Apple made secret 5-year $275B deal with Chinese government

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Comments

  • Reply 61 of 127
    Communists loving Communists. In other news, water is wet.
    harrywinter
  • Reply 62 of 127
    danoxdanox Posts: 722member
    crowley said:
    Worth $275bn to who?
    To Apple, Tim Cook is worth every million that Apple Pay’s him, he obliviously has read the Art of War……
    GeorgeBMacjony0
  • Reply 63 of 127
    k2kwk2kw Posts: 2,057member
    Let's see. Invest in training for workers to develop cutting edge production and supply chain technologies. Invest in transitioning suppliers to renewable and cleaner energy sources. Sounds like something the U.S. should be interested in but Apple's not in the Military/Oil/Coal/Pharma industries so U.S. Gov doesn't care.
    Sounds like treason to me
  • Reply 64 of 127
    radarthekatradarthekat Posts: 3,425moderator
    crowley said:
    Worth $275bn to who?
    Likely not unlike the deals commonly cut here in the US, where states offer incentives to companies riling to invest in creation of manufacturing and R&D centers in the state.  The incentives in this case were likely of the access-to-market variety rather than tax breaks or cash to the company.  And Apple likely Agreed to a bunch of things it would want to do regardless, like advance it’s suppliers toward renewable energy and more environmentally-sound manufacturing technologies.  Both initiatives China wants to advance and so does Apple.  That my take, anyway.  I could be wrong.  
    randominternetpersonGeorgeBMac
  • Reply 65 of 127
    radarthekatradarthekat Posts: 3,425moderator
    georgie01 said:
    Or Apple could have looked at the bigger picture rather than their own growth. Helping the Chinese Communist Party is not in the world’s interest.

    It always amazes me how complacent people in the US have become. We’ve had such tremendous success that we believe it’ll just keep being this good, and that we’ll always know who the bad people are because they have orange skin. That we can ignore the founders’ vision and ideals because we know so much better than they did even though we’ve had relatively zero hardships (in terms of tyrants and oppressive governments).

    At least more people are waking up to the reality of the threat from China (not the Chinese people necessarily, but the CCP).
    Would it be better to fold up shop and cede the smartphone market to the inferior Android universe, diminishing one of the most advanced US corporations?  Not sure that would help
    the US.  But it would be a brave, if foolish and horribly expensive, stand on principal.   
    argonautGeorgeBMacdaven
  • Reply 66 of 127
    georgie01 said:
    Or Apple could have looked at the bigger picture rather than their own growth. Helping the Chinese Communist Party is not in the world’s interest.

    It always amazes me how complacent people in the US have become. We’ve had such tremendous success that we believe it’ll just keep being this good, and that we’ll always know who the bad people are because they have orange skin. That we can ignore the founders’ vision and ideals because we know so much better than they did even though we’ve had relatively zero hardships (in terms of tyrants and oppressive governments).

    At least more people are waking up to the reality of the threat from China (not the Chinese people necessarily, but the CCP).
    Would it be better to fold up shop and cede the smartphone market to the inferior Android universe, diminishing one of the most advanced US corporations?  Not sure that would help
    the US.  But it would be a brave, if foolish and horribly expensive, stand on principal.   
    The world has been transitioning to the information age since Apple introduced Apple II. Apple led the industry with the iPhone in 2007. If Apple faltered, the only other American company making smartphone is Google. Could Google take over the job of Apple like US took over the work after UK withdraw from the leadership? The probability is slim. Maybe the smartphone innovation will crawl? 
  • Reply 67 of 127
    radarthekatradarthekat Posts: 3,425moderator
    georgie01 said:
    Or Apple could have looked at the bigger picture rather than their own growth. Helping the Chinese Communist Party is not in the world’s interest.

    It always amazes me how complacent people in the US have become. We’ve had such tremendous success that we believe it’ll just keep being this good, and that we’ll always know who the bad people are because they have orange skin. That we can ignore the founders’ vision and ideals because we know so much better than they did even though we’ve had relatively zero hardships (in terms of tyrants and oppressive governments).

    At least more people are waking up to the reality of the threat from China (not the Chinese people necessarily, but the CCP).
    Would it be better to fold up shop and cede the smartphone market to the inferior Android universe, diminishing one of the most advanced US corporations?  Not sure that would help
    the US.  But it would be a brave, if foolish and horribly expensive, stand on principal.   
    The world has been transitioning to the information age since Apple introduced Apple II. Apple led the industry with the iPhone in 2007. If Apple faltered, the only other American company making smartphone is Google. Could Google take over the job of Apple like US took over the work after UK withdraw from the leadership? The probability is slim. Maybe the smartphone innovation will crawl? 
    And America would lose a technological leader and source of jobs.  That’s what the knee-jerk reactionists don’t take into account.  
    edited December 2021 GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 68 of 127
    danoxdanox Posts: 722member
    flydog said:
    sdw2001 said:
    On one hand, I don't blame Apple for threading the needle with the CCP in order to get access to a market with 5 times the population of U.S.   But on the other, that's a lot of money and resources that are building Communist China instead of the United States.  China is a major competitor, biggest trade partner, and #1 threat to the U.S. all at the same time.  Their government's goal is to be the world superpower by 2050.  This was a long-term plan started in the 1970's.  We dismissed them for decades, thought we "free" trade could liberalize the CCP, and their military was subpar compared to ours.  All that has changed in the last 20 years.  While we still have a superior military, they have the capability to win a battle (for example, Taiwan) before we can respond with full force.  They also have sophisticated enough equipment (planes, missiles, anti-satellite etc.) to give us real problems.  







    Is there any actual evidence that China is a threat to the U.S. or that they intend to become the world's leading super (military) power -- or is it just more propaganda left over from the Trump era?

    We know how that operates:  repeat the lies enough times and they becomes the new alternative facts.
    That China routinely crosses into Taiwan’s ADIZ with nuclear numbers, builds military installations on manmade islands in international waters, and reneged on its promise to allow self rule in Hong Kong is not enough?
    Sherlock, China like the USA (with the red man) was never going to live up to that treaty…Nor will Australia, New Zealand or the Nordic countries with their natives peoples….
    radarthekat
  • Reply 69 of 127
    k2kw said:
    Let's see. Invest in training for workers to develop cutting edge production and supply chain technologies. Invest in transitioning suppliers to renewable and cleaner energy sources. Sounds like something the U.S. should be interested in but Apple's not in the Military/Oil/Coal/Pharma industries so U.S. Gov doesn't care.
    Sounds like treason to me
    Sounds like normal business practices to me. What company doesn’t invest in production and supply chain tech or in clean energy? Apple manufactures in China. Of course they want efficient state of the art manufacturing there. 

    And that 200-odd billion dollars?  Isn’t that just the total cost of producing hundreds of billions of dollars of products in that country?  Without details, nothing reported here is alarming or controversial. 
    XedargonautGeorgeBMac
  • Reply 70 of 127
    danoxdanox Posts: 722member
    Mondain said:
    darkvader said:
    This is consistent.
    China encourages and supports capitalistic ventures -- as long as they benefit China and its people -- and especially if they do not threaten the stability and growth of the country.

    It's a win-win strategy.
    in this case:
    Apple wins, China wins, and the Chinese people win -- and we win because we get great iPhones at prices we can afford.

    Actually, the whole world loses.  China is a fascist country, complete with concentration camps. Don't let them fool you, China is no more communist than Nazi Germany was socialist.  Crony capitalism like this is very typical of fascist governments, particularly when it helps their ethnic cleansing goals and land grabs.

    It's a lose-lose strategy.
    In this case:
    Apple loses (because long term the fascist government will capture everything Apple took there).  The Chinese people lose (because things like this help prop up the fascist government and build the surveillance state) -- and we lose because jobs for free people have instead been sent to a fascist country and we get iPhones that are still expensive while losing manufacturing capability.
    Both these positions are too extreme. This is a win for sure from a capitalist view, but terrible from a human rights perspective. However, comparing China to Nazi Germany is excessive. Most countries score poorly in having economic and social systems that reward merit. China is simply more obvious in how poorly it treats citizens. In America it is more subtle, as seen by the slowly disappearing American middle class.

    Maybe through these mega-deals Apple can help push China to embrace a more progressive system. 


    Not going happen they are a competitor nothing more nothing less….
    elijahgGeorgeBMac
  • Reply 71 of 127
    danoxdanox Posts: 722member
    k2kw said:
    Let's see. Invest in training for workers to develop cutting edge production and supply chain technologies. Invest in transitioning suppliers to renewable and cleaner energy sources. Sounds like something the U.S. should be interested in but Apple's not in the Military/Oil/Coal/Pharma industries so U.S. Gov doesn't care.
    Sounds like treason to me
    That would be Google the Asian companies wouldn’t be in the smartphone game after 2007 without Google’s Android OS gift…..

    Just wait for Oak Ridge, Tennessee to pop up in main stream news because of a Thorium Reactor (American tech that was discarded) now being tested in China.
    edited December 2021 radarthekatargonaut
  • Reply 72 of 127
    georgie01 said:
    Or Apple could have looked at the bigger picture rather than their own growth. Helping the Chinese Communist Party is not in the world’s interest.

    It always amazes me how complacent people in the US have become. We’ve had such tremendous success that we believe it’ll just keep being this good, and that we’ll always know who the bad people are because they have orange skin. That we can ignore the founders’ vision and ideals because we know so much better than they did even though we’ve had relatively zero hardships (in terms of tyrants and oppressive governments).

    At least more people are waking up to the reality of the threat from China (not the Chinese people necessarily, but the CCP).
    Would it be better to fold up shop and cede the smartphone market to the inferior Android universe, diminishing one of the most advanced US corporations?  Not sure that would help
    the US.  But it would be a brave, if foolish and horribly expensive, stand on principal.   
    And be able to look themselves in the mirror? Yes.
    Not every decision a company makes has to be about what would make it the most money in the near term.
    elijahgharrywinter
  • Reply 73 of 127
    crowleycrowley Posts: 9,338member
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    I wonder what happens if the deal is allowed to expire.

    Apple:  They lose their best manufacturing base, they one they've built their company on, as well as the second largest market in the world.

    China:  Their unemployment rate goes up by 0.1%
    Apple will become a mediocre company. The big high tech companies will be dominated by Google, Microsoft, Amazon, Metaverse. No more Apple. 
    Not sure why you think that a deal expiring means that China are suddenly boycotting Apple.
    If China haters have their will this will be the destiny of Apple. Apple almost went bankrupt in 1997 because it lost to the Wintel monopoly. 
    Maybe, but that's not the question I posed.
    harrywinter
  • Reply 74 of 127
    radarthekatradarthekat Posts: 3,425moderator
    georgie01 said:
    Or Apple could have looked at the bigger picture rather than their own growth. Helping the Chinese Communist Party is not in the world’s interest.

    It always amazes me how complacent people in the US have become. We’ve had such tremendous success that we believe it’ll just keep being this good, and that we’ll always know who the bad people are because they have orange skin. That we can ignore the founders’ vision and ideals because we know so much better than they did even though we’ve had relatively zero hardships (in terms of tyrants and oppressive governments).

    At least more people are waking up to the reality of the threat from China (not the Chinese people necessarily, but the CCP).
    Would it be better to fold up shop and cede the smartphone market to the inferior Android universe, diminishing one of the most advanced US corporations?  Not sure that would help
    the US.  But it would be a brave, if foolish and horribly expensive, stand on principal.   
    And be able to look themselves in the mirror? Yes.
    Not every decision a company makes has to be about what would make it the most money in the near term.
    Except that a further diminished America invites its many would-be adversaries to become much more active adversaries.  Not just China.  Keeping America strong, even if it means at the cost of ignoring, or at least not taking all-or-nothing stands on some admittedly egregious acts by its trading partners might be necessary to avoid far worse global consequences, beginning with consequences suffered directly by the US.  The world is a nuanced place, where not every battle is worth fighting.  
    GeorgeBMacmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 75 of 127
    Go figure. Apple. That's why CCP leaves Apple alone vs. other U.S. companies. To do business in Asia, all you have to do is bribe to get your place secured.
    That’s the problem with the report and this line of thinking; the CCP don’t leave Apple alone - regular readers of apple news can trivially recall numerous recent examples where the CCP’s state controlled media have encouraged Apple boycotts and similar.
    Apple have incredibly limited activities in the country and don’t even have some of their most basic services available. 

    If there is a deal - it’s a bad one because Apple is not getting anything out of it - rather it appears whatever tolerance the CCP has for Apple is driven by their indirect employment of millions of workers through device production. 
    GeorgeBMacharrywinter
  • Reply 76 of 127
    Apple has spent many years and talents in China. Over those years they must have seen so many good things and hard workmanship and competent engineering etc so they decide it is beneficial to invest heavily in China. Their deep experience would be completely different from many people’s superficial understanding of China gained mainly from reading some shallow news. I am in favor of Apple doing anything as long as they are legal and adhere to a high standard to benefit the company short term and long term. I won’t presume knowing how to run Apple better than Tim and Apple’s board. I will travel to China to learn more about them before criticizing Apple’s decision.
    GeorgeBMacDetnator
  • Reply 77 of 127
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,072member
    danox said:
    k2kw said:
    Let's see. Invest in training for workers to develop cutting edge production and supply chain technologies. Invest in transitioning suppliers to renewable and cleaner energy sources. Sounds like something the U.S. should be interested in but Apple's not in the Military/Oil/Coal/Pharma industries so U.S. Gov doesn't care.
    Sounds like treason to me
    That would be Google the Asian companies wouldn’t be in the smartphone game after 2007 without Google’s Android OS gift…..

    Just wait for Oak Ridge, Tennessee to pop up in main stream news because of a Thorium Reactor (American tech that was discarded) now being tested in China.

    Bill Gates is building a "natrium" nuclear power plant in Wyoming.  But the difference is in the cooling technology rather than the fuel.

    Nuclear power may likely be what saves us from climate change (most of its current problems are caused by stupidity rather than the technology itself).   It would be great to see the world come together to help each other find the best way forward.  
    ...  Climate change will be costing us far more than any so called "competitor" -- it probably already is.
    ...... Maybe Tim could strike a deal?
    edited December 2021 jony0
  • Reply 78 of 127
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,072member
    georgie01 said:
    Or Apple could have looked at the bigger picture rather than their own growth. Helping the Chinese Communist Party is not in the world’s interest.

    It always amazes me how complacent people in the US have become. We’ve had such tremendous success that we believe it’ll just keep being this good, and that we’ll always know who the bad people are because they have orange skin. That we can ignore the founders’ vision and ideals because we know so much better than they did even though we’ve had relatively zero hardships (in terms of tyrants and oppressive governments).

    At least more people are waking up to the reality of the threat from China (not the Chinese people necessarily, but the CCP).
    Would it be better to fold up shop and cede the smartphone market to the inferior Android universe, diminishing one of the most advanced US corporations?  Not sure that would help
    the US.  But it would be a brave, if foolish and horribly expensive, stand on principal.   
    And be able to look themselves in the mirror? Yes.
    Not every decision a company makes has to be about what would make it the most money in the near term.

    So Apple should not be able to look themselves in the mirror for doing business with a country that's accused of things like genocide and oppression?  

    Under your criteria they should stop doing business in the U.S.

    jony0
  • Reply 79 of 127
    bvgkbvgk Posts: 10member

    and turned a blind eye to Chineese atrocities !!

    but they always lecture the US Conservatives on various issues!!

    at least don't  project the veil that its the best Human rights company ..... Pathetic!

    thing is we all should feel ashamed that we are contributing to it by being in APPL ecosystem :(

    harrywinter
  • Reply 80 of 127
    Just a curious question, since the subject seems to be manufacturing in a different country.
    How much more would you be willing to pay to buy all US manufactured Apple products? 15%, 20%, 30%
    I am truly just curious.
    It’s not about all-US or not. It’s about not feeding totalitarian regimes with an agenda to take over the world at any cost — military force included. And there is in principle no price that’s too high to pay to avoid that. So, to satisfy your pragmatic curiosity let’s say 1000%, depending on how imminent the hostile takeover is.

    To all you speculative daydreamers in this thread: For god’s sake wake up. It’s time to pull the tongue out of that Chinese butt hole.
    It was just a question, I had been thinking about for a while and I was only asking it to see what others thought. No more, no less.
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