Apple fined $5.6M for failing to meet Dutch dating app order

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 30
    hriw-annon@xs4all.nl[email protected] Posts: 61unconfirmed, member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    saarek said:
    rob53 said:
    When I go into any store I have one choice for payment--what the store has to offer. I have no ability to use a third-party payment system to pay for my groceries, household items or anything else. How is the Apple App Store any different? I go to this store and use their payment system. How difficult is it to understand? 

    As for specifying dating apps, ?????????? Why are they special? Is the Dutch government trying to make sure Apple doesn't know who's actually using their App Store and apps? I guess it's time to go after Costco and other membership stores along with every grocery store forcing them to allow me to walk into their store, pick up an item, and tell them I'm using an outside payment system. Of course they'll let me walk out the door. /s Yea, right into a police car on its way to jail. I know all of this is being done because governments want to dictate anything they can while not telling anyone how much in bribes they're getting.
    I suppose the difference is that you could just go to an alternate store to buy your groceries.

    But with the iPhone you don’t have that choice.

    Yes, you were aware of that before you bought your iPhone. But ultimately it comes down to choice. If you want an iPhone you have to accept that you have no choice, it’s Apple App Store with exorbitant fees or the highway.

    Apple makes 35-45% mark up on every phone they sell. The 30% markup on the App Store isn’t really justifiable and we all know it.

    Yes, there are benefits to the end user to being locked down to one App Store. But Apple is blowing their chance of keeping iOS apps locked down by their greed. And yes, it is greed. Most companies either make money on the hardware sale or hope to make it up via the software. Apple makes eye watering profits on the hardware and then takes 30% for all software sales. Sadly that’s Tim Cook for you though, he’s obsessed with profits over everything else.
    This is complete nonsense. Apple's hardware profit margin is between 25% and 38%, which is perfectly normal for a hardware-focused company. The 30% respectively 15% commission in the App Store is also completely normal if you look at other providers and also consider that this does not only include the pure costs for servers and payment processing, but also costs that arise from recourse and complaint handling, which Apple takes over completely for the developers. Furthermore, this fee also includes intangible values such as trust and security.
    Anyone who claims that simple greed is the main driving force behind Apple or Tim Cook has no idea about the subject. And usually comes instead up with inappropriate analogies.


    How many malls do you have to pay to enter? 

    There is an obvious problem with the mall analogy and that's why it fails.

    Once you purchase an iPhone or iPad (gaining access to that mall in the process) your only 'mall' is the 'Apple mall' but there are no stores competing with each other. No. There is only really one store, which not only doesn't have any competition, but also decides for you what you have access to purchase.

    On top of that, no purchaser of iDevices is ever clearly made aware of these limitations. 

    In fact, that is where I believe Apple could run into problems in the EU.

    It's not that the current setup couldn't survive scrutiny but that it might end up being necessary to make purchasers sign acceptance of Apple's control, for it to continue. 

    We'll see. 
    Dude, seriously? There is no competition in Apple's app store? In what parallel universe?
    And as for your mall statements, have you ever seen a sign there that said: "Dear competitor, would you like to place your mall in my mall? No problem, I will provide you with enough space, electricity and water. I will advertise for you and take care of your security. And in the evening I will clean up your mess. Everything for free!"?
    Or in the individual stores signs like: "You get this product much cheaper five blocks away." or "Take what you want and pay for it somewhere else."?
    And for the fact that you have to pay individually in each store of a mall, the store owners pay a fee to the mall owner. It's called RENT.


    There is only one on device store. The App Store. Competition for it is not allowed by Apple. 
    There is the internet and web apps. (Apple does bring that up regularly).

    That will suck, a little or a lot depending in the kind of app, but that is the alternative.
    Why do apps suck less than the internet?
    Because Apple worked and works to make it suck less, for which they want to be paid if you benefit from it.
    If you think it's too expensive and can't afford it, don't buy it.

    The availability of Web Apps in no way changes anything. 

    There is only one, on device app store and therefore no competition. 

    Buying into an alternative platform is a valid option but if you've already bought into an iDevice, unaware of the finer details Apple's control, it is a little too late. 

    And no one is clearly spelling out the limitations to buyers at purchase time. 
    This has nothing to do with buyers.
    This is entirely about big developers who make more than a million a year who find Apple's business model gets in the way of their own business model.

    The buyers benefit greatly from Apple's business model, they get a store where more than 85% of the apps are free.
    Apple pays for this by taxing the developers that make lots of money.
    Those that make lots of money don't want to pay their taxes. They don't want to subsidize free apps, some might even be competitors. And because they make lots of money they have staff that can do the bit of promotion and customer relations that Apple does for them a lot better than Apple can, so they don't want to pay for that either.
    App review and privacy are just things that get in their way, so they don't want to pay Apple for that either.
    edited January 2022 ihatescreennameswilliamlondon
  • Reply 22 of 30
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,505member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    saarek said:
    rob53 said:
    When I go into any store I have one choice for payment--what the store has to offer. I have no ability to use a third-party payment system to pay for my groceries, household items or anything else. How is the Apple App Store any different? I go to this store and use their payment system. How difficult is it to understand? 

    As for specifying dating apps, ?????????? Why are they special? Is the Dutch government trying to make sure Apple doesn't know who's actually using their App Store and apps? I guess it's time to go after Costco and other membership stores along with every grocery store forcing them to allow me to walk into their store, pick up an item, and tell them I'm using an outside payment system. Of course they'll let me walk out the door. /s Yea, right into a police car on its way to jail. I know all of this is being done because governments want to dictate anything they can while not telling anyone how much in bribes they're getting.
    I suppose the difference is that you could just go to an alternate store to buy your groceries.

    But with the iPhone you don’t have that choice.

    Yes, you were aware of that before you bought your iPhone. But ultimately it comes down to choice. If you want an iPhone you have to accept that you have no choice, it’s Apple App Store with exorbitant fees or the highway.

    Apple makes 35-45% mark up on every phone they sell. The 30% markup on the App Store isn’t really justifiable and we all know it.

    Yes, there are benefits to the end user to being locked down to one App Store. But Apple is blowing their chance of keeping iOS apps locked down by their greed. And yes, it is greed. Most companies either make money on the hardware sale or hope to make it up via the software. Apple makes eye watering profits on the hardware and then takes 30% for all software sales. Sadly that’s Tim Cook for you though, he’s obsessed with profits over everything else.
    This is complete nonsense. Apple's hardware profit margin is between 25% and 38%, which is perfectly normal for a hardware-focused company. The 30% respectively 15% commission in the App Store is also completely normal if you look at other providers and also consider that this does not only include the pure costs for servers and payment processing, but also costs that arise from recourse and complaint handling, which Apple takes over completely for the developers. Furthermore, this fee also includes intangible values such as trust and security.
    Anyone who claims that simple greed is the main driving force behind Apple or Tim Cook has no idea about the subject. And usually comes instead up with inappropriate analogies.


    How many malls do you have to pay to enter? 

    There is an obvious problem with the mall analogy and that's why it fails.

    Once you purchase an iPhone or iPad (gaining access to that mall in the process) your only 'mall' is the 'Apple mall' but there are no stores competing with each other. No. There is only really one store, which not only doesn't have any competition, but also decides for you what you have access to purchase.

    On top of that, no purchaser of iDevices is ever clearly made aware of these limitations. 

    In fact, that is where I believe Apple could run into problems in the EU.

    It's not that the current setup couldn't survive scrutiny but that it might end up being necessary to make purchasers sign acceptance of Apple's control, for it to continue. 

    We'll see. 
    Dude, seriously? There is no competition in Apple's app store? In what parallel universe?
    And as for your mall statements, have you ever seen a sign there that said: "Dear competitor, would you like to place your mall in my mall? No problem, I will provide you with enough space, electricity and water. I will advertise for you and take care of your security. And in the evening I will clean up your mess. Everything for free!"?
    Or in the individual stores signs like: "You get this product much cheaper five blocks away." or "Take what you want and pay for it somewhere else."?
    And for the fact that you have to pay individually in each store of a mall, the store owners pay a fee to the mall owner. It's called RENT.


    There is only one on device store. The App Store. Competition for it is not allowed by Apple. 
    There is the internet and web apps. (Apple does bring that up regularly).

    That will suck, a little or a lot depending in the kind of app, but that is the alternative.
    Why do apps suck less than the internet?
    Because Apple worked and works to make it suck less, for which they want to be paid if you benefit from it.
    If you think it's too expensive and can't afford it, don't buy it.

    The availability of Web Apps in no way changes anything. 

    There is only one, on device app store and therefore no competition. 

    Buying into an alternative platform is a valid option but if you've already bought into an iDevice, unaware of the finer details Apple's control, it is a little too late. 

    And no one is clearly spelling out the limitations to buyers at purchase time. 
    This has nothing to do with buyers.
    This is entirely about big developers who make more than a million a year who find Apple's business model gets in the way of their own business model.
    No. I was replying to the analogy of the App Store as a mall. 

    I'm not talking specifically about developers (big or small). 
  • Reply 23 of 30
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    lkrupp said:
    saarek said:
    lkrupp said:
    saarek said:
    rob53 said:
    When I go into any store I have one choice for payment--what the store has to offer. I have no ability to use a third-party payment system to pay for my groceries, household items or anything else. How is the Apple App Store any different? I go to this store and use their payment system. How difficult is it to understand? 

    As for specifying dating apps, ?????????? Why are they special? Is the Dutch government trying to make sure Apple doesn't know who's actually using their App Store and apps? I guess it's time to go after Costco and other membership stores along with every grocery store forcing them to allow me to walk into their store, pick up an item, and tell them I'm using an outside payment system. Of course they'll let me walk out the door. /s Yea, right into a police car on its way to jail. I know all of this is being done because governments want to dictate anything they can while not telling anyone how much in bribes they're getting.
    I suppose the difference is that you could just go to an alternate store to buy your groceries.

    But with the iPhone you don’t have that choice.

    Yes, you were aware of that before you bought your iPhone. But ultimately it comes down to choice. If you want an iPhone you have to accept that you have no choice, it’s Apple App Store with exorbitant fees or the highway.

    Apple makes 35-45% mark up on every phone they sell. The 30% markup on the App Store isn’t really justifiable and we all know it.

    Yes, there are benefits to the end user to being locked down to one App Store. But Apple is blowing their chance of keeping iOS apps locked down by their greed. And yes, it is greed. Most companies either make money on the hardware sale or hope to make it up via the software. Apple makes eye watering profits on the hardware and then takes 30% for all software sales. Sadly that’s Tim Cook for you though, he’s obsessed with profits over everything else.
    It looks like well over a billon users have accepted that they have no choice with Apple, by your dumbass logic anyway. 
    Well yes, if they want an iPhone they have no choice in the matter.

    Personally I hope Apple maintains the one App Store and their control over it. I believe there are benefits to me for them doing so. In terms of security, privacy, etc, it’s much better.

    At the same time I can see the way the wind if blowing. If Apple charged a fair percentage on the App Store, say 5-10% this would be a non issue. But there intransigence and greed is causing this to blow up like a grenade they insist in holding in their hand. Surely even somewhere like you, who absolutely refuses on some weird point of principle to see any wrong with Apple, can see the way this is going. They are in an indefensible position and are only there because of Tim Cook’s greed.
    And just where did you come up with 5-10% being a “fair percentage”? I know, you just pulled it out of your ass. You claim 30% isn’t justifiable but somehow you know for a fact that 5% is. How did you become the arbiter of fairness? Do you have a PhD in economics with a major in fairness? 
    Or, you could pay attention to what Apple themselves think: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-05-03/apple-s-schiller-floated-cutting-app-store-fees-a-decade-ago
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 24 of 30
    hriw-annon@xs4all.nl[email protected] Posts: 61unconfirmed, member
    crowley said:
    lkrupp said:
    saarek said:
    lkrupp said:
    saarek said:
    rob53 said:
    When I go into any store I have one choice for payment--what the store has to offer. I have no ability to use a third-party payment system to pay for my groceries, household items or anything else. How is the Apple App Store any different? I go to this store and use their payment system. How difficult is it to understand? 

    As for specifying dating apps, ?????????? Why are they special? Is the Dutch government trying to make sure Apple doesn't know who's actually using their App Store and apps? I guess it's time to go after Costco and other membership stores along with every grocery store forcing them to allow me to walk into their store, pick up an item, and tell them I'm using an outside payment system. Of course they'll let me walk out the door. /s Yea, right into a police car on its way to jail. I know all of this is being done because governments want to dictate anything they can while not telling anyone how much in bribes they're getting.
    I suppose the difference is that you could just go to an alternate store to buy your groceries.

    But with the iPhone you don’t have that choice.

    Yes, you were aware of that before you bought your iPhone. But ultimately it comes down to choice. If you want an iPhone you have to accept that you have no choice, it’s Apple App Store with exorbitant fees or the highway.

    Apple makes 35-45% mark up on every phone they sell. The 30% markup on the App Store isn’t really justifiable and we all know it.

    Yes, there are benefits to the end user to being locked down to one App Store. But Apple is blowing their chance of keeping iOS apps locked down by their greed. And yes, it is greed. Most companies either make money on the hardware sale or hope to make it up via the software. Apple makes eye watering profits on the hardware and then takes 30% for all software sales. Sadly that’s Tim Cook for you though, he’s obsessed with profits over everything else.
    It looks like well over a billon users have accepted that they have no choice with Apple, by your dumbass logic anyway. 
    Well yes, if they want an iPhone they have no choice in the matter.

    Personally I hope Apple maintains the one App Store and their control over it. I believe there are benefits to me for them doing so. In terms of security, privacy, etc, it’s much better.

    At the same time I can see the way the wind if blowing. If Apple charged a fair percentage on the App Store, say 5-10% this would be a non issue. But there intransigence and greed is causing this to blow up like a grenade they insist in holding in their hand. Surely even somewhere like you, who absolutely refuses on some weird point of principle to see any wrong with Apple, can see the way this is going. They are in an indefensible position and are only there because of Tim Cook’s greed.
    And just where did you come up with 5-10% being a “fair percentage”? I know, you just pulled it out of your ass. You claim 30% isn’t justifiable but somehow you know for a fact that 5% is. How did you become the arbiter of fairness? Do you have a PhD in economics with a major in fairness? 
    Or, you could pay attention to what Apple themselves think: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-05-03/apple-s-schiller-floated-cutting-app-store-fees-a-decade-ago
    By my own guessimates, based on the numbers that are publicly available, 10% would be about what Apple needs to run the App Store at break even.

    edited January 2022
  • Reply 25 of 30
    hriw-annon@xs4all.nl[email protected] Posts: 61unconfirmed, member
    crowley said:
    lkrupp said:
    saarek said:
    lkrupp said:
    saarek said:
    rob53 said:
    When I go into any store I have one choice for payment--what the store has to offer. I have no ability to use a third-party payment system to pay for my groceries, household items or anything else. How is the Apple App Store any different? I go to this store and use their payment system. How difficult is it to understand? 

    As for specifying dating apps, ?????????? Why are they special? Is the Dutch government trying to make sure Apple doesn't know who's actually using their App Store and apps? I guess it's time to go after Costco and other membership stores along with every grocery store forcing them to allow me to walk into their store, pick up an item, and tell them I'm using an outside payment system. Of course they'll let me walk out the door. /s Yea, right into a police car on its way to jail. I know all of this is being done because governments want to dictate anything they can while not telling anyone how much in bribes they're getting.
    I suppose the difference is that you could just go to an alternate store to buy your groceries.

    But with the iPhone you don’t have that choice.

    Yes, you were aware of that before you bought your iPhone. But ultimately it comes down to choice. If you want an iPhone you have to accept that you have no choice, it’s Apple App Store with exorbitant fees or the highway.

    Apple makes 35-45% mark up on every phone they sell. The 30% markup on the App Store isn’t really justifiable and we all know it.

    Yes, there are benefits to the end user to being locked down to one App Store. But Apple is blowing their chance of keeping iOS apps locked down by their greed. And yes, it is greed. Most companies either make money on the hardware sale or hope to make it up via the software. Apple makes eye watering profits on the hardware and then takes 30% for all software sales. Sadly that’s Tim Cook for you though, he’s obsessed with profits over everything else.
    It looks like well over a billon users have accepted that they have no choice with Apple, by your dumbass logic anyway. 
    Well yes, if they want an iPhone they have no choice in the matter.

    Personally I hope Apple maintains the one App Store and their control over it. I believe there are benefits to me for them doing so. In terms of security, privacy, etc, it’s much better.

    At the same time I can see the way the wind if blowing. If Apple charged a fair percentage on the App Store, say 5-10% this would be a non issue. But there intransigence and greed is causing this to blow up like a grenade they insist in holding in their hand. Surely even somewhere like you, who absolutely refuses on some weird point of principle to see any wrong with Apple, can see the way this is going. They are in an indefensible position and are only there because of Tim Cook’s greed.
    And just where did you come up with 5-10% being a “fair percentage”? I know, you just pulled it out of your ass. You claim 30% isn’t justifiable but somehow you know for a fact that 5% is. How did you become the arbiter of fairness? Do you have a PhD in economics with a major in fairness? 
    Or, you could pay attention to what Apple themselves think: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-05-03/apple-s-schiller-floated-cutting-app-store-fees-a-decade-ago
    This is about Schiller floating the idea that 1 billion in profit would be enough. Phil Schiller is a pretty important guy at Apple but he is not "Apple themselves". Apple decided to not go with Schiller's idea but instead decided to do more, more languages, more curation etc, and charge what that is worth. They know it's worth that because developers pay it. Some billion dollar companies disagree.
    edited January 2022
  • Reply 26 of 30
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    saarek said:
    rob53 said:
    When I go into any store I have one choice for payment--what the store has to offer. I have no ability to use a third-party payment system to pay for my groceries, household items or anything else. How is the Apple App Store any different? I go to this store and use their payment system. How difficult is it to understand? 

    As for specifying dating apps, ?????????? Why are they special? Is the Dutch government trying to make sure Apple doesn't know who's actually using their App Store and apps? I guess it's time to go after Costco and other membership stores along with every grocery store forcing them to allow me to walk into their store, pick up an item, and tell them I'm using an outside payment system. Of course they'll let me walk out the door. /s Yea, right into a police car on its way to jail. I know all of this is being done because governments want to dictate anything they can while not telling anyone how much in bribes they're getting.
    I suppose the difference is that you could just go to an alternate store to buy your groceries.

    But with the iPhone you don’t have that choice.

    Yes, you were aware of that before you bought your iPhone. But ultimately it comes down to choice. If you want an iPhone you have to accept that you have no choice, it’s Apple App Store with exorbitant fees or the highway.

    Apple makes 35-45% mark up on every phone they sell. The 30% markup on the App Store isn’t really justifiable and we all know it.

    Yes, there are benefits to the end user to being locked down to one App Store. But Apple is blowing their chance of keeping iOS apps locked down by their greed. And yes, it is greed. Most companies either make money on the hardware sale or hope to make it up via the software. Apple makes eye watering profits on the hardware and then takes 30% for all software sales. Sadly that’s Tim Cook for you though, he’s obsessed with profits over everything else.
    This is complete nonsense. Apple's hardware profit margin is between 25% and 38%, which is perfectly normal for a hardware-focused company. The 30% respectively 15% commission in the App Store is also completely normal if you look at other providers and also consider that this does not only include the pure costs for servers and payment processing, but also costs that arise from recourse and complaint handling, which Apple takes over completely for the developers. Furthermore, this fee also includes intangible values such as trust and security.
    Anyone who claims that simple greed is the main driving force behind Apple or Tim Cook has no idea about the subject. And usually comes instead up with inappropriate analogies.


    How many malls do you have to pay to enter? 

    There is an obvious problem with the mall analogy and that's why it fails.

    Once you purchase an iPhone or iPad (gaining access to that mall in the process) your only 'mall' is the 'Apple mall' but there are no stores competing with each other. No. There is only really one store, which not only doesn't have any competition, but also decides for you what you have access to purchase.

    On top of that, no purchaser of iDevices is ever clearly made aware of these limitations. 

    In fact, that is where I believe Apple could run into problems in the EU.

    It's not that the current setup couldn't survive scrutiny but that it might end up being necessary to make purchasers sign acceptance of Apple's control, for it to continue. 

    We'll see. 
    Dude, seriously? There is no competition in Apple's app store? In what parallel universe?
    And as for your mall statements, have you ever seen a sign there that said: "Dear competitor, would you like to place your mall in my mall? No problem, I will provide you with enough space, electricity and water. I will advertise for you and take care of your security. And in the evening I will clean up your mess. Everything for free!"?
    Or in the individual stores signs like: "You get this product much cheaper five blocks away." or "Take what you want and pay for it somewhere else."?
    And for the fact that you have to pay individually in each store of a mall, the store owners pay a fee to the mall owner. It's called RENT.


    There is only one on device store. The App Store. Competition for it is not allowed by Apple. 
    There is the internet and web apps. (Apple does bring that up regularly).

    That will suck, a little or a lot depending in the kind of app, but that is the alternative.
    Why do apps suck less than the internet?
    Because Apple worked and works to make it suck less, for which they want to be paid if you benefit from it.
    If you think it's too expensive and can't afford it, don't buy it.

    The availability of Web Apps in no way changes anything. 

    There is only one, on device app store and therefore no competition. 

    Buying into an alternative platform is a valid option but if you've already bought into an iDevice, unaware of the finer details Apple's control, it is a little too late. 

    And no one is clearly spelling out the limitations to buyers at purchase time. 
    This has nothing to do with buyers.
    This is entirely about big developers who make more than a million a year who find Apple's business model gets in the way of their own business model.

    The buyers benefit greatly from Apple's business model, they get a store where more than 85% of the apps are free.
    Apple pays for this by taxing the developers that make lots of money.
    Those that make lots of money don't want to pay their taxes. They don't want to subsidize free apps, some might even be competitors. And because they make lots of money they have staff that can do the bit of promotion and customer relations that Apple does for them a lot better than Apple can, so they don't want to pay for that either.
    App review and privacy are just things that get in their way, so they don't want to pay Apple for that either.

    Yep!  Follow the money...

    And, I am still curious why this only applies to dating apps?  I suspect it may be the prostitution industry (which is legal there) behind all of it.
  • Reply 27 of 30
    hriw-annon@xs4all.nl[email protected] Posts: 61unconfirmed, member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    saarek said:
    rob53 said:
    When I go into any store I have one choice for payment--what the store has to offer. I have no ability to use a third-party payment system to pay for my groceries, household items or anything else. How is the Apple App Store any different? I go to this store and use their payment system. How difficult is it to understand? 

    As for specifying dating apps, ?????????? Why are they special? Is the Dutch government trying to make sure Apple doesn't know who's actually using their App Store and apps? I guess it's time to go after Costco and other membership stores along with every grocery store forcing them to allow me to walk into their store, pick up an item, and tell them I'm using an outside payment system. Of course they'll let me walk out the door. /s Yea, right into a police car on its way to jail. I know all of this is being done because governments want to dictate anything they can while not telling anyone how much in bribes they're getting.
    I suppose the difference is that you could just go to an alternate store to buy your groceries.

    But with the iPhone you don’t have that choice.

    Yes, you were aware of that before you bought your iPhone. But ultimately it comes down to choice. If you want an iPhone you have to accept that you have no choice, it’s Apple App Store with exorbitant fees or the highway.

    Apple makes 35-45% mark up on every phone they sell. The 30% markup on the App Store isn’t really justifiable and we all know it.

    Yes, there are benefits to the end user to being locked down to one App Store. But Apple is blowing their chance of keeping iOS apps locked down by their greed. And yes, it is greed. Most companies either make money on the hardware sale or hope to make it up via the software. Apple makes eye watering profits on the hardware and then takes 30% for all software sales. Sadly that’s Tim Cook for you though, he’s obsessed with profits over everything else.
    This is complete nonsense. Apple's hardware profit margin is between 25% and 38%, which is perfectly normal for a hardware-focused company. The 30% respectively 15% commission in the App Store is also completely normal if you look at other providers and also consider that this does not only include the pure costs for servers and payment processing, but also costs that arise from recourse and complaint handling, which Apple takes over completely for the developers. Furthermore, this fee also includes intangible values such as trust and security.
    Anyone who claims that simple greed is the main driving force behind Apple or Tim Cook has no idea about the subject. And usually comes instead up with inappropriate analogies.


    How many malls do you have to pay to enter? 

    There is an obvious problem with the mall analogy and that's why it fails.

    Once you purchase an iPhone or iPad (gaining access to that mall in the process) your only 'mall' is the 'Apple mall' but there are no stores competing with each other. No. There is only really one store, which not only doesn't have any competition, but also decides for you what you have access to purchase.

    On top of that, no purchaser of iDevices is ever clearly made aware of these limitations. 

    In fact, that is where I believe Apple could run into problems in the EU.

    It's not that the current setup couldn't survive scrutiny but that it might end up being necessary to make purchasers sign acceptance of Apple's control, for it to continue. 

    We'll see. 
    Dude, seriously? There is no competition in Apple's app store? In what parallel universe?
    And as for your mall statements, have you ever seen a sign there that said: "Dear competitor, would you like to place your mall in my mall? No problem, I will provide you with enough space, electricity and water. I will advertise for you and take care of your security. And in the evening I will clean up your mess. Everything for free!"?
    Or in the individual stores signs like: "You get this product much cheaper five blocks away." or "Take what you want and pay for it somewhere else."?
    And for the fact that you have to pay individually in each store of a mall, the store owners pay a fee to the mall owner. It's called RENT.


    There is only one on device store. The App Store. Competition for it is not allowed by Apple. 
    There is the internet and web apps. (Apple does bring that up regularly).

    That will suck, a little or a lot depending in the kind of app, but that is the alternative.
    Why do apps suck less than the internet?
    Because Apple worked and works to make it suck less, for which they want to be paid if you benefit from it.
    If you think it's too expensive and can't afford it, don't buy it.

    The availability of Web Apps in no way changes anything. 

    There is only one, on device app store and therefore no competition. 

    Buying into an alternative platform is a valid option but if you've already bought into an iDevice, unaware of the finer details Apple's control, it is a little too late. 

    And no one is clearly spelling out the limitations to buyers at purchase time. 
    This has nothing to do with buyers.
    This is entirely about big developers who make more than a million a year who find Apple's business model gets in the way of their own business model.

    The buyers benefit greatly from Apple's business model, they get a store where more than 85% of the apps are free.
    Apple pays for this by taxing the developers that make lots of money.
    Those that make lots of money don't want to pay their taxes. They don't want to subsidize free apps, some might even be competitors. And because they make lots of money they have staff that can do the bit of promotion and customer relations that Apple does for them a lot better than Apple can, so they don't want to pay for that either.
    App review and privacy are just things that get in their way, so they don't want to pay Apple for that either.

    Yep!  Follow the money...

    And, I am still curious why this only applies to dating apps?  I suspect it may be the prostitution industry (which is legal there) behind all of it.
    Dating app Tinder complained to the Authority for Consumers and Competition that their business model does not work with Apple's terms and conditions.
    This applies to other dating apps too, so they made it about dating apps not Tinder. Apple says the terms exist for technical reasons and protection of their customers.
    The judge didn't buy that because the terms don't apply when selling physical goods or videos, so why not dating apps?

    So, the business model of dating apps is incompatible with Apple's terms, and that is not fair.
    And it is Apple's fault because Apple is powerful.
    Or something.

    Is Apple allowed to decide who pays and who doesn't is something the regulators and lawmakers need to figure out.
    Or maybe not. Maybe they are just under pressure to be seen to be doing something about the "Big Tech Is Too Powerful!" problem.
    Whether what they propose or do is dumb or smart is secondary.

    I can see the bigger issue going in a direction that makes everything worse for everybody.
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 28 of 30
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    saarek said:
    rob53 said:
    When I go into any store I have one choice for payment--what the store has to offer. I have no ability to use a third-party payment system to pay for my groceries, household items or anything else. How is the Apple App Store any different? I go to this store and use their payment system. How difficult is it to understand? 

    As for specifying dating apps, ?????????? Why are they special? Is the Dutch government trying to make sure Apple doesn't know who's actually using their App Store and apps? I guess it's time to go after Costco and other membership stores along with every grocery store forcing them to allow me to walk into their store, pick up an item, and tell them I'm using an outside payment system. Of course they'll let me walk out the door. /s Yea, right into a police car on its way to jail. I know all of this is being done because governments want to dictate anything they can while not telling anyone how much in bribes they're getting.
    I suppose the difference is that you could just go to an alternate store to buy your groceries.

    But with the iPhone you don’t have that choice.

    Yes, you were aware of that before you bought your iPhone. But ultimately it comes down to choice. If you want an iPhone you have to accept that you have no choice, it’s Apple App Store with exorbitant fees or the highway.

    Apple makes 35-45% mark up on every phone they sell. The 30% markup on the App Store isn’t really justifiable and we all know it.

    Yes, there are benefits to the end user to being locked down to one App Store. But Apple is blowing their chance of keeping iOS apps locked down by their greed. And yes, it is greed. Most companies either make money on the hardware sale or hope to make it up via the software. Apple makes eye watering profits on the hardware and then takes 30% for all software sales. Sadly that’s Tim Cook for you though, he’s obsessed with profits over everything else.
    This is complete nonsense. Apple's hardware profit margin is between 25% and 38%, which is perfectly normal for a hardware-focused company. The 30% respectively 15% commission in the App Store is also completely normal if you look at other providers and also consider that this does not only include the pure costs for servers and payment processing, but also costs that arise from recourse and complaint handling, which Apple takes over completely for the developers. Furthermore, this fee also includes intangible values such as trust and security.
    Anyone who claims that simple greed is the main driving force behind Apple or Tim Cook has no idea about the subject. And usually comes instead up with inappropriate analogies.


    How many malls do you have to pay to enter? 

    There is an obvious problem with the mall analogy and that's why it fails.

    Once you purchase an iPhone or iPad (gaining access to that mall in the process) your only 'mall' is the 'Apple mall' but there are no stores competing with each other. No. There is only really one store, which not only doesn't have any competition, but also decides for you what you have access to purchase.

    On top of that, no purchaser of iDevices is ever clearly made aware of these limitations. 

    In fact, that is where I believe Apple could run into problems in the EU.

    It's not that the current setup couldn't survive scrutiny but that it might end up being necessary to make purchasers sign acceptance of Apple's control, for it to continue. 

    We'll see. 
    Dude, seriously? There is no competition in Apple's app store? In what parallel universe?
    And as for your mall statements, have you ever seen a sign there that said: "Dear competitor, would you like to place your mall in my mall? No problem, I will provide you with enough space, electricity and water. I will advertise for you and take care of your security. And in the evening I will clean up your mess. Everything for free!"?
    Or in the individual stores signs like: "You get this product much cheaper five blocks away." or "Take what you want and pay for it somewhere else."?
    And for the fact that you have to pay individually in each store of a mall, the store owners pay a fee to the mall owner. It's called RENT.


    There is only one on device store. The App Store. Competition for it is not allowed by Apple. 
    There is the internet and web apps. (Apple does bring that up regularly).

    That will suck, a little or a lot depending in the kind of app, but that is the alternative.
    Why do apps suck less than the internet?
    Because Apple worked and works to make it suck less, for which they want to be paid if you benefit from it.
    If you think it's too expensive and can't afford it, don't buy it.

    The availability of Web Apps in no way changes anything. 

    There is only one, on device app store and therefore no competition. 

    Buying into an alternative platform is a valid option but if you've already bought into an iDevice, unaware of the finer details Apple's control, it is a little too late. 

    And no one is clearly spelling out the limitations to buyers at purchase time. 
    This has nothing to do with buyers.
    This is entirely about big developers who make more than a million a year who find Apple's business model gets in the way of their own business model.

    The buyers benefit greatly from Apple's business model, they get a store where more than 85% of the apps are free.
    Apple pays for this by taxing the developers that make lots of money.
    Those that make lots of money don't want to pay their taxes. They don't want to subsidize free apps, some might even be competitors. And because they make lots of money they have staff that can do the bit of promotion and customer relations that Apple does for them a lot better than Apple can, so they don't want to pay for that either.
    App review and privacy are just things that get in their way, so they don't want to pay Apple for that either.

    Yep!  Follow the money...

    And, I am still curious why this only applies to dating apps?  I suspect it may be the prostitution industry (which is legal there) behind all of it.
    Dating app Tinder complained to the Authority for Consumers and Competition that their business model does not work with Apple's terms and conditions.
    This applies to other dating apps too, so they made it about dating apps not Tinder. Apple says the terms exist for technical reasons and protection of their customers.
    The judge didn't buy that because the terms don't apply when selling physical goods or videos, so why not dating apps?

    So, the business model of dating apps is incompatible with Apple's terms, and that is not fair.
    And it is Apple's fault because Apple is powerful.
    Or something.

    Is Apple allowed to decide who pays and who doesn't is something the regulators and lawmakers need to figure out.
    Or maybe not. Maybe they are just under pressure to be seen to be doing something about the "Big Tech Is Too Powerful!" problem.
    Whether what they propose or do is dumb or smart is secondary.

    I can see the bigger issue going in a direction that makes everything worse for everybody.

    Thanks!  That makes sense -- where it didn't before.
    So yeh, follow the money -- but now I know where the trail leads:  straight to another big hitter using the government to enrich themselves.
  • Reply 29 of 30
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    crowley said:
    lkrupp said:
    saarek said:
    lkrupp said:
    saarek said:
    rob53 said:
    When I go into any store I have one choice for payment--what the store has to offer. I have no ability to use a third-party payment system to pay for my groceries, household items or anything else. How is the Apple App Store any different? I go to this store and use their payment system. How difficult is it to understand? 

    As for specifying dating apps, ?????????? Why are they special? Is the Dutch government trying to make sure Apple doesn't know who's actually using their App Store and apps? I guess it's time to go after Costco and other membership stores along with every grocery store forcing them to allow me to walk into their store, pick up an item, and tell them I'm using an outside payment system. Of course they'll let me walk out the door. /s Yea, right into a police car on its way to jail. I know all of this is being done because governments want to dictate anything they can while not telling anyone how much in bribes they're getting.
    I suppose the difference is that you could just go to an alternate store to buy your groceries.

    But with the iPhone you don’t have that choice.

    Yes, you were aware of that before you bought your iPhone. But ultimately it comes down to choice. If you want an iPhone you have to accept that you have no choice, it’s Apple App Store with exorbitant fees or the highway.

    Apple makes 35-45% mark up on every phone they sell. The 30% markup on the App Store isn’t really justifiable and we all know it.

    Yes, there are benefits to the end user to being locked down to one App Store. But Apple is blowing their chance of keeping iOS apps locked down by their greed. And yes, it is greed. Most companies either make money on the hardware sale or hope to make it up via the software. Apple makes eye watering profits on the hardware and then takes 30% for all software sales. Sadly that’s Tim Cook for you though, he’s obsessed with profits over everything else.
    It looks like well over a billon users have accepted that they have no choice with Apple, by your dumbass logic anyway. 
    Well yes, if they want an iPhone they have no choice in the matter.

    Personally I hope Apple maintains the one App Store and their control over it. I believe there are benefits to me for them doing so. In terms of security, privacy, etc, it’s much better.

    At the same time I can see the way the wind if blowing. If Apple charged a fair percentage on the App Store, say 5-10% this would be a non issue. But there intransigence and greed is causing this to blow up like a grenade they insist in holding in their hand. Surely even somewhere like you, who absolutely refuses on some weird point of principle to see any wrong with Apple, can see the way this is going. They are in an indefensible position and are only there because of Tim Cook’s greed.
    And just where did you come up with 5-10% being a “fair percentage”? I know, you just pulled it out of your ass. You claim 30% isn’t justifiable but somehow you know for a fact that 5% is. How did you become the arbiter of fairness? Do you have a PhD in economics with a major in fairness? 
    Or, you could pay attention to what Apple themselves think: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-05-03/apple-s-schiller-floated-cutting-app-store-fees-a-decade-ago
    This is about Schiller floating the idea that 1 billion in profit would be enough. Phil Schiller is a pretty important guy at Apple but he is not "Apple themselves". Apple decided to not go with Schiller's idea but instead decided to do more, more languages, more curation etc, and charge what that is worth. They know it's worth that because developers pay it. Some billion dollar companies disagree.
    "They knows it's worth that because developers pay it" except for the developers that don't pay it and the other developers who work out ways to get around it, and not to mention all the developers that pay it but  are complaining about it and seeking legal remedy.

    So not really a great foundation for knowledge.
    edited January 2022 muthuk_vanalingam
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