Intel to build $20 billion chip factory in Ohio

124

Comments

  • Reply 61 of 85
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    Japhey said:
    For the love of God, can we just once have a civil conversation around here without the 2 resident sleeper agents sowing their pro-China/anti-American propaganda seeds? 

    Just once? I don’t ask for much, but literally JUST ONE TIME. 

    Ugh. 
    You only want to listen to good words for US. Why there are some people on AI allowed to say bad words on China? Isn't this double standard, or no empathy? 
    No one is saying bad words about China, and your hyper-defensiveness and propaganda is disruptive to interesting conversation.  Put a sock in it.
    Completely false. I was replying to the poster that claims US is trying to compete with China on semiconductor. This is the real hyper-defensiveness and propaganda is disruptive to revitalize US semiconductor industry. The fact of the truths is China has no domestic semiconductor industry. It depends on imports of chips. In fact, China spends more money importing chips than importing crude oils. On the other hand, the semiconductor industry was founded by US for more than 40 years. Claiming investing 52 billion is hyper-defensiveness and propaganda.

    Tell me which facts I stated is untrue? When you bash me on saying there is no 13" MacBook Pro as untrue. You provided fact. This is a good way of discussing. How come when I discuss China-US relations you can't do the same? Instead you use bs words attacking me. 
    Simply not true.

    Here's one link, though many others are available: https://www.semiconductors.org/chinas-share-of-global-chip-sales-now-surpasses-taiwan-closing-in-on-europe-and-japan/

    And then there's the Taiwan situation too.

    The USA taking steps to shore up their domestic semi-conductor industry is entirely in response to China.  You're talking utter nonsense as you fall over yourself to defend China and sow disruption.  And it's very obvious.
    You are wrong. You did not read carefully. This article says Chinese companies sell $39.8 billion in total annual sales in 2020. But the global semiconductor sales is projected to exceed $600 billion. https://www.semiconductors.org/global-semiconductor-sales-increase-24-year-to-year-in-october-annual-sales-projected-to-increase-26-in-2021-exceed-600-billion-in-2022/
    And according to this article, China consumes 60% of global semiconductors. http://https//daxueconsulting.com/chinas-semiconductor-industry/
    I left the remaining math to you. Are you capable of doing math? You are being brainwashed. Poor guy! I feel sorry for you. 
    So?  You said that China has no domestic industry, not that Chinese imports exceed their exports.  Sort out what you think before bleating please.
    You said US spend $52 billion to compete with China semiconductor industry. I have proved you are hyper-defensiveness and propaganda. China semiconductor industry is only a small fraction. 
    I never said that.  I said that they were a response to China.  Because Chinese share is growing the USA are taking measures to secure the technology and their supply chain.  That the Chinese element is currently a small fraction is immaterial, the fact that it is growing is what is important.
    So US is trying to maintain a monopoly to prevent competition. This is illegal. This is a violation of the most fundamental principle of US. 
    No it isn't.  And what "fundamental principle" are you even talking about?

    Bit of change in argument there buddy.  Almost like you realised you didn't have a leg to stand on so needed to pivot.  Which somewhat suggests that your only intention is to confuse and distort the issue, not any good faith debate.  How very interesting.
    You are ignorant. US Congress is passing law against big hi-tech companies. https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/225902/senate-judiciary-committee-advances-antitrust-bill-targeting-big-tech#latest
    What fundamental principle US Congress used? You are so poor needing me to educate.
    I did not change subject. I am responding to your words. "USA are taking measures to secure the technology and their supply chain."
    Sure buddy, keeping spewing out nonsense.  Everyone knows you're full of it.
    You are wordless now. LOL
    It's true, I have no idea what to respond with when you've given me such a pile of halfwit rubbish.  I don't dispute that the US is passing laws against hi-tech companies.  What has that got to do with anything?  And yes, you'll need to tell me what the "fundamental principle" of the USA is, as I'm not aware of any such thing.  I doubt anyone in the USA is either, since you've just made it up.

    And you did change the subject. The thread is about Intel manufacturing, then you picked a fight about semiconductors in China and then when challenged you started interjecting random stuff about the US Congress, and a fundamental principle of the USA. You're floundering dude, not making any sense.
    What a fool! You don't know what anti-trust means. And you don't know what is the fundamental principle of US. Our discussion is going nowhere because you don't understand these two things. 
    On that we agree.
    Poor guy. The original article you posted is a total distortion. 
    https://www.semiconductors.org/chinas-share-of-global-chip-sales-now-surpasses-taiwan-closing-in-on-europe-and-japan/
    Why it focuses on Taiwan? Taiwan chip sales is only a fraction. And the article omitted the total global chip sales which is approaching $600 billion. And it also omitted the fact that China consumes 60% of global chips. 

    Last year I posted here said the fallacy of US toward China is like the story of blind men trying to know what is an elephant. Each man stated an observation which is a fact. But the fact is far from the truth what an elephant looks like. Your article stated a fact. On the surface it try to pretend it is the truth of what China's semiconductor industry looks like. It is a distortion because it omitted the two facts I found. 
    edited January 2022 GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 62 of 85
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    Japhey said:
    For the love of God, can we just once have a civil conversation around here without the 2 resident sleeper agents sowing their pro-China/anti-American propaganda seeds? 

    Just once? I don’t ask for much, but literally JUST ONE TIME. 

    Ugh. 
    You only want to listen to good words for US. Why there are some people on AI allowed to say bad words on China? Isn't this double standard, or no empathy? 
    No one is saying bad words about China, and your hyper-defensiveness and propaganda is disruptive to interesting conversation.  Put a sock in it.
    Completely false. I was replying to the poster that claims US is trying to compete with China on semiconductor. This is the real hyper-defensiveness and propaganda is disruptive to revitalize US semiconductor industry. The fact of the truths is China has no domestic semiconductor industry. It depends on imports of chips. In fact, China spends more money importing chips than importing crude oils. On the other hand, the semiconductor industry was founded by US for more than 40 years. Claiming investing 52 billion is hyper-defensiveness and propaganda.

    Tell me which facts I stated is untrue? When you bash me on saying there is no 13" MacBook Pro as untrue. You provided fact. This is a good way of discussing. How come when I discuss China-US relations you can't do the same? Instead you use bs words attacking me. 
    Simply not true.

    Here's one link, though many others are available: https://www.semiconductors.org/chinas-share-of-global-chip-sales-now-surpasses-taiwan-closing-in-on-europe-and-japan/

    And then there's the Taiwan situation too.

    The USA taking steps to shore up their domestic semi-conductor industry is entirely in response to China.  You're talking utter nonsense as you fall over yourself to defend China and sow disruption.  And it's very obvious.
    You are wrong. You did not read carefully. This article says Chinese companies sell $39.8 billion in total annual sales in 2020. But the global semiconductor sales is projected to exceed $600 billion. https://www.semiconductors.org/global-semiconductor-sales-increase-24-year-to-year-in-october-annual-sales-projected-to-increase-26-in-2021-exceed-600-billion-in-2022/
    And according to this article, China consumes 60% of global semiconductors. http://https//daxueconsulting.com/chinas-semiconductor-industry/
    I left the remaining math to you. Are you capable of doing math? You are being brainwashed. Poor guy! I feel sorry for you. 
    So?  You said that China has no domestic industry, not that Chinese imports exceed their exports.  Sort out what you think before bleating please.
    You said US spend $52 billion to compete with China semiconductor industry. I have proved you are hyper-defensiveness and propaganda. China semiconductor industry is only a small fraction. 
    I never said that.  I said that they were a response to China.  Because Chinese share is growing the USA are taking measures to secure the technology and their supply chain.  That the Chinese element is currently a small fraction is immaterial, the fact that it is growing is what is important.
    So US is trying to maintain a monopoly to prevent competition. This is illegal. This is a violation of the most fundamental principle of US. 
    No it isn't.  And what "fundamental principle" are you even talking about?

    Bit of change in argument there buddy.  Almost like you realised you didn't have a leg to stand on so needed to pivot.  Which somewhat suggests that your only intention is to confuse and distort the issue, not any good faith debate.  How very interesting.
    You are ignorant. US Congress is passing law against big hi-tech companies. https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/225902/senate-judiciary-committee-advances-antitrust-bill-targeting-big-tech#latest
    What fundamental principle US Congress used? You are so poor needing me to educate.
    I did not change subject. I am responding to your words. "USA are taking measures to secure the technology and their supply chain."
    Sure buddy, keeping spewing out nonsense.  Everyone knows you're full of it.
    You are wordless now. LOL
    It's true, I have no idea what to respond with when you've given me such a pile of halfwit rubbish.  I don't dispute that the US is passing laws against hi-tech companies.  What has that got to do with anything?  And yes, you'll need to tell me what the "fundamental principle" of the USA is, as I'm not aware of any such thing.  I doubt anyone in the USA is either, since you've just made it up.

    And you did change the subject. The thread is about Intel manufacturing, then you picked a fight about semiconductors in China and then when challenged you started interjecting random stuff about the US Congress, and a fundamental principle of the USA. You're floundering dude, not making any sense.
    What a fool! You don't know what anti-trust means. And you don't know what is the fundamental principle of US. Our discussion is going nowhere because you don't understand these two things. 
    On that we agree.
    Poor guy. The original article you posted is a total distortion. 
    https://www.semiconductors.org/chinas-share-of-global-chip-sales-now-surpasses-taiwan-closing-in-on-europe-and-japan/
    Why it focuses on Taiwan? Taiwan chip sales is only a fraction. And the article omitted the total global chip sales which is approaching $600 billion. And it also omitted the fact that China consumes 60% of global chips. 

    Last year I posted here said the fallacy of US toward China is like the story of blind men trying to know what is an elephant. Each man stated an observation which is a fact. But the fact is far from the truth what an elephant looks like. Your article stated a fact. On the surface it try to pretend it is the truth of what China's semiconductor industry looks like. It is a distortion because it omitted the two facts I found. 
    Sigh.

    Why does it focus on Taiwan?  Because Taiwan is the closest rival and comparison.
    Taiwan chip sales is only a fraction?  Sure, Every country's sales will only be a fraction. That's basically the definition of a fraction, a part of the whole.  
    The article omitted the total global chip sales?  Maybe, but are they relevant in tracking China's growth?  Not really.  Growth is measure by where are you were and where you are, not where the globe is.

    And once again, none of this is even remotely the point.  I posted the article to show that you were incorrect when you said "China has no domestic semiconductor industry", which was patently false.

    You seem to think an article is false because it doesn't contain every conceivable fact that you can fling at the wall.  That's not how things work at all, and your desperation to win an argument by twisting and writhing it around until it doesn't even slightly resemble the original point of the thread is frankly very transparent and very silly.  

    You are a very silly person.
  • Reply 63 of 85
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    Japhey said:
    For the love of God, can we just once have a civil conversation around here without the 2 resident sleeper agents sowing their pro-China/anti-American propaganda seeds? 

    Just once? I don’t ask for much, but literally JUST ONE TIME. 

    Ugh. 
    You only want to listen to good words for US. Why there are some people on AI allowed to say bad words on China? Isn't this double standard, or no empathy? 
    No one is saying bad words about China, and your hyper-defensiveness and propaganda is disruptive to interesting conversation.  Put a sock in it.
    Completely false. I was replying to the poster that claims US is trying to compete with China on semiconductor. This is the real hyper-defensiveness and propaganda is disruptive to revitalize US semiconductor industry. The fact of the truths is China has no domestic semiconductor industry. It depends on imports of chips. In fact, China spends more money importing chips than importing crude oils. On the other hand, the semiconductor industry was founded by US for more than 40 years. Claiming investing 52 billion is hyper-defensiveness and propaganda.

    Tell me which facts I stated is untrue? When you bash me on saying there is no 13" MacBook Pro as untrue. You provided fact. This is a good way of discussing. How come when I discuss China-US relations you can't do the same? Instead you use bs words attacking me. 
    Simply not true.

    Here's one link, though many others are available: https://www.semiconductors.org/chinas-share-of-global-chip-sales-now-surpasses-taiwan-closing-in-on-europe-and-japan/

    And then there's the Taiwan situation too.

    The USA taking steps to shore up their domestic semi-conductor industry is entirely in response to China.  You're talking utter nonsense as you fall over yourself to defend China and sow disruption.  And it's very obvious.
    You are wrong. You did not read carefully. This article says Chinese companies sell $39.8 billion in total annual sales in 2020. But the global semiconductor sales is projected to exceed $600 billion. https://www.semiconductors.org/global-semiconductor-sales-increase-24-year-to-year-in-october-annual-sales-projected-to-increase-26-in-2021-exceed-600-billion-in-2022/
    And according to this article, China consumes 60% of global semiconductors. http://https//daxueconsulting.com/chinas-semiconductor-industry/
    I left the remaining math to you. Are you capable of doing math? You are being brainwashed. Poor guy! I feel sorry for you. 
    So?  You said that China has no domestic industry, not that Chinese imports exceed their exports.  Sort out what you think before bleating please.
    You said US spend $52 billion to compete with China semiconductor industry. I have proved you are hyper-defensiveness and propaganda. China semiconductor industry is only a small fraction. 
    I never said that.  I said that they were a response to China.  Because Chinese share is growing the USA are taking measures to secure the technology and their supply chain.  That the Chinese element is currently a small fraction is immaterial, the fact that it is growing is what is important.
    So US is trying to maintain a monopoly to prevent competition. This is illegal. This is a violation of the most fundamental principle of US. 
    No it isn't.  And what "fundamental principle" are you even talking about?

    Bit of change in argument there buddy.  Almost like you realised you didn't have a leg to stand on so needed to pivot.  Which somewhat suggests that your only intention is to confuse and distort the issue, not any good faith debate.  How very interesting.
    You are ignorant. US Congress is passing law against big hi-tech companies. https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/225902/senate-judiciary-committee-advances-antitrust-bill-targeting-big-tech#latest
    What fundamental principle US Congress used? You are so poor needing me to educate.
    I did not change subject. I am responding to your words. "USA are taking measures to secure the technology and their supply chain."
    Sure buddy, keeping spewing out nonsense.  Everyone knows you're full of it.
    You are wordless now. LOL
    It's true, I have no idea what to respond with when you've given me such a pile of halfwit rubbish.  I don't dispute that the US is passing laws against hi-tech companies.  What has that got to do with anything?  And yes, you'll need to tell me what the "fundamental principle" of the USA is, as I'm not aware of any such thing.  I doubt anyone in the USA is either, since you've just made it up.

    And you did change the subject. The thread is about Intel manufacturing, then you picked a fight about semiconductors in China and then when challenged you started interjecting random stuff about the US Congress, and a fundamental principle of the USA. You're floundering dude, not making any sense.
    What a fool! You don't know what anti-trust means. And you don't know what is the fundamental principle of US. Our discussion is going nowhere because you don't understand these two things. 
    On that we agree.
    Poor guy. The original article you posted is a total distortion. 
    https://www.semiconductors.org/chinas-share-of-global-chip-sales-now-surpasses-taiwan-closing-in-on-europe-and-japan/
    Why it focuses on Taiwan? Taiwan chip sales is only a fraction. And the article omitted the total global chip sales which is approaching $600 billion. And it also omitted the fact that China consumes 60% of global chips. 

    Last year I posted here said the fallacy of US toward China is like the story of blind men trying to know what is an elephant. Each man stated an observation which is a fact. But the fact is far from the truth what an elephant looks like. Your article stated a fact. On the surface it try to pretend it is the truth of what China's semiconductor industry looks like. It is a distortion because it omitted the two facts I found. 
    Sigh.

    Why does it focus on Taiwan?  Because Taiwan is the closest rival and comparison.
    Taiwan chip sales is only a fraction?  Sure, Every country's sales will only be a fraction. That's basically the definition of a fraction, a part of the whole.  
    The article omitted the total global chip sales?  Maybe, but are they relevant in tracking China's growth?  Not really.  Growth is measure by where are you were and where you are, not where the globe is.

    And once again, none of this is even remotely the point.  I posted the article to show that you were incorrect when you said "China has no domestic semiconductor industry", which was patently false.

    You seem to think an article is false because it doesn't contain every conceivable fact that you can fling at the wall.  That's not how things work at all, and your desperation to win an argument by twisting and writhing it around until it doesn't even slightly resemble the original point of the thread is frankly very transparent and very silly.  

    You are a very silly person.
    No Chinese companies is in the top ten by sales. https://www.hardwaretimes.com/top-10-semiconductor-companies-q2-2021-by-sales-samsung-regains-1-spot-tsmc-at-3-nvidia-at-7/
    China consumes 60% of global chips. Its domestic semiconductor industry is essentially nonexistent. If the growth is very important, Samsung is the largest semiconductor company. Why US was not trying to compete with South Korea when Samsung is growing rapidly. So your using growth as excuse is a fraud. You are very stupid. Your logic is inconsistent. 
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 64 of 85
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    Japhey said:
    For the love of God, can we just once have a civil conversation around here without the 2 resident sleeper agents sowing their pro-China/anti-American propaganda seeds? 

    Just once? I don’t ask for much, but literally JUST ONE TIME. 

    Ugh. 
    You only want to listen to good words for US. Why there are some people on AI allowed to say bad words on China? Isn't this double standard, or no empathy? 
    No one is saying bad words about China, and your hyper-defensiveness and propaganda is disruptive to interesting conversation.  Put a sock in it.
    Completely false. I was replying to the poster that claims US is trying to compete with China on semiconductor. This is the real hyper-defensiveness and propaganda is disruptive to revitalize US semiconductor industry. The fact of the truths is China has no domestic semiconductor industry. It depends on imports of chips. In fact, China spends more money importing chips than importing crude oils. On the other hand, the semiconductor industry was founded by US for more than 40 years. Claiming investing 52 billion is hyper-defensiveness and propaganda.

    Tell me which facts I stated is untrue? When you bash me on saying there is no 13" MacBook Pro as untrue. You provided fact. This is a good way of discussing. How come when I discuss China-US relations you can't do the same? Instead you use bs words attacking me. 
    Simply not true.

    Here's one link, though many others are available: https://www.semiconductors.org/chinas-share-of-global-chip-sales-now-surpasses-taiwan-closing-in-on-europe-and-japan/

    And then there's the Taiwan situation too.

    The USA taking steps to shore up their domestic semi-conductor industry is entirely in response to China.  You're talking utter nonsense as you fall over yourself to defend China and sow disruption.  And it's very obvious.
    You are wrong. You did not read carefully. This article says Chinese companies sell $39.8 billion in total annual sales in 2020. But the global semiconductor sales is projected to exceed $600 billion. https://www.semiconductors.org/global-semiconductor-sales-increase-24-year-to-year-in-october-annual-sales-projected-to-increase-26-in-2021-exceed-600-billion-in-2022/
    And according to this article, China consumes 60% of global semiconductors. http://https//daxueconsulting.com/chinas-semiconductor-industry/
    I left the remaining math to you. Are you capable of doing math? You are being brainwashed. Poor guy! I feel sorry for you. 
    So?  You said that China has no domestic industry, not that Chinese imports exceed their exports.  Sort out what you think before bleating please.
    You said US spend $52 billion to compete with China semiconductor industry. I have proved you are hyper-defensiveness and propaganda. China semiconductor industry is only a small fraction. 
    I never said that.  I said that they were a response to China.  Because Chinese share is growing the USA are taking measures to secure the technology and their supply chain.  That the Chinese element is currently a small fraction is immaterial, the fact that it is growing is what is important.
    So US is trying to maintain a monopoly to prevent competition. This is illegal. This is a violation of the most fundamental principle of US. 
    No it isn't.  And what "fundamental principle" are you even talking about?

    Bit of change in argument there buddy.  Almost like you realised you didn't have a leg to stand on so needed to pivot.  Which somewhat suggests that your only intention is to confuse and distort the issue, not any good faith debate.  How very interesting.
    You are ignorant. US Congress is passing law against big hi-tech companies. https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/225902/senate-judiciary-committee-advances-antitrust-bill-targeting-big-tech#latest
    What fundamental principle US Congress used? You are so poor needing me to educate.
    I did not change subject. I am responding to your words. "USA are taking measures to secure the technology and their supply chain."
    Sure buddy, keeping spewing out nonsense.  Everyone knows you're full of it.
    You are wordless now. LOL
    It's true, I have no idea what to respond with when you've given me such a pile of halfwit rubbish.  I don't dispute that the US is passing laws against hi-tech companies.  What has that got to do with anything?  And yes, you'll need to tell me what the "fundamental principle" of the USA is, as I'm not aware of any such thing.  I doubt anyone in the USA is either, since you've just made it up.

    And you did change the subject. The thread is about Intel manufacturing, then you picked a fight about semiconductors in China and then when challenged you started interjecting random stuff about the US Congress, and a fundamental principle of the USA. You're floundering dude, not making any sense.
    What a fool! You don't know what anti-trust means. And you don't know what is the fundamental principle of US. Our discussion is going nowhere because you don't understand these two things. 
    On that we agree.
    Poor guy. The original article you posted is a total distortion. 
    https://www.semiconductors.org/chinas-share-of-global-chip-sales-now-surpasses-taiwan-closing-in-on-europe-and-japan/
    Why it focuses on Taiwan? Taiwan chip sales is only a fraction. And the article omitted the total global chip sales which is approaching $600 billion. And it also omitted the fact that China consumes 60% of global chips. 

    Last year I posted here said the fallacy of US toward China is like the story of blind men trying to know what is an elephant. Each man stated an observation which is a fact. But the fact is far from the truth what an elephant looks like. Your article stated a fact. On the surface it try to pretend it is the truth of what China's semiconductor industry looks like. It is a distortion because it omitted the two facts I found. 
    Sigh.

    Why does it focus on Taiwan?  Because Taiwan is the closest rival and comparison.
    Taiwan chip sales is only a fraction?  Sure, Every country's sales will only be a fraction. That's basically the definition of a fraction, a part of the whole.  
    The article omitted the total global chip sales?  Maybe, but are they relevant in tracking China's growth?  Not really.  Growth is measure by where are you were and where you are, not where the globe is.

    And once again, none of this is even remotely the point.  I posted the article to show that you were incorrect when you said "China has no domestic semiconductor industry", which was patently false.

    You seem to think an article is false because it doesn't contain every conceivable fact that you can fling at the wall.  That's not how things work at all, and your desperation to win an argument by twisting and writhing it around until it doesn't even slightly resemble the original point of the thread is frankly very transparent and very silly.  

    You are a very silly person.
    No Chinese companies is in the top ten by sales. https://www.hardwaretimes.com/top-10-semiconductor-companies-q2-2021-by-sales-samsung-regains-1-spot-tsmc-at-3-nvidia-at-7/
    China consumes 60% of global chips. Its domestic semiconductor industry is essentially nonexistent. If the growth is very important, Samsung is the largest semiconductor company. Why US was not trying to compete with South Korea when Samsung is growing rapidly. So your using growth as excuse is a fraud. You are very stupid. Your logic is inconsistent. 
    South Korea is an ally of the USA, genius.  I really can't be bothered with your idiocy any more this evening.  Good night.
    edited January 2022 tmay
  • Reply 65 of 85
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    Japhey said:
    For the love of God, can we just once have a civil conversation around here without the 2 resident sleeper agents sowing their pro-China/anti-American propaganda seeds? 

    Just once? I don’t ask for much, but literally JUST ONE TIME. 

    Ugh. 
    You only want to listen to good words for US. Why there are some people on AI allowed to say bad words on China? Isn't this double standard, or no empathy? 
    No one is saying bad words about China, and your hyper-defensiveness and propaganda is disruptive to interesting conversation.  Put a sock in it.
    Completely false. I was replying to the poster that claims US is trying to compete with China on semiconductor. This is the real hyper-defensiveness and propaganda is disruptive to revitalize US semiconductor industry. The fact of the truths is China has no domestic semiconductor industry. It depends on imports of chips. In fact, China spends more money importing chips than importing crude oils. On the other hand, the semiconductor industry was founded by US for more than 40 years. Claiming investing 52 billion is hyper-defensiveness and propaganda.

    Tell me which facts I stated is untrue? When you bash me on saying there is no 13" MacBook Pro as untrue. You provided fact. This is a good way of discussing. How come when I discuss China-US relations you can't do the same? Instead you use bs words attacking me. 
    Simply not true.

    Here's one link, though many others are available: https://www.semiconductors.org/chinas-share-of-global-chip-sales-now-surpasses-taiwan-closing-in-on-europe-and-japan/

    And then there's the Taiwan situation too.

    The USA taking steps to shore up their domestic semi-conductor industry is entirely in response to China.  You're talking utter nonsense as you fall over yourself to defend China and sow disruption.  And it's very obvious.
    You are wrong. You did not read carefully. This article says Chinese companies sell $39.8 billion in total annual sales in 2020. But the global semiconductor sales is projected to exceed $600 billion. https://www.semiconductors.org/global-semiconductor-sales-increase-24-year-to-year-in-october-annual-sales-projected-to-increase-26-in-2021-exceed-600-billion-in-2022/
    And according to this article, China consumes 60% of global semiconductors. http://https//daxueconsulting.com/chinas-semiconductor-industry/
    I left the remaining math to you. Are you capable of doing math? You are being brainwashed. Poor guy! I feel sorry for you. 
    So?  You said that China has no domestic industry, not that Chinese imports exceed their exports.  Sort out what you think before bleating please.
    You said US spend $52 billion to compete with China semiconductor industry. I have proved you are hyper-defensiveness and propaganda. China semiconductor industry is only a small fraction. 
    I never said that.  I said that they were a response to China.  Because Chinese share is growing the USA are taking measures to secure the technology and their supply chain.  That the Chinese element is currently a small fraction is immaterial, the fact that it is growing is what is important.
    So US is trying to maintain a monopoly to prevent competition. This is illegal. This is a violation of the most fundamental principle of US. 
    No it isn't.  And what "fundamental principle" are you even talking about?

    Bit of change in argument there buddy.  Almost like you realised you didn't have a leg to stand on so needed to pivot.  Which somewhat suggests that your only intention is to confuse and distort the issue, not any good faith debate.  How very interesting.
    You are ignorant. US Congress is passing law against big hi-tech companies. https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/225902/senate-judiciary-committee-advances-antitrust-bill-targeting-big-tech#latest
    What fundamental principle US Congress used? You are so poor needing me to educate.
    I did not change subject. I am responding to your words. "USA are taking measures to secure the technology and their supply chain."
    Sure buddy, keeping spewing out nonsense.  Everyone knows you're full of it.
    You are wordless now. LOL
    It's true, I have no idea what to respond with when you've given me such a pile of halfwit rubbish.  I don't dispute that the US is passing laws against hi-tech companies.  What has that got to do with anything?  And yes, you'll need to tell me what the "fundamental principle" of the USA is, as I'm not aware of any such thing.  I doubt anyone in the USA is either, since you've just made it up.

    And you did change the subject. The thread is about Intel manufacturing, then you picked a fight about semiconductors in China and then when challenged you started interjecting random stuff about the US Congress, and a fundamental principle of the USA. You're floundering dude, not making any sense.
    What a fool! You don't know what anti-trust means. And you don't know what is the fundamental principle of US. Our discussion is going nowhere because you don't understand these two things. 
    On that we agree.
    Poor guy. The original article you posted is a total distortion. 
    https://www.semiconductors.org/chinas-share-of-global-chip-sales-now-surpasses-taiwan-closing-in-on-europe-and-japan/
    Why it focuses on Taiwan? Taiwan chip sales is only a fraction. And the article omitted the total global chip sales which is approaching $600 billion. And it also omitted the fact that China consumes 60% of global chips. 

    Last year I posted here said the fallacy of US toward China is like the story of blind men trying to know what is an elephant. Each man stated an observation which is a fact. But the fact is far from the truth what an elephant looks like. Your article stated a fact. On the surface it try to pretend it is the truth of what China's semiconductor industry looks like. It is a distortion because it omitted the two facts I found. 
    Sigh.

    Why does it focus on Taiwan?  Because Taiwan is the closest rival and comparison.
    Taiwan chip sales is only a fraction?  Sure, Every country's sales will only be a fraction. That's basically the definition of a fraction, a part of the whole.  
    The article omitted the total global chip sales?  Maybe, but are they relevant in tracking China's growth?  Not really.  Growth is measure by where are you were and where you are, not where the globe is.

    And once again, none of this is even remotely the point.  I posted the article to show that you were incorrect when you said "China has no domestic semiconductor industry", which was patently false.

    You seem to think an article is false because it doesn't contain every conceivable fact that you can fling at the wall.  That's not how things work at all, and your desperation to win an argument by twisting and writhing it around until it doesn't even slightly resemble the original point of the thread is frankly very transparent and very silly.  

    You are a very silly person.
    No Chinese companies is in the top ten by sales. https://www.hardwaretimes.com/top-10-semiconductor-companies-q2-2021-by-sales-samsung-regains-1-spot-tsmc-at-3-nvidia-at-7/
    China consumes 60% of global chips. Its domestic semiconductor industry is essentially nonexistent. If the growth is very important, Samsung is the largest semiconductor company. Why US was not trying to compete with South Korea when Samsung is growing rapidly. So your using growth as excuse is a fraud. You are very stupid. Your logic is inconsistent. 
    South Korea is an ally of the USA, genius.  I really can't be bothered with your idiocy any more this evening.  Good night.
    I rest my case. There is no more we can talk. 
  • Reply 66 of 85
    kennmsrkennmsr Posts: 100member
    I'm not sure about the rest of them, but CMU is a three hour drive from there.

    Three hours is a typical commute in Silicon Valley, and 3000 jobs is just the Intel jobs that doesn’t take into account all the support business’ that will pop up to fill the ongoing support needs of a Fab Facility. By keeping technology in the region other tech businnes’ might spring up creating a technology center where local engineering schools can send students for internships.
    dewmehighframerate
  • Reply 67 of 85
    lorca2770 said:

    Now, if Intel could just get the litho machines, to produce chips, from ASML Holdings on time…For what I know there is a back log of years…


    Building those factories takes years too. Intel already ordered EUv lithography machines from ASML years ago. This week they ordered the newest ASML' EUV lithography machines for below 2nm. Yes, this machine won't ship any day soon, but Intel secured the first one. 
    GeorgeBMachighframerate
  • Reply 68 of 85
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    crowley said:
    Get a clue for once in your life George.  There is no misinformation, the only thing that has even been said about China in this thread is that it has a growing share of the global semiconductor market.

    This is a thread about the USA, and you two clowns are just doing your usual puppet routine of mind-numbing nonsense because there's a slight angle on China that you want to distort.

    That's the trouble...  I do have clue.   And I recognize a China Hater when I see one.  You take every opportunity to smear and bash that country and get your panties in a bunch whenever somebody calls bull to to your bull.

    The trouble is not that you are hurting China.  They're a big country and can obviously take it.  You are hurting the United States by helping to take it down a wrong path:   another war (warm or cold) that it can't win.
  • Reply 69 of 85
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    Japhey said:
    For the love of God, can we just once have a civil conversation around here without the 2 resident sleeper agents sowing their pro-China/anti-American propaganda seeds? 

    Just once? I don’t ask for much, but literally JUST ONE TIME. 

    Ugh. 
    You only want to listen to good words for US. Why there are some people on AI allowed to say bad words on China? Isn't this double standard, or no empathy? 
    No one is saying bad words about China, and your hyper-defensiveness and propaganda is disruptive to interesting conversation.  Put a sock in it.
    Completely false. I was replying to the poster that claims US is trying to compete with China on semiconductor. This is the real hyper-defensiveness and propaganda is disruptive to revitalize US semiconductor industry. The fact of the truths is China has no domestic semiconductor industry. It depends on imports of chips. In fact, China spends more money importing chips than importing crude oils. On the other hand, the semiconductor industry was founded by US for more than 40 years. Claiming investing 52 billion is hyper-defensiveness and propaganda.

    Tell me which facts I stated is untrue? When you bash me on saying there is no 13" MacBook Pro as untrue. You provided fact. This is a good way of discussing. How come when I discuss China-US relations you can't do the same? Instead you use bs words attacking me. 
    Simply not true.

    Here's one link, though many others are available: https://www.semiconductors.org/chinas-share-of-global-chip-sales-now-surpasses-taiwan-closing-in-on-europe-and-japan/

    And then there's the Taiwan situation too.

    The USA taking steps to shore up their domestic semi-conductor industry is entirely in response to China.  You're talking utter nonsense as you fall over yourself to defend China and sow disruption.  And it's very obvious.
    You are wrong. You did not read carefully. This article says Chinese companies sell $39.8 billion in total annual sales in 2020. But the global semiconductor sales is projected to exceed $600 billion. https://www.semiconductors.org/global-semiconductor-sales-increase-24-year-to-year-in-october-annual-sales-projected-to-increase-26-in-2021-exceed-600-billion-in-2022/
    And according to this article, China consumes 60% of global semiconductors. http://https//daxueconsulting.com/chinas-semiconductor-industry/
    I left the remaining math to you. Are you capable of doing math? You are being brainwashed. Poor guy! I feel sorry for you. 
    So?  You said that China has no domestic industry, not that Chinese imports exceed their exports.  Sort out what you think before bleating please.
    You said US spend $52 billion to compete with China semiconductor industry. I have proved you are hyper-defensiveness and propaganda. China semiconductor industry is only a small fraction. 
    I never said that.  I said that they were a response to China.  Because Chinese share is growing the USA are taking measures to secure the technology and their supply chain.  That the Chinese element is currently a small fraction is immaterial, the fact that it is growing is what is important.
    So US is trying to maintain a monopoly to prevent competition. This is illegal. This is a violation of the most fundamental principle of US. 
    No it isn't.  And what "fundamental principle" are you even talking about?

    Bit of change in argument there buddy.  Almost like you realised you didn't have a leg to stand on so needed to pivot.  Which somewhat suggests that your only intention is to confuse and distort the issue, not any good faith debate.  How very interesting.
    You are ignorant. US Congress is passing law against big hi-tech companies. https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/225902/senate-judiciary-committee-advances-antitrust-bill-targeting-big-tech#latest
    What fundamental principle US Congress used? You are so poor needing me to educate.
    I did not change subject. I am responding to your words. "USA are taking measures to secure the technology and their supply chain."
    Sure buddy, keeping spewing out nonsense.  Everyone knows you're full of it.
    You are wordless now. LOL
    It's true, I have no idea what to respond with when you've given me such a pile of halfwit rubbish.  I don't dispute that the US is passing laws against hi-tech companies.  What has that got to do with anything?  And yes, you'll need to tell me what the "fundamental principle" of the USA is, as I'm not aware of any such thing.  I doubt anyone in the USA is either, since you've just made it up.

    And you did change the subject. The thread is about Intel manufacturing, then you picked a fight about semiconductors in China and then when challenged you started interjecting random stuff about the US Congress, and a fundamental principle of the USA. You're floundering dude, not making any sense.

    Challenging bullshit isn't picking a fight.  It's just calling bull to the bull.
  • Reply 70 of 85
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    Japhey said:
    For the love of God, can we just once have a civil conversation around here without the 2 resident sleeper agents sowing their pro-China/anti-American propaganda seeds? 

    Just once? I don’t ask for much, but literally JUST ONE TIME. 

    Ugh. 
    You only want to listen to good words for US. Why there are some people on AI allowed to say bad words on China? Isn't this double standard, or no empathy? 
    No one is saying bad words about China, and your hyper-defensiveness and propaganda is disruptive to interesting conversation.  Put a sock in it.
    Completely false. I was replying to the poster that claims US is trying to compete with China on semiconductor. This is the real hyper-defensiveness and propaganda is disruptive to revitalize US semiconductor industry. The fact of the truths is China has no domestic semiconductor industry. It depends on imports of chips. In fact, China spends more money importing chips than importing crude oils. On the other hand, the semiconductor industry was founded by US for more than 40 years. Claiming investing 52 billion is hyper-defensiveness and propaganda.

    Tell me which facts I stated is untrue? When you bash me on saying there is no 13" MacBook Pro as untrue. You provided fact. This is a good way of discussing. How come when I discuss China-US relations you can't do the same? Instead you use bs words attacking me. 
    Simply not true.

    Here's one link, though many others are available: https://www.semiconductors.org/chinas-share-of-global-chip-sales-now-surpasses-taiwan-closing-in-on-europe-and-japan/

    And then there's the Taiwan situation too.

    The USA taking steps to shore up their domestic semi-conductor industry is entirely in response to China.  You're talking utter nonsense as you fall over yourself to defend China and sow disruption.  And it's very obvious.
    You are wrong. You did not read carefully. This article says Chinese companies sell $39.8 billion in total annual sales in 2020. But the global semiconductor sales is projected to exceed $600 billion. https://www.semiconductors.org/global-semiconductor-sales-increase-24-year-to-year-in-october-annual-sales-projected-to-increase-26-in-2021-exceed-600-billion-in-2022/
    And according to this article, China consumes 60% of global semiconductors. http://https//daxueconsulting.com/chinas-semiconductor-industry/
    I left the remaining math to you. Are you capable of doing math? You are being brainwashed. Poor guy! I feel sorry for you. 
    So?  You said that China has no domestic industry, not that Chinese imports exceed their exports.  Sort out what you think before bleating please.
    You said US spend $52 billion to compete with China semiconductor industry. I have proved you are hyper-defensiveness and propaganda. China semiconductor industry is only a small fraction. 
    I never said that.  I said that they were a response to China.  Because Chinese share is growing the USA are taking measures to secure the technology and their supply chain.  That the Chinese element is currently a small fraction is immaterial, the fact that it is growing is what is important.
    So US is trying to maintain a monopoly to prevent competition. This is illegal. This is a violation of the most fundamental principle of US. 
    No it isn't.  And what "fundamental principle" are you even talking about?

    Bit of change in argument there buddy.  Almost like you realised you didn't have a leg to stand on so needed to pivot.  Which somewhat suggests that your only intention is to confuse and distort the issue, not any good faith debate.  How very interesting.
    You are ignorant. US Congress is passing law against big hi-tech companies. https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/225902/senate-judiciary-committee-advances-antitrust-bill-targeting-big-tech#latest
    What fundamental principle US Congress used? You are so poor needing me to educate.
    I did not change subject. I am responding to your words. "USA are taking measures to secure the technology and their supply chain."
    Sure buddy, keeping spewing out nonsense.  Everyone knows you're full of it.
    You are wordless now. LOL
    It's true, I have no idea what to respond with when you've given me such a pile of halfwit rubbish.  I don't dispute that the US is passing laws against hi-tech companies.  What has that got to do with anything?  And yes, you'll need to tell me what the "fundamental principle" of the USA is, as I'm not aware of any such thing.  I doubt anyone in the USA is either, since you've just made it up.

    And you did change the subject. The thread is about Intel manufacturing, then you picked a fight about semiconductors in China and then when challenged you started interjecting random stuff about the US Congress, and a fundamental principle of the USA. You're floundering dude, not making any sense.
    What a fool! You don't know what anti-trust means. And you don't know what is the fundamental principle of US. Our discussion is going nowhere because you don't understand these two things. 
    On that we agree.
    Poor guy. The original article you posted is a total distortion. 
    https://www.semiconductors.org/chinas-share-of-global-chip-sales-now-surpasses-taiwan-closing-in-on-europe-and-japan/
    Why it focuses on Taiwan? Taiwan chip sales is only a fraction. And the article omitted the total global chip sales which is approaching $600 billion. And it also omitted the fact that China consumes 60% of global chips. 

    Last year I posted here said the fallacy of US toward China is like the story of blind men trying to know what is an elephant. Each man stated an observation which is a fact. But the fact is far from the truth what an elephant looks like. Your article stated a fact. On the surface it try to pretend it is the truth of what China's semiconductor industry looks like. It is a distortion because it omitted the two facts I found. 
    Sigh.

    Why does it focus on Taiwan?  Because Taiwan is the closest rival and comparison.
    Taiwan chip sales is only a fraction?  Sure, Every country's sales will only be a fraction. That's basically the definition of a fraction, a part of the whole.  
    The article omitted the total global chip sales?  Maybe, but are they relevant in tracking China's growth?  Not really.  Growth is measure by where are you were and where you are, not where the globe is.

    And once again, none of this is even remotely the point.  I posted the article to show that you were incorrect when you said "China has no domestic semiconductor industry", which was patently false.

    You seem to think an article is false because it doesn't contain every conceivable fact that you can fling at the wall.  That's not how things work at all, and your desperation to win an argument by twisting and writhing it around until it doesn't even slightly resemble the original point of the thread is frankly very transparent and very silly.  

    You are a very silly person.
    No Chinese companies is in the top ten by sales. https://www.hardwaretimes.com/top-10-semiconductor-companies-q2-2021-by-sales-samsung-regains-1-spot-tsmc-at-3-nvidia-at-7/
    China consumes 60% of global chips. Its domestic semiconductor industry is essentially nonexistent. If the growth is very important, Samsung is the largest semiconductor company. Why US was not trying to compete with South Korea when Samsung is growing rapidly. So your using growth as excuse is a fraud. You are very stupid. Your logic is inconsistent. 
    South Korea is an ally of the USA, genius.  I really can't be bothered with your idiocy any more this evening.  Good night.

    And so WAS China till some idiot and his cult picked a fight them.
    waveparticle
  • Reply 71 of 85
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    kennmsr said:
    I'm not sure about the rest of them, but CMU is a three hour drive from there.

    Three hours is a typical commute in Silicon Valley, and 3000 jobs is just the Intel jobs that doesn’t take into account all the support business’ that will pop up to fill the ongoing support needs of a Fab Facility. By keeping technology in the region other tech businnes’ might spring up creating a technology center where local engineering schools can send students for internships.

    Yes, industry does spawn industry.  It's one of the big reasons why China is now 'the world's factory':  it has layer upon layer of manufacturing capacity and each supports and builds on the other.  More than one industrialist has said:  "if I want a special screw, I can get one quickly and easily in China".

    The U.S. used to have that network as well:
    We in Pittsburgh now have a wonderful system of regional biking trails (and a great river system) left over from the railroads that funneled goods from and to the mines and regional factories to the mighty steel mills lining the Mon Valley.   And, the city has a bunch of colleges and universities as a result as well.

    I'm not sure that a single chip factory can duplicate that.  But I hope that it does.  And, at the very least, it's a good (re)start.
    dewme
  • Reply 72 of 85
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    GeorgeBMac said:

    That's the trouble...  I do have clue.   And I recognize a China Hater when I see one.  You take every opportunity to smear and bash that country and get your panties in a bunch whenever somebody calls bull to to your bull.

     The trouble is not that you are hurting China. They're a big country and can obviously take it. You are hurting the United States by helping to take it down a wrong path: another war (warm or cold) that it can't win.
    I take "every opportunity top smear and bash" China, and yet in this very thread, where China has been shoehorned in to the conversation, I have done neither. All I've said is that their semiconductor industry is growing. And that's a call to war is it?  Laughable, as ever.

    You and your little friend are living in a dream world where every conversation is an attack. His is easily explained that he's a card carrying member of the CCP and echoes their insecurities, but for you George? I worry for your mental health.
    edited January 2022 robabaJaphey
  • Reply 73 of 85
    Look folks. This plant doesn't have squat to do with China. This plant is being built so Intel can catch TSMC. Even if Intel doesn't catch TSMC getting "close enough" - like staying one generation behind is fine. Not everyone needs to be on the latest, best node. Qualcomm switched to Samsung - which is one generation behind TSMC due to inferior transistor density - for their flagship chips and it hasn't affected them one bit. MediaTek - until this year - avoided TSMC's latest nodes to save money and have now surpassed Qualcomm as the #1 chipseller in the world. AMD has never used TSMC's latest nodes either. Their current chips are 7nm while TSMC is releasing 4nm chips for their mobile partners. By the time the TSMC backlog FINALLY allows AMD's 5nm Zen 4 chips on the market 4Q2023, Apple's 4nm M2 chips will be out for the 2nd gen MacBook Air, 13' MacBook Pro and Mac Mini refreshes as well as for the 1st gen iMac Pro and Mac Pro. 

    Getting "close enough" would definitely allow Intel to get business from Nvidia, who also doesn't use the latest process node: they are a generation behind on TSMC and have also used Samsung. It would also be good enough for Qualcomm. Where their flagship chips are currently being made on Samsung's 4nm (which at least allows them to compete with TSMC's 4nm on paper) their non-flagship chips are being made on Samsung's 5nm and TSMC's 7nm. Qualcomm would be able to shift that to Intel, save themselves a lot of money and get their products to market faster.
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 74 of 85
    Also, this is more than being about the 3000 jobs. Consider GPUs. Right now, discrete GPUs are exclusively made in Asia. Samsung and TSMC are the only companies that fab Nvidia and AMD GPUs. But Nvidia and AMD doesn't just sell the fabbed chip to OEMs and end consumers. They sell the fabbed chips to third parties like Asus, PNY, Zotac, MSI who builds the equivalent for CPU motherboards for them that includes the GPU. (Nvidia Founders Edition is where Nvidia builds their own boards with their own GPUs and charges a premium for them. AMD doesn't do this.) Right now most GPU boards are manufactured in Asia - because that is where the fabs are - and shipped here. But when Intel starts making their own GPUs in this facility - and Nvidia comes along for the ride - then it will make sense for GPU board manufacturers to set up shop nearby.  And of course, Foxconn makes a lot of GPU boards (they have - or had - their own branded line and also as a white box manufacturer for others). So we may actually see that largely idle Foxconn facility in Wisconsin begin to make GPUs.

    If Intel is able to get Qualcomm's business: more of the same. Instead of fabbing the chip in Ohio, shipping it to Taiwan to make the component for the fabbed chip and then shipping it back, there is a real chance that the component manufacturers will open factories in America to build the components closer to where they are fabbed if for no reason other than to reduce shipping delays and the number of chips that get damaged while shipping (the chips are rather fragile until they reach their "final form" manufactured stage). 

    So, the only way that anyone can see this as a bad deal is if you have the idea that, well, America shouldn't have manufacturing jobs. Even if you believe that Apple Silicon is going to ultimately result in the death of x86 - I am done explaining the many reasons why this isn't true because fanboys are going to believe what they choose to, just like every sports fan believes that their team is going to win the World Cup/Stanley Cup/World Series etc. I guess - then this will allow Intel to become a leading fabricator for the ARM vendors that remain instead of just letting all that business go to TSMC, Samsung and China's UMC and SMIC. 
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 75 of 85
    Look folks. This plant doesn't have squat to do with China. This plant is being built so Intel can catch TSMC. Even if Intel doesn't catch TSMC getting "close enough" - like staying one generation behind is fine. Not everyone needs to be on the latest, best node. Qualcomm switched to Samsung - which is one generation behind TSMC due to inferior transistor density - for their flagship chips and it hasn't affected them one bit. MediaTek - until this year - avoided TSMC's latest nodes to save money and have now surpassed Qualcomm as the #1 chipseller in the world. AMD has never used TSMC's latest nodes either. Their current chips are 7nm while TSMC is releasing 4nm chips for their mobile partners. By the time the TSMC backlog FINALLY allows AMD's 5nm Zen 4 chips on the market 4Q2023, Apple's 4nm M2 chips will be out for the 2nd gen MacBook Air, 13' MacBook Pro and Mac Mini refreshes as well as for the 1st gen iMac Pro and Mac Pro. 

    Getting "close enough" would definitely allow Intel to get business from Nvidia, who also doesn't use the latest process node: they are a generation behind on TSMC and have also used Samsung. It would also be good enough for Qualcomm. Where their flagship chips are currently being made on Samsung's 4nm (which at least allows them to compete with TSMC's 4nm on paper) their non-flagship chips are being made on Samsung's 5nm and TSMC's 7nm. Qualcomm would be able to shift that to Intel, save themselves a lot of money and get their products to market faster.
    ASML used an idea from TSMC to developed EUV. IBM, Intel, Samsung funded ASML with $5 billions ten years ago obtaining priority in shipment. China is late in the game. It has money but no deals. So it is blocked and has to develop EUV by itself.
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 76 of 85
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    Also, this is more than being about the 3000 jobs. Consider GPUs. Right now, discrete GPUs are exclusively made in Asia. Samsung and TSMC are the only companies that fab Nvidia and AMD GPUs. But Nvidia and AMD doesn't just sell the fabbed chip to OEMs and end consumers. They sell the fabbed chips to third parties like Asus, PNY, Zotac, MSI who builds the equivalent for CPU motherboards for them that includes the GPU. (Nvidia Founders Edition is where Nvidia builds their own boards with their own GPUs and charges a premium for them. AMD doesn't do this.) Right now most GPU boards are manufactured in Asia - because that is where the fabs are - and shipped here. But when Intel starts making their own GPUs in this facility - and Nvidia comes along for the ride - then it will make sense for GPU board manufacturers to set up shop nearby.  And of course, Foxconn makes a lot of GPU boards (they have - or had - their own branded line and also as a white box manufacturer for others). So we may actually see that largely idle Foxconn facility in Wisconsin begin to make GPUs.

    If Intel is able to get Qualcomm's business: more of the same. Instead of fabbing the chip in Ohio, shipping it to Taiwan to make the component for the fabbed chip and then shipping it back, there is a real chance that the component manufacturers will open factories in America to build the components closer to where they are fabbed if for no reason other than to reduce shipping delays and the number of chips that get damaged while shipping (the chips are rather fragile until they reach their "final form" manufactured stage). 

    So, the only way that anyone can see this as a bad deal is if you have the idea that, well, America shouldn't have manufacturing jobs. Even if you believe that Apple Silicon is going to ultimately result in the death of x86 - I am done explaining the many reasons why this isn't true because fanboys are going to believe what they choose to, just like every sports fan believes that their team is going to win the World Cup/Stanley Cup/World Series etc. I guess - then this will allow Intel to become a leading fabricator for the ARM vendors that remain instead of just letting all that business go to TSMC, Samsung and China's UMC and SMIC. 
    Good points!
    But one I choked on:  I don't think its really about "Apple Silicon" vs Intel.  I think it will be about ARM vs x86 architecture.   I think the question is:  Will ARM replace x86?  Or, will they each find and hold a place in computing architecture?

  • Reply 77 of 85
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,384member
    Also, this is more than being about the 3000 jobs. Consider GPUs. Right now, discrete GPUs are exclusively made in Asia. Samsung and TSMC are the only companies that fab Nvidia and AMD GPUs. But Nvidia and AMD doesn't just sell the fabbed chip to OEMs and end consumers. They sell the fabbed chips to third parties like Asus, PNY, Zotac, MSI who builds the equivalent for CPU motherboards for them that includes the GPU. (Nvidia Founders Edition is where Nvidia builds their own boards with their own GPUs and charges a premium for them. AMD doesn't do this.) Right now most GPU boards are manufactured in Asia - because that is where the fabs are - and shipped here. But when Intel starts making their own GPUs in this facility - and Nvidia comes along for the ride - then it will make sense for GPU board manufacturers to set up shop nearby.  And of course, Foxconn makes a lot of GPU boards (they have - or had - their own branded line and also as a white box manufacturer for others). So we may actually see that largely idle Foxconn facility in Wisconsin begin to make GPUs.

    If Intel is able to get Qualcomm's business: more of the same. Instead of fabbing the chip in Ohio, shipping it to Taiwan to make the component for the fabbed chip and then shipping it back, there is a real chance that the component manufacturers will open factories in America to build the components closer to where they are fabbed if for no reason other than to reduce shipping delays and the number of chips that get damaged while shipping (the chips are rather fragile until they reach their "final form" manufactured stage). 

    So, the only way that anyone can see this as a bad deal is if you have the idea that, well, America shouldn't have manufacturing jobs. Even if you believe that Apple Silicon is going to ultimately result in the death of x86 - I am done explaining the many reasons why this isn't true because fanboys are going to believe what they choose to, just like every sports fan believes that their team is going to win the World Cup/Stanley Cup/World Series etc. I guess - then this will allow Intel to become a leading fabricator for the ARM vendors that remain instead of just letting all that business go to TSMC, Samsung and China's UMC and SMIC. 
    You'll probably appreciate this article; 
     
    https://stratechery.com/2022/the-intel-split/

    [Moore’s Law] is a social compact, an agreement between the semiconductor industry and the rest of the world that the former will continue to strive to maintain the trajectory of the law as long as possible, and the latter will pay for the fruits of this breakneck pace. Moore’s Law has worked not because it is intrinsic to semiconductor technology. On the contrary, if tomorrow morning the world’s great chip companies were to agree to stop advancing the technology, Moore’s Law would be repealed by tomorrow evening, leaving the next few decades with the task of mopping up all of its implications.

    ,,,

    When I was at TI and General Instrument, I saw a lot of IC [Integrated Circuit] designers wanting to leave and set up their own business, but the only thing, or the biggest thing that stopped them from leaving those companies was that they couldn’t raise enough money to form their own company. Because at that time, it was thought that every company needed manufacturing, needed wafer manufacturing, and that was the most capital intensive part of a semiconductor company, of an IC company. And I saw all those people wanting to leave, but being stopped by the lack of ability to raise a lot of money to build a wafer fab. So I thought that maybe TSMC, a pure-play foundry, could remedy that. And as a result of us being able to remedy that then those designers would successfully form their own companies, and they will become our customers, and they will constitute a stable and growing market for us.
  • Reply 78 of 85
    There might be 3,000 construction jobs, but not once the fab complex is up and running.
    A fab has very little to do with "electronics". It is a hazardous chemical plant and the fab itself is but a giant machine.
    Raw materials in, wafers out. And those raw materials are some of the purest, most potent chemicals available.
    As far as providing "tech" jobs, the chip design work isn't being done on-site, nor is the design of the ASML-supplied fab equipment.
    There might be a small workforce to do maintenance, but the goal of modern fab design is to have no humans inside the facility at all.

    This is Intel getting free land, free infrastructure, and taxpayer subsidized workers.
    waveparticleGeorgeBMacdanox
  • Reply 79 of 85
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,384member
    There might be 3,000 construction jobs, but not once the fab complex is up and running.
    A fab has very little to do with "electronics". It is a hazardous chemical plant and the fab itself is but a giant machine.
    Raw materials in, wafers out. And those raw materials are some of the purest, most potent chemicals available.
    As far as providing "tech" jobs, the chip design work isn't being done on-site, nor is the design of the ASML-supplied fab equipment.
    There might be a small workforce to do maintenance, but the goal of modern fab design is to have no humans inside the facility at all.

    This is Intel getting free land, free infrastructure, and taxpayer subsidized workers.
    Misinformation on your part...

    https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/state/redefining-the-rust-belt-intel-announces-20-billion-mega-plant-near-columbus-impact-to-be-felt-statewide

    The massive complex, which will include the construction of two chip factories in the near term, will be located in Licking County on a 1,000-acre site east of Columbus. In addition to the direct employment of 3,000 people, as many as 7,000 construction jobs and tens of thousands of additional jobs for suppliers, partners and other support-related businesses.
    your lumpy tapioca looks like poo...
  • Reply 80 of 85
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    There might be 3,000 construction jobs, but not once the fab complex is up and running.
    A fab has very little to do with "electronics". It is a hazardous chemical plant and the fab itself is but a giant machine.
    Raw materials in, wafers out. And those raw materials are some of the purest, most potent chemicals available.
    As far as providing "tech" jobs, the chip design work isn't being done on-site, nor is the design of the ASML-supplied fab equipment.
    There might be a small workforce to do maintenance, but the goal of modern fab design is to have no humans inside the facility at all.

    This is Intel getting free land, free infrastructure, and taxpayer subsidized workers.

    Labor wise, that is what most modern factories look like:   A steel mill used to employ 4,000, now its 400.

    Or, reading about a mask factory opening up in the U.S.:  the owner was asked how he could compete with foreign labor.  His answer:   "It will be fully automated, there is no labor".

    That may be the future of American manufacturing:  educated, skilled workers running automated processes.
    And, it won't be just factories:  take a future hypothetical of distribution from when a widget arrives in port on the west coast:
    -- automated mechanics transfer it onto a self driving truck
    -- the self-driving truck hauls it to an Amazon warehouse near Cleveland
    -- automated mechanics transfer it into the warehouse and onto a shelf
    -- An Amazon customer places an online order for the widget
    -- automated mechanics load it onto a self driving delivery truck
    -- when it arrives at the customer's house, a drone or robot delivers it from the truck to the person's porch.

    "Look ma!  No Hands!'
    But somebody had to run, manage and maintain all that automated equipment.

    Yeh, it will take decades till that happens.   But, like dozens of coal miners with a picks & shovels first got replaced by drills, wall scrapers and conveyor belts, then that all got replaced by enormous earth moving equipment that just whacks off the top of the mountain and scoops up the coal, it will happen slowly but surely.

    American workers mostly got replaced by automation not foreign competition -- and that trend will be accelerating.  We need to prepare an educated, skilled work force for our future if we are to remain competitive in the world's markets.


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