We had one a-hole coworker here that died a couple weeks ago. She was anti-vaccine. Now, I couldn't care less that COVID is thinning the herd of these Darwin-award winners, but the prior week before she died she was at the office, without a care in the world. Her ignorant, stupid, selfish decision that it was "my body, my choice" affected others in her department. We had to shut down the entire department she worked in, which was a vital, production department and all the employees had to quarantine because of it.
Your "freedom" to take the vaccine or not stops when your selfish decision affects other people. I have quite a few fully-vaccinated friends that got hit with the delta-variant and one got hit hard. It's because of these selfish a-holes that refuse to get vaccinated is why we're still dealing with it.
I hope Apple and other companies fire any able-bodied anti-vaxxer. Unless you have a bonafide, actual medical reason signed off by an actual, science-based doctor excusing you from the vaccine, consider yourself unemployed.
I'm so fed up with these people. These anti-vaxxers honestly should pay all the health-care costs of their hospitalization, or be denied hospital treatment altogether. What an embarrassment.
You're contradicting your own theory... If you have "several" fully vaccinated people getting "hit" with the Delta Variant - then why couldn't one of them be the source of the infection in your office - instead of the one that wasn't vaccinated? Your logic doesn't follow every possible conclusion. You assume that someone unvaccinated was the source of the infection - however you clearly stated that fully vaccinated people can be infected as well. Take a step back and try to fully comprehend your illogical stance...
You're contradicting your own theory... If you have "several" fully vaccinated people getting "hit" with the Delta Variant - then why couldn't one of them be the source of the infection in your office - instead of the one that wasn't vaccinated? Your logic doesn't follow every possible conclusion. You assume that someone unvaccinated was the source of the infection - however you clearly stated that fully vaccinated people can be infected as well. Take a step back and try to fully comprehend your illogical stance...
Definitely some truth to this. With Delta, vaccinated people are getting and spreading Covid. It easily could have been a vaccinated person who spread it to the office. However, it is _less_ likely that a vaccinated person would get sick and spread Covid. For an office environment, it would be about minimizing rather than eliminating risk.
Another big factor for an employer: Hospitalization is extremely expensive, and employees' health expenditures directly affect negotiations with the employer's health insurance provider. The vaccine has a very good effect at preventing serious illness and hospitalization, so that alone would be a good reason to require it. Finally, because unvaccinated employees are more likely to have serious illness, they're also more likely to miss long periods of work because they're sick with covid.
Overall, employers aren't running a charity. They're trying to make money, which is more difficult with more sick employees spending health insurance dollars and sick leave time.
We had one a-hole coworker here that died a couple weeks ago. She was anti-vaccine. Now, I couldn't care less that COVID is thinning the herd of these Darwin-award winners, but the prior week before she died she was at the office, without a care in the world. Her ignorant, stupid, selfish decision that it was "my body, my choice" affected others in her department. We had to shut down the entire department she worked in, which was a vital, production department and all the employees had to quarantine because of it.
Your "freedom" to take the vaccine or not stops when your selfish decision affects other people. I have quite a few fully-vaccinated friends that got hit with the delta-variant and one got hit hard. It's because of these selfish a-holes that refuse to get vaccinated is why we're still dealing with it.
I hope Apple and other companies fire any able-bodied anti-vaxxer. Unless you have a bonafide, actual medical reason signed off by an actual, science-based doctor excusing you from the vaccine, consider yourself unemployed.
I'm so fed up with these people. These anti-vaxxers honestly should pay all the health-care costs of their hospitalization, or be denied hospital treatment altogether. What an embarrassment.
OK, so your coworker died and you had to shut down the entire department and stay home. Actions/consequences, I guess.
Next up, the whole "anti-vaxxer" vs. "pro-vaxxers" both got sick. Kind of negates your first argument. From the way you word your argument, it looks like there are two different groups of people. From your testimony, caccinated people get sick too, and if they did something that you don't agree with (like helping those that are sick with COVID), should they die too?
Finally, denying hospital treatment... there was a series of MTV movies entitled as another name for a donkey, and since they're doing what society calls idiotic things, do they get denied in the emergency room as well?
Your illogic boils down to, "I don't like what you do, and you should die after being fired." Maybe a job in selling greeting cards is in the offing.
Lastly, and this is a story about a less toxic subject: A high risk pregnancy (and I think we can all agree on the outcome, so please read, and I am treading lightly on this):
My sister in law had a high risk pregnancy, where the placenta attached near the Fallopian tubes, and when discovered, she was advised to terminate the pregnancy. She and her husband decided not to, and that required her to be flown from Montana to Seattle to be checked in to UW Hospital. She was continually advised to terminate the pregnancy, as if things ruptured, she would bleed out in 2 minutes. She had a port put in her arm as a precaution. When asked the final time, she said, "Listen, I want you to stop asking me about terminating the pregnancy. You will get one of two outcomes. The first is that I'll die, and you can use my body to figure out what went wrong, and the second is that we'll have the baby, and you can use everything you've learned to help others in this condition." She had a C-Section at 30 weeks (2 weeks later), as well as a hysterectomy (too much damage to her uterus).
My niece, who I saw last week is a 7 year old bundle of love, her mother is doing well, and UW has a wealth of knowledge of how to handle women who have high risk pregnancies of this type.
The point of this story is that life is complex, and there are a number of things that are not known by the spectating (and commenting) crowd, and flushing a whole group of people down the drain because you don't agree with them is a bit, well, harsh. Remember: what ever you do, at least 90% of the people in the world will find fault.
I am tired of this BS of either woeful or willful ignorance. Probabilities are real. Everything is not 50/50 he-said-she-said. The vaccine is not a magic video game armor that makes people 100% assured of protection. It significantly increases the probability of protection. The idiots refusing vaccination have a much higher probability of infection and are rapidly becoming prolific disease vectors, catching Delta Covid in large numbers and greatly increasing the likelihood that even the vaccinated people around them will become exposed. Some of those exposed vaccinated people will get the virus, though far fewer than those who are not vaccinated. Some of those will also get sick, but vastly fewer than those who were unvaccinated. A few will even die, but astronomically fewer than those who are not vaccinated.
Pretending that getting vaccinated makes no difference because some vaccinated people also get it is being ignorant of probabilities and is just profoundly dumb. If everyone who was eligible got the vaccine, transmission rates of even the Delta variant would be much, much lower right now, to the point it likely wouldn't even be much discussed. Instead, people jacked up on their politics are ignoring probabilities, dismissing incontrovertible medical evidence, refusing vaccines backed by all that, but taking horse dewormer after they get sick because somebody on the internet said it works. People are dying in large numbers because of all this. I am tired of catering to the willfully ignorant, worrying that being too harsh will put them off. The hell with that. Act like a responsible adult member of civilization and get the damn vaccine.
I somewhat disagree with what you are saying. With the Delta variant, it's spreading just as much between unvaccinated and vaccinated people. Most of the studies you see in the media have been done before Delta. The few that are coming out from places like Israel are showing Delta is capable of very high infection rates among those who are vaccinated. When Israel has 80% of its adult population vaccinated and the Delta wave there is bad, that tells you being vaccinated might not curb the spread of the virus as much as we originally thought. Data from other countries that has been trickling out is proving that as well. Having said that, I don't think people should be using infection rates as a debate on whether or not they should or shouldn't take the vaccine. The whole point of vaccines is to protect you from severe sickness, hospitalization, and death. That alone should be enough for people to get vaccinated. If an anti-vaxxer wants to argue infection rates, the best response is to use the hospitalization and death rates of those who aren't vaccinated compared to those who are.
However, it is _less_ likely that a vaccinated person would get sick and spread Covid.
Is there any data on this?
What I've read on this is that vaccinated people who get a delta-variant "breakthrough" infection seem to be more likely to be asymptomatically infectious.
From the studies I've seen, that seems to be the case. I think the statement that it's less likely a vaccinated person would get sick and spread Covid was true before the delta variant. On a personal basis, I got covid from a vaccinated person last month and I'm vaccinated as well.
I live in Florida and just went to the dentist today. I asked them if they wanted my proof of vaccination since they will be working in my mouth. They told me that Florida state law prevents them from asking me for my COVID vaccination record. They are one of my healthcare providers who I provide my medical history to on a regular basis. Yet they aren’t allowed to ask me my vaccination status. When I see my primary care physician for my next regular check up I’m going to ask him if he is allowed to ask given he is my main doctor. It’s absurd.
Volunteer reporting is about as useless as self-nominating surveys. There is no way that volunteer reporting will produce any worthwhile data concerning the status of employee vaccinations. Even if Apple were to mandate a response people would lie through their teeth, especially the hard corp anti-vaxxers. The only way to get any semblance of accurate data would be to require employees to show proof of vaccination. Sure, there might be few that would resort to counterfeit vaccination cards but it would be much harder than simply lying on a survey.
The people who run surveys and volunteer reporting always forget about human nature. Personally I love screwing around with telephone surveys. I always respond to their crafted questions with answers that go against what they want to hear. Political surveys from politicians are the most fun to mess with.
Except...what will happen is that if asked, and they lie and are later shown to have lied, this will become grounds (cause) for dismissal.
In most states you can be arrested, and charged. Possible fine and jail time.
i’m glad they aren’t forcing employees to get vaccinated. no one should be forced to take the vaccine.
Yes, they should. Apple should be ashamed of itself for not mandating vaccination, especially since Tim Cook loves saying “at Apple we really care about the health of our customers…” I guess they don’t care so much about their worker units.
We had one a-hole coworker here that died a couple weeks ago. She was anti-vaccine. Now, I couldn't care less that COVID is thinning the herd of these Darwin-award winners by, but the prior week before she died she was at the office, without a care in the world. Her ignorant, stupid, selfish decision that it was "my body, my choice" affected others in her department. We had to shut down the entire department she worked in, which was a vital, production department and all the employees had to quarantine because of it.
Your "freedom" to take the vaccine or not stops when your selfish decision affects other people. I have quite a few fully-vaccinated friends that got hit with the delta-variant and one got hit hard. It's because of these selfish a-holes that refuse to get vaccinated is why we're still dealing with it.
I hope Apple and other companies fire any able-bodied anti-vaxxer. Unless you have a bonafide, actual medical reason signed off by an actual, science-based doctor excusing you from the vaccine, consider yourself unemployed.
I'm so fed up with these people. These anti-vaxxers honestly should pay all the health-care costs of their hospitalization, or be denied hospital treatment altogether. What an embarrassment.
You're contradicting your own theory... If you have "several" fully vaccinated people getting "hit" with the Delta Variant - then why couldn't one of them be the source of the infection in your office - instead of the one that wasn't vaccinated? Your logic doesn't follow every possible conclusion. You assume that someone unvaccinated was the source of the infection - however you clearly stated that fully vaccinated people can be infected as well. Take a step back and try to fully comprehend your illogical stance...
The probabilities are clear. The virus is rampant among the unvaccinated because they are vastly more likely to get and transmit the disease. That data is known and incontrovertible. It is this prevalence of the virus in large numbers amongst the ignorant, careless unvaccinated that causes the virus to find the much lower number of vaccinated people who are still susceptible anyway.
If everyone who is eligible got vaccinated as soon as they could, we would not now be in the worst spike of the entire pandemic. A much lower number of people would still be susceptible and transmission of the virus would be stifled and blocked.
I hope this is voluntary for now. Apple must and should mandate vaccinations for all workers that are medically capable. Since the return to the office won't happen before early 2022, those workers will have more time. But retail workers should be vaccinated at once (if they haven't done so already). It's for the good of workers, customers and others that may come in contact with them.
A former classmate tried to BS the school where he teaches with a religious exemption argument. He threatened to resign and get his church and pols involved. In the end he got vaccinated as the pols and many of his fellow church members back vaccinations. And I guess the thought of not having a paycheck was a great spiritual awakening.
We had one a-hole coworker here that died a couple weeks ago. She was anti-vaccine. Now, I couldn't care less that COVID is thinning the herd of these Darwin-award winners, but the prior week before she died she was at the office, without a care in the world. Her ignorant, stupid, selfish decision that it was "my body, my choice" affected others in her department. We had to shut down the entire department she worked in, which was a vital, production department and all the employees had to quarantine because of it.
Your "freedom" to take the vaccine or not stops when your selfish decision affects other people. I have quite a few fully-vaccinated friends that got hit with the delta-variant and one got hit hard. It's because of these selfish a-holes that refuse to get vaccinated is why we're still dealing with it.
I hope Apple and other companies fire any able-bodied anti-vaxxer. Unless you have a bonafide, actual medical reason signed off by an actual, science-based doctor excusing you from the vaccine, consider yourself unemployed.
I'm so fed up with these people. These anti-vaxxers honestly should pay all the health-care costs of their hospitalization, or be denied hospital treatment altogether. What an embarrassment.
OK, so your coworker died and you had to shut down the entire department and stay home. Actions/consequences, I guess.
Next up, the whole "anti-vaxxer" vs. "pro-vaxxers" both got sick. Kind of negates your first argument. From the way you word your argument, it looks like there are two different groups of people. From your testimony, caccinated people get sick too, and if they did something that you don't agree with (like helping those that are sick with COVID), should they die too?
Finally, denying hospital treatment... there was a series of MTV movies entitled as another name for a donkey, and since they're doing what society calls idiotic things, do they get denied in the emergency room as well?
Your illogic boils down to, "I don't like what you do, and you should die after being fired." Maybe a job in selling greeting cards is in the offing.
Lastly, and this is a story about a less toxic subject: A high risk pregnancy (and I think we can all agree on the outcome, so please read, and I am treading lightly on this):
My sister in law had a high risk pregnancy, where the placenta attached near the Fallopian tubes, and when discovered, she was advised to terminate the pregnancy. She and her husband decided not to, and that required her to be flown from Montana to Seattle to be checked in to UW Hospital. She was continually advised to terminate the pregnancy, as if things ruptured, she would bleed out in 2 minutes. She had a port put in her arm as a precaution. When asked the final time, she said, "Listen, I want you to stop asking me about terminating the pregnancy. You will get one of two outcomes. The first is that I'll die, and you can use my body to figure out what went wrong, and the second is that we'll have the baby, and you can use everything you've learned to help others in this condition." She had a C-Section at 30 weeks (2 weeks later), as well as a hysterectomy (too much damage to her uterus).
My niece, who I saw last week is a 7 year old bundle of love, her mother is doing well, and UW has a wealth of knowledge of how to handle women who have high risk pregnancies of this type.
The point of this story is that life is complex, and there are a number of things that are not known by the spectating (and commenting) crowd, and flushing a whole group of people down the drain because you don't agree with them is a bit, well, harsh. Remember: what ever you do, at least 90% of the people in the world will find fault.
I am tired of this BS of either woeful or willful ignorance. Probabilities are real. Everything is not 50/50 he-said-she-said. The vaccine is not a magic video game armor that makes people 100% assured of protection. It significantly increases the probability of protection. The idiots refusing vaccination have a much higher probability of infection and are rapidly becoming prolific disease vectors, catching Delta Covid in large numbers and greatly increasing the likelihood that even the vaccinated people around them will become exposed. Some of those exposed vaccinated people will get the virus, though far fewer than those who are not vaccinated. Some of those will also get sick, but vastly fewer than those who were unvaccinated. A few will even die, but astronomically fewer than those who are not vaccinated.
Pretending that getting vaccinated makes no difference because some vaccinated people also get it is being ignorant of probabilities and is just profoundly dumb. If everyone who was eligible got the vaccine, transmission rates of even the Delta variant would be much, much lower right now, to the point it likely wouldn't even be much discussed. Instead, people jacked up on their politics are ignoring probabilities, dismissing incontrovertible medical evidence, refusing vaccines backed by all that, but taking horse dewormer after they get sick because somebody on the internet said it works. People are dying in large numbers because of all this. I am tired of catering to the willfully ignorant, worrying that being too harsh will put them off. The hell with that. Act like a responsible adult member of civilization and get the damn vaccine.
I somewhat disagree with what you are saying. With the Delta variant, it's spreading just as much between unvaccinated and vaccinated people. Most of the studies you see in the media have been done before Delta. The few that are coming out from places like Israel are showing Delta is capable of very high infection rates among those who are vaccinated. When Israel has 80% of its adult population vaccinated and the Delta wave there is bad, that tells you being vaccinated might not curb the spread of the virus as much as we originally thought. Data from other countries that has been trickling out is proving that as well. Having said that, I don't think people should be using infection rates as a debate on whether or not they should or shouldn't take the vaccine. The whole point of vaccines is to protect you from severe sickness, hospitalization, and death. That alone should be enough for people to get vaccinated. If an anti-vaxxer wants to argue infection rates, the best response is to use the hospitalization and death rates of those who aren't vaccinated compared to those who are.
However, it is _less_ likely that a vaccinated person would get sick and spread Covid.
Is there any data on this?
What I've read on this is that vaccinated people who get a delta-variant "breakthrough" infection seem to be more likely to be asymptomatically infectious.
First, dws-2 is right according to CDC. Vaccinated people are less likely to get the virus. If they get it, less likely to get symptoms. If they get symptoms, less likely to require hospitalisation, etc.. And, crucially, they appear to be infectious for shorter time.
It depends on what you mean by “more likely.” More likely THAN what?
More likely to spread the virus as ASYMPTOMATIC carriers, THAN if they were not vaccinated—because the vaccine reduces symptoms. —YES More likely to spread the virus, THAN the unvaccinated. —NO
A good starting point for the lay person (like me):
It's quite amazing (and not a little disturbing) how quickly COVID brought out the authoritarian in so many people.
Expecting people to get vaccinated during a pandemic is not authoritarian. Expecting people to wear masks and take other precautions during a pandemic is not authoritarian. It’s members of a civilization taking civic responsibility. The pathway out of this thing requires it. Claiming that these things are authoritarian is selfish, juvenile, and buttressed by willful ignorance and a twisted misunderstanding of what “freedom” is.
Obviously we have people on both sides some say people should be forced to get vaccinated and some that say it is personal choice. For those who are upset the Government/Companies has not forcing people to be vaccinated here is the reason why, this dates back to the 1920 100 years ago. When the government mandate the force sterilization of men and women, a "government mandate medical procedure." This went on for 50 yrs until the another Supreme court finally stop the practice.
The venerated Oliver Wendell Holmes wrote the decision upholding the Virginia law that ended a woman's right to be a mother, by saying it was no different than vaccination:
"The judgment finds the facts that have been recited and that Carrie Buck 'is the probable potential parent of socially inadequate offspring, likewise afflicted, that she may be sexually sterilized without detriment to her general health and that her welfare and that of society will be promoted by her sterilization,' and thereupon makes the order. In view of the general declarations of the Legislature and the specific findings of the Court obviously we cannot say as matter of law that the grounds do not exist, and if they exist they justify the result. We have seen more than once that the public welfare may call upon the best citizens for their lives. It would be strange if it could not call upon those who already sap the strength of the State for these lesser sacrifices, often not felt to be such by those concerned, in order to prevent our being swamped with incompetence. It is better for all the world, if instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime, or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes. Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 , 25 S. Ct. 358, 3 Ann. Cas. 765. Three generations of imbeciles are enough."
Holmes cites this case about smallpox vaccine and even claims in this case if the vaccine may not be the best solution and may harm the person for various health reason the government still have right to force you to be vaccinate for community heath reason. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts there has been a lot of except to this law over the years, however, you notice they not willing to use this case law today.
At the Nuremberg trials, Nazi doctors literally cited Buck v. Bell in their own defense. this should make everyone sick.
Buck v. Bell has never been officially overturned. In 1978, however, one victim of forced sterilization sued the State of Oklahoma before the Supreme Court, and won. The decision resulting from Skinner v. Oklahoma created legal obstacles that effectively put a stop to mass compulsory sterilization.
Everyone in government know about these cases and they know they will go afoul of the law that prevents them from mandating anything medical.
Our government know they can not absolutely mandate, however, they are making it very hard for businesses to operating unless they mandate vaccination. Case are already making their ways through the court it going to take years but most likely Companies will also run up against the same laws and rights as the government. Notice no one in the media is talking about this and why the government is not mandating. Becuase they do not want you know you have legal rights to do what is in your best interest.
For those who think it is your right to tell others what to do, think again, you have no such right. nether does the government. However, you are free to do what you want to protect yourself and you are free not to associate with people you do not agree with. In this case if you feel you are at risk, then get vaccinated and if you do not think that is enough wear the mask or the whole hazmat suit. Nothing I or anyone else is doing is interfering with your ability to protect yourself.
Also companies may run afoul under HIPPA, they are not allow to ask anyone about their medial affairs, thus all these volunteer requirements, which are not really volunteer since they are holding your job over your head, most likely will not pass scrutiny once legally challenged. Much of this is on shaky legal ground and the government is hoping it does not go to the Supreme Court to set precedence they do not like, but than again they have not be the smart about it
It will not stop this current government from ignoring the laws of this land and your personal rights they did it with the rent eviction moratorium. They knew they had no legal ground to stop people from being evicted from property they do not own. But government went ahead and did it anyway, Supreme court set them straight, but they again tried to extend the illegal mandate and got told again to stop. This government is only interest in see what they take away from your verse preserving what is rightfully yours.
Science does not care what your politics are or where you go to worship (or not).
I work in healthcare and am directly exposed to confirmed positive and potential Covid infected people every shift I work and I am quite tired of these people who will believe everyone but a qualified and informed scientist or Physician. I had to throw a family member out of our ER last week who refused to comply with our policy and opposed the most polite and reasonable requests to conform. It is tedious to repeatedly deal with this and their behavior is dangerous to staff, visitors and patients.
I am not the lawyer of the family but it seems such a policy could open Apple to potential lawsuits later on. Tim should plainly tell them to get vaccinated or find other work and that they will not be eligible for rehire for refusing to follow policy.
We are far from done with Covid as most of the people on our planet are not vaccinated and the virus will continue to mutate. The Delta variant that is the current dominant one in the US came from India. Expect more waves later on until the bulk of humanity has been vaccinated.
Nobody is more tired of PPE and all the rest than I, but it is well past time we all start acting like responsible adults and do what is necessary to protect the vulnerable and get this virus under control.
You are correct Covid and it is 7 other Covid strains that have been around for 100 yrs are here to stay, SARS is a Cocvid virus and its still around and more deadly. We all have to deal with it. However, we have been dealing with Covid viruses for a long time this one obvious far worse then the flu or common cold which come from very weak virus. Were you throwing people out in the past when they walk in the one of many strains of flu virous some of which were very deadly to people with raspatory issues. No we were not we dealt with it and it affects.
We will never return a zero covid state, and vaccine even as good they are today will never get us to zero by the mere fact even people who have been vaccinated are still get sick.
Right now the data from various research being done show those who have been previous infected have far better immunity against the variant than the vacation alone.
Israel is one of the few actually tracking the vaccine and cases and its real world effectiveness, they stuck a deal with Pfizer to collect all this information and provide it to Pfizer. To your comment about the so called experts and people not listening to the experts. Many lost creditability because people are able to see for themselves what is happen and it not matching the statements of the experts. When you have expert challenge the fact that the human immune system are not as good a vaccines you have to question what they are thinking. Also many experts are not speaking out due to the fear of losing their jobs. There is very little debate going on around the data or what is actually happening. Most of the data they are using to say this is what needs to happen is base on model not real world data, becuase real world data is very messy and evey human is different. Model should not be used to guide decision when you have real world date, but they keep follow back to the models.
I'll give you my personal experience, myself, wife and son all had chickenpox as children, my daughter was born during the time of the chickenpox vax, she got it (will not go through the decision process) she is now 24 and entering the heath field, thus required to be check for immunities such as chickenpox, 4 yrs ago she still had the immunity last years test no immunity (they tested twice to be sure) she got booster last year, got tested again this year as required, again no immunity, tested twice. Again got another booster and was told if she tests negative again next year she will be required to do the 3 shoot regiment. We are being told she will most likely be required to revaccinate every so many years from this point forward. Getting chickenpox as an adult is far worse than as kid and you better hope not to get while pregnant. My wife an I both get our immunities tested every few years and we still have our immunity to chickenpox to the point now my Dr is saying I should get the shingle vaccine since the pox virus my still active in my system.
I tell people to question everything they are told and see if it make sense and consistent with what we already know.
Our government know they can not mandate anything, however, they are making it very hard for businesses to operating unless they mandate vaccination.
This is a kind of "backdoor mandate." Not too different from the "backdoor draft" implemented during the past 2-3 decades of wars. And very similar in form to the "backdoor censorship" implemented by "coordinating" with major social media companies to combat "disinformation" and "fake news".
Power always tries to find a way.
And it everyone's constitutional right to fight them every step of the way.
However, it is _less_ likely that a vaccinated person would get sick and spread Covid.
Is there any data on this?
What I've read on this is that vaccinated people who get a delta-variant "breakthrough" infection seem to be more likely to be asymptomatically infectious.
I think what you're saying is that, once sick, vaccinated people spread it just as effectively as unvaccinated, which is true, with the caveat that the vaccinated tend to have a shorter period of time when contagious. What I was trying to say is that vaccinated people were less likely to get (and therefore spread) covid.
The protection of the vaccines from getting sick from Delta ranges anywhere from a low of about 35% (in other words, about 1/3, which is if three unvaccinated people get sick, then two vaccinated people get sick under the same conditions) to a high of about 80%. The range might be because of the differences in the populations being tested and the time since vaccination. For example, in Israel, the number is around 35%, maybe because it has been a long time since initial vaccination. In England, the protection is much better, maybe because they spaced out their shots more widely, and the time since people's second shot is much shorter.
What is confusing is that the CDC, until recently, was combining numbers from Delta and non-Delta covid, which incorrectly made the protection from the vaccine seem higher than it is. In general, the CDC has done a bad job of monitoring and updating when new information becomes available. They have also been really bad at communicating, making absolute statements one day, then changing it the next day. This is a fast changing situation, and communication should be clear about that uncertainty rather than state everything as a fact.
Obviously we have people on both sides some say people should be forced to get vaccinated and some that say it is personal choice. For those who are upset the Government/Companies has not forcing people to be vaccinated here is the reason why, this dates back to the 1920 100 years ago. When the government mandate the force sterilization of men and women, a "government mandate medical procedure." This went on for 50 yrs until the another Supreme court finally stop the practice.
The venerated Oliver Wendell Holmes wrote the decision upholding the Virginia law that ended a woman's right to be a mother, by saying it was no different than vaccination:
"The judgment finds the facts that have been recited and that Carrie Buck 'is the probable potential parent of socially inadequate offspring, likewise afflicted, that she may be sexually sterilized without detriment to her general health and that her welfare and that of society will be promoted by her sterilization,' and thereupon makes the order. In view of the general declarations of the Legislature and the specific findings of the Court obviously we cannot say as matter of law that the grounds do not exist, and if they exist they justify the result. We have seen more than once that the public welfare may call upon the best citizens for their lives. It would be strange if it could not call upon those who already sap the strength of the State for these lesser sacrifices, often not felt to be such by those concerned, in order to prevent our being swamped with incompetence. It is better for all the world, if instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime, or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes. Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 , 25 S. Ct. 358, 3 Ann. Cas. 765. Three generations of imbeciles are enough."
Holmes cites this case about smallpox vaccine and even claims in this case if the vaccine may not be the best solution and may harm the person for various health reason the government still have right to force you to be vaccinate for community heath reason. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts there has been a lot of except to this law over the years, however, you notice they not willing to use this case law today.
At the Nuremberg trials, Nazi doctors literally cited Buck v. Bell in their own defense. this should make everyone sick.
Buck v. Bell has never been officially overturned. In 1978, however, one victim of forced sterilization sued the State of Oklahoma before the Supreme Court, and won. The decision resulting from Skinner v. Oklahoma created legal obstacles that effectively put a stop to mass compulsory sterilization.
Everyone in government know about these cases and they know they will go afoul of the law that prevents them from mandating anything medical.
Our government know they can not mandate anything, however, they are making it very hard for businesses to operating unless they mandate vaccination. Case are already making their ways through the court it going to take years but most likely Companies will also run up against the same laws and rights as the government. Notice no one in the media is talking about this and why the government is not mandting. Becuase they do not want you know you have legal rights to do what is in your best interest.
For those who think it is your right to tell others what to do, think again, you have no such right. nether does the government. However, you are free to do what you want to protect yourself and you are free not to associate with people you do not agree with. In this case if you feel you are at risk then get vaccinated and if you do not think that is enough wear the mask or the whole hazmat suit. Nothing I or anyone else is doing is interfering with your ability to protect yourself.
Also company may run afoul under HIPPA, they are not allow to ask anyone about their medial affairs, thus all these volunteer requirements, which are not really volunteer since they are holding your job over your head, most likely will not pass scrutiny once legally challenged.
It will not stop this current government from ignoring the laws of this land and your personal rights they did it with the rent eviction moratorium. They knew they had no legal ground to stop people from being evicted from property they do not own. But government went ahead and did it anyway, Supreme court set them straight, but they again tried to extend the illegal mandate and got told again to stop. This government is only interest in see what they take away from your verse preserving what is rightfully yours.
That is a BS argument. Vaccination mandates are not forced sterilization. Vaccination mandates have been upheld by the courts, including the current Supreme Court.
Also, HIPPA is not a thing. HIPAA refers to the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996. Unless you are part of a healthcare entity, the private protections in HIPAA do not apply. HIPAA does not prevent your employer from asking if you are vaccinated, including asking for proof of it. Even if you are part of a healthcare entity, there are exemptions to restrictions on disclosure of health information as it relates to a public health crisis.
I am tired of BS misinformation being spread on this subject. This misinformation is killing people.
However, it is _less_ likely that a vaccinated person would get sick and spread Covid.
Is there any data on this?
What I've read on this is that vaccinated people who get a delta-variant "breakthrough" infection seem to be more likely to be asymptomatically infectious.
I think what you're saying is that, once sick, vaccinated people spread it just as effectively as unvaccinated, which is true, with the caveat that the vaccinated tend to have a shorter period of time when contagious. What I was trying to say is that vaccinated people were less likely to get (and therefore spread) covid.
The protection of the vaccines from getting sick from Delta ranges anywhere from a low of about 35% (in other words, about 1/3, which is if three unvaccinated people get sick, then two vaccinated people get sick under the same conditions) to a high of about 80%. The range might be because of the differences in the populations being tested and the time since vaccination. For example, in Israel, the number is around 35%, maybe because it has been a long time since initial vaccination. In England, the protection is much better, maybe because they spaced out their shots more widely, and the time since people's second shot is much shorter.
What is confusing is that the CDC, until recently, was combining numbers from Delta and non-Delta covid, which incorrectly made the protection from the vaccine seem higher than it is. In general, the CDC has done a bad job of monitoring and updating when new information becomes available. They have also been really bad at communicating, making absolute statements one day, then changing it the next day. This is a fast changing situation, and communication should be clear about that uncertainty rather than state everything as a fact.
It is not true that "vaccinated people spread it just as effectively as unvaccinated." See the links I provided upthread. Also, although I haven't seen studies on this, I would venture that mask-wearing and being vaccinated correlates highly, which means those who are vaccinated likely do more to prevent the spread than unvaccinated idiots who are determined to assert their "freedom" by doing nothing and pretending the pandemic doesn't exist.
The CDC's communications as you mentioned here are plagued by a catch-22. If they state something unequivocally, but new information or actual changes in what's going on then changes the message, their prior assertiveness is used by idiots as "examples" of why they're not to believed. For example, at the beginning of the pandemic there was an acute shortage of PPE. The recommendation at that time was for the public not to rush out and get masks because healthcare workers had a more immediate need to access the limited supply. As PPE supplies caught up and new data on transmissibility became available, the recommendation changed to telling the public to wear masks. To this day, idiots use that change in recommendation as "proof" the CDC can't be trusted.
One the flip side, whenever things are communicated to explain probabilities as a factor in what's recommended, idiots fail to understand probabilities or purposefully distort or ignore them, in order to "refute" recommendations. You can look upthread to see plenty of examples of that BS.
We had one a-hole coworker here that died a couple weeks ago. She was anti-vaccine. Now, I couldn't care less that COVID is thinning the herd of these Darwin-award winners, but the prior week before she died she was at the office, without a care in the world. Her ignorant, stupid, selfish decision that it was "my body, my choice" affected others in her department. We had to shut down the entire department she worked in, which was a vital, production department and all the employees had to quarantine because of it.
Your "freedom" to take the vaccine or not stops when your selfish decision affects other people. I have quite a few fully-vaccinated friends that got hit with the delta-variant and one got hit hard. It's because of these selfish a-holes that refuse to get vaccinated is why we're still dealing with it.
I hope Apple and other companies fire any able-bodied anti-vaxxer. Unless you have a bonafide, actual medical reason signed off by an actual, science-based doctor excusing you from the vaccine, consider yourself unemployed.
I'm so fed up with these people. These anti-vaxxers honestly should pay all the health-care costs of their hospitalization, or be denied hospital treatment altogether. What an embarrassment.
OK, so your coworker died and you had to shut down the entire department and stay home. Actions/consequences, I guess.
Next up, the whole "anti-vaxxer" vs. "pro-vaxxers" both got sick. Kind of negates your first argument. From the way you word your argument, it looks like there are two different groups of people. From your testimony, caccinated people get sick too, and if they did something that you don't agree with (like helping those that are sick with COVID), should they die too?
Finally, denying hospital treatment... there was a series of MTV movies entitled as another name for a donkey, and since they're doing what society calls idiotic things, do they get denied in the emergency room as well?
Your illogic boils down to, "I don't like what you do, and you should die after being fired." Maybe a job in selling greeting cards is in the offing.
Lastly, and this is a story about a less toxic subject: A high risk pregnancy (and I think we can all agree on the outcome, so please read, and I am treading lightly on this):
My sister in law had a high risk pregnancy, where the placenta attached near the Fallopian tubes, and when discovered, she was advised to terminate the pregnancy. She and her husband decided not to, and that required her to be flown from Montana to Seattle to be checked in to UW Hospital. She was continually advised to terminate the pregnancy, as if things ruptured, she would bleed out in 2 minutes. She had a port put in her arm as a precaution. When asked the final time, she said, "Listen, I want you to stop asking me about terminating the pregnancy. You will get one of two outcomes. The first is that I'll die, and you can use my body to figure out what went wrong, and the second is that we'll have the baby, and you can use everything you've learned to help others in this condition." She had a C-Section at 30 weeks (2 weeks later), as well as a hysterectomy (too much damage to her uterus).
My niece, who I saw last week is a 7 year old bundle of love, her mother is doing well, and UW has a wealth of knowledge of how to handle women who have high risk pregnancies of this type.
The point of this story is that life is complex, and there are a number of things that are not known by the spectating (and commenting) crowd, and flushing a whole group of people down the drain because you don't agree with them is a bit, well, harsh. Remember: what ever you do, at least 90% of the people in the world will find fault.
I am tired of this BS of either woeful or willful ignorance. Probabilities are real. Everything is not 50/50 he-said-she-said. The vaccine is not a magic video game armor that makes people 100% assured of protection. It significantly increases the probability of protection. The idiots refusing vaccination have a much higher probability of infection and are rapidly becoming prolific disease vectors, catching Delta Covid in large numbers and greatly increasing the likelihood that even the vaccinated people around them will become exposed. Some of those exposed vaccinated people will get the virus, though far fewer than those who are not vaccinated. Some of those will also get sick, but vastly fewer than those who were unvaccinated. A few will even die, but astronomically fewer than those who are not vaccinated.
Pretending that getting vaccinated makes no difference because some vaccinated people also get it is being ignorant of probabilities and is just profoundly dumb. If everyone who was eligible got the vaccine, transmission rates of even the Delta variant would be much, much lower right now, to the point it likely wouldn't even be much discussed. Instead, people jacked up on their politics are ignoring probabilities, dismissing incontrovertible medical evidence, refusing vaccines backed by all that, but taking horse dewormer after they get sick because somebody on the internet said it works. People are dying in large numbers because of all this. I am tired of catering to the willfully ignorant, worrying that being too harsh will put them off. The hell with that. Act like a responsible adult member of civilization and get the damn vaccine.
I somewhat disagree with what you are saying. With the Delta variant, it's spreading just as much between unvaccinated and vaccinated people. Most of the studies you see in the media have been done before Delta. The few that are coming out from places like Israel are showing Delta is capable of very high infection rates among those who are vaccinated. When Israel has 80% of its adult population vaccinated and the Delta wave there is bad, that tells you being vaccinated might not curb the spread of the virus as much as we originally thought. Data from other countries that has been trickling out is proving that as well. Having said that, I don't think people should be using infection rates as a debate on whether or not they should or shouldn't take the vaccine. The whole point of vaccines is to protect you from severe sickness, hospitalization, and death. That alone should be enough for people to get vaccinated. If an anti-vaxxer wants to argue infection rates, the best response is to use the hospitalization and death rates of those who aren't vaccinated compared to those who are.
Thank you for those links. The WP article kind of proves the point I was making. It says the uptick in cases are in vaccinated people. This is also from the article: "In other words, the delta variant means the virus will probably continue to spread, even among vaccinated people and even in a strongly vaccinated country such as Israel, because the vaccines don’t protect from transmission or symptomatic cases nearly as well."
I'm not a vaccine skeptic, but the data is showing, even in the link you sent, the vaccines don't protect against the spread as well as we would like when it comes to the delta variant. That's no reason to not get the vaccine though. The whole point I was making in my other post is the only data that should matter are the rates of serious infection, hospitalizations, and death.
Comments
Another big factor for an employer: Hospitalization is extremely expensive, and employees' health expenditures directly affect negotiations with the employer's health insurance provider. The vaccine has a very good effect at preventing serious illness and hospitalization, so that alone would be a good reason to require it. Finally, because unvaccinated employees are more likely to have serious illness, they're also more likely to miss long periods of work because they're sick with covid.
Overall, employers aren't running a charity. They're trying to make money, which is more difficult with more sick employees spending health insurance dollars and sick leave time.
A former classmate tried to BS the school where he teaches with a religious exemption argument. He threatened to resign and get his church and pols involved. In the end he got vaccinated as the pols and many of his fellow church members back vaccinations. And I guess the thought of not having a paycheck was a great spiritual awakening.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/07/19/vaccine-skeptics-zero-israel-again-some-reason/
Also, booster program in Israel appears to be reversing the (smaller) spike.
First, dws-2 is right according to CDC. Vaccinated people are less likely to get the virus. If they get it, less likely to get symptoms. If they get symptoms, less likely to require hospitalisation, etc.. And, crucially, they appear to be infectious for shorter time.
It depends on what you mean by “more likely.” More likely THAN what?
More likely to spread the virus, THAN the unvaccinated. —NO
A good starting point for the lay person (like me):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_v._Bell
The venerated Oliver Wendell Holmes wrote the decision upholding the Virginia law that ended a woman's right to be a mother, by saying it was no different than vaccination:
At the Nuremberg trials, Nazi doctors literally cited Buck v. Bell in their own defense. this should make everyone sick.
Buck v. Bell has never been officially overturned. In 1978, however, one victim of forced sterilization sued the State of Oklahoma before the Supreme Court, and won. The decision resulting from Skinner v. Oklahoma created legal obstacles that effectively put a stop to mass compulsory sterilization.
Everyone in government know about these cases and they know they will go afoul of the law that prevents them from mandating anything medical.
Here is good summary but does not lay out a case in either direction, https://www.history.com/news/smallpox-vaccine-supreme-court
Our government know they can not absolutely mandate, however, they are making it very hard for businesses to operating unless they mandate vaccination. Case are already making their ways through the court it going to take years but most likely Companies will also run up against the same laws and rights as the government. Notice no one in the media is talking about this and why the government is not mandating. Becuase they do not want you know you have legal rights to do what is in your best interest.
For those who think it is your right to tell others what to do, think again, you have no such right. nether does the government. However, you are free to do what you want to protect yourself and you are free not to associate with people you do not agree with. In this case if you feel you are at risk, then get vaccinated and if you do not think that is enough wear the mask or the whole hazmat suit. Nothing I or anyone else is doing is interfering with your ability to protect yourself.
Also companies may run afoul under HIPPA, they are not allow to ask anyone about their medial affairs, thus all these volunteer requirements, which are not really volunteer since they are holding your job over your head, most likely will not pass scrutiny once legally challenged. Much of this is on shaky legal ground and the government is hoping it does not go to the Supreme Court to set precedence they do not like, but than again they have not be the smart about it
It will not stop this current government from ignoring the laws of this land and your personal rights they did it with the rent eviction moratorium. They knew they had no legal ground to stop people from being evicted from property they do not own. But government went ahead and did it anyway, Supreme court set them straight, but they again tried to extend the illegal mandate and got told again to stop. This government is only interest in see what they take away from your verse preserving what is rightfully yours.
We will never return a zero covid state, and vaccine even as good they are today will never get us to zero by the mere fact even people who have been vaccinated are still get sick.
Right now the data from various research being done show those who have been previous infected have far better immunity against the variant than the vacation alone.
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.01.21258176v2
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/295712
The Delta variant study in Israel
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/309762
Israel is one of the few actually tracking the vaccine and cases and its real world effectiveness, they stuck a deal with Pfizer to collect all this information and provide it to Pfizer. To your comment about the so called experts and people not listening to the experts. Many lost creditability because people are able to see for themselves what is happen and it not matching the statements of the experts. When you have expert challenge the fact that the human immune system are not as good a vaccines you have to question what they are thinking. Also many experts are not speaking out due to the fear of losing their jobs. There is very little debate going on around the data or what is actually happening. Most of the data they are using to say this is what needs to happen is base on model not real world data, becuase real world data is very messy and evey human is different. Model should not be used to guide decision when you have real world date, but they keep follow back to the models.
I'll give you my personal experience, myself, wife and son all had chickenpox as children, my daughter was born during the time of the chickenpox vax, she got it (will not go through the decision process) she is now 24 and entering the heath field, thus required to be check for immunities such as chickenpox, 4 yrs ago she still had the immunity last years test no immunity (they tested twice to be sure) she got booster last year, got tested again this year as required, again no immunity, tested twice. Again got another booster and was told if she tests negative again next year she will be required to do the 3 shoot regiment. We are being told she will most likely be required to revaccinate every so many years from this point forward. Getting chickenpox as an adult is far worse than as kid and you better hope not to get while pregnant. My wife an I both get our immunities tested every few years and we still have our immunity to chickenpox to the point now my Dr is saying I should get the shingle vaccine since the pox virus my still active in my system.
I tell people to question everything they are told and see if it make sense and consistent with what we already know.
The protection of the vaccines from getting sick from Delta ranges anywhere from a low of about 35% (in other words, about 1/3, which is if three unvaccinated people get sick, then two vaccinated people get sick under the same conditions) to a high of about 80%. The range might be because of the differences in the populations being tested and the time since vaccination. For example, in Israel, the number is around 35%, maybe because it has been a long time since initial vaccination. In England, the protection is much better, maybe because they spaced out their shots more widely, and the time since people's second shot is much shorter.
What is confusing is that the CDC, until recently, was combining numbers from Delta and non-Delta covid, which incorrectly made the protection from the vaccine seem higher than it is. In general, the CDC has done a bad job of monitoring and updating when new information becomes available. They have also been really bad at communicating, making absolute statements one day, then changing it the next day. This is a fast changing situation, and communication should be clear about that uncertainty rather than state everything as a fact.
Also, HIPPA is not a thing. HIPAA refers to the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996. Unless you are part of a healthcare entity, the private protections in HIPAA do not apply. HIPAA does not prevent your employer from asking if you are vaccinated, including asking for proof of it. Even if you are part of a healthcare entity, there are exemptions to restrictions on disclosure of health information as it relates to a public health crisis.
I am tired of BS misinformation being spread on this subject. This misinformation is killing people.
The CDC's communications as you mentioned here are plagued by a catch-22. If they state something unequivocally, but new information or actual changes in what's going on then changes the message, their prior assertiveness is used by idiots as "examples" of why they're not to believed. For example, at the beginning of the pandemic there was an acute shortage of PPE. The recommendation at that time was for the public not to rush out and get masks because healthcare workers had a more immediate need to access the limited supply. As PPE supplies caught up and new data on transmissibility became available, the recommendation changed to telling the public to wear masks. To this day, idiots use that change in recommendation as "proof" the CDC can't be trusted.
One the flip side, whenever things are communicated to explain probabilities as a factor in what's recommended, idiots fail to understand probabilities or purposefully distort or ignore them, in order to "refute" recommendations. You can look upthread to see plenty of examples of that BS.
"In other words, the delta variant means the virus will probably continue to spread, even among vaccinated people and even in a strongly vaccinated country such as Israel, because the vaccines don’t protect from transmission or symptomatic cases nearly as well."
I'm not a vaccine skeptic, but the data is showing, even in the link you sent, the vaccines don't protect against the spread as well as we would like when it comes to the delta variant. That's no reason to not get the vaccine though. The whole point I was making in my other post is the only data that should matter are the rates of serious infection, hospitalizations, and death.