Piles seem like a great idea. Especially with the "Smart folders" and databaseFS. The DatabaseFS is something that has been coming for a while. Windows is supposed to get it in next iteratio n or two. Apple would be wise to do so as well. I can see this idea catching on. But I can only see this being a 'Desktop' feature. Almost like the Konfabulator widgets. If you are already bothering to browse folders in Finder then might as well use folders there, but on the desktop you can quickly see what you want with 'piles'.
Quote:
One problem with user-implemented/created metadata tags is something you illustrated incredibly well without even knowing it:
intrumental or instrumental? What if someone inadvertantly spells some of their tags wrong and doesn't realize it? They get endlessly frustrated when their smart search doesn't work. Or what if someone one day decides that this piece of music is instrumental, but tomorrow decides that another piece similar is acoustic? Or that this document is business related and one similar is finance related? Or that..... you get the point. People are disorganized. It would cause this system to fail. My
This is the power of a database FS. You can mark the file as BOTH business AND financial. Whereas now you have to choose and then put it in a /business/ or /financial/ folder. For those that have a hard time thinking of how a database FS would work, think iTunes for ALL your files. Where you can search for your files not only by file name/folder/time stamp, but you can search by category, time created (the time stamp only gives you last time edited), possibly even last person to view it. Of course all of this is a deviation from the way things are now. I, personally, would have a hard time dealing with this when it comes to system files and such. I'm used to seeing them in certain places. The only way this would be powerful in a way I would like is for documents / music / movies. Of course they could always create a 'mock' filesystem that is basically a bunch of queries to the database to find certain 'categories' of files and present them as if they were in a folder. For example if you opened /Users/username/Movies, it would query the database and display all the files that are owned by username and are designated as movies (or something along these lines). That could work.
This is the power of a database FS. You can mark the file as BOTH business AND financial. Whereas now you have to choose and then put it in a /business/ or /financial/ folder.
Or had to choose just *one* label back in 9...
Quote:
I, personally, would have a hard time dealing with this when it comes to system files and such. I'm used to seeing them in certain places. The only way this would be powerful in a way I would like is for documents / music / movies. Of course they could always create a 'mock' filesystem that is basically a bunch of queries to the database to find certain 'categories' of files and present them as if they were in a folder. For example if you opened /Users/username/Movies, it would query the database and display all the files that are owned by username and are designated as movies (or something along these lines). That could work.
Bingo. Or, all fonts that were installed by Apple (/System/Library/Fonts/), all Applications *not* installed by Apple, or anyone else (~/Applications/), etc. Would it take rich metadata? Yeah. Much more than we have *now*, but in a much less acessible form? Not really. It's the access that's the problem.
I saw that Piles preview just before I came here, and, at first, I thought it was quite practical. I've read the piles concept described as a way to view the content of folders without opening those folders (but hey, there seems to be plenty of unclarity on the issue). This sounds nifty. Of course, an implementation is halfway here already: that is right-clicking a folder-icon that is in the dock. Only halfway though.
Anyway: what would rest of piles if you have 200 files in a folder? (on the pile). I can guess, and say that the newest (or maybe, if this smart thing ever lifts off, by any criterion the user chooses) will be shown in more detail (you'll have to 'pile' longer to get to the bottom).
What I thought pretty interesting was the distinction John Siracuse makes in that linked article (on Ars) between Finder browsers and a Finder window. A Finder window being the unique representation of a folder, the/a Finder browser a way to move more quickly between files. This does seem way more logical in a sense than the current Finder. It brings back some of the simpleness of the old Finder, but also brings about something new (though criticists, and myself, will have to realise that there is some parallel to Windows, where one has the regular way of flipping through folders, and where one has the Windows Explorer.)
Also, Smart Folders sound wonderful. Now THAT would be something making Panther worthwhile.
To all those who haven't read the article, I can highly recommend it, it's a good read and it's nice to read about different/better ways in which OS X could be implemented.
That demo is pretty well done and I have to admit I played with the "pile" for a while. It is cool how the file icon second from the bottom rotates smoothly to a dishelved angle! A pure analog to my physical desktop. Also the fact that the drop shadow grows lighter as the files move higher is rather nice.
I haven't read the above article, so these may be rudimentary observations, but the more obvious problems I see are:
1. You really can't " tell just by looking at a Pile what's in it." I can only see an oblique view of the icon of the app of the top file. Maybe with a dock-like view of the files, they will be more identifiable, but the unwarped versions on the dock itself can be difficult to interpret.
2. I would waste alot of time bouncing file icons up and down and get no work done.
3. How would you move a file from one "pile" to another without accidently opening it up?
4. Does the "pile" have its own name? If yes, could they be elegantly named and renamed? If not how do you keep track of them?
Good things I see might include:
1. I would waste alot of time bouncing file icons up and down and get no work done.
2. A quick view of all the files in the "pile" would allow me a brief preview before initiating a batch process or service on those files. A contextual services menu that automatically popped up or access via right-clicking would be cool.
3. The smaller screens of the 12" PowerBooks and iBooks could gain some extra "roominess" within their smaller real estates.
4. It would puzzle and bemuse the windowsgeeks in our IS dept to an extent that would subtly and increasingly gnaw at their brains for hours even after dismissing the whole thing in a snort.
Overall assessment: A real cool feature that I would like to be able to turn on or off.
(edited the spelling of "gnaw".... actually "knaw" would sound the same, no?)
4. It would puzzle and bemuse the windowsgeeks in our IS dept to an extent that would subtly and increasingly gnaw at their brains for hours even after dismissing the whole thing in a snort.
(edited the spelling of "gnaw".... actually "knaw" would sound the same, no?)
:-) Nope! The "g" in "gnaw" is silent - the "kn" in "knaw" is very much audible - and visible!
Don't know if this has been mentioned before so here I go:
What if you could make piles hold aliases of files or folders. You could make a new pile from a menu in the finder. You could name it whatever you want. If you drag a file to the pile, and alias would be made and show up in the pile (like in the demo). You could also create some sort of "smart pile" like smart folders. If you dont need the pile any more you could just trash it. The files would still remain on the computer.
A smart way to have access to files you are currently working on fex.
I thinik the best way to do them is to make them smart
folders, just look at iTunes! All files should have ID3 tags in them, or whatever,,,,,, it can't just be like regular folders...
Playlists is to Smart Playlists
as
Folders is to Piles
iTunes has a good idea of how to catalog files and find the ones you want very quickly. You could have "new pictures" or "edited recently" and with MetaData tags, the possibilties are endless....like, you could add your own custom tags like "progress" for final cut pro files or "review" to have a pile of file you need to review before you send them out again..... of course, Piles in Finder would be totally applescriptable, and have an elegant creation and editing window.....
One of the most important features in Jaguar will be MetaData, and in that, Piles!
Don't know if this has been mentioned before so here I go:
What if you could make piles hold aliases of files or folders. You could make a new pile from a menu in the finder. You could name it whatever you want. If you drag a file to the pile, and alias would be made and show up in the pile (like in the demo). You could also create some sort of "smart pile" like smart folders. If you dont need the pile any more you could just trash it. The files would still remain on the computer.
A smart way to have access to files you are currently working on fex.
Smart Piles seem to be a popular theme, but you could make smart folders just as easily....but NETROMac, your idea of piles being groups of alias' is intriguing to me! It would have to be a dramatic and consistent change in the whole GUI of the desktop so that newcomers and old Macheads as well would not get confused. The look of the pile itself is so different that it just might work.
As a matter of fact since I learned desktop management on a Mac and I have to use a PC at work I am always being told I have too many files on the desktop and the frickin' PC slows down. If I could convert an entire desktop of files and icons into a "pile" with one click lets say. Then I could clean the screen, but keep everything in its place and the "pile" could be a viewable icon called "Desktop." Multiple piles could then be multiple desktops 'a la Virtual Desktops and if everything were an alias you wouldn't have to be too worried about losing anything.
Again I suppose there is no reason why this can't just be a folder in the dock, but I do like the idea of making something truly unique on the desktop that M$ couldn't copy!
It's an fine idea, but "smart folders" could have dozens or hundreds of entries, depending on what parameters are set.
Imagine what a huge pile a smart folder for MP3s would create. How would you sort through such a thing?
I think piles on the desktop could only work if a pile would hold no more than 20 or so documents combined.
I don't know. I just don't see Apple spending the time and effort on an GUI element that, while somewhat potentially satisfying, has such minor benefit over a folder, and so many more issues to solve.
I *do* think the ideas of piles, or stacks, lend themselves in interesting ways to window management, on the other hand...
It's an fine idea, but "smart folders" could have dozens or hundreds of entries, depending on what parameters are set.
You are right of course. But if you first make the smart folder framework it would be nice to have it as an option in piles also. If you make a pile of say todays documents it would start to accumulate aliases of the documents you are using trough the day, and I at least open the same documents several times each day.
Quote:
Originally posted by Hobbes
Imagine what a huge pile a smart folder for MP3s would create. How would you sort through such a thing?
Ok, about smart folders: If you make a smart folder that contains all mp3's on your mac you could use metadata to filter the folder trough some form for advanced search in the toolbar of the folder. And hey, you could also use iTunes. Piles is not intended for this use.
Quote:
Originally posted by Hobbes
I think piles on the desktop could only work if a pile would hold no more than 20 or so documents combined.
I think it could work even with more documents than that, but it's clearly not going to work well with hundreds of different documents.
Quote:
Originally posted by Hobbes
I don't know. I just don't see Apple spending the time and effort on an GUI element that, while somewhat potentially satisfying, has such minor benefit over a folder, and so many more issues to solve.
The main benefits with piles as I see it are these:
1. They are perfect for redusing clutter on your desktop.
2. Needs only one step to execute compared to folders that needs at least two steps and often more and thus saves you time.
Quote:
Originally posted by Hobbes
I *do* think the ideas of piles, or stacks, lend themselves in interesting ways to window management, on the other hand...
Again I suppose there is no reason why this can't just be a folder in the dock, but I do like the idea of making something truly unique on the desktop that M$ couldn't copy!
I agree. It's important for Apple to include as many unique features in OS X as possible. They have to be useful of course, but a feature that is useful for only a few users is still a useful feature. And you have to think about the WOW factor too. An implementation of Piles with rendered thumb previews as well as general file info and silk smooth animation is bound to impress a lot of people.
Comments
Can you make iTunes automatically choose the best fitting equalizer setting per song ?
Interesting thread BTW
One problem with user-implemented/created metadata tags is something you illustrated incredibly well without even knowing it:
intrumental or instrumental? What if someone inadvertantly spells some of their tags wrong and doesn't realize it? They get endlessly frustrated when their smart search doesn't work. Or what if someone one day decides that this piece of music is instrumental, but tomorrow decides that another piece similar is acoustic? Or that this document is business related and one similar is finance related? Or that..... you get the point. People are disorganized. It would cause this system to fail. My
This is the power of a database FS. You can mark the file as BOTH business AND financial. Whereas now you have to choose and then put it in a /business/ or /financial/ folder. For those that have a hard time thinking of how a database FS would work, think iTunes for ALL your files. Where you can search for your files not only by file name/folder/time stamp, but you can search by category, time created (the time stamp only gives you last time edited), possibly even last person to view it. Of course all of this is a deviation from the way things are now. I, personally, would have a hard time dealing with this when it comes to system files and such. I'm used to seeing them in certain places. The only way this would be powerful in a way I would like is for documents / music / movies. Of course they could always create a 'mock' filesystem that is basically a bunch of queries to the database to find certain 'categories' of files and present them as if they were in a folder. For example if you opened /Users/username/Movies, it would query the database and display all the files that are owned by username and are designated as movies (or something along these lines). That could work.
Originally posted by pyr3
This is the power of a database FS. You can mark the file as BOTH business AND financial. Whereas now you have to choose and then put it in a /business/ or /financial/ folder.
Or had to choose just *one* label back in 9...
I, personally, would have a hard time dealing with this when it comes to system files and such. I'm used to seeing them in certain places. The only way this would be powerful in a way I would like is for documents / music / movies. Of course they could always create a 'mock' filesystem that is basically a bunch of queries to the database to find certain 'categories' of files and present them as if they were in a folder. For example if you opened /Users/username/Movies, it would query the database and display all the files that are owned by username and are designated as movies (or something along these lines). That could work.
Bingo. Or, all fonts that were installed by Apple (/System/Library/Fonts/), all Applications *not* installed by Apple, or anyone else (~/Applications/), etc. Would it take rich metadata? Yeah. Much more than we have *now*, but in a much less acessible form? Not really. It's the access that's the problem.
PILES PREVIEW
Pretty well done! Not sure if I'm a fan of the UI, but it just might work if implemented well...
I wonder how piles work in list view or column view...
Just listed normally? Only piles on the desktop?
Any thoughts?
---------------
RosettaStoned
Anyway: what would rest of piles if you have 200 files in a folder? (on the pile). I can guess, and say that the newest (or maybe, if this smart thing ever lifts off, by any criterion the user chooses) will be shown in more detail (you'll have to 'pile' longer to get to the bottom).
What I thought pretty interesting was the distinction John Siracuse makes in that linked article (on Ars) between Finder browsers and a Finder window. A Finder window being the unique representation of a folder, the/a Finder browser a way to move more quickly between files. This does seem way more logical in a sense than the current Finder. It brings back some of the simpleness of the old Finder, but also brings about something new (though criticists, and myself, will have to realise that there is some parallel to Windows, where one has the regular way of flipping through folders, and where one has the Windows Explorer.)
Also, Smart Folders sound wonderful. Now THAT would be something making Panther worthwhile.
To all those who haven't read the article, I can highly recommend it, it's a good read and it's nice to read about different/better ways in which OS X could be implemented.
I haven't read the above article, so these may be rudimentary observations, but the more obvious problems I see are:
1. You really can't " tell just by looking at a Pile what's in it." I can only see an oblique view of the icon of the app of the top file. Maybe with a dock-like view of the files, they will be more identifiable, but the unwarped versions on the dock itself can be difficult to interpret.
2. I would waste alot of time bouncing file icons up and down and get no work done.
3. How would you move a file from one "pile" to another without accidently opening it up?
4. Does the "pile" have its own name? If yes, could they be elegantly named and renamed? If not how do you keep track of them?
Good things I see might include:
1. I would waste alot of time bouncing file icons up and down and get no work done.
2. A quick view of all the files in the "pile" would allow me a brief preview before initiating a batch process or service on those files. A contextual services menu that automatically popped up or access via right-clicking would be cool.
3. The smaller screens of the 12" PowerBooks and iBooks could gain some extra "roominess" within their smaller real estates.
4. It would puzzle and bemuse the windowsgeeks in our IS dept to an extent that would subtly and increasingly gnaw at their brains for hours even after dismissing the whole thing in a snort.
Overall assessment: A real cool feature that I would like to be able to turn on or off.
(edited the spelling of "gnaw".... actually "knaw" would sound the same, no?)
Originally posted by MacGregor
4. It would puzzle and bemuse the windowsgeeks in our IS dept to an extent that would subtly and increasingly gnaw at their brains for hours even after dismissing the whole thing in a snort.
(edited the spelling of "gnaw".... actually "knaw" would sound the same, no?)
:-) Nope! The "g" in "gnaw" is silent - the "kn" in "knaw" is very much audible - and visible!
engpjp
What if you could make piles hold aliases of files or folders. You could make a new pile from a menu in the finder. You could name it whatever you want. If you drag a file to the pile, and alias would be made and show up in the pile (like in the demo). You could also create some sort of "smart pile" like smart folders. If you dont need the pile any more you could just trash it. The files would still remain on the computer.
A smart way to have access to files you are currently working on fex.
folders, just look at iTunes! All files should have ID3 tags in them, or whatever,,,,,, it can't just be like regular folders...
Playlists is to Smart Playlists
as
Folders is to Piles
iTunes has a good idea of how to catalog files and find the ones you want very quickly. You could have "new pictures" or "edited recently" and with MetaData tags, the possibilties are endless....like, you could add your own custom tags like "progress" for final cut pro files or "review" to have a pile of file you need to review before you send them out again..... of course, Piles in Finder would be totally applescriptable, and have an elegant creation and editing window.....
One of the most important features in Jaguar will be MetaData, and in that, Piles!
Originally posted by NETROMac
Don't know if this has been mentioned before so here I go:
What if you could make piles hold aliases of files or folders. You could make a new pile from a menu in the finder. You could name it whatever you want. If you drag a file to the pile, and alias would be made and show up in the pile (like in the demo). You could also create some sort of "smart pile" like smart folders. If you dont need the pile any more you could just trash it. The files would still remain on the computer.
A smart way to have access to files you are currently working on fex.
Smart Piles seem to be a popular theme, but you could make smart folders just as easily....but NETROMac, your idea of piles being groups of alias' is intriguing to me! It would have to be a dramatic and consistent change in the whole GUI of the desktop so that newcomers and old Macheads as well would not get confused. The look of the pile itself is so different that it just might work.
As a matter of fact since I learned desktop management on a Mac and I have to use a PC at work I am always being told I have too many files on the desktop and the frickin' PC slows down. If I could convert an entire desktop of files and icons into a "pile" with one click lets say. Then I could clean the screen, but keep everything in its place and the "pile" could be a viewable icon called "Desktop." Multiple piles could then be multiple desktops 'a la Virtual Desktops and if everything were an alias you wouldn't have to be too worried about losing anything.
Again I suppose there is no reason why this can't just be a folder in the dock, but I do like the idea of making something truly unique on the desktop that M$ couldn't copy!
Imagine what a huge pile a smart folder for MP3s would create. How would you sort through such a thing?
I think piles on the desktop could only work if a pile would hold no more than 20 or so documents combined.
I don't know. I just don't see Apple spending the time and effort on an GUI element that, while somewhat potentially satisfying, has such minor benefit over a folder, and so many more issues to solve.
I *do* think the ideas of piles, or stacks, lend themselves in interesting ways to window management, on the other hand...
Originally posted by Hobbes
It's an fine idea, but "smart folders" could have dozens or hundreds of entries, depending on what parameters are set.
You are right of course. But if you first make the smart folder framework it would be nice to have it as an option in piles also. If you make a pile of say todays documents it would start to accumulate aliases of the documents you are using trough the day, and I at least open the same documents several times each day.
Originally posted by Hobbes
Imagine what a huge pile a smart folder for MP3s would create. How would you sort through such a thing?
Ok, about smart folders: If you make a smart folder that contains all mp3's on your mac you could use metadata to filter the folder trough some form for advanced search in the toolbar of the folder. And hey, you could also use iTunes. Piles is not intended for this use.
Originally posted by Hobbes
I think piles on the desktop could only work if a pile would hold no more than 20 or so documents combined.
I think it could work even with more documents than that, but it's clearly not going to work well with hundreds of different documents.
Originally posted by Hobbes
I don't know. I just don't see Apple spending the time and effort on an GUI element that, while somewhat potentially satisfying, has such minor benefit over a folder, and so many more issues to solve.
The main benefits with piles as I see it are these:
1. They are perfect for redusing clutter on your desktop.
2. Needs only one step to execute compared to folders that needs at least two steps and often more and thus saves you time.
Originally posted by Hobbes
I *do* think the ideas of piles, or stacks, lend themselves in interesting ways to window management, on the other hand...
I agree
Originally posted by MacGregor
Again I suppose there is no reason why this can't just be a folder in the dock, but I do like the idea of making something truly unique on the desktop that M$ couldn't copy!
I agree. It's important for Apple to include as many unique features in OS X as possible. They have to be useful of course, but a feature that is useful for only a few users is still a useful feature. And you have to think about the WOW factor too. An implementation of Piles with rendered thumb previews as well as general file info and silk smooth animation is bound to impress a lot of people.