Apple fires employee who spoke out on workplace issues, cites alleged leak

2

Comments

  • Reply 21 of 56
    DAalsethDAalseth Posts: 2,783member
    I like Apple’s products.
    But I’m liking Apple less and less. 
    MplsPelijahgwilliamlondonblastdoorronncrowley
  • Reply 22 of 56
    ClassicGeekClassicGeek Posts: 25unconfirmed, member
    There is a difference between accountability, both self accountability and accountability to your manager, and being micromanaged. I do work in Applecare and yes there are rules and expectations. Personally I have never gotten more than a chat inquiry if a call or after call time has gone "long". Does Apple do some "odd" corporate things, yes. But some of the odd is positive as well as some negative. Thats job life. 

    Are there things I'd like to see improved that directly benefit me? Sure. But my more important corporate citizen responsibility is to improve my company, in this case Apple. I can't judge Ashley for her work at Apple. Nor can I say if her termination was justified or not. But I can and do support her and others efforts to make Apple better, even though I use different means. 
    DAalsethelijahgravnorodomapplguyronnsteven n.
  • Reply 23 of 56
    jcs2305jcs2305 Posts: 1,336member
    genovelle said:
    welshdog said:
    s.metcalf said:
    What she describes sounds (unfortunately) typical of most corporates and is very believable.  I can imagine working for an employer that has such a comprehensive—even overwhelming—employee monitoring capability, and an internal crack squadron of “ threat officers” (the so-called Apple Police) would be stressful, even without employer problems.  You’d want to consider that when negotiating a salary with Apple, that’s for sure.

    Not convinced airing your grievances on Twitter is the right approach, however.
    I worked for Apple a total of 5 weeks as an iOS At Home Advisor (phone tech support). Four weeks of that was training which was great. The actual work was too stressful and I had to quit. One factor was the shocking amount of monitoring they did on me while I worked. One time after a call, I was doing the cleanup (notes etc.) and I heard a voice calling my name. A window opened on my iMac and my manager appeared wanting to know why I was taking so long. I was not used to that sort of oversight. Every employer I had ever had in my life gave me the responsibility to get the work done without someone standing over me. There were a lot of rules including shutting off the iMac  when done working and not using it for anything until the next shift. Even if it was related to my work, like checking my schedule for example, was not allowed. Plus then there was this whole complex system of demerits you got for being late, or going to a doctor's appointment or anything else related to life in general. None of this is unique to Apple of course, but it is alien to me. At age 64 and retired, I do feel very sorry for people stuck in this sort or corporate gulag. I could not do it and won't even entertain the thought of working for a large corporation ever again.
    You certainly have a lot to say after one whole week on the job. I've used Apple support for nearly 3 decades and without exception, all support personnel spent however much time was necessary (sometimes days!) to resolve my issue. During this time it wasn't unusual for me to have casual conversation with them. Given how many of them sincerely loved their job at Apple (many of whom had worked there for ages), I have to wonder about this one-week-wonder.
    I literally called them last week and was on the phone for a good while resolving an issue. Parts of the conversation was about hurricane Ida that had just hit us and there was no sense she was on the clock. At all. 
    Wow it's amazing how far you two are going to defend Apple and discredit the OP.  OP never said anything about having to rush his call, he said the after call notation was when he was asked why he was taking so long. Which is typical of call center work and the insane amount of micromanaging that takes place.

    One time after a call, I was doing the cleanup (notes etc.) and I heard a voice calling my name. A window opened on my iMac and my manager appeared wanting to know why I was taking so long. I was not used to that sort of oversight.

    As far as engaging in small talk... Dead air is a no no in most customer service call center work. It is taught to make or engage in small talk so that the customer doesn't just sit and listen to silence.







    chemengin1williamlondonrossb2mattbookairronn
  • Reply 24 of 56
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    jcs2305 said:
    genovelle said:
    welshdog said:
    s.metcalf said:
    What she describes sounds (unfortunately) typical of most corporates and is very believable.  I can imagine working for an employer that has such a comprehensive—even overwhelming—employee monitoring capability, and an internal crack squadron of “ threat officers” (the so-called Apple Police) would be stressful, even without employer problems.  You’d want to consider that when negotiating a salary with Apple, that’s for sure.

    Not convinced airing your grievances on Twitter is the right approach, however.
    I worked for Apple a total of 5 weeks as an iOS At Home Advisor (phone tech support). Four weeks of that was training which was great. The actual work was too stressful and I had to quit. One factor was the shocking amount of monitoring they did on me while I worked. One time after a call, I was doing the cleanup (notes etc.) and I heard a voice calling my name. A window opened on my iMac and my manager appeared wanting to know why I was taking so long. I was not used to that sort of oversight. Every employer I had ever had in my life gave me the responsibility to get the work done without someone standing over me. There were a lot of rules including shutting off the iMac  when done working and not using it for anything until the next shift. Even if it was related to my work, like checking my schedule for example, was not allowed. Plus then there was this whole complex system of demerits you got for being late, or going to a doctor's appointment or anything else related to life in general. None of this is unique to Apple of course, but it is alien to me. At age 64 and retired, I do feel very sorry for people stuck in this sort or corporate gulag. I could not do it and won't even entertain the thought of working for a large corporation ever again.
    You certainly have a lot to say after one whole week on the job. I've used Apple support for nearly 3 decades and without exception, all support personnel spent however much time was necessary (sometimes days!) to resolve my issue. During this time it wasn't unusual for me to have casual conversation with them. Given how many of them sincerely loved their job at Apple (many of whom had worked there for ages), I have to wonder about this one-week-wonder.
    I literally called them last week and was on the phone for a good while resolving an issue. Parts of the conversation was about hurricane Ida that had just hit us and there was no sense she was on the clock. At all. 
    Wow it's amazing how far you two are going to defend Apple and discredit the OP.  OP never said anything about having to rush his call, he said the after call notation was when he was asked why he was taking so long. Which is typical of call center work and the insane amount of micromanaging that takes place.

    One time after a call, I was doing the cleanup (notes etc.) and I heard a voice calling my name. A window opened on my iMac and my manager appeared wanting to know why I was taking so long. I was not used to that sort of oversight.

    As far as engaging in small talk... Dead air is a no no in most customer service call center work. It is taught to make or engage in small talk so that the customer doesn't just sit and listen to silence. 
    No, no, no, you don't get it.  These guys are Apple fans on the internet.  Their superior Apple taste means that they intuit everything about every other person's situation, and can always smell when someone is making something up to make Apple look bad, which coincidentally is every time that someone is saying something that in any way makes Apple look at all bad.
    elijahgronnmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 25 of 56
    Ashley has had quite a year of having to confront and mount vigorous claims  against not only Apple, but also numerous claims concerning her apartment complex, due to potential toxic chemical exposure. In March, she suffered numerous, undiagnosable health issues and sought relief from her developer, the Irving Company, the City of Santa Clara, Northrupt Grumman and more. I believe she stated she suffers from PTSD as a result. She is also currently a law school student so she’s well equipped to mount vigorous defenses. Too bad her employment relationship has deteriorated. Here’s an article for the SF Bay Vu Ashley wrote in March (which started it all):  (I hope members of Apple Too will do a GoFundMe to benefit her expenses):
      https://t.co/i68rOWV0Wb
    This one special type of person, I was just about to ask if anyone wanted to take bets on what hazardous waste was in here officer she complained about. This person is looking to be sick. I am kind of surprised Apple was able to fire her since she could have claimed protection under ADA with her so called illnesses.

    I work with someone who was sick on and off over a period of years, they ran all kinds of test and could not find anything conclusive. The company took the issue serious enough they began to think it was an environmental issue with the build since she would take a leave and issue would clear up. The Company thought it what was known as sick build syndrome. They brought in lots of Occupational Health people who ran lots of test and did a survey of everyone in the building to see if anyone else was having any issues, 300 people worked in the build, no one but her was having issues, and they found nothing unusual with the building other than the CO levels were a bit elevated so they increase the outside air makeup in the HVAC system. After two years of this women being sick on and off she finally quit and all her issue went away. Eventually we all conclude it was stress from the job that was making her sick since the new job she had was way less stressful then we worked.

    Not saying Ashely has the same issue, but you have to think if she is the only one having issues and see all kinds of issues at the company you have to wonder. Apple is not a low stress place that is for sure.
    edited September 2021 williamlondon
  • Reply 26 of 56
    I don’t work for Apple, but I have an assigned laptop (working from home), and I signed an agreement not to use it for anything personal.  That’s trivial to adhere to, and it protects everyone, myself included.

    Based on her own narrative, she strikes me as more “taker” than “giver” (work is ideally a symbiotic relationship).  I can see how she might become too “expensive” from an employer/resource standpoint, when there are any number of aspiring applicants ready and waiting in the wings.
  • Reply 27 of 56
    MplsPMplsP Posts: 3,911member
    The comments seem to be divided between “Gjovik is an ungrateful, backstabbing incompetent bitch and Apple was right to fire her,” and “Apple needs to get a clue”

    I don’t know which side is accurate, but there is no shortage of reports coming out about the work environment at Apple, so it would seem plausible that at least part of her story is accurate. 

    For the people dismissing her claims, what are you basing this on, other than a general fondness of Apple? 
    chemengin1williamlondonmattbookairronnmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 28 of 56
    welshdog said:
    s.metcalf said:
    What she describes sounds (unfortunately) typical of most corporates and is very believable.  I can imagine working for an employer that has such a comprehensive—even overwhelming—employee monitoring capability, and an internal crack squadron of “ threat officers” (the so-called Apple Police) would be stressful, even without employer problems.  You’d want to consider that when negotiating a salary with Apple, that’s for sure.

    Not convinced airing your grievances on Twitter is the right approach, however.
    I worked for Apple a total of 5 weeks as an iOS At Home Advisor (phone tech support). Four weeks of that was training which was great. The actual work was too stressful and I had to quit. One factor was the shocking amount of monitoring they did on me while I worked. One time after a call, I was doing the cleanup (notes etc.) and I heard a voice calling my name. A window opened on my iMac and my manager appeared wanting to know why I was taking so long. I was not used to that sort of oversight. Every employer I had ever had in my life gave me the responsibility to get the work done without someone standing over me. There were a lot of rules including shutting off the iMac  when done working and not using it for anything until the next shift. Even if it was related to my work, like checking my schedule for example, was not allowed. Plus then there was this whole complex system of demerits you got for being late, or going to a doctor's appointment or anything else related to life in general. None of this is unique to Apple of course, but it is alien to me. At age 64 and retired, I do feel very sorry for people stuck in this sort or corporate gulag. I could not do it and won't even entertain the thought of working for a large corporation ever again.
    I would not disagree that tech support especially phone support is a thankless job, it rank right up there as being a order taker at McDonalds. With that said, these kind of jobs always have this kind of oversight especially in the very beginning. There is even a online tech support game you can play which simulate what you described. 

    https://store.steampowered.com/app/781480/Tech_Support_Error_Unknown/

    Yes you were lucky not to have to work in this kind of environment most of your life, but this is what happens to people who do not have skills who thought it was not worth their time to pay attention in school to make themself better than having to listen to peoples issues. Generally speaking, I petty good at trouble shooting my problem and if I had to call Apple or any company for help it was definitely an issue beyond my capabilities or knowledge. The problem is most people on the phone trying to help lack the skills and knowledge to solve the problem beyon following a trouble shooting script. I have frustrate my fair share of phone support people becuase do not want to through trouble shooting steps I already done, I just want to get to the higher level tech support/engineers who can do more then just tell me what it is not.
  • Reply 29 of 56
    red oak said:
    Good riddance.  She pulled this crap at every company she worked at prior to Apple.   She was with Apple for 2 years and half that time was out on disability.  She was a nightmare employee.   

    Good luck to her getting another job in tech.  $400k plus stock RSUs up in smoke - just like that



    Where was it posted it was $400K job?
  • Reply 30 of 56
    She’s an eternal victim narcissist know it all justice warrior.  Glad they fired her and any other know it all activist employee should be terminated too.  She had so many complaints and not just about her job but having PTSD and many other complaints outside of work that I would classify her as having Borderline Personality disorder.  Don’t let the door hit you on your way out!!
    ralphiewilliamlondonDBSyncsteven n.
  • Reply 31 of 56
    Ashley has had quite a year of having to confront and mount vigorous claims  against not only Apple, but also numerous claims concerning her apartment complex, due to potential toxic chemical exposure. In March, she suffered numerous, undiagnosable health issues and sought relief from her developer, the Irving Company, the City of Santa Clara, Northrupt Grumman and more. I believe she stated she suffers from PTSD as a result. She is also currently a law school student so she’s well equipped to mount vigorous defenses. Too bad her employment relationship has deteriorated. Here’s an article for the SF Bay Vu Ashley wrote in March (which started it all):  (I hope members of Apple Too will do a GoFundMe to benefit her expenses):
      https://t.co/i68rOWV0Wb
    That was all made up.  She is the only one in the apartment complex that has nosebleeds?  She has mental issues.  
    williamlondonDBSync
  • Reply 32 of 56
    This whole episode is a reflection on modern day America.
    Employees who think they should (and can) decide what the work place should be.
    It's the same as employees and citizens saying:  "Nobody can tell me what to do or not do -- especially not my government".

    It is a breakdown of society masquerading as freedom and independence.   The society that made America Great.

    At one point, employees who didn't like their working conditions enough to obstruct the company were gunned down.  And, if that didn't work then state and federal militias were brought in to restore "peace and stability".

    That was one extreme.  It seems that we are now bouncing off the the other wall.
    DBSyncmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 33 of 56
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 18,015member
    crowley said:
    If that account is accurate then jfc Apple.  I hope she has opportunity to take them to an employment tribunal because that is some shady manoeuvring.

    There is no such thing as an employment tribunal in the U.S.  The NLRB is mostly toothless.  She could sue for wrongful termination, but good luck fighting Apple Legal on that.  She was an At Will employee, and can/could be fired for almost any reason or no reason at all.  Labor law is much different here than it is overseas.  

    As for the moral dimension, I don't share your outrage (nor do several others, apparently...but that's neither here nor there).   I don't know the details, but this woman sounds like an employee who was a repeated pain in the ass, one who painted the company in a bad light.  She didn't want to be there, and Apple didn't want her there.  They most surely went through a process to fire her (admin leave, investigation, results).   Leaking details about internal iPhone surveillance would also certainly seem to fit the "leaking confidential information" charge.  

    Again, I don't know, but my read on it from 30,000 feet is that it was justified.  We'll see what comes out.  
    williamlondonGeorgeBMacDBSync
  • Reply 34 of 56
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 18,015member
    This whole episode is a reflection on modern day America.
    Employees who think they should (and can) decide what the work place should be.
    It's the same as employees and citizens saying:  "Nobody can tell me what to do or not do -- especially not my government".

    It is a breakdown of society masquerading as freedom and independence.   The society that made America Great.

    At one point, employees who didn't like their working conditions enough to obstruct the company were gunned down.  And, if that didn't work then state and federal militias were brought in to restore "peace and stability".

    That was one extreme.  It seems that we are now bouncing off the the other wall.

    Finally something from you I agree with.  
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 35 of 56
    Okay, reading more I see what is going on. Since she believes she has been poison by her apartment she also think Apple's building are affected as well. This is because she found that most of the silicon valley was used for agriculture for many years and lots of nasty chemical were sprayed on the land as well as stored inground tanks. Also add in the early days of semi conduction development and all the nasty chemical use to make them was not handled properly as well as the Military development the entire land in the valley is tainted. 

    This was requesting Apple to disclose what chemicals could be under the builds, and it sound like that did not go well and management seem not give her the time a day. She is obviously selectively sharing some of the communications she not show them all, she also is trying to get everything is writing and does not want any verbal conversation with Apple personnel, because as a lawyer in training she know verbal communication without witness can be denied.


  • Reply 36 of 56
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 18,015member
    larrya said:
    Ashley is about to become very wealthy.
    I find that extremely unlikely.  Apple undoubtedly followed a process that will, at the very least, withstand legal scrutiny.  Proving wrongful termination is nearly impossible without hard evidence of things like age, sex or racial discrimination.  She was an At Will employee, so she could be fired for nearly any reason.  She also allegedly publicly disclosed a confidential security tool, and obviously painted her employer in a bad light in public.  Either one is easily fireable.  She'll complain to the NLRB in the hopes of getting some more publicity.  Maybe she'll try to monetize her situation by creating some related movement.  More than likely though, she'll fade away in 15 minutes.  
    williamlondonDBSync
  • Reply 37 of 56
    This whole episode is a reflection on modern day America.
    Employees who think they should (and can) decide what the work place should be.
    It's the same as employees and citizens saying:  "Nobody can tell me what to do or not do -- especially not my government".

    It is a breakdown of society masquerading as freedom and independence.   The society that made America Great.

    At one point, employees who didn't like their working conditions enough to obstruct the company were gunned down.  And, if that didn't work then state and federal militias were brought in to restore "peace and stability".

    That was one extreme.  It seems that we are now bouncing off the the other wall.
    Actually, it the same group of people who think they have right to tell companies how to run their business are the same people tell people what they can and can not say and demanding the government to tell everyone what they can and can not do.

    The people who are saying you can not tell me what to do, is not in the above group. 

    As person who has work for a number of small to large high tech companies through my career and managed a department and see my fair share of people challenges. Also i watch companies go trough the good and bad times and watch how people respond to those changes. I can say at no time does an employee has any right to tell a company how to run its business. The only reason companies today are caving to these issues is the fact we have labor shortage lots of companies are fighting over the same group of workers and companies know it cost lots to replace someone. If companies need to act like they care about what employees think to keep the majority of them, the companies plays along. 

    Also you mention a time in our country when employee/company violence broke out, and this specifically happen in Pittsburgh where I grew up, I know the history well, my grandfather worked in those mills. This was different time when Companies owned everything even many of the homes the worker lived in and at the time in Pittsburgh the only industries was Steel related and Coal and there was only a couple companies who owned it all. Worker did not have choose, and they could not easily move to some where else and there was a constant influx of new labor from overseas. Today people have choose if you do not like one company go to another. However, in high tech many people are over paid for what the do and when they try to change because they do not like where they now work the find out they have take pay cut and they do not like that or they just go to another company with high expectation for the pay you are getting.
    steven n.
  • Reply 38 of 56
    [Apple] has not explained particulars of the situation.

    Oh, I think we know the particulars. They're likely completely within their rights to fire her, but I suspect they'll find that this will hardly make the problem go away.

    DBSync
  • Reply 39 of 56
    dewmedewme Posts: 5,332member
    welshdog said:
    s.metcalf said:
    What she describes sounds (unfortunately) typical of most corporates and is very believable.  I can imagine working for an employer that has such a comprehensive—even overwhelming—employee monitoring capability, and an internal crack squadron of “ threat officers” (the so-called Apple Police) would be stressful, even without employer problems.  You’d want to consider that when negotiating a salary with Apple, that’s for sure.

    Not convinced airing your grievances on Twitter is the right approach, however.
    I worked for Apple a total of 5 weeks as an iOS At Home Advisor (phone tech support). Four weeks of that was training which was great. The actual work was too stressful and I had to quit. One factor was the shocking amount of monitoring they did on me while I worked. One time after a call, I was doing the cleanup (notes etc.) and I heard a voice calling my name. A window opened on my iMac and my manager appeared wanting to know why I was taking so long. I was not used to that sort of oversight. Every employer I had ever had in my life gave me the responsibility to get the work done without someone standing over me. There were a lot of rules including shutting off the iMac  when done working and not using it for anything until the next shift. Even if it was related to my work, like checking my schedule for example, was not allowed. Plus then there was this whole complex system of demerits you got for being late, or going to a doctor's appointment or anything else related to life in general. None of this is unique to Apple of course, but it is alien to me. At age 64 and retired, I do feel very sorry for people stuck in this sort or corporate gulag. I could not do it and won't even entertain the thought of working for a large corporation ever again.
    What you’ve described is the best possible outcome for both you and the employer, i.e., Apple. You found out early on that you were not happy working under those conditions and Apple wasn’t left with an employee who wasn’t 100% engaged. I wish more folks on both sides of the employee-employer relationship were as honest as you were in recognizing that the relationship would never be mutually beneficial.

    I wouldn’t go as far as saying that every large company places the kind of stress you felt in that role. I do know that all of the large companies that I’ve worked for are extremely focused on optimizing the entire customer support engagement process to the point of tracking everything that is possible to track. I can see how it could be very intimidating to some. But I’ve also seen firsthand that some people are actually very good at doing those kind of jobs and thrive on achieving benchmarks that distinguish themselves and garner recognition not only by their bosses but by the customers they serve.

    I’ve been on both sides of the relationship, providing support and getting support, and I can tell you that as a customer, getting questions answered quickly and obtaining workarounds that help get a system back online with minimal downtime and minimal loss is something that gets your attention and a inspires you to express your gratitude forwarded to those who helped you in your time of need. You would be amazed at how motivating it can be for someone in a support role to get a “thank you” from someone they helped. That’s probably why they put up with the scrutiny, timers, monitoring, metrics, and what sometimes seems like micromanaging from supervisors. 
  • Reply 40 of 56
    DAalseth said:
    I like Apple’s products.
    But I’m liking Apple less and less. 
    Oh no, I'm going to dump all my shares now.
    ralphiefastasleep
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