Microsoft's new app store pledge preserves its walled garden on Xbox

2

Comments

  • Reply 21 of 43
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,251member
    So… Microsoft copies Apples principles and then subtlety jabs at them? LOL

    Then trying to make their purchase of activision seem like a benefit for gamers? 

    This is just Microsoft trying to copy a successful formula from Apple and spin it with double talk from their butts. Again. 

    Apple has done everything to make a fair, secure, and open App Store that people actually like and choose over competitors. That’s a good thing not a bad one. 

    With tactics like this, Microsoft is showing they are not for users/gamers. They are for themselves. And when they think they see blood in the water, they don’t miss an opportunity to pounce. The only problem is that, historically, their feeding frenzy leads to them biting themselves and missing the target, leading to product snd service shutdowns and losses due to consumers not being as gullible as they think. 

    Looks like more of the same in store for the near future. 

    Too bad apple didn’t buy bungie and let Sony scoop them up. All bungie games are amazing and their IPs are successful for the long term. I can’t remember the last time I played an activision blizzard game. The stupid looking designs of Warcraft are annoying, call of duty feels like gaming with training wheels still on, and everything else is just old. Played Destiny 2 yesterday and looking forward to the expansion this month. 

    Activision is decent I guess. Blizzard was decent at one time. But bungie is Epic. Vision, talent, craftsmanship, and care. That’s why they’ll be successful moving into the future. Activision is a big bag of hurt right now. 

    As far as app stores, Apple has had it right since the beginning. No need to change what is fair, secure, works very well, snd is above board morally and legally. It’s not right for lawmakers to change the goalposts whenever a competitor (or partner/competitor) wants to push things. Just because an accusation is leveled doesn’t make it true. 
    Which Apple principle MS is copying with Xbox?  

    If you ask me, as a gamer, I think it will benefit gamers, considering the most important games will be available in PlayStation consoles.  Second, you'll be able to have those games in GamePass, which IMO, is very affordable considering the library of games it have.  And third, I prefer to have a company as Microsoft to make the acquisition instead of Google, FaceBook, Tencent and even Apple. MS has the experience, ecosystem and platform to expand the library of games they acquired.  

    Also have no issues with Sony acquiring Bungie, for similar reasons as the one I mentioned for MS.  
    edited February 10 muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 22 of 43
    I believe the solution to everyones problem is for Apple to allow side loading so long as the 3rd party app store is subscription based only.

    I will now explain some aspects of why the subscription model can sustain both an open and walled gardened approach to a software marketplace: 

    1. App developers would need to coalesce into a subscription program. Apple would offer their own or they could join or build another.

    2. App developers could build their subscription service companies that target industries. 

    3. Subscription services would build value brands to maintain quality, security, and compliance standards.

    4. Since the subscription model rewards developers only when their apps get used it spurs internal diversification and hyperactivity in the developer space creating more and more demand for skills, training, tools, pay structures, licensing deals, everything. 

    5. Customers get less trash apps, more relevant higher quality app. More updates, and freedom to choose other app stores while maintaining security.


    Evrybody wins. Apple maintain the iPhone’s walled garden security. Apple competes with other app stores using more innovative strategies. Customers can subscribe to industry focused app stores. Developers get higher rewards and must continue striving to do better. 


    Beatswilliamlondon
  • Reply 23 of 43
    BeatsBeats Posts: 3,073member
    So don’t sell at a loss, and produce enough of them? (Instead of artificial shortages that are obvious ploys to boost desirability.)

    The “robust and viable ecosystem for game developers" argument is such horseshit if you look at where indie developers are actually making money (or rather not making money…) Does anyone buy the idea that MS is soooooo into gaming that it loses billions of $$ on a passion project? (Or that that would be legal, given it’s duty to shareholders.) 

    I’d argue that MS and others like it intentionally create the economic circumstances that make working for AAA studios the only sad “viable” option for most developers. The only people that are benefiting here are investors.  
    If consoles weren't sold at a loss, they would cost 50% more and far fewer people would buy them. You folks don't understand: not very many people buy consoles. About 50 million XBox One consoles were sold over 7 years. That is probably about the number of Google Pixel phones that sold in that timeframe. And no, these shortages aren't artificial. First off, these shortages did not exist with the PS4, XBox One, PS3, XBox 360 etc. These shortages are due to TSMC being the only foundry capable of making an integrated SOC for these devices that don't overheat. This is the same TSMC that also can't fill all of Apple's orders, forcing Apple to prioritize iPhones over iPads, remember?
    AMD's Zen 4 chips were supposed to launch in November 2021. At this rate AMD will consider themselves lucky if they launch in October 2022, and they have even had to shift some orders to Samsung, just as Intel - who will use TSMC's fabs for some orders in 2023 - considered doing and Nvidia did last year for Ampere GPUs.

    The console business model is totally different from the mobile device one. Samsung alone sells more smartphones in 1 year than the entire console industry - Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft and the minor players - sells in an entire generation. Yes, the Nintendo Switch sells at a profit. But do you know why? The Nintendo Switch is actually the Nvidia Shield K1 Android tablet from 2015 running the Nintendo 3DS operating system (based on FreeBSD) along with some Android components and Nvidia software. The Nvidia Shield K1 tablet was $200 when it originally launched! 

    I can see you bashing Microsoft - decades of hate I guess - but you realize that by doing this you are also trashing Sony, whose console costs the same, whose shortages are even worse, and who has nothing to do with these app store battles with Epic Games and regulators. The PlayStation is their last big money hardware product left. The iPod and iPhone killed off the Walkman, boom boxes and the other consumer audio products that were massive for them in the 80s and 90s. Streaming - and streaming boxes - killed off their VHS, DVD and Blu-ray line. They so badly botched their attempts to make Android devices that they don't even bother to distribute more than a few units outside Japan (iPhone 70% market share) anymore. Their TV line is being battered by South Korean and Chinese competition. They are also only "one among many" when it comes to selling headphones (where they get crushed by AirPods) and speakers (getting devalued by smart products from Amazon, Sonos, Google and Apple). And they ditched their PC line ages ago because they could no longer compete with HP, Dell, Lenovo and Apple (Toshiba made the same decision). 

    If you have some business plan or strategy where Sony could make $200 per unit on the PS5 and still sell enough to make money selling $70 copies of the Spider-Man game go ahead and share it. My guess is that you don't, and you don't care what happens to Sony or the console market so long as Apple gets to keep doing whatever Apple wants. You are probably ROOTING for the console makers to fail so Apple could take their place. Just as pretty much everyone on this site was rooting for Nintento to fail 5 years ago so Apple could buy them and make Mario, Link, Pokemon etc. exclusives on Apple TV (so that people would actually start buying them), iPads and iPhones.


    You went so far off-topic I forgot what the article was about.

    You say we bash Microsoft but not Sony. Ummm… Maybe because it’s not Sony who’s bitc*ing about Apple making a profit? You even admitted why we aren’t bashing Sony:
    ” who has nothing to do with these app store battles with Epic Games ”
    Um, duh? Which is why we ARE NOT bashing Sony.

    Then you go on some strange rant that we should come up with a business plan for Sony to stay in business if PlayStation fails. I honestly don’t care if Sony goes down. They have been the Samsung of gaming and their time is long overdue. Nintendo held Sony’s back and kept them in business with all the IP theft they allowed them to get away with.

    ”you don’t care what happens to Sony”
    WHAT THE FU** DOES SONY HAVE TO DO WITH THE ARTICLE?!?!
    And no, I don’t care what happens to Sony. They can be gone tomorrow and life will be better.

    Then you passively mention Apple being too successful. Oh now we see where the real agenda is. No wonder you’re defending M$.

    Then you mention that the gaming industry is DIFFERENT. Ok, then why the fu** are Microsoft trying to regulate an industry they aren’t a part of?
    This is like allowing Apple to regulate the NFL because the iPhone business is “different”. So what?

    Then you mention AppleInsider readers rooting for Apple to buy Nintendo so people could buy Apple TVs.
    Um, no. People wanted Apple to acquire Nintendo for their IP and to help Apple get serious about gaming. It was about lack of gaming not “sales”. You also mention iPads and iPhones needing Nintendo’s help at the end there. No, Apple is doing good without Nintendo as they completely took the DS out of business.

    But of course you already knew iPads and iPhones were doing well and are too successful so they need your regulation:
     you don't care what happens to Sony or the console market so long as Apple gets to keep doing whatever Apple wants.”
    williamlondonviclauyyc
  • Reply 24 of 43
    saareksaarek Posts: 1,396member
    So don’t sell at a loss, and produce enough of them? (Instead of artificial shortages that are obvious ploys to boost desirability.)

    The “robust and viable ecosystem for game developers" argument is such horseshit if you look at where indie developers are actually making money (or rather not making money…) Does anyone buy the idea that MS is soooooo into gaming that it loses billions of $$ on a passion project? (Or that that would be legal, given it’s duty to shareholders.) 

    I’d argue that MS and others like it intentionally create the economic circumstances that make working for AAA studios the only sad “viable” option for most developers. The only people that are benefiting here are investors.  
    If consoles weren't sold at a loss, they would cost 50% more and far fewer people would buy them. You folks don't understand: not very many people buy consoles. About 50 million XBox One consoles were sold over 7 years. That is probably about the number of Google Pixel phones that sold in that timeframe. And no, these shortages aren't artificial. First off, these shortages did not exist with the PS4, XBox One, PS3, XBox 360 etc. These shortages are due to TSMC being the only foundry capable of making an integrated SOC for these devices that don't overheat. This is the same TSMC that also can't fill all of Apple's orders, forcing Apple to prioritize iPhones over iPads, remember?
    AMD's Zen 4 chips were supposed to launch in November 2021. At this rate AMD will consider themselves lucky if they launch in October 2022, and they have even had to shift some orders to Samsung, just as Intel - who will use TSMC's fabs for some orders in 2023 - considered doing and Nvidia did last year for Ampere GPUs.

    The console business model is totally different from the mobile device one. Samsung alone sells more smartphones in 1 year than the entire console industry - Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft and the minor players - sells in an entire generation. Yes, the Nintendo Switch sells at a profit. But do you know why? The Nintendo Switch is actually the Nvidia Shield K1 Android tablet from 2015 running the Nintendo 3DS operating system (based on FreeBSD) along with some Android components and Nvidia software. The Nvidia Shield K1 tablet was $200 when it originally launched! 

    I can see you bashing Microsoft - decades of hate I guess - but you realize that by doing this you are also trashing Sony, whose console costs the same, whose shortages are even worse, and who has nothing to do with these app store battles with Epic Games and regulators. The PlayStation is their last big money hardware product left. The iPod and iPhone killed off the Walkman, boom boxes and the other consumer audio products that were massive for them in the 80s and 90s. Streaming - and streaming boxes - killed off their VHS, DVD and Blu-ray line. They so badly botched their attempts to make Android devices that they don't even bother to distribute more than a few units outside Japan (iPhone 70% market share) anymore. Their TV line is being battered by South Korean and Chinese competition. They are also only "one among many" when it comes to selling headphones (where they get crushed by AirPods) and speakers (getting devalued by smart products from Amazon, Sonos, Google and Apple). And they ditched their PC line ages ago because they could no longer compete with HP, Dell, Lenovo and Apple (Toshiba made the same decision). 

    If you have some business plan or strategy where Sony could make $200 per unit on the PS5 and still sell enough to make money selling $70 copies of the Spider-Man game go ahead and share it. My guess is that you don't, and you don't care what happens to Sony or the console market so long as Apple gets to keep doing whatever Apple wants. You are probably ROOTING for the console makers to fail so Apple could take their place. Just as pretty much everyone on this site was rooting for Nintento to fail 5 years ago so Apple could buy them and make Mario, Link, Pokemon etc. exclusives on Apple TV (so that people would actually start buying them), iPads and iPhones.
    You say that the console business is different from the mobile business.

    So.. Why do we have to listen to Microsoft then??? Microsoft clearly tried to launch smartphones with their own Window OS, which failed. Their fault. Not Apple´s fault. 

    Microsoft is giving a lot of BS this time because Microsoft is jealous that AAPL and GOOGL are so successful with their smartphones and smoothly running OS, which Microsoft wished to have. 


    Not only did MS wait too long, missing the boat on mobile, they failed even with Apples example in front of them, just like with Zune. 

    And so they decided to BUY NOKIA. And they KILLED NOKIA. It basically died. So sad. 

    And that’s what they are doing now. They try, they struggle, so they buy. And we know what happens next. 

    Xbox is their saving Grace. But they pump a ton of money into Xbox. And the 70 BILLION acquisition is a very desperate move. There are a lot of nervous folks at Microsoft over that one. It HAS TO succeed. If not, there will be big trouble. 

    Microsoft still has no real mobile platform no matter how much they try. 

    And that’s why you hear the thick, bitter jealousy wafting out from Redmond now. 
    Nokia was already terminal when Microsoft bought them, their death was effectively inevitable at that point and yet Microsoft for some reason didn’t seem to notice or care.
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 25 of 43
    BeatsBeats Posts: 3,073member
    danvm said:
    So don’t sell at a loss, and produce enough of them? (Instead of artificial shortages that are obvious ploys to boost desirability.)

    The “robust and viable ecosystem for game developers" argument is such horseshit if you look at where indie developers are actually making money (or rather not making money…) Does anyone buy the idea that MS is soooooo into gaming that it loses billions of $$ on a passion project? (Or that that would be legal, given it’s duty to shareholders.) 

    I’d argue that MS and others like it intentionally create the economic circumstances that make working for AAA studios the only sad “viable” option for most developers. The only people that are benefiting here are investors.  
    If consoles weren't sold at a loss, they would cost 50% more and far fewer people would buy them. You folks don't understand: not very many people buy consoles. About 50 million XBox One consoles were sold over 7 years. That is probably about the number of Google Pixel phones that sold in that timeframe. And no, these shortages aren't artificial. First off, these shortages did not exist with the PS4, XBox One, PS3, XBox 360 etc. These shortages are due to TSMC being the only foundry capable of making an integrated SOC for these devices that don't overheat. This is the same TSMC that also can't fill all of Apple's orders, forcing Apple to prioritize iPhones over iPads, remember?
    AMD's Zen 4 chips were supposed to launch in November 2021. At this rate AMD will consider themselves lucky if they launch in October 2022, and they have even had to shift some orders to Samsung, just as Intel - who will use TSMC's fabs for some orders in 2023 - considered doing and Nvidia did last year for Ampere GPUs.

    The console business model is totally different from the mobile device one. Samsung alone sells more smartphones in 1 year than the entire console industry - Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft and the minor players - sells in an entire generation. Yes, the Nintendo Switch sells at a profit. But do you know why? The Nintendo Switch is actually the Nvidia Shield K1 Android tablet from 2015 running the Nintendo 3DS operating system (based on FreeBSD) along with some Android components and Nvidia software. The Nvidia Shield K1 tablet was $200 when it originally launched! 

    I can see you bashing Microsoft - decades of hate I guess - but you realize that by doing this you are also trashing Sony, whose console costs the same, whose shortages are even worse, and who has nothing to do with these app store battles with Epic Games and regulators. The PlayStation is their last big money hardware product left. The iPod and iPhone killed off the Walkman, boom boxes and the other consumer audio products that were massive for them in the 80s and 90s. Streaming - and streaming boxes - killed off their VHS, DVD and Blu-ray line. They so badly botched their attempts to make Android devices that they don't even bother to distribute more than a few units outside Japan (iPhone 70% market share) anymore. Their TV line is being battered by South Korean and Chinese competition. They are also only "one among many" when it comes to selling headphones (where they get crushed by AirPods) and speakers (getting devalued by smart products from Amazon, Sonos, Google and Apple). And they ditched their PC line ages ago because they could no longer compete with HP, Dell, Lenovo and Apple (Toshiba made the same decision). 

    If you have some business plan or strategy where Sony could make $200 per unit on the PS5 and still sell enough to make money selling $70 copies of the Spider-Man game go ahead and share it. My guess is that you don't, and you don't care what happens to Sony or the console market so long as Apple gets to keep doing whatever Apple wants. You are probably ROOTING for the console makers to fail so Apple could take their place. Just as pretty much everyone on this site was rooting for Nintento to fail 5 years ago so Apple could buy them and make Mario, Link, Pokemon etc. exclusives on Apple TV (so that people would actually start buying them), iPads and iPhones.
    You say that the console business is different from the mobile business.

    So.. Why do we have to listen to Microsoft then??? Microsoft clearly tried to launch smartphones with their own Window OS, which failed. Their fault. Not Apple´s fault. 

    Microsoft is giving a lot of BS this time because Microsoft is jealous that AAPL and GOOGL are so successful with their smartphones and smoothly running OS, which Microsoft wished to have. 


    If MS is jealous of Apple and Google smartphone business, then I suppose Apple and Google are jealous of MS successful cloud business and their enterprise / business ecosystem, right?

    NO.

    What a stupid, stupid assumption. The article isn’t about Apple complaining that Microsoft Word is too successful.
    williamlondon
  • Reply 26 of 43
    The hypocrisy is astounding.

    Also the lot of you don't get to define what a console is based on your personal preference for where the iPhone should lay. 
    It has always been a closed platform of approved apps only, just because you can perform duties which resemble that of a general purpose computer doesn't change that fact.
    Actually it’s an open platform. Developers can put their apps on the App Store. They just can’t be malware or other such trash. Vetting is a good thing. Doesn’t mean “closed.” Means “safe, secure, good.”

    an iPhone is far more specialized and personal than s console, which does most of what an iPhone does, only the iPhone is far more personal snd private, meaning it should have far greater safeguards. 

    You don’t get to define where the iPhone lies based on your preferences. The iPhone is a 3 tiered product as it has been since it’s inception: 1. A phone. 2. An internet communicator. 3. A multimedia entertainment device. 

    The Xbox is all of that - Skype etc. makes it a phone. Web browsing makes it an internet communicator. And the multimedia music snd video apps are everywhere. 

    The difference is that you keep all of your personal finance, contacts, etc. in your iPhone. 

    If Xbox deserves to have its App Store more refined, then the iPhone doubly so. 

    Apple has the Mac App Store but you can still download apps from anywhere. But the mobile ecosystem by nature requires greater safeguards. It is far more important here than on a PlayStation or Nintendo or Xbox. 

    In other words, Microsoft is copying Apple by leaving its Windows App Store like apples Mac App Store and more carefully guarding Xbox like Apple does iPhone. 

    Microsoft is the hypocrite here, doing the same thing, but pointing fingers at the one who showed them how. 

    Shameful. 

    Microsoft thinks that by joining a small but vocal chorus of nonsense, that they won’t come for them next. But they will. That’s the thing about wild pack animals. After ganging up on their prey, They turn and attack each other. They always do.
    Actually it's not, but thanks for the diatribe.
  • Reply 27 of 43

    If you have some business plan or strategy where Sony could make $200 per unit on the PS5 and still sell enough to make money selling $70 copies of the Spider-Man game go ahead and share it. My guess is that you don't, and you don't care what happens to Sony or the console market so long as Apple gets to keep doing whatever Apple wants. You are probably ROOTING for the console makers to fail so Apple could take their place. Just as pretty much everyone on this site was rooting for Nintento to fail 5 years ago so Apple could buy them and make Mario, Link, Pokemon etc. exclusives on Apple TV (so that people would actually start buying them), iPads and iPhones.
    Actually Sony has 4 major business that makes money now, PlayStation, Entertainment (Columbia, Sony Music, Manga), electronic and financial ( yes there is a Sony bank in Japan and they are doing very well. So don’t think Sony is just a one trick pony. Sony is doing much better than other major Japanese “electronic” companies, like Panasonic, Toshiba, Mitsubishi, etc 

    Sony can start to make money on console so fast is impressive. But it mainly due to they have the know how to slim down the electronic. Just like at the size of first gen PS3 and the last one. Also, this time Sony mainly used off the shelf technology in PS5, no custom made CPU and GPU, no new format disk drive, so it save a lot time to get the hardware ready.

    and no, there was a major shortage of PS3 in the beginning, because Sony use Blu-ray disks as storage media. It was state of art at the time. And Sony want to win the format war against HD-DVD. So they need to Blu-ray in PS3, not to mention the storage size is much bigger than dvd. They just make enough of it.
    Beats
  • Reply 28 of 43
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,251member
    Beats said:
    danvm said:
    So don’t sell at a loss, and produce enough of them? (Instead of artificial shortages that are obvious ploys to boost desirability.)

    The “robust and viable ecosystem for game developers" argument is such horseshit if you look at where indie developers are actually making money (or rather not making money…) Does anyone buy the idea that MS is soooooo into gaming that it loses billions of $$ on a passion project? (Or that that would be legal, given it’s duty to shareholders.) 

    I’d argue that MS and others like it intentionally create the economic circumstances that make working for AAA studios the only sad “viable” option for most developers. The only people that are benefiting here are investors.  
    If consoles weren't sold at a loss, they would cost 50% more and far fewer people would buy them. You folks don't understand: not very many people buy consoles. About 50 million XBox One consoles were sold over 7 years. That is probably about the number of Google Pixel phones that sold in that timeframe. And no, these shortages aren't artificial. First off, these shortages did not exist with the PS4, XBox One, PS3, XBox 360 etc. These shortages are due to TSMC being the only foundry capable of making an integrated SOC for these devices that don't overheat. This is the same TSMC that also can't fill all of Apple's orders, forcing Apple to prioritize iPhones over iPads, remember?
    AMD's Zen 4 chips were supposed to launch in November 2021. At this rate AMD will consider themselves lucky if they launch in October 2022, and they have even had to shift some orders to Samsung, just as Intel - who will use TSMC's fabs for some orders in 2023 - considered doing and Nvidia did last year for Ampere GPUs.

    The console business model is totally different from the mobile device one. Samsung alone sells more smartphones in 1 year than the entire console industry - Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft and the minor players - sells in an entire generation. Yes, the Nintendo Switch sells at a profit. But do you know why? The Nintendo Switch is actually the Nvidia Shield K1 Android tablet from 2015 running the Nintendo 3DS operating system (based on FreeBSD) along with some Android components and Nvidia software. The Nvidia Shield K1 tablet was $200 when it originally launched! 

    I can see you bashing Microsoft - decades of hate I guess - but you realize that by doing this you are also trashing Sony, whose console costs the same, whose shortages are even worse, and who has nothing to do with these app store battles with Epic Games and regulators. The PlayStation is their last big money hardware product left. The iPod and iPhone killed off the Walkman, boom boxes and the other consumer audio products that were massive for them in the 80s and 90s. Streaming - and streaming boxes - killed off their VHS, DVD and Blu-ray line. They so badly botched their attempts to make Android devices that they don't even bother to distribute more than a few units outside Japan (iPhone 70% market share) anymore. Their TV line is being battered by South Korean and Chinese competition. They are also only "one among many" when it comes to selling headphones (where they get crushed by AirPods) and speakers (getting devalued by smart products from Amazon, Sonos, Google and Apple). And they ditched their PC line ages ago because they could no longer compete with HP, Dell, Lenovo and Apple (Toshiba made the same decision). 

    If you have some business plan or strategy where Sony could make $200 per unit on the PS5 and still sell enough to make money selling $70 copies of the Spider-Man game go ahead and share it. My guess is that you don't, and you don't care what happens to Sony or the console market so long as Apple gets to keep doing whatever Apple wants. You are probably ROOTING for the console makers to fail so Apple could take their place. Just as pretty much everyone on this site was rooting for Nintento to fail 5 years ago so Apple could buy them and make Mario, Link, Pokemon etc. exclusives on Apple TV (so that people would actually start buying them), iPads and iPhones.
    You say that the console business is different from the mobile business.

    So.. Why do we have to listen to Microsoft then??? Microsoft clearly tried to launch smartphones with their own Window OS, which failed. Their fault. Not Apple´s fault. 

    Microsoft is giving a lot of BS this time because Microsoft is jealous that AAPL and GOOGL are so successful with their smartphones and smoothly running OS, which Microsoft wished to have. 


    If MS is jealous of Apple and Google smartphone business, then I suppose Apple and Google are jealous of MS successful cloud business and their enterprise / business ecosystem, right?

    NO.

    What a stupid, stupid assumption. The article isn’t about Apple complaining that Microsoft Word is too successful.
    My response was to a comment that said that MS is jealous of Apple and Google because their success, something I don't think it's true, neither I think that Apple or Google are jealous of MS.  They are business that have their strong business in some business areas, while in other they are not that good. 

    I try to respect other people comments, so won't said it's stupid.  But definitely I don't agree with it.  
    edited February 10 muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 29 of 43
    BeatsBeats Posts: 3,073member
    saarek said:
    So don’t sell at a loss, and produce enough of them? (Instead of artificial shortages that are obvious ploys to boost desirability.)

    The “robust and viable ecosystem for game developers" argument is such horseshit if you look at where indie developers are actually making money (or rather not making money…) Does anyone buy the idea that MS is soooooo into gaming that it loses billions of $$ on a passion project? (Or that that would be legal, given it’s duty to shareholders.) 

    I’d argue that MS and others like it intentionally create the economic circumstances that make working for AAA studios the only sad “viable” option for most developers. The only people that are benefiting here are investors.  
    If consoles weren't sold at a loss, they would cost 50% more and far fewer people would buy them. You folks don't understand: not very many people buy consoles. About 50 million XBox One consoles were sold over 7 years. That is probably about the number of Google Pixel phones that sold in that timeframe. And no, these shortages aren't artificial. First off, these shortages did not exist with the PS4, XBox One, PS3, XBox 360 etc. These shortages are due to TSMC being the only foundry capable of making an integrated SOC for these devices that don't overheat. This is the same TSMC that also can't fill all of Apple's orders, forcing Apple to prioritize iPhones over iPads, remember?
    AMD's Zen 4 chips were supposed to launch in November 2021. At this rate AMD will consider themselves lucky if they launch in October 2022, and they have even had to shift some orders to Samsung, just as Intel - who will use TSMC's fabs for some orders in 2023 - considered doing and Nvidia did last year for Ampere GPUs.

    The console business model is totally different from the mobile device one. Samsung alone sells more smartphones in 1 year than the entire console industry - Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft and the minor players - sells in an entire generation. Yes, the Nintendo Switch sells at a profit. But do you know why? The Nintendo Switch is actually the Nvidia Shield K1 Android tablet from 2015 running the Nintendo 3DS operating system (based on FreeBSD) along with some Android components and Nvidia software. The Nvidia Shield K1 tablet was $200 when it originally launched! 

    I can see you bashing Microsoft - decades of hate I guess - but you realize that by doing this you are also trashing Sony, whose console costs the same, whose shortages are even worse, and who has nothing to do with these app store battles with Epic Games and regulators. The PlayStation is their last big money hardware product left. The iPod and iPhone killed off the Walkman, boom boxes and the other consumer audio products that were massive for them in the 80s and 90s. Streaming - and streaming boxes - killed off their VHS, DVD and Blu-ray line. They so badly botched their attempts to make Android devices that they don't even bother to distribute more than a few units outside Japan (iPhone 70% market share) anymore. Their TV line is being battered by South Korean and Chinese competition. They are also only "one among many" when it comes to selling headphones (where they get crushed by AirPods) and speakers (getting devalued by smart products from Amazon, Sonos, Google and Apple). And they ditched their PC line ages ago because they could no longer compete with HP, Dell, Lenovo and Apple (Toshiba made the same decision). 

    If you have some business plan or strategy where Sony could make $200 per unit on the PS5 and still sell enough to make money selling $70 copies of the Spider-Man game go ahead and share it. My guess is that you don't, and you don't care what happens to Sony or the console market so long as Apple gets to keep doing whatever Apple wants. You are probably ROOTING for the console makers to fail so Apple could take their place. Just as pretty much everyone on this site was rooting for Nintento to fail 5 years ago so Apple could buy them and make Mario, Link, Pokemon etc. exclusives on Apple TV (so that people would actually start buying them), iPads and iPhones.
    You say that the console business is different from the mobile business.

    So.. Why do we have to listen to Microsoft then??? Microsoft clearly tried to launch smartphones with their own Window OS, which failed. Their fault. Not Apple´s fault. 

    Microsoft is giving a lot of BS this time because Microsoft is jealous that AAPL and GOOGL are so successful with their smartphones and smoothly running OS, which Microsoft wished to have. 


    Not only did MS wait too long, missing the boat on mobile, they failed even with Apples example in front of them, just like with Zune. 

    And so they decided to BUY NOKIA. And they KILLED NOKIA. It basically died. So sad. 

    And that’s what they are doing now. They try, they struggle, so they buy. And we know what happens next. 

    Xbox is their saving Grace. But they pump a ton of money into Xbox. And the 70 BILLION acquisition is a very desperate move. There are a lot of nervous folks at Microsoft over that one. It HAS TO succeed. If not, there will be big trouble. 

    Microsoft still has no real mobile platform no matter how much they try. 

    And that’s why you hear the thick, bitter jealousy wafting out from Redmond now. 
    Nokia was already terminal when Microsoft bought them, their death was effectively inevitable at that point and yet Microsoft for some reason didn’t seem to notice or care.

    I remember Microsoft pumping billions into Nokia and they were a thing again. Microsoft killed them.
    williamlondon
  • Reply 30 of 43
    davidwdavidw Posts: 1,643member
    viclauyyc said:

    If you have some business plan or strategy where Sony could make $200 per unit on the PS5 and still sell enough to make money selling $70 copies of the Spider-Man game go ahead and share it. My guess is that you don't, and you don't care what happens to Sony or the console market so long as Apple gets to keep doing whatever Apple wants. You are probably ROOTING for the console makers to fail so Apple could take their place. Just as pretty much everyone on this site was rooting for Nintento to fail 5 years ago so Apple could buy them and make Mario, Link, Pokemon etc. exclusives on Apple TV (so that people would actually start buying them), iPads and iPhones.
    Actually Sony has 4 major business that makes money now, PlayStation, Entertainment (Columbia, Sony Music, Manga), electronic and financial ( yes there is a Sony bank in Japan and they are doing very well. So don’t think Sony is just a one trick pony. Sony is doing much better than other major Japanese “electronic” companies, like Panasonic, Toshiba, Mitsubishi, etc 

    Sony can start to make money on console so fast is impressive. But it mainly due to they have the know how to slim down the electronic. Just like at the size of first gen PS3 and the last one. Also, this time Sony mainly used off the shelf technology in PS5, no custom made CPU and GPU, no new format disk drive, so it save a lot time to get the hardware ready.

    and no, there was a major shortage of PS3 in the beginning, because Sony use Blu-ray disks as storage media. It was state of art at the time. And Sony want to win the format war against HD-DVD. So they need to Blu-ray in PS3, not to mention the storage size is much bigger than dvd. They just make enough of it.
    No. The PS3 shortage was because Sony included a Blu-Ray disc player with the PS3. At the time, there were no games on a Blu-Ray disc. There are only a few now, but that's mainly because games are downloaded now. Putting games on a Blu-Ray disc had the disadvantage that most computers did not come with a Blu-Ray player. Plus games are played off the HD (once loaded ) not off the disc, so there was no real disadvantage to have games on multiple DVD disc.  

    For developers, putting a game on a blu-Ray disc would have been expensive as Bu-Ray burners and blank disc were expensive. Plus the game would not be backward compatible to a PS2. 

    Back when the PS3 came out ($499 to $599), stand alone Blu-Ray disc players cost over $500. The first commercial Blu-ray player was by Samsung, that cost $1000 and it came out earlier that year (2006). The PS3 sold out early and stayed that way for quiet awhile because at the time, buying a PS3 was like paying for a Blu-Ray player (abet one that didn't have all the features) and getting a game console for free. And yes, Sony did this to get an advantage in the Blu-Ray/HD-DVD format war.   
    williamlondon
  • Reply 31 of 43
    Wow, looks like Microsoft astroturfing is a thing again (highframerate), as are Microsoft’s duplicitous business practices and hypocritical legal arguments. Everything old is new again.
    williamlondon
  • Reply 32 of 43
    Perhaps Apple should sell its iOS products at a loss so it can claim they are specialty computer items? This is what it will come down to in the legislation. Why can the game stores on the Xbox, Playstation and Switch consoles be limited to the company that makes them? Because they are sold at a loss. Why must the iPhone, iPad, Apple Watch and Mac app stores be open? Because Apple sells them at a massive profit. You the customer own them and you the customer have the right to do whatever you want to with them.
    Of course iPhone customer can hack their iPhone and do whatever they want with it. But their ability to do it very. They can burn it if they want to. Apple will not care.

    Apple also happened to own the App Store, so they can do whatever they want with it. They welcome anyone to join and sell in the App Store, as long as they follow App Store’s rules. This is no difference with any retailer or company.

    will you want any company that want to do business with you but they don’t want to follow your rules?
    Beats
  • Reply 33 of 43
    I’m starting to wonder if all this is because Microsoft is worried about Apple’s VR head set. They know Apple makes a phone everyone loves, they can’t compete with, headphones, they can’t compete with, since Apple Silicon apple makes computers they can’t compete with. That just leaves Microsoft with gaming. Apple Silicon GPUs are almost as good as gaming PCs and they consume about half the power. Microsoft said they would keep activision blizzard games on PlayStation but will they offer them too new comers. I think Microsoft is nervous. 
    Beats
  • Reply 34 of 43
    BeatsBeats Posts: 3,073member
    I’m starting to wonder if all this is because Microsoft is worried about Apple’s VR head set. They know Apple makes a phone everyone loves, they can’t compete with, headphones, they can’t compete with, since Apple Silicon apple makes computers they can’t compete with. That just leaves Microsoft with gaming. Apple Silicon GPUs are almost as good as gaming PCs and they consume about half the power. Microsoft said they would keep activision blizzard games on PlayStation but will they offer them too new comers. I think Microsoft is nervous. 

    Apple doesn’t take gaming seriously, otherwise they would have destroyed the Xbox too.
  • Reply 35 of 43
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,353member
    Beats said:
    I’m starting to wonder if all this is because Microsoft is worried about Apple’s VR head set. They know Apple makes a phone everyone loves, they can’t compete with, headphones, they can’t compete with, since Apple Silicon apple makes computers they can’t compete with. That just leaves Microsoft with gaming. Apple Silicon GPUs are almost as good as gaming PCs and they consume about half the power. Microsoft said they would keep activision blizzard games on PlayStation but will they offer them too new comers. I think Microsoft is nervous. 

    Apple doesn’t take gaming seriously, otherwise they would have destroyed the Xbox too.
    Apple make more money from gaming that Microsoft do. They take it plenty seriously, which means not getting distracted by adventures in living room console hardware.
  • Reply 36 of 43
    genovellegenovelle Posts: 1,391member
    The hypocrisy is astounding.

    Also the lot of you don't get to define what a console is based on your personal preference for where the iPhone should lay. 
    It has always been a closed platform of approved apps only, just because you can perform duties which resemble that of a general purpose computer doesn't change that fact.
    Actually it’s an open platform. Developers can put their apps on the App Store. They just can’t be malware or other such trash. Vetting is a good thing. Doesn’t mean “closed.” Means “safe, secure, good.”

    an iPhone is far more specialized and personal than s console, which does most of what an iPhone does, only the iPhone is far more personal snd private, meaning it should have far greater safeguards. 

    You don’t get to define where the iPhone lies based on your preferences. The iPhone is a 3 tiered product as it has been since it’s inception: 1. A phone. 2. An internet communicator. 3. A multimedia entertainment device. 

    The Xbox is all of that - Skype etc. makes it a phone. Web browsing makes it an internet communicator. And the multimedia music snd video apps are everywhere. 

    The difference is that you keep all of your personal finance, contacts, etc. in your iPhone. 

    If Xbox deserves to have its App Store more refined, then the iPhone doubly so. 

    Apple has the Mac App Store but you can still download apps from anywhere. But the mobile ecosystem by nature requires greater safeguards. It is far more important here than on a PlayStation or Nintendo or Xbox. 

    In other words, Microsoft is copying Apple by leaving its Windows App Store like apples Mac App Store and more carefully guarding Xbox like Apple does iPhone. 

    Microsoft is the hypocrite here, doing the same thing, but pointing fingers at the one who showed them how. 

    Shameful. 

    Microsoft thinks that by joining a small but vocal chorus of nonsense, that they won’t come for them next. But they will. That’s the thing about wild pack animals. After ganging up on their prey, They turn and attack each other. They always do.
    They are attempting to play a card from the 90s and manipulate the government to help them undermine Apple. They succeeded in “stopping Apple from keeping their Mac OS features for the Mac with the help of the court system and a poorly written license to access tech to make improvements to the word and excel software they originally developed for the Mac.  
  • Reply 37 of 43
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,251member
    Beats said:
    I’m starting to wonder if all this is because Microsoft is worried about Apple’s VR head set. They know Apple makes a phone everyone loves, they can’t compete with, headphones, they can’t compete with, since Apple Silicon apple makes computers they can’t compete with. That just leaves Microsoft with gaming. Apple Silicon GPUs are almost as good as gaming PCs and they consume about half the power. Microsoft said they would keep activision blizzard games on PlayStation but will they offer them too new comers. I think Microsoft is nervous. 

    Apple doesn’t take gaming seriously, otherwise they would have destroyed the Xbox too.
    Apple takes gaming seriously.  Is just that their bad with gaming in desktop and the living room. MS is far ahead of them in these markets.  And now that gaming subscription services are growing, looks like MS is ahead of them too.  Maybe that's the reason Apple is creating rules to reject services as GamesPass. 

    And I don't think Apple would have beat MS, Sony or Nintendo in the gaming console market.  The closest thing Apple have to a console is the Apple TV, and is behind the competition.  Why do you think they would destroyed Xbox?
  • Reply 38 of 43
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,251member
    crowley said:
    Beats said:
    I’m starting to wonder if all this is because Microsoft is worried about Apple’s VR head set. They know Apple makes a phone everyone loves, they can’t compete with, headphones, they can’t compete with, since Apple Silicon apple makes computers they can’t compete with. That just leaves Microsoft with gaming. Apple Silicon GPUs are almost as good as gaming PCs and they consume about half the power. Microsoft said they would keep activision blizzard games on PlayStation but will they offer them too new comers. I think Microsoft is nervous. 

    Apple doesn’t take gaming seriously, otherwise they would have destroyed the Xbox too.
    Apple make more money from gaming that Microsoft do. They take it plenty seriously, which means not getting distracted by adventures in living room console hardware.
    You have to consider that console gaming is evolving into subscription services. And it looks like MS jumped ahead of the competition.  In addition you have Sony entering soon, in addition to other companies like EA and Ubisoft.  All of these companies have a strong library of games with a long list of studios.  Compare that to Apple, that only have Apple arcade, and have no games or studios.  I think Apple need to change soon if they want to be part of this market.  
  • Reply 39 of 43
    danvm said: Apple takes gaming seriously.  Is just that their bad with gaming in desktop and the living room. MS is far ahead of them in these markets.  And now that gaming subscription services are growing, looks like MS is ahead of them too.  Maybe that's the reason Apple is creating rules to reject services as GamesPass. 
    Apple's current approach is to leverage the popularity of mobile gaming onto their own non-mobile hardware, i.e., Mac and ATV. One of the major strategies of Apple Arcade was to make all the games available across all of their various hardware. Considering that mobile gaming now generates more revenue than PC/console gaming combined, that's certainly a legitimate strategy.

    GamePass couldn't be in the App Store because MS didn't want to go through the time/expense of porting PC/console game titles to iOS. In order to get approval in the App Store, the apps need to be iOS native. Considering how quickly MS had GamePass ready to work through internet browsers on iOS, it's unlikely that they ever seriously considered going through the App Store beyond wanting Apple to make an exception for them versus all the other iOS developers that DID take the time/expense to port PC/console games to iOS (like Feral Interactive as one example).
    tht
  • Reply 40 of 43
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,251member
    danvm said: Apple takes gaming seriously.  Is just that their bad with gaming in desktop and the living room. MS is far ahead of them in these markets.  And now that gaming subscription services are growing, looks like MS is ahead of them too.  Maybe that's the reason Apple is creating rules to reject services as GamesPass. 
    Apple's current approach is to leverage the popularity of mobile gaming onto their own non-mobile hardware, i.e., Mac and ATV. One of the major strategies of Apple Arcade was to make all the games available across all of their various hardware. Considering that mobile gaming now generates more revenue than PC/console gaming combined, that's certainly a legitimate strategy.
    As today, I don't see how that's strategy is working, considering low numbers of gamers playing in Mac's and ATV.  I don't think most mobile gamers  / Apple Arcade customers are looking forward to play those games in a Mac or ATV.  
    GamePass couldn't be in the App Store because MS didn't want to go through the time/expense of porting PC/console game titles to iOS. In order to get approval in the App Store, the apps need to be iOS native. Considering how quickly MS had GamePass ready to work through internet browsers on iOS, it's unlikely that they ever seriously considered going through the App Store beyond wanting Apple to make an exception for them versus all the other iOS developers that DID take the time/expense to port PC/console games to iOS (like Feral Interactive as one example).
    GamePass (same as PlayStation Now, Nvidia GeForce Now and Stadia) are not in the App Store because Apple rules.  They had the chance to make rules to allow those services, but they didn't.  Remember, their store, their rules.  Apple is the one to blame here.
    edited February 11
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