Germany wants Apple to offer iPhone updates and parts for 7 years

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 60
    Does this apply to all other top selling devices other than Apple? Or is it just directed at Apple? Or automobiles?
    edited September 4
  • Reply 22 of 60
    ivanh said:
    Not only updates, but also equal level and priority of services.  No planned obsolescence. No discrimination of older devices to access of services. Other nations in the world should follow Germany.

    That would mean no new CPU chips or GPU chips. And real fun with Windows 10 vs 11 and can you say TPM. And no new WIFI or cell phone standards.
    baconstangFidonet127watto_cobra
  • Reply 23 of 60
    While Germany wants the Commission to be tougher, vendors want the opposite. DigitalEurope, which includes Apple as a member alongside Google and Samsung, are instead pushing for three years of security updates and two years for functional updates.
    Yes I'm sure they only want  couple of years. But if those same corporations and individuals who also go on and on about climate change, they have no integrity.

  • Reply 24 of 60
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 5,936member
    This is a proposal from people whom do not understand consumer electronics or economics.   Who in the world would want to repair a 7, 6 or even 5 year old phone or tablet?  The repair cost would exceed the device value or at best be a wash.  Typical European government wanting to interfere with the free market - the nanny state always goes too far.   Do these “geniuses” ever think that maybe one could buy a used 6 year old phone or tablet for a lot less than it would take to repair the same device.  This is a brain dead proposal from the Germans.  
    These proposals are part of a wider package of measures to try and correct the current situation. The free market will continue as it is but it is possible that changes may be made in areas such as repirability and design with more shared components across more models. User habits may change too.

    Given that most smartphones require 'activation' to even work (although that could change, too) manufacturers have never had it so easy to maintain viable levels of component stocks for models in active circulation.

    For many appliances there are manufacturer commitments to things like 10 year availability of spare parts and even some companies that promise 25 year availability. 

    Seen as a consumer protection, it makes a lot of sense. Obviously, some companies pushing in the other direction shows us what they would prefer too. I think I'll opt for consumer protection in most cases. 

    It's still too early to know what the exact final proposal will be. 

    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 25 of 60
    rcfarcfa Posts: 1,113member
    ivanh said:
    Not only updates, but also equal level and priority of services.  No planned obsolescence. No discrimination of older devices to access of services. Other nations in the world should follow Germany.
    There are features in hardware in newer chips than the A9 that Apple uses, and aren't available in the iPhone 6. So you're suggesting that these features not happen, because they can't be implemented in the iPhone 6?

    JFC_PA hit the nail on the head.

    What you want with feature parity is never going to happen. You're confusing the march of technology with "planned obsolescence" which you apply thickly whenever something happens that you don't like.


    Access to dotMac nee moblieMe nee iCloud wasn’t a matter of hardware functionality, but of iOS versions, where access to new cloud services wasn’t back-ported to old versions of iOS, nor were new versions of the OS brought to older hardware.

    Similar issues are regularly introduced, like the tagging functionality in Notes in the latest iOS version, which will break compatibility with any device that can’t be upgraded. So you either have to hold back all your devices, or toss some old ones which otherwise would be working just fine.
    baconstangwatto_cobra
  • Reply 26 of 60
    rcfarcfa Posts: 1,113member
    killroy said:
    ivanh said:
    Not only updates, but also equal level and priority of services.  No planned obsolescence. No discrimination of older devices to access of services. Other nations in the world should follow Germany.

    That would mean no new CPU chips or GPU chips. And real fun with Windows 10 vs 11 and can you say TPM. And no new WIFI or cell phone standards.
    Utter nonsense. It’s not a question of feature parity, it’s a question of not being locked out of cloud services or repairs. My iPhone SE (original) and iPhone 6s are doing just fine; and they’re going to do just fine with another round of iOS upgrades.

    So there’s literally NOTHING that stands in the way.
    And if Apple figures particular new features overtax old hardware, they can simply backport iCloud related functionality to older versions of iOS: as long as service and cloud data remain compatible, and devices are repairable, that’s all that matters.
    MisterKit
  • Reply 27 of 60
    rcfarcfa Posts: 1,113member
    Well at least this idea isn’t as bad as the third party App Store idea, where you would have viruses and and bad apps harming consumers. Because without the Walled Garden, how could Apple differentiate themselves from Android Devices. Android phones already look just like iPhones and Apple can’t do anything about it. 
    The third party AppStore isn’t just not a bad idea, but a necessity.

    First, such AppStores “would have viruses and bad apps harming consumers” just as little as the Mac.

    Second, instead of doing CSAM scanning, Apple could scan apps, regardless of origin, for malware.

    Third, while Apple obviously has the right to decide what kind of apps it wants to sell in an Apple-branded AppStore, it doesn’t have the right to decide what kind of apps owners of a device may run on a device which they bought and own. Sony can decide which movies to produce in Sony-owned movie studios, but they don’t get to decide what movies or videos you’re allowed to watch on a Sony branded TV.

    In the end, it’s all posturing and nonsense: the jail isn’t about security (what kind of security is based on users having to blindly trust a vendor without ability to control what’s actually happening?), but about enforcement of money grubbing schemes of carriers and Apple: enforcement of AppStore revenue schemes, enforcement of not being able to use one’s mobile data plan’s data contingent for tethering (which for no good reason carries an extra price tag with some carriers), etc.

    Whoever believes that blocking users from exercising control over a device they own has anything to do with security, is utterly brainwashed.
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 28 of 60
    ivanhivanh Posts: 597member
    ivanh said:
    Not only updates, but also equal level and priority of services.  No planned obsolescence. No discrimination of older devices to access of services. Other nations in the world should follow Germany.
    There are features in hardware in newer chips than the A9 that Apple uses, and aren't available in the iPhone 6. So you're suggesting that these features not happen, because they can't be implemented in the iPhone 6?

    JFC_PA hit the nail on the head.

    What you want with feature parity is never going to happen. You're confusing the march of technology with "planned obsolescence" which you apply thickly whenever something happens that you don't like.


    Don’t forget that many newer features are already not available to older devices. E.g. Location services are not available to MacBook Pro 2011.  Besides, how come a few weeks before every new hardware /replacement devices/OS is coming up, the older device would run slower or even not working. e.g. Apple Watch series 2 / Nike watch don’t have weather info, sun rise, sunset since it’s not watchOS upgradable. 
    You buy ONLY the hardware, but Apple “give” you to use their software at their mercy? Are we slave?
  • Reply 29 of 60
    rcfa said:
    killroy said:
    ivanh said:
    Not only updates, but also equal level and priority of services.  No planned obsolescence. No discrimination of older devices to access of services. Other nations in the world should follow Germany.

    That would mean no new CPU chips or GPU chips. And real fun with Windows 10 vs 11 and can you say TPM. And no new WIFI or cell phone standards.
    Utter nonsense. It’s not a question of feature parity, it’s a question of not being locked out of cloud services or repairs. My iPhone SE (original) and iPhone 6s are doing just fine; and they’re going to do just fine with another round of iOS upgrades.

    So there’s literally NOTHING that stands in the way.
    And if Apple figures particular new features overtax old hardware, they can simply backport iCloud related functionality to older versions of iOS: as long as service and cloud data remain compatible, and devices are repairable, that’s all that matters.

    Back port maybe, but will they. Remember the battery drain new updates caused. And how that hit the fan
  • Reply 30 of 60
    Overall I see nothing wrong in this proposal provided it applies equally to all electronic products... Smart TVs and the like included. Security updates should be made available for long after a product is sold and 5 years should be the minimum. If the security updates require a new OS update to take place then it is up to the manufacturers to make sure that such their strategy for meeting the requirement doesn't adversely impair the usability of their products. Many point to Apple's "battery-gate" saga, but slowing a phone down to provide new capabilities or even not providing them to retain existing capabilities upon upgrade is justifiable "provided it is advised and can be overridden by the end user should they choose to accept the consequences of their actions". In my mind this doesn't equate to "planned obsolescence" it the consequence of not having the latest hardware and has been the case since computers became consumer products.

    As for feature parity in updates I don't believe there is anything that requires this to be the case even in the car manufacturer market which is why companies like Tesla, BMW, Mercedes, etc can sell the same product and then unlock extra features with a paid for software update. To draw a parallel, apps sold on the App Stores do this kind of thing ALL OF THE TIME under the banner of subscriptions or in-app purchases after all.

    When you buy an electronic product you buy the hardware and it is the longevity of the hardware that is being legislated for here. It just so happens that the hardware can be compromised by software security issues which is the legislative vector of imposing such requirements. From my point of view this is a good thing that in no way restricts innovation but puts some of the onus on manufacturers to take responsibility for the products they produce and profit from.
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 31 of 60
    I just bought an iPhone 6s Plus for 100 euro with a new battery included to play around. It was discontinued in September 2016. It is currently running iOS 15 beta. I’m amazed at the speed and completeness of this thin and large phone. Not yet 7 years old but getting there. Pictures are less good of course than from my iPhone 11 Pro. It’s a great phone. 
    dewmeMisterKitDogpersonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 32 of 60
    crowleycrowley Posts: 8,906member
    This is a proposal from people whom do not understand consumer electronics or economics.   Who in the world would want to repair a 7, 6 or even 5 year old phone or tablet?  The repair cost would exceed the device value or at best be a wash.  Typical European government wanting to interfere with the free market - the nanny state always goes too far.   Do these “geniuses” ever think that maybe one could buy a used 6 year old phone or tablet for a lot less than it would take to repair the same device.  This is a brain dead proposal from the Germans.  
    Nothing about the proposal would prevent you from buying a new device, it just guarantees the option of a repair.  Some who don't want to change devices, or go through a migration might appreciate it.
  • Reply 33 of 60
    I would question the 7 year time frame rather than the proposal itself.

    Smart phones remain a developing market although it is starting to mature.   The analogy might be the PC of the early 2000's.   A 7 year old PC might still work, but it would be pretty much worthless -- too small & too slow & too limited to do much in the way of productive work.

    Maybe the proposal could be improved by shortening the time frame to, say, 4 or 5 years and gradually increasing it to 7 over the next decade.  That would allow the smart phone market to better mature and stabilize -- just as the PC market has.
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 34 of 60
    dewmedewme Posts: 3,897member
    This will likely drive prices of new devices way up because the manufacturer will have to stockpile spare parts as part of the production runs. Military system procurements typically have similar provisions for spare parts and it’s one of the contributors to the acquisition and lifetime costs of these systems being so expensive. All of these parts need to be stored and maintained in an inventory management system. The folks who make automated warehouses will be absolutely thrilled at the prospect of these proposals spreading worldwide.

    From a pragmatic standpoint, i.e., volume of landfill required for disposal for my personal e-waste, putting tight restrictions of smartphones makes little sense. The average service life of a standard refrigerator is 14 years. I’d bet you that I could fit many more than 14 dead iPhones and their chargers and cables in a standard sized dead refrigerator. 

    I wonder what’s really behind these heavy handed incursions by politicians into the inner workings of the tech world. I realize that smartphones have become a de facto appendage for a large percentage of the population so they get a ton of attention. These devices even include all of the mechanisms needed to complain about their shortcomings, like phone, text, email, and access social media. Has there ever been a product that includes its own built-in complaints department?

    I also think there is a move afoot by politicians/power brokers to put the tech companies “in their place.” The power balance is badly askew from the political perspective. The people who see themselves as the holders of authority and power want what they view as their rightful place in maintaining the herd back under their control. They want to control both the message and the messenger, and the tech companies have, in their minds, been playing too fast and loose with allowing other messengers to exist.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 35 of 60
    Well at least this idea isn’t as bad as the third party App Store idea, where you would have viruses and and bad apps harming consumers. Because without the Walled Garden, how could Apple differentiate themselves from Android Devices. Android phones already look just like iPhones and Apple can’t do anything about it. 
    Yeah sure, having the choice to install an App Apple wouldn't allow in their Appstore from another source is hurting customers badly. Like it does on the Mac. Oh the horrors. I really would want Apple to control each and every detail of my life! /s
    If that's you, just don't use an alternative App store. It's that simple. 
  • Reply 36 of 60
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 17,721member
    My first thought was that I think it’s overreach to mandate this.  But it’s Germany and the EU, so I’m not surprised.  The thing that made me laugh is the proposed rule requiring parts to arrive in 5 days.  This is what big government does.  Instead of reasonable rules and letting the free market sort most of it out, they pass Byzantine regs that don’t benefit anyone and make everything more expensive.  This would be like my state requiring 2-3 day shipping on retail products over $100 (or along those lines).  

    When it comes to obsolescence and even right to repair, the market generally does a better job fixing this than government.  Apple products, for example, would not be as popular as they are if they didn’t last as long as they do.  When Apple institutes dumb controversial or dumb policy, they hear about it and often change (see: CSAM).  
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 37 of 60
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 5,936member
    dewme said:
    This will likely drive prices of new devices way up because the manufacturer will have to stockpile spare parts as part of the production runs. Military system procurements typically have similar provisions for spare parts and it’s one of the contributors to the acquisition and lifetime costs of these systems being so expensive. All of thetemese parts need to be stored and maintained in an inventory management system. The folks who make automated warehouses will be absolutely thrilled at the prospect of these proposals spreading worldwide.

    From a pragmatic standpoint, i.e., volume of landfill required for disposal for my personal e-waste, putting tight restrictions of smartphones makes little sense. The average service life of a standard refrigerator is 14 years. I’d bet you that I could fit many more than 14 dead iPhones and their chargers and cables in a standard sized dead refrigerator. 

    I wonder what’s really behind these heavy handed incursions by politicians into the inner workings of the tech world. I realize that smartphones have become a de facto appendage for a large percentage of the population so they get a ton of attention. These devices even include all of the mechanisms needed to complain about their shortcomings, like phone, text, email, and access social media. Has there ever been a product that includes its own built-in complaints department?

    I also think there is a move afoot by politicians/power brokers to put the tech companies “in their place.” The power balance is badly askew from the political perspective. The people who see themselves as the holders of authority and power want what they view as their rightful place in maintaining the herd back under their control. They want to control both the message and the messenger, and the tech companies have, in their minds, been playing too fast and loose with allowing other messengers to exist.
    Remember that in the EU absolutely no e-waste should go to landfill.

    It is technically illegal in my part of the world to dump e-waste in a landfill container. 

    Whenever you purchase any type of electrical appliance you can hand over your old appliance without charge. 

    In fact, the cost of recycling or safe disposal is already included (and has been for many years now) in the price of consumer electrical and electronic goods sold in the EU. 

    To give my 'out in the sticks' location as an example, we have bins for plastics/metals, paper, glass, landfill, oil, organic waste and clothes. There are bins in all pharmacies for expired or unwanted medication. 

    There is an out-of-town triage plant for basically anything that doesn't have a bin for it. There is a mobile trailer once a week for people without transport options plus 'micro' triage stations built into advertising stands on the street for batteries, phones etc. 

    An example of a micro station:

    https://www.blipvert.es/en/minipuntos-limpos-de-marin-nueve-anos-reciclando-la-otra-basura/

    For voluminous items like furniture, mattresses, hedge/garden cuttings etc you simply call the local council, they will give you a date to take your waste down into the street and within hours someone will come to take it away. There is no charge. 

    Component logistics has not been an issue for many years. As I said before, some companies have had long term commitments to component availability and repairability for years. 

    https://www.rowenta.com/repairability-page

    And although not an electrical supplier, Geberit has had its 25 year parts availability commitment for as long as I can remember

    https://www.geberit.co.uk/services/product-warranty/

    Amazon has taken logistics to a new level and aren't alone. 5G will take the entire field of distribution to yet another level. 

    I can get replacement O-rings for my Grohe shower unit literally made to order and shipped to me. Zero storage. 

    Now Amazon has 'bag' return points where you can package a return in a simple bag (no box) to increase the amount of product that can be returned in a van as well as cut down on paper waste. 

    Where there is a will, there is a way even if the will comes from regulatory pressure. 



    edited September 5 muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 38 of 60
    igorsky said:
    F**k off, Germany. How about all German car companies start offering 7 year warranties?
    And this has what to do with phones? Or did you just need some attention? Asking for a friend. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 39 of 60
    This is a proposal from people whom do not understand consumer electronics or economics.   Who in the world would want to repair a 7, 6 or even 5 year old phone or tablet?  The repair cost would exceed the device value or at best be a wash.  Typical European government wanting to interfere with the free market - the nanny state always goes too far.   Do these “geniuses” ever think that maybe one could buy a used 6 year old phone or tablet for a lot less than it would take to repair the same device.  This is a brain dead proposal from the Germans.  
    Well, half the point here is that the parts should be offered at a reasonable price.

    Believe it or not but there are lots of "less fortunate" people in europe, AND the US, who would prefer to spend $50 repairing their current device over spending $100 on a similar device.

    I get your point, but I also get the germans. I'm sure it'll benefit everyone in the end.
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 40 of 60
    In this case, bad news for Apple is actually good news for Apple because it's worse news for other phone makers. However I don't expect this to cause Apple's stock to rise because Germany is such a small nation with no influence. (It has less than 1% of the world's population.)
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