Apple fined $5.6M for failing to meet Dutch dating app order

Posted:
in iOS
Apple has not done enough to appease a regulator's order concerning App Store payment rules affecting dating apps in the Netherlands, a decision that has now cost the company 5 million euros.




On January 15, Apple confirmed it would abide by an order by the Netherlands Authority for Consumers and Markets (ACM) to allow dating apps operating in the country to use third-party payment mechanisms. In a review of the rule changes, the ACM believes Apple has yet to fully comply with the order.

Apple had until January 15 to provide developers with ways to take payments relating to dating apps through alternative means than the usual in-app purchases mechanism. Apple allowed developers to add an in-app link pointing to a website to complete purchases, and the option to use a third-party payment system.

On Monday, the ACM declared Apple had "failed to satisfy the requirements" of its order. Since Apple failed, this meant it was subject to an initial fine of 5 million euros ($5.6 million). If the order still isn't met, the same fine would be charged weekly, up to a maximum of 50 million euros ($56 million).

The ACM says Apple fails "on several points," with the biggest one being that Apple has "failed to adjust its conditions, as a result of which dating-app providers are still unable to use other payment systems." Currently, Apple states on its support page developers will be able to request one of the two new payment entitlements, but they aren't actually available to use at the moment.

Since dating app providers can "merely express their interest" to Apple, this doesn't satisfy the order.

Apple is also said to have "raised several barriers" for the use of third-party systems. In one example of this, Apple's offering of a choice is at fault since it requires developers to choose either the link or in-app use of alternative payment systems, but not both.

"That is not allowed," writes the ACM. "Providers must be able to choose both options."

It is unclear if the ACM objects to Apple's insistence it should still receive a commission for purchases made using third-party mechanisms in this way.

Apple has been contacted by the ACM that it has failed to satisfy the order's requirements, and reminds that Apple is "still obligated to act in accordance with said order" or face the recurring penalty.

Read on AppleInsider
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 30
    lkrupplkrupp Posts: 9,991member
    When you get too big it’s time to take you down, except if you’re the government. Then it’s the bigger the better. Protecting consumers my ass.
    RudolfGottfriedbloggerblogteejay2012leavingthebiggKTR
  • Reply 2 of 30
    rob53rob53 Posts: 2,954member
    When I go into any store I have one choice for payment--what the store has to offer. I have no ability to use a third-party payment system to pay for my groceries, household items or anything else. How is the Apple App Store any different? I go to this store and use their payment system. How difficult is it to understand? 

    As for specifying dating apps, ?????????? Why are they special? Is the Dutch government trying to make sure Apple doesn't know who's actually using their App Store and apps? I guess it's time to go after Costco and other membership stores along with every grocery store forcing them to allow me to walk into their store, pick up an item, and tell them I'm using an outside payment system. Of course they'll let me walk out the door. /s Yea, right into a police car on its way to jail. I know all of this is being done because governments want to dictate anything they can while not telling anyone how much in bribes they're getting.
    RudolfGottfriedbloggerblogleavingthebigg
  • Reply 3 of 30
    rob53rob53 Posts: 2,954member
    Apple will, of course, appeal. Rightly so, what this authority does is pure arbitrariness and this absurd decision should be completely overturned by an ordinary court as soon as possible. And then we should take a look at which representatives of the authorities use which dating apps during working hours and whether there were certain financial incentives. Either by the owners of the dating service or by this obscure coalition of freeloaders, parasites and spongers.
    Totally agree. Someone is hiding something whether it’s their personal information or whiz paying them off. Stupid thing is Apple doesn’t sell your information but I bet the dating app developer and payment site definitely will. Here comes all the porn email!
    RudolfGottfried
  • Reply 4 of 30
    I love gooooold, the look of it, the tashte of it, the shmell of it.
  • Reply 5 of 30
    saareksaarek Posts: 1,379member
    rob53 said:
    When I go into any store I have one choice for payment--what the store has to offer. I have no ability to use a third-party payment system to pay for my groceries, household items or anything else. How is the Apple App Store any different? I go to this store and use their payment system. How difficult is it to understand? 

    As for specifying dating apps, ?????????? Why are they special? Is the Dutch government trying to make sure Apple doesn't know who's actually using their App Store and apps? I guess it's time to go after Costco and other membership stores along with every grocery store forcing them to allow me to walk into their store, pick up an item, and tell them I'm using an outside payment system. Of course they'll let me walk out the door. /s Yea, right into a police car on its way to jail. I know all of this is being done because governments want to dictate anything they can while not telling anyone how much in bribes they're getting.
    I suppose the difference is that you could just go to an alternate store to buy your groceries.

    But with the iPhone you don’t have that choice.

    Yes, you were aware of that before you bought your iPhone. But ultimately it comes down to choice. If you want an iPhone you have to accept that you have no choice, it’s Apple App Store with exorbitant fees or the highway.

    Apple makes 35-45% mark up on every phone they sell. The 30% markup on the App Store isn’t really justifiable and we all know it.

    Yes, there are benefits to the end user to being locked down to one App Store. But Apple is blowing their chance of keeping iOS apps locked down by their greed. And yes, it is greed. Most companies either make money on the hardware sale or hope to make it up via the software. Apple makes eye watering profits on the hardware and then takes 30% for all software sales. Sadly that’s Tim Cook for you though, he’s obsessed with profits over everything else.
    edited January 24 williamlondon
  • Reply 6 of 30
    lkrupplkrupp Posts: 9,991member
    saarek said:
    rob53 said:
    When I go into any store I have one choice for payment--what the store has to offer. I have no ability to use a third-party payment system to pay for my groceries, household items or anything else. How is the Apple App Store any different? I go to this store and use their payment system. How difficult is it to understand? 

    As for specifying dating apps, ?????????? Why are they special? Is the Dutch government trying to make sure Apple doesn't know who's actually using their App Store and apps? I guess it's time to go after Costco and other membership stores along with every grocery store forcing them to allow me to walk into their store, pick up an item, and tell them I'm using an outside payment system. Of course they'll let me walk out the door. /s Yea, right into a police car on its way to jail. I know all of this is being done because governments want to dictate anything they can while not telling anyone how much in bribes they're getting.
    I suppose the difference is that you could just go to an alternate store to buy your groceries.

    But with the iPhone you don’t have that choice.

    Yes, you were aware of that before you bought your iPhone. But ultimately it comes down to choice. If you want an iPhone you have to accept that you have no choice, it’s Apple App Store with exorbitant fees or the highway.

    Apple makes 35-45% mark up on every phone they sell. The 30% markup on the App Store isn’t really justifiable and we all know it.

    Yes, there are benefits to the end user to being locked down to one App Store. But Apple is blowing their chance of keeping iOS apps locked down by their greed. And yes, it is greed. Most companies either make money on the hardware sale or hope to make it up via the software. Apple makes eye watering profits on the hardware and then takes 30% for all software sales. Sadly that’s Tim Cook for you though, he’s obsessed with profits over everything else.
    It looks like well over a billon users have accepted that they have no choice with Apple, by your dumbass logic anyway. 
    williamlondonStrangeDays
  • Reply 7 of 30
    saareksaarek Posts: 1,379member
    lkrupp said:
    saarek said:
    rob53 said:
    When I go into any store I have one choice for payment--what the store has to offer. I have no ability to use a third-party payment system to pay for my groceries, household items or anything else. How is the Apple App Store any different? I go to this store and use their payment system. How difficult is it to understand? 

    As for specifying dating apps, ?????????? Why are they special? Is the Dutch government trying to make sure Apple doesn't know who's actually using their App Store and apps? I guess it's time to go after Costco and other membership stores along with every grocery store forcing them to allow me to walk into their store, pick up an item, and tell them I'm using an outside payment system. Of course they'll let me walk out the door. /s Yea, right into a police car on its way to jail. I know all of this is being done because governments want to dictate anything they can while not telling anyone how much in bribes they're getting.
    I suppose the difference is that you could just go to an alternate store to buy your groceries.

    But with the iPhone you don’t have that choice.

    Yes, you were aware of that before you bought your iPhone. But ultimately it comes down to choice. If you want an iPhone you have to accept that you have no choice, it’s Apple App Store with exorbitant fees or the highway.

    Apple makes 35-45% mark up on every phone they sell. The 30% markup on the App Store isn’t really justifiable and we all know it.

    Yes, there are benefits to the end user to being locked down to one App Store. But Apple is blowing their chance of keeping iOS apps locked down by their greed. And yes, it is greed. Most companies either make money on the hardware sale or hope to make it up via the software. Apple makes eye watering profits on the hardware and then takes 30% for all software sales. Sadly that’s Tim Cook for you though, he’s obsessed with profits over everything else.
    It looks like well over a billon users have accepted that they have no choice with Apple, by your dumbass logic anyway. 
    Well yes, if they want an iPhone they have no choice in the matter.

    Personally I hope Apple maintains the one App Store and their control over it. I believe there are benefits to me for them doing so. In terms of security, privacy, etc, it’s much better.

    At the same time I can see the way the wind if blowing. If Apple charged a fair percentage on the App Store, say 5-10% this would be a non issue. But there intransigence and greed is causing this to blow up like a grenade they insist in holding in their hand. Surely even somewhere like you, who absolutely refuses on some weird point of principle to see any wrong with Apple, can see the way this is going. They are in an indefensible position and are only there because of Tim Cook’s greed.
    edited January 24 williamlondon
  • Reply 8 of 30
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,067member
    saarek said:
    rob53 said:
    When I go into any store I have one choice for payment--what the store has to offer. I have no ability to use a third-party payment system to pay for my groceries, household items or anything else. How is the Apple App Store any different? I go to this store and use their payment system. How difficult is it to understand? 

    As for specifying dating apps, ?????????? Why are they special? Is the Dutch government trying to make sure Apple doesn't know who's actually using their App Store and apps? I guess it's time to go after Costco and other membership stores along with every grocery store forcing them to allow me to walk into their store, pick up an item, and tell them I'm using an outside payment system. Of course they'll let me walk out the door. /s Yea, right into a police car on its way to jail. I know all of this is being done because governments want to dictate anything they can while not telling anyone how much in bribes they're getting.
    I suppose the difference is that you could just go to an alternate store to buy your groceries.

    But with the iPhone you don’t have that choice.

    Yes, you were aware of that before you bought your iPhone. But ultimately it comes down to choice. If you want an iPhone you have to accept that you have no choice, it’s Apple App Store with exorbitant fees or the highway.

    Apple makes 35-45% mark up on every phone they sell. The 30% markup on the App Store isn’t really justifiable and we all know it.

    Yes, there are benefits to the end user to being locked down to one App Store. But Apple is blowing their chance of keeping iOS apps locked down by their greed. And yes, it is greed. Most companies either make money on the hardware sale or hope to make it up via the software. Apple makes eye watering profits on the hardware and then takes 30% for all software sales. Sadly that’s Tim Cook for you though, he’s obsessed with profits over everything else.
    What exorbitant fees? Certainly not to the end user, apps are dirt cheap. Nor to developers, who are paying the same platform fees as on the other platforms be they Google Play or Xbox. The fee isn't for credit card processing, it's for access to the private platform Apple created out of thin air. It's been referred to as Apple creating the mall, and vendors operating in it have to pay rent to be there and engage in commerce. This rent goes to the building costs, the maintenance costs, and the marketing of the mall to consumers. I don't know why people struggle with this, honestly.

    What's your source on iPhone markup? I've always read they have a 30s margin on their products, but haven't heard it claimed the markup is almost 50%.

    As for the App Store, as somebody who's built & sold products to national retailers, it's much cheaper than what I'm used to. As a wholesaler my products were often at least doubled in mark up before they got to the end consumer. Apple/Google/Microsoft charge 30 or 15%, much less.
    edited January 24 williamlondonroundaboutnow
  • Reply 9 of 30
    rob53rob53 Posts: 2,954member
    saarek said:
    rob53 said:
    When I go into any store I have one choice for payment--what the store has to offer. I have no ability to use a third-party payment system to pay for my groceries, household items or anything else. How is the Apple App Store any different? I go to this store and use their payment system. How difficult is it to understand? 

    As for specifying dating apps, ?????????? Why are they special? Is the Dutch government trying to make sure Apple doesn't know who's actually using their App Store and apps? I guess it's time to go after Costco and other membership stores along with every grocery store forcing them to allow me to walk into their store, pick up an item, and tell them I'm using an outside payment system. Of course they'll let me walk out the door. /s Yea, right into a police car on its way to jail. I know all of this is being done because governments want to dictate anything they can while not telling anyone how much in bribes they're getting.
    I suppose the difference is that you could just go to an alternate store to buy your groceries.

    But with the iPhone you don’t have that choice.

    Yes, you were aware of that before you bought your iPhone. But ultimately it comes down to choice. If you want an iPhone you have to accept that you have no choice, it’s Apple App Store with exorbitant fees or the highway.

    Apple makes 35-45% mark up on every phone they sell. The 30% markup on the App Store isn’t really justifiable and we all know it.

    Yes, there are benefits to the end user to being locked down to one App Store. But Apple is blowing their chance of keeping iOS apps locked down by their greed. And yes, it is greed. Most companies either make money on the hardware sale or hope to make it up via the software. Apple makes eye watering profits on the hardware and then takes 30% for all software sales. Sadly that’s Tim Cook for you though, he’s obsessed with profits over everything else.
    This is complete nonsense. Apple's hardware profit margin is between 25% and 38%, which is perfectly normal for a hardware-focused company. The 30% respectively 15% commission in the App Store is also completely normal if you look at other providers and also consider that this does not only include the pure costs for servers and payment processing, but also costs that arise from recourse and complaint handling, which Apple takes over completely for the developers. Furthermore, this fee also includes intangible values such as trust and security.
    Anyone who claims that simple greed is the main driving force behind Apple or Tim Cook has no idea about the subject. And usually comes instead up with inappropriate analogies.


    I keep seeing a sign on a health food store in town that says "Case discounts at 20% over wholesale," which means regular individual products cost that 20% plus ??? (10-30%). This is the store's charge that supports the operation of the store. Just like the App Store. Anyone, especially idiot judges, who think people should get something for free should lose their position of authority. Apple has costs for the App Store, just like every other business. Like you say, I want someone to prove that no other company or business allows a product to be sold from their "business" for free or anything less than 20-30% over what it costs to make it. Using a third-party payment system that Apple doesn't get any money from would be challenged in every other business. Yes, some items are sold below "cost" (whatever that actually means) as a loss leader just to get people into the store but selling at cost will never keep a company in business (unless it's being used to launder money). 
    RudolfGottfried
  • Reply 10 of 30
    sflocalsflocal Posts: 5,961member
    Just wait till one of these "3rd-party-payment" systems gets hacked.  Apple will be the first one to get blamed.
    williamlondonlkruppRudolfGottfried
  • Reply 11 of 30
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 6,235member
    saarek said:
    rob53 said:
    When I go into any store I have one choice for payment--what the store has to offer. I have no ability to use a third-party payment system to pay for my groceries, household items or anything else. How is the Apple App Store any different? I go to this store and use their payment system. How difficult is it to understand? 

    As for specifying dating apps, ?????????? Why are they special? Is the Dutch government trying to make sure Apple doesn't know who's actually using their App Store and apps? I guess it's time to go after Costco and other membership stores along with every grocery store forcing them to allow me to walk into their store, pick up an item, and tell them I'm using an outside payment system. Of course they'll let me walk out the door. /s Yea, right into a police car on its way to jail. I know all of this is being done because governments want to dictate anything they can while not telling anyone how much in bribes they're getting.
    I suppose the difference is that you could just go to an alternate store to buy your groceries.

    But with the iPhone you don’t have that choice.

    Yes, you were aware of that before you bought your iPhone. But ultimately it comes down to choice. If you want an iPhone you have to accept that you have no choice, it’s Apple App Store with exorbitant fees or the highway.

    Apple makes 35-45% mark up on every phone they sell. The 30% markup on the App Store isn’t really justifiable and we all know it.

    Yes, there are benefits to the end user to being locked down to one App Store. But Apple is blowing their chance of keeping iOS apps locked down by their greed. And yes, it is greed. Most companies either make money on the hardware sale or hope to make it up via the software. Apple makes eye watering profits on the hardware and then takes 30% for all software sales. Sadly that’s Tim Cook for you though, he’s obsessed with profits over everything else.
    This is complete nonsense. Apple's hardware profit margin is between 25% and 38%, which is perfectly normal for a hardware-focused company. The 30% respectively 15% commission in the App Store is also completely normal if you look at other providers and also consider that this does not only include the pure costs for servers and payment processing, but also costs that arise from recourse and complaint handling, which Apple takes over completely for the developers. Furthermore, this fee also includes intangible values such as trust and security.
    Anyone who claims that simple greed is the main driving force behind Apple or Tim Cook has no idea about the subject. And usually comes instead up with inappropriate analogies.


    How many malls do you have to pay to enter? 

    There is an obvious problem with the mall analogy and that's why it fails.

    Once you purchase an iPhone or iPad (gaining access to that mall in the process) your only 'mall' is the 'Apple mall' but there are no stores competing with each other. No. There is only really one store, which not only doesn't have any competition, but also decides for you what you have access to purchase.

    On top of that, no purchaser of iDevices is ever clearly made aware of these limitations. 

    In fact, that is where I believe Apple could run into problems in the EU.

    It's not that the current setup couldn't survive scrutiny but that it might end up being necessary to make purchasers sign acceptance of Apple's control, for it to continue. 

    We'll see. 
    saarek
  • Reply 12 of 30
    lkrupplkrupp Posts: 9,991member
    saarek said:
    lkrupp said:
    saarek said:
    rob53 said:
    When I go into any store I have one choice for payment--what the store has to offer. I have no ability to use a third-party payment system to pay for my groceries, household items or anything else. How is the Apple App Store any different? I go to this store and use their payment system. How difficult is it to understand? 

    As for specifying dating apps, ?????????? Why are they special? Is the Dutch government trying to make sure Apple doesn't know who's actually using their App Store and apps? I guess it's time to go after Costco and other membership stores along with every grocery store forcing them to allow me to walk into their store, pick up an item, and tell them I'm using an outside payment system. Of course they'll let me walk out the door. /s Yea, right into a police car on its way to jail. I know all of this is being done because governments want to dictate anything they can while not telling anyone how much in bribes they're getting.
    I suppose the difference is that you could just go to an alternate store to buy your groceries.

    But with the iPhone you don’t have that choice.

    Yes, you were aware of that before you bought your iPhone. But ultimately it comes down to choice. If you want an iPhone you have to accept that you have no choice, it’s Apple App Store with exorbitant fees or the highway.

    Apple makes 35-45% mark up on every phone they sell. The 30% markup on the App Store isn’t really justifiable and we all know it.

    Yes, there are benefits to the end user to being locked down to one App Store. But Apple is blowing their chance of keeping iOS apps locked down by their greed. And yes, it is greed. Most companies either make money on the hardware sale or hope to make it up via the software. Apple makes eye watering profits on the hardware and then takes 30% for all software sales. Sadly that’s Tim Cook for you though, he’s obsessed with profits over everything else.
    It looks like well over a billon users have accepted that they have no choice with Apple, by your dumbass logic anyway. 
    Well yes, if they want an iPhone they have no choice in the matter.

    Personally I hope Apple maintains the one App Store and their control over it. I believe there are benefits to me for them doing so. In terms of security, privacy, etc, it’s much better.

    At the same time I can see the way the wind if blowing. If Apple charged a fair percentage on the App Store, say 5-10% this would be a non issue. But there intransigence and greed is causing this to blow up like a grenade they insist in holding in their hand. Surely even somewhere like you, who absolutely refuses on some weird point of principle to see any wrong with Apple, can see the way this is going. They are in an indefensible position and are only there because of Tim Cook’s greed.
    And just where did you come up with 5-10% being a “fair percentage”? I know, you just pulled it out of your ass. You claim 30% isn’t justifiable but somehow you know for a fact that 5% is. How did you become the arbiter of fairness? Do you have a PhD in economics with a major in fairness? 
    williamlondonStrangeDaysRudolfGottfried
  • Reply 13 of 30
    lkrupplkrupp Posts: 9,991member
    sflocal said:
    Just wait till one of these "3rd-party-payment" systems gets hacked.  Apple will be the first one to get blamed.
    And sued. Don’t forget that little point.
    williamlondonRudolfGottfried
  • Reply 14 of 30
    chadbagchadbag Posts: 1,670member
    avon b7 said:
    saarek said:
    rob53 said:
    When I go into any store I have one choice for payment--what the store has to offer. I have no ability to use a third-party payment system to pay for my groceries, household items or anything else. How is the Apple App Store any different? I go to this store and use their payment system. How difficult is it to understand? 

    As for specifying dating apps, ?????????? Why are they special? Is the Dutch government trying to make sure Apple doesn't know who's actually using their App Store and apps? I guess it's time to go after Costco and other membership stores along with every grocery store forcing them to allow me to walk into their store, pick up an item, and tell them I'm using an outside payment system. Of course they'll let me walk out the door. /s Yea, right into a police car on its way to jail. I know all of this is being done because governments want to dictate anything they can while not telling anyone how much in bribes they're getting.
    I suppose the difference is that you could just go to an alternate store to buy your groceries.

    But with the iPhone you don’t have that choice.

    Yes, you were aware of that before you bought your iPhone. But ultimately it comes down to choice. If you want an iPhone you have to accept that you have no choice, it’s Apple App Store with exorbitant fees or the highway.

    Apple makes 35-45% mark up on every phone they sell. The 30% markup on the App Store isn’t really justifiable and we all know it.

    Yes, there are benefits to the end user to being locked down to one App Store. But Apple is blowing their chance of keeping iOS apps locked down by their greed. And yes, it is greed. Most companies either make money on the hardware sale or hope to make it up via the software. Apple makes eye watering profits on the hardware and then takes 30% for all software sales. Sadly that’s Tim Cook for you though, he’s obsessed with profits over everything else.
    This is complete nonsense. Apple's hardware profit margin is between 25% and 38%, which is perfectly normal for a hardware-focused company. The 30% respectively 15% commission in the App Store is also completely normal if you look at other providers and also consider that this does not only include the pure costs for servers and payment processing, but also costs that arise from recourse and complaint handling, which Apple takes over completely for the developers. Furthermore, this fee also includes intangible values such as trust and security.
    Anyone who claims that simple greed is the main driving force behind Apple or Tim Cook has no idea about the subject. And usually comes instead up with inappropriate analogies.


    How many malls do you have to pay to enter? 

    There is an obvious problem with the mall analogy and that's why it fails.

    Once you purchase an iPhone or iPad (gaining access to that mall in the process) your only 'mall' is the 'Apple mall' but there are no stores competing with each other. No. There is only really one store, which not only doesn't have any competition, but also decides for you what you have access to purchase.

    On top of that, no purchaser of iDevices is ever clearly made aware of these limitations. 

    In fact, that is where I believe Apple could run into problems in the EU.

    It's not that the current setup couldn't survive scrutiny but that it might end up being necessary to make purchasers sign acceptance of Apple's control, for it to continue. 

    We'll see. 

    This makes no sense.  I do not have to pay to enter the App Store (the mall).  And there are lots of "stores" in the mall competing with each other.  Each developer selling/distributing apps in the App Store IS VERY MUCH competing with the other stores in the mall.

    Your analogy (or complaint about the "mall analogy") makes absolutely NO SENSE.

    williamlondonroundaboutnowRudolfGottfried
  • Reply 15 of 30
    mcdavemcdave Posts: 1,916member
    saarek said:
    lkrupp said:
    saarek said:
    rob53 said:
    When I go into any store I have one choice for payment--what the store has to offer. I have no ability to use a third-party payment system to pay for my groceries, household items or anything else. How is the Apple App Store any different? I go to this store and use their payment system. How difficult is it to understand? 

    As for specifying dating apps, ?????????? Why are they special? Is the Dutch government trying to make sure Apple doesn't know who's actually using their App Store and apps? I guess it's time to go after Costco and other membership stores along with every grocery store forcing them to allow me to walk into their store, pick up an item, and tell them I'm using an outside payment system. Of course they'll let me walk out the door. /s Yea, right into a police car on its way to jail. I know all of this is being done because governments want to dictate anything they can while not telling anyone how much in bribes they're getting.
    I suppose the difference is that you could just go to an alternate store to buy your groceries.

    But with the iPhone you don’t have that choice.

    Yes, you were aware of that before you bought your iPhone. But ultimately it comes down to choice. If you want an iPhone you have to accept that you have no choice, it’s Apple App Store with exorbitant fees or the highway.

    Apple makes 35-45% mark up on every phone they sell. The 30% markup on the App Store isn’t really justifiable and we all know it.

    Yes, there are benefits to the end user to being locked down to one App Store. But Apple is blowing their chance of keeping iOS apps locked down by their greed. And yes, it is greed. Most companies either make money on the hardware sale or hope to make it up via the software. Apple makes eye watering profits on the hardware and then takes 30% for all software sales. Sadly that’s Tim Cook for you though, he’s obsessed with profits over everything else.
    It looks like well over a billon users have accepted that they have no choice with Apple, by your dumbass logic anyway. 
    Well yes, if they want an iPhone they have no choice in the matter.

    Personally I hope Apple maintains the one App Store and their control over it. I believe there are benefits to me for them doing so. In terms of security, privacy, etc, it’s much better.

    At the same time I can see the way the wind if blowing. If Apple charged a fair percentage on the App Store, say 5-10% this would be a non issue. But there intransigence and greed is causing this to blow up like a grenade they insist in holding in their hand. Surely even somewhere like you, who absolutely refuses on some weird point of principle to see any wrong with Apple, can see the way this is going. They are in an indefensible position and are only there because of Tim Cook’s greed.
    How many stores provide the tools for their suppliers to manufacture the products in the first place & how much did you factor in for this? Where does 5-10% come from? Figures of 4% have been floated for Google Play transaction processing service alone.

    People aren’t bothered by the 2-3% savings any store competition will actually bring at the expense full platform integrity.

    Some are addicted to choice, mistakenly believing it affords them control (it doesn’t). But as always these loud, gullible idiots will ruin things for the rest of us.
    williamlondon
  • Reply 16 of 30
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 6,235member
    avon b7 said:
    saarek said:
    rob53 said:
    When I go into any store I have one choice for payment--what the store has to offer. I have no ability to use a third-party payment system to pay for my groceries, household items or anything else. How is the Apple App Store any different? I go to this store and use their payment system. How difficult is it to understand? 

    As for specifying dating apps, ?????????? Why are they special? Is the Dutch government trying to make sure Apple doesn't know who's actually using their App Store and apps? I guess it's time to go after Costco and other membership stores along with every grocery store forcing them to allow me to walk into their store, pick up an item, and tell them I'm using an outside payment system. Of course they'll let me walk out the door. /s Yea, right into a police car on its way to jail. I know all of this is being done because governments want to dictate anything they can while not telling anyone how much in bribes they're getting.
    I suppose the difference is that you could just go to an alternate store to buy your groceries.

    But with the iPhone you don’t have that choice.

    Yes, you were aware of that before you bought your iPhone. But ultimately it comes down to choice. If you want an iPhone you have to accept that you have no choice, it’s Apple App Store with exorbitant fees or the highway.

    Apple makes 35-45% mark up on every phone they sell. The 30% markup on the App Store isn’t really justifiable and we all know it.

    Yes, there are benefits to the end user to being locked down to one App Store. But Apple is blowing their chance of keeping iOS apps locked down by their greed. And yes, it is greed. Most companies either make money on the hardware sale or hope to make it up via the software. Apple makes eye watering profits on the hardware and then takes 30% for all software sales. Sadly that’s Tim Cook for you though, he’s obsessed with profits over everything else.
    This is complete nonsense. Apple's hardware profit margin is between 25% and 38%, which is perfectly normal for a hardware-focused company. The 30% respectively 15% commission in the App Store is also completely normal if you look at other providers and also consider that this does not only include the pure costs for servers and payment processing, but also costs that arise from recourse and complaint handling, which Apple takes over completely for the developers. Furthermore, this fee also includes intangible values such as trust and security.
    Anyone who claims that simple greed is the main driving force behind Apple or Tim Cook has no idea about the subject. And usually comes instead up with inappropriate analogies.


    How many malls do you have to pay to enter? 

    There is an obvious problem with the mall analogy and that's why it fails.

    Once you purchase an iPhone or iPad (gaining access to that mall in the process) your only 'mall' is the 'Apple mall' but there are no stores competing with each other. No. There is only really one store, which not only doesn't have any competition, but also decides for you what you have access to purchase.

    On top of that, no purchaser of iDevices is ever clearly made aware of these limitations. 

    In fact, that is where I believe Apple could run into problems in the EU.

    It's not that the current setup couldn't survive scrutiny but that it might end up being necessary to make purchasers sign acceptance of Apple's control, for it to continue. 

    We'll see. 
    Dude, seriously? There is no competition in Apple's app store? In what parallel universe?
    And as for your mall statements, have you ever seen a sign there that said: "Dear competitor, would you like to place your mall in my mall? No problem, I will provide you with enough space, electricity and water. I will advertise for you and take care of your security. And in the evening I will clean up your mess. Everything for free!"?
    Or in the individual stores signs like: "You get this product much cheaper five blocks away." or "Take what you want and pay for it somewhere else."?
    And for the fact that you have to pay individually in each store of a mall, the store owners pay a fee to the mall owner. It's called RENT.


    There is only one on device store. The App Store. Competition for it is not allowed by Apple. 
  • Reply 17 of 30
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 6,235member
    chadbag said:
    avon b7 said:
    saarek said:
    rob53 said:
    When I go into any store I have one choice for payment--what the store has to offer. I have no ability to use a third-party payment system to pay for my groceries, household items or anything else. How is the Apple App Store any different? I go to this store and use their payment system. How difficult is it to understand? 

    As for specifying dating apps, ?????????? Why are they special? Is the Dutch government trying to make sure Apple doesn't know who's actually using their App Store and apps? I guess it's time to go after Costco and other membership stores along with every grocery store forcing them to allow me to walk into their store, pick up an item, and tell them I'm using an outside payment system. Of course they'll let me walk out the door. /s Yea, right into a police car on its way to jail. I know all of this is being done because governments want to dictate anything they can while not telling anyone how much in bribes they're getting.
    I suppose the difference is that you could just go to an alternate store to buy your groceries.

    But with the iPhone you don’t have that choice.

    Yes, you were aware of that before you bought your iPhone. But ultimately it comes down to choice. If you want an iPhone you have to accept that you have no choice, it’s Apple App Store with exorbitant fees or the highway.

    Apple makes 35-45% mark up on every phone they sell. The 30% markup on the App Store isn’t really justifiable and we all know it.

    Yes, there are benefits to the end user to being locked down to one App Store. But Apple is blowing their chance of keeping iOS apps locked down by their greed. And yes, it is greed. Most companies either make money on the hardware sale or hope to make it up via the software. Apple makes eye watering profits on the hardware and then takes 30% for all software sales. Sadly that’s Tim Cook for you though, he’s obsessed with profits over everything else.
    This is complete nonsense. Apple's hardware profit margin is between 25% and 38%, which is perfectly normal for a hardware-focused company. The 30% respectively 15% commission in the App Store is also completely normal if you look at other providers and also consider that this does not only include the pure costs for servers and payment processing, but also costs that arise from recourse and complaint handling, which Apple takes over completely for the developers. Furthermore, this fee also includes intangible values such as trust and security.
    Anyone who claims that simple greed is the main driving force behind Apple or Tim Cook has no idea about the subject. And usually comes instead up with inappropriate analogies.


    How many malls do you have to pay to enter? 

    There is an obvious problem with the mall analogy and that's why it fails.

    Once you purchase an iPhone or iPad (gaining access to that mall in the process) your only 'mall' is the 'Apple mall' but there are no stores competing with each other. No. There is only really one store, which not only doesn't have any competition, but also decides for you what you have access to purchase.

    On top of that, no purchaser of iDevices is ever clearly made aware of these limitations. 

    In fact, that is where I believe Apple could run into problems in the EU.

    It's not that the current setup couldn't survive scrutiny but that it might end up being necessary to make purchasers sign acceptance of Apple's control, for it to continue. 

    We'll see. 

    This makes no sense.  I do not have to pay to enter the App Store (the mall).  And there are lots of "stores" in the mall competing with each other.  Each developer selling/distributing apps in the App Store IS VERY MUCH competing with the other stores in the mall.

    Your analogy (or complaint about the "mall analogy") makes absolutely NO SENSE.

    Someone is paying to get access to the store because it is platform dependent and the platform comes with a hefty price tag. 

    Developers also pay to create the apps. 

    Having paid to get access to the platform, there is only one App Store (mall, or whatever you want to call it). No competition is allowed. 

    Yes, you can purchase from other mobile app stores, but not without giving up on your Apple device and the financial hit of doing so.


    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 18 of 30
    hriw-annon@xs4all.nl[email protected] Posts: 61unconfirmed, member
    So, meanwhile a judge suspended the fine until 6 weeks after the ACM has responded to Apple's complaints to their verdict.
    That judge mentions that Apple's insistence that their conditions are necessary doesn't make sense given that these don't exist for physical goods and video services.

    (https://uitspraken.rechtspraak.nl/inziendocument?id=ECLI:NL:RBROT:2021:12851)
  • Reply 19 of 30
    hriw-annon@xs4all.nl[email protected] Posts: 61unconfirmed, member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    saarek said:
    rob53 said:
    When I go into any store I have one choice for payment--what the store has to offer. I have no ability to use a third-party payment system to pay for my groceries, household items or anything else. How is the Apple App Store any different? I go to this store and use their payment system. How difficult is it to understand? 

    As for specifying dating apps, ?????????? Why are they special? Is the Dutch government trying to make sure Apple doesn't know who's actually using their App Store and apps? I guess it's time to go after Costco and other membership stores along with every grocery store forcing them to allow me to walk into their store, pick up an item, and tell them I'm using an outside payment system. Of course they'll let me walk out the door. /s Yea, right into a police car on its way to jail. I know all of this is being done because governments want to dictate anything they can while not telling anyone how much in bribes they're getting.
    I suppose the difference is that you could just go to an alternate store to buy your groceries.

    But with the iPhone you don’t have that choice.

    Yes, you were aware of that before you bought your iPhone. But ultimately it comes down to choice. If you want an iPhone you have to accept that you have no choice, it’s Apple App Store with exorbitant fees or the highway.

    Apple makes 35-45% mark up on every phone they sell. The 30% markup on the App Store isn’t really justifiable and we all know it.

    Yes, there are benefits to the end user to being locked down to one App Store. But Apple is blowing their chance of keeping iOS apps locked down by their greed. And yes, it is greed. Most companies either make money on the hardware sale or hope to make it up via the software. Apple makes eye watering profits on the hardware and then takes 30% for all software sales. Sadly that’s Tim Cook for you though, he’s obsessed with profits over everything else.
    This is complete nonsense. Apple's hardware profit margin is between 25% and 38%, which is perfectly normal for a hardware-focused company. The 30% respectively 15% commission in the App Store is also completely normal if you look at other providers and also consider that this does not only include the pure costs for servers and payment processing, but also costs that arise from recourse and complaint handling, which Apple takes over completely for the developers. Furthermore, this fee also includes intangible values such as trust and security.
    Anyone who claims that simple greed is the main driving force behind Apple or Tim Cook has no idea about the subject. And usually comes instead up with inappropriate analogies.


    How many malls do you have to pay to enter? 

    There is an obvious problem with the mall analogy and that's why it fails.

    Once you purchase an iPhone or iPad (gaining access to that mall in the process) your only 'mall' is the 'Apple mall' but there are no stores competing with each other. No. There is only really one store, which not only doesn't have any competition, but also decides for you what you have access to purchase.

    On top of that, no purchaser of iDevices is ever clearly made aware of these limitations. 

    In fact, that is where I believe Apple could run into problems in the EU.

    It's not that the current setup couldn't survive scrutiny but that it might end up being necessary to make purchasers sign acceptance of Apple's control, for it to continue. 

    We'll see. 
    Dude, seriously? There is no competition in Apple's app store? In what parallel universe?
    And as for your mall statements, have you ever seen a sign there that said: "Dear competitor, would you like to place your mall in my mall? No problem, I will provide you with enough space, electricity and water. I will advertise for you and take care of your security. And in the evening I will clean up your mess. Everything for free!"?
    Or in the individual stores signs like: "You get this product much cheaper five blocks away." or "Take what you want and pay for it somewhere else."?
    And for the fact that you have to pay individually in each store of a mall, the store owners pay a fee to the mall owner. It's called RENT.


    There is only one on device store. The App Store. Competition for it is not allowed by Apple. 
    There is the internet and web apps. (Apple does bring that up regularly).

    That will suck, a little or a lot depending in the kind of app, but that is the alternative.
    Why do apps suck less than the internet?
    Because Apple worked and works to make it suck less, for which they want to be paid if you benefit from it.
    If a developer think it's too expensive, because they have a business model that doesn't allow for paying for Apple's services, they shouldn't use Apple's services.

    If you have a product to sell, but you cannot make money if the supermarket takes their margin, and setting up a stall on the street sucks, would it be sensible for a judge to order the supermarket to allow you to set up your own cash register in the supermarket?
    edited January 25 williamlondon
  • Reply 20 of 30
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 6,235member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    saarek said:
    rob53 said:
    When I go into any store I have one choice for payment--what the store has to offer. I have no ability to use a third-party payment system to pay for my groceries, household items or anything else. How is the Apple App Store any different? I go to this store and use their payment system. How difficult is it to understand? 

    As for specifying dating apps, ?????????? Why are they special? Is the Dutch government trying to make sure Apple doesn't know who's actually using their App Store and apps? I guess it's time to go after Costco and other membership stores along with every grocery store forcing them to allow me to walk into their store, pick up an item, and tell them I'm using an outside payment system. Of course they'll let me walk out the door. /s Yea, right into a police car on its way to jail. I know all of this is being done because governments want to dictate anything they can while not telling anyone how much in bribes they're getting.
    I suppose the difference is that you could just go to an alternate store to buy your groceries.

    But with the iPhone you don’t have that choice.

    Yes, you were aware of that before you bought your iPhone. But ultimately it comes down to choice. If you want an iPhone you have to accept that you have no choice, it’s Apple App Store with exorbitant fees or the highway.

    Apple makes 35-45% mark up on every phone they sell. The 30% markup on the App Store isn’t really justifiable and we all know it.

    Yes, there are benefits to the end user to being locked down to one App Store. But Apple is blowing their chance of keeping iOS apps locked down by their greed. And yes, it is greed. Most companies either make money on the hardware sale or hope to make it up via the software. Apple makes eye watering profits on the hardware and then takes 30% for all software sales. Sadly that’s Tim Cook for you though, he’s obsessed with profits over everything else.
    This is complete nonsense. Apple's hardware profit margin is between 25% and 38%, which is perfectly normal for a hardware-focused company. The 30% respectively 15% commission in the App Store is also completely normal if you look at other providers and also consider that this does not only include the pure costs for servers and payment processing, but also costs that arise from recourse and complaint handling, which Apple takes over completely for the developers. Furthermore, this fee also includes intangible values such as trust and security.
    Anyone who claims that simple greed is the main driving force behind Apple or Tim Cook has no idea about the subject. And usually comes instead up with inappropriate analogies.


    How many malls do you have to pay to enter? 

    There is an obvious problem with the mall analogy and that's why it fails.

    Once you purchase an iPhone or iPad (gaining access to that mall in the process) your only 'mall' is the 'Apple mall' but there are no stores competing with each other. No. There is only really one store, which not only doesn't have any competition, but also decides for you what you have access to purchase.

    On top of that, no purchaser of iDevices is ever clearly made aware of these limitations. 

    In fact, that is where I believe Apple could run into problems in the EU.

    It's not that the current setup couldn't survive scrutiny but that it might end up being necessary to make purchasers sign acceptance of Apple's control, for it to continue. 

    We'll see. 
    Dude, seriously? There is no competition in Apple's app store? In what parallel universe?
    And as for your mall statements, have you ever seen a sign there that said: "Dear competitor, would you like to place your mall in my mall? No problem, I will provide you with enough space, electricity and water. I will advertise for you and take care of your security. And in the evening I will clean up your mess. Everything for free!"?
    Or in the individual stores signs like: "You get this product much cheaper five blocks away." or "Take what you want and pay for it somewhere else."?
    And for the fact that you have to pay individually in each store of a mall, the store owners pay a fee to the mall owner. It's called RENT.


    There is only one on device store. The App Store. Competition for it is not allowed by Apple. 
    There is the internet and web apps. (Apple does bring that up regularly).

    That will suck, a little or a lot depending in the kind of app, but that is the alternative.
    Why do apps suck less than the internet?
    Because Apple worked and works to make it suck less, for which they want to be paid if you benefit from it.
    If you think it's too expensive and can't afford it, don't buy it.

    The availability of Web Apps in no way changes anything. 

    There is only one, on device app store and therefore no competition. 

    Buying into an alternative platform is a valid option but if you've already bought into an iDevice, unaware of the finer details Apple's control, it is a little too late. 

    And no one is clearly spelling out the limitations to buyers at purchase time.

    If Apple were to clearly spell the limitations out at purchase time and require customers sign acceptance of the limitations, I doubt it would run into 'competition' related problems, at least with the App Store. 
    edited January 25
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