers transacting outside the app store, and thus cutting Apple out of a commission - how do you think Apple should be able to charge for the use of their store, platforms, marketing, developer support, and client base access? Per download? Tiered fixed rates based on volume? What method?
So if everyone were to make their app free on the app store, and sell the activation of full services for their app outside, Apple should not make anything for providing such access?
If a developer emails me about a different payment process I’ll tell them to GTH and trash their app.
Developer: "You can save 30% by purchasing using any major credit card." Rob53: "Go to hell, I'll pay full price!!!!!"
Seems completely logical.
Seems completely logical that you think they will offer 30% savings. Exactly the amount they are getting saved themselves.
And yeah, pay 30 cents less on a dollar app. For that savings you will be able to expose your credit card credentials to the world. Good luck covering then your account overdraft with those 30 cents.
If a developer emails me about a different payment process I’ll tell them to GTH and trash their app.
Developer: "You can save 305% by purchasing using any major credit card." Rob53: "Go to hell, I'll pay full price!!!!!"
Seems completely logical.
There, fixed that for you. Developers are not going to just give money away. This argument by developers like Epic was only made to try to garner support from end users. They were never intending to give back the full 30% to end user out of the goodness of their hearts.
5% would seem about right at most and could see many offering “increased functionality” instead of savings. Buy direct for cross platform cloud support.
The developers involved are on 15% rate anyway and have stated Apple commission is “profit killing”. If they need to pay an external company 5% in handling own payment system then it will cost them the same again in management time. Any discount is above 5% is potentially reducing profits.
Comments
Also, calling the App Store "great" is hilarious in tis own right. Increasingly full of advertising and paid marketing puffery (you didn't think that editorial content you see about particular apps or groups of apps was free or generated by Apple out of the goodness of its heart, did you?), poor ability to surface apps from small developers, tens of thousands if not millions of copycat apps freely stealing the intellectual property of other apps, and minimal protection against bad-actor actions due to a fundamentally broken and overwhelmed review process.
The App Store is a bare-minimum effort that makes Apple a shitton of money. That's their only motivation in defending it so aggressively, and creating this non-settlement to try and save the golden goose. Apple does a lot of things incredibly well and produces best-in-class products. The App Store is not one of them.
Each App developer who does not have web payment system now they need to get one. Which it will cost them.
Set up the web site and store customer's credit card info and verified and secure it also need spend money..
Epic was already done this prior they start iOS app. So they can give you some discount. I remembered it was 20% off.
Even Epic could not give you 30% off.. lol..
So developer or company does not set this up yet then I wonder how much money they will save it?
Also these days weak security on payment system will be hacked.. How much it will cost to clean that up..
Why would I hire people to handle payment system rather pay 30% to Apple when ever App has transaction. I think this is way cheaper.
This angers me. I don't want to use "alternative" payment methods. I am using App Store to buy software hses because it helps me organize all my purchases with a single payment method.
Remember Adobe? It literally messed up when the subscription account got hacked and my personal data is now forever exposed in my "dark web" reporting even to this day.
Companies need to agree on the standard on subscriptions/purchases and let Apple take care of all personal data. I don't want spam. I don't want junk. I don't want any other companies to have access to my personal data. All they need to do is get a token from Apple and if any of them are hacked, tokens are revoked and the problem solved. No personal data gets shared.
I am so glad Apple is introducing an anonymous email address feature for new registrations in MacOS Monterory because I am definitely going to use that.
/s
At $999 a year bedroom development is dead, and that's how quite a lot of apps started. WhatsApp for instance. They will go to the Android platform. Good work there.
We’re not talking about big-ticket items here. Most Apps are under $5. The average iOS user spends about $100 a year on Apps (varies by country). It’s not worth the risk of saving $20 a year by handing out my credit card number to numerous companies.
As usual, what is missing here is the rights of the customer to install whatever apps they choose to. Not one word of Apple's proposal talks about what users are allowed to do with their devices. It is once again focused on money. Apple has lost sight of the people that actually make the platform successful. Not Apple and not the developers. It is the people that buy iOS devices.
So if everyone were to make their app free on the app store, and sell the activation of full services for their app outside, Apple should not make anything for providing such access?
The developers involved are on 15% rate anyway and have stated Apple commission is “profit killing”. If they need to pay an external company 5% in handling own payment system then it will cost them the same again in management time. Any discount is above 5% is potentially reducing profits.