'Apple Car' team dissolved & 2025 launch may be in doubt says Ming-Chi Kuo

Posted:
in General Discussion edited March 2022
Analyst Ming-Chi Kuo reports that the project team behind pre-production of the Apple Car has been dissolved, and without rapid reworking, the car will not make its expected 2025 launch.




Despite recent reports that Apple was likely to announce a partnership to mass produce an "Apple Car" in 2025, Ming-Chi Kuo says the date is in question. According to the analyst, there is currently no project team in place at Apple.

The Apple Car project team has been dissolved for some time. The reorganization within the next three to six months is necessary to achieve the goal of mass production by 2025.

-- (Ming-Chi Kuo) (@mingchikuo)


Kuo offers no further details, so it's not known how long the team has been disbanded, nor at what stage they were. However, in December 2021, it was reported that three "Apple Car" engineers had left for other companies.

Also in September 2021, Apple Watch executive Kevin Lynch was said to have been reassigned to manage the "Apple Car" team. In 2020, it was reported that Apple's AI and Siri head, John Giannandrea, was overseeing development.

It's conceivable that Apple's design work and plans could even have been completed. If that was the case, however, at least some members of a team would be expected to stay through the manufacturing process.

The team behind what's reportedly known internally as "Project Titan," have reportedly been disbanded and/or reorganized before. In 2016, Apple placed a hiring freeze on the team following unspecified executives being unhappy with progress.

Read on AppleInsider
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 53
    Considering how often I've read this team gets dissolved, I'm not sure the Apple Car will ever be a thing.
    dk49JWSCflyingdpdoozydozenwatto_cobrabyronlbeowulfschmidt
  • Reply 2 of 53
    BeatsBeats Posts: 3,073member
    I hope it gets released. The industry needs another push towards electric. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 3 of 53
    tjwolftjwolf Posts: 424member
    Considering how often I've read this team gets dissolved, I'm not sure the Apple Car will ever be a thing.
    It's not even clear it ever was a thing!  That's the nice thing about rumors - you start one and then simply start another one saying the parties to the first rumor changed their plans.  Voila, you've gotten clicks/revenue on both.

    Apple definitely wants to be in its customers' cars.  But I always thought their ambitions lay solely in CarPlay with a future version of CarPlay reaching further into the car - e.g. providing self-driving capabilities, etc.  Building your own cars is not only highly capital intensive, it's also not all that lucrative - at least not compared to the 30+% margins Apple gets from its iDevices and 70+% on its services.  Were any of the rumors that Apple was approaching car manufacturers to build a car from them ever substantiated?  I mean, I have no doubt Apple did talk to various manufacturers about such a partnership, but that could have just been to inform themselves what the margins, in fact, would be.

    There is supposedly a "Project Titan" at Apple that relates to the car.  But that could simply be a software team working on self-driving features of a future CarPlay, no?
    magman1979mark fearinghcrefugeegregoriusmflyingdpjroylkruppStrangeDaysdesignrcommand_f
  • Reply 4 of 53
    tjwolf said:
    Considering how often I've read this team gets dissolved, I'm not sure the Apple Car will ever be a thing.
    It's not even clear it ever was a thing!  That's the nice thing about rumors - you start one and then simply start another one saying the parties to the first rumor changed their plans.  Voila, you've gotten clicks/revenue on both.

    Apple definitely wants to be in its customers' cars.  But I always thought their ambitions lay solely in CarPlay with a future version of CarPlay reaching further into the car - e.g. providing self-driving capabilities, etc.  Building your own cars is not only highly capital intensive, it's also not all that lucrative - at least not compared to the 30+% margins Apple gets from its iDevices and 70+% on its services.  Were any of the rumors that Apple was approaching car manufacturers to build a car from them ever substantiated?  I mean, I have no doubt Apple did talk to various manufacturers about such a partnership, but that could have just been to inform themselves what the margins, in fact, would be.

    There is supposedly a "Project Titan" at Apple that relates to the car.  But that could simply be a software team working on self-driving features of a future CarPlay, no?
    YUP. All rumors. No idea if the company was looking into it as a manufacturer or just looking into the tech behind it all to have a seat at the table. All rumors. Nothing ever said by the company. The project could be entirely software based. And it really is a totally different biz. My feeling always was, if they were going to get into it it would be through a service. In large cities you could join for X-dollars a month, perhaps in three tiers and have access to self driving cars of different sizes/scales. That’s the only way this makes sense. They do not want to start selling cars directly to consumers.
    StrangeDayswatto_cobra
  • Reply 5 of 53
    DAalsethDAalseth Posts: 2,783member
    I have doubted, and still am skeptical that Apple will release a car. Components for cars, yes. Systems to work in cars, almost certainly. But they can make a lot of money with a lot less hassle, producing things to go in other people’s cars. You’d still need to do everything they have been doing, road testing and such, to develop products for other companies vehicles. 
    edited March 2022 flyingdpdesignrcommand_fsconosciutowatto_cobrabyronl
  • Reply 6 of 53
    The last thing the world needs are more cars, Apple or otherwise.
  • Reply 7 of 53
    dk49dk49 Posts: 267member
    Year 2032: Apple Car team dissolved after facing manufacturing challenges.

    Year 2042: Apple rumoured to start working on car again with 2046 launch date.

    Year 2052: Apple Car team dissolved after facing manufacturing challenges.

    ...
    JWSCdoozydozenStrangeDaysbestkeptsecretwatto_cobrabyronl
  • Reply 8 of 53
    JWSCJWSC Posts: 1,203member

    I’ve been skeptical all along that Apple could pull this off.  News of Apple having talks with existing auto manufacturers got my hopes up slightly.  But it bears asking repeatedly, what can Apple offer that no one else can?   Are they working on some mind blowing new technology integration solution that takes human factors and UI to a new level?

    Tesla’s AI is monstrously superior to anything else out there and they’ve got hundreds of millions of miles of road data to input into that AI.  You can’t do it all with modeling and simulation.  Tesla along with Panasonic have done their homework on battery technology.  Tesla has refined the electric motor to new levels of performance.  Tesla autos are among the safest in the industry.

    It would have been really cool to see the industrial design of an Apple car.  I have no doubt that Apple could’ve done a better job than anyone else in design, ergonomics, and UI.  But cool design is not enough.  I’m glad Apple spent the time investigating the possibility of an Apple car. They probably learned a lot while doing it.  But it may be time to sunset this project.  Just get me my Mac Studio.  We’ll still love you Apple.

    edited March 2022 mobirddesignrwatto_cobrabyronl
  • Reply 9 of 53
    tjwolf said:
    Considering how often I've read this team gets dissolved, I'm not sure the Apple Car will ever be a thing.
    It's not even clear it ever was a thing!  That's the nice thing about rumors - you start one and then simply start another one saying the parties to the first rumor changed their plans.  Voila, you've gotten clicks/revenue on both.

    Apple definitely wants to be in its customers' cars.  But I always thought their ambitions lay solely in CarPlay with a future version of CarPlay reaching further into the car - e.g. providing self-driving capabilities, etc.  Building your own cars is not only highly capital intensive, it's also not all that lucrative - at least not compared to the 30+% margins Apple gets from its iDevices and 70+% on its services.  Were any of the rumors that Apple was approaching car manufacturers to build a car from them ever substantiated?  I mean, I have no doubt Apple did talk to various manufacturers about such a partnership, but that could have just been to inform themselves what the margins, in fact, would be.

    There is supposedly a "Project Titan" at Apple that relates to the car.  But that could simply be a software team working on self-driving features of a future CarPlay, no?
    YUP. All rumors. No idea if the company was looking into it as a manufacturer or just looking into the tech behind it all to have a seat at the table. All rumors. Nothing ever said by the company. The project could be entirely software based. And it really is a totally different biz. My feeling always was, if they were going to get into it it would be through a service. In large cities you could join for X-dollars a month, perhaps in three tiers and have access to self driving cars of different sizes/scales. That’s the only way this makes sense. They do not want to start selling cars directly to consumers.
    I think Apple is smart enough and has enough money to look into ALL of those things, has done so, and continues to do so. 
    edited March 2022 watto_cobrabyronl
  • Reply 10 of 53
    wood1208wood1208 Posts: 2,913member
    Elon Musk said, Car making business is hard. It requires lot to get off the ground and continue going. But, besides all these rumors, jibber-jabber talk, I have a hope that Apple will figure out to make it happen.


    edited March 2022 Beatswatto_cobrabyronl
  • Reply 11 of 53
    lkrupplkrupp Posts: 10,557member
    It’s perfectly clear now that the Car doesn’t exist and never did. This was all dreamed up by pundits like Kuo and others who are now in CYA mode trying to save face.

    Okay, that’s my current conspiracy theory on this subject. /s
    designrwatto_cobra
  • Reply 12 of 53
    Prior to September 2006, it was always a "rumor" that Apple was developing their own physical TV. When they announced it that September as "iTV", it wasn't an actual TV with a tuner but a box for streaming movies and tv shows. It was a great new way to watch movies/shows. The only thing was you had to download anything you wanted to watch, which took FOREVER!

    IMO, I feel the "Apple Car" might be developed the same way. Do I hope Apple would develop a physical car? Sure thing. But would I be happy with them developing the tech for existing and future cars? most definitely.
    command_fwatto_cobrabyronl
  • Reply 13 of 53
    bloggerblogbloggerblog Posts: 2,464member
    Wait a minute, am I reading this right?
    The Apple Car project team has been dissolved for some time. The reorganization within the next three to six months is necessary to achieve the goal of mass production by 2025. - Ming Chi

    I am reading it to mean the team was dissolved and Apple moved to reorganize within the next months so that they can achieve production by 2025.

    watto_cobra
  • Reply 14 of 53
    I think it would be great for Apple to partner with one or more existing car companies to design the driver-facing software interfaces and possibly even their dashboard's physical controls. But if Apple ever actually builds and markets an entire car (or line of cars), they need to give their car business its own name. I don't want to see the Apple logo on the front & back of cars. When those cars crash, or are used in bank robberies or televised high-speed pursuits, or eventually turn into 20-year-old rust-bucket pizza delivery vehicles, their appearance would tarnish Apple's image.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 15 of 53
    BeatsBeats Posts: 3,073member
    DAalseth said:
    I have doubted, and still am skeptical that Apple will release a car. Components for cars, yes. Systems to work in cars, almost certainly. But they can make a lot of money with a lot less hassle, producing things to go in other people’s cars. You’d still need to do everything they have been doing, road testing and such, to develop products for other companies vehicles. 

    This doesn’t work in practice as easily as everyone assumes. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 16 of 53
    BeatsBeats Posts: 3,073member
    JWSC said:

    I’ve been skeptical all along that Apple could pull this off.  News of Apple having talks with existing auto manufacturers got my hopes up slightly.  But it bears asking repeatedly, what can Apple offer that no one else can?   Are they working on some mind blowing new technology integration solution that takes human factors and UI to a new level?

    Tesla’s AI is monstrously superior to anything else out there and they’ve got hundreds of millions of miles of road data to input into that AI.  You can’t do it all with modeling and simulation.  Tesla along with Panasonic have done their homework on battery technology.  Tesla has refined the electric motor to new levels of performance.  Tesla autos are among the safest in the industry.

    It would have been really cool to see the industrial design of an Apple car.  I have no doubt that Apple could’ve done a better job than anyone else in design, ergonomics, and UI.  But cool design is not enough.  I’m glad Apple spent the time investigating the possibility of an Apple car. They probably learned a lot while doing it.  But it may be time to sunset this project.  Just get me my Mac Studio.  We’ll still love you Apple.


    So Apple should end their legacy at Mac Studio and shut down tomorrow?

    please, Apple needs to keep pushing technology forward and they can do a lot with the Car. Your reply reminds me of the articles praising blackberry before the iPhone. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 17 of 53
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,667member
    Beats said:
    JWSC said:

    I’ve been skeptical all along that Apple could pull this off.  News of Apple having talks with existing auto manufacturers got my hopes up slightly.  But it bears asking repeatedly, what can Apple offer that no one else can?   Are they working on some mind blowing new technology integration solution that takes human factors and UI to a new level?

    Tesla’s AI is monstrously superior to anything else out there and they’ve got hundreds of millions of miles of road data to input into that AI.  You can’t do it all with modeling and simulation.  Tesla along with Panasonic have done their homework on battery technology.  Tesla has refined the electric motor to new levels of performance.  Tesla autos are among the safest in the industry.

    It would have been really cool to see the industrial design of an Apple car.  I have no doubt that Apple could’ve done a better job than anyone else in design, ergonomics, and UI.  But cool design is not enough.  I’m glad Apple spent the time investigating the possibility of an Apple car. They probably learned a lot while doing it.  But it may be time to sunset this project.  Just get me my Mac Studio.  We’ll still love you Apple.


    So Apple should end their legacy at Mac Studio and shut down tomorrow?

    please, Apple needs to keep pushing technology forward and they can do a lot with the Car. Your reply reminds me of the articles praising blackberry before the iPhone. 
    An iPhone wasn't actually all that different from a Blackberry at launch. At least in functional hardware terms. 

    They both had screens, keyboards, batteries, antenna etc. Everything necessary to get the work of a phone (and more) done.

    The secret was in software and apps that added new functionality which actually turned it into less of a phone and more of a CE computer.

    How can that transfer to a autonomous car setting where most of the computing work is not really going to be client facing? It's going to be mainly back end stuff (mobile data centre, 'sensing' capabilities, AI, communicating with road infrastructure etc) and where there will be a host of competitors moving fast and already deploying solutions. 
  • Reply 18 of 53
    JWSC said: Tesla’s AI is monstrously superior to anything else out there and they’ve got hundreds of millions of miles of road data to input into that AI.  You can’t do it all with modeling and simulation.  Tesla along with Panasonic have done their homework on battery technology.  Tesla has refined the electric motor to new levels of performance.  Tesla autos are among the safest in the industry.
    Other car manufacturers have already caught up to Tesla in terms of quality/battery/charging/styling etc. As for the AI part, Tesla's driver assist tech is arguably a waste of time since the driver is supposed to be paying attention to what the car AI is doing, which isn't really that different from simply driving the car without AI. 
    StrangeDayswatto_cobra
  • Reply 19 of 53
    omasouomasou Posts: 572member
    I don't think a physical car was ever a thing. I think it was a car OS.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 20 of 53
    JWSCJWSC Posts: 1,203member
    JWSC said: Tesla’s AI is monstrously superior to anything else out there and they’ve got hundreds of millions of miles of road data to input into that AI.  You can’t do it all with modeling and simulation.  Tesla along with Panasonic have done their homework on battery technology.  Tesla has refined the electric motor to new levels of performance.  Tesla autos are among the safest in the industry.
    Other car manufacturers have already caught up to Tesla in terms of quality/battery/charging/styling etc. As for the AI part, Tesla's driver assist tech is arguably a waste of time since the driver is supposed to be paying attention to what the car AI is doing, which isn't really that different from simply driving the car without AI. 
    Other car manufacturers have definitely NOT caught up to Tesla in terms of battery technology.  They continue to lag in electric motor design, safety, and AI.  Egregiously, the ICE manufacturers currently in transition have chosen to retrofit BEV technology in auto frames designed for ICE.  Idiocy.  Driven by cost saving bean counters no doubt.

    I am very interested in what Lucid, Rivian, and the other new BEV entrants have to offer.  But until they get through their own version of "production hell" it's all talk and no action.  The ICE makers of old are still acting like dinosaurs.  I've been watching them for four decades.  It's the same-ol'-same-old.
    dewmewatto_cobrabyronl
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