Apple chose a bad year to launch expensive iPads that aren't compelling

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  • Reply 21 of 53
    Remember when AppleInsider used to constantly complain about Apple's laptops not getting the Intel chip refreshes as fast as Windows laptops? Now a chip refresh is bad.
    Gotta attract all those MacRumors-style trolls somehow.
    mike1lkruppzeus423watto_cobra
  • Reply 22 of 53
    nubusnubus Posts: 386member
    mike1 said:

    WiFi 6E would be a waste of resources and cost at this time. What is the market penetration of WiFi routers with 6E? Negligible, at best. What benefit would BT 5.3 give to the end user in an Apple TV? Is there a keyboard that won't work or headphones that won't pair?

    Why is WiFi 6E a waste? Urbanization and network congestion is the standard environment for an iPhone in most of the world. In schools, offices, and homes. WiFi 6E can deliver 2-3x more channels. Apple did introduce eSim before most carriers supported it. USB before devices were available. And the original "Airport" Wifi before anyone had a Wifi router.

    As for Bluetooth 5.3.This extends battery life and improves audio quality on AirPods Pro. Why introduce a 4K TV-box with mediocre wireless audio? Seems Apple decided to spend it all on A15 Bionic instead of improving network and audio.
    williamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 23 of 53
    The iPad hardware is second to none and is very compelling. However it's the software that is glaringly lacking. Let's face it the appeal of the iPad is portability but at the cost of arm fatigue and keyboard. Right now it's most appealing to some artists. If you use magic keyboard might as well get a MBP. I believe Apple is betting on video editors and the reason they marketed DaVinci Resolve before FCP is to encourage companies to invest in the platform.
    williamlondonOfermuthuk_vanalingamwatto_cobra
  • Reply 25 of 53
    thttht Posts: 5,450member
    designr said:
    Apple is certainly fighting upward price pressure on the input side (parts, labor, etc.) and trying to maintain margins and trying to maintain a lineup of products at various price points to not destroy the demand side. No small feat.

    Some might argue they can and should take a hit on margins. Maybe. But they have a business model built on their margin level. They are also a publicly traded company. I'm certain they would take a big hit if they started showing weakness on margins.

    Others might argue that taking lower margins (through lower prices) will spur greater demand and they'll make up for it. Demand curves do slope downward of course. But I'm sure Apple has modeled this. They almost certainly have a pretty good sense of what the price-elasticity-of-demand (how much more they could sell at lower prices) is for their products and their brand.

    Apple does need to clean up an increasingly cluttered and confusing product catalog. This clutter may be a symptom of trying to manage all of the above and may be reduced when some aspect of these pressures eases up or stabilizes. Maybe. Then again, this might be a bunch of marketing, sales, and supply chain people trying to optimize market segmentation.
    Loved your thoughtful post, but I disagree with the last paragraph. iPads are something like a $40b business for Apple. I don't think it is possible to sell more units with a simpler lineup because the use cases are so varied. Software and services is a huge part of it, but hardware is a big chunk of it. The lineup serves the most casual users with the iPad 9 and iPad 10 at lower price tiers. These will be discounted to $270 and $380 or something like that for holiday sales and such. The iPad Air and Pro 11 are the upsell choices for more demanding users. Note taking, music notation, games, business stuff, PDF documents, more premium, etc. The Pro models are for people who are essentially using them as their primary machine or as a specialist device.

    They've basically filled out every price tier from $330 to $1100. It's a sliding scale of what you get per dollar, designed to upsell. Even the iPad mini, which is a special edition type of device, basically a small iPad Air which doesn't fit in an easily discerned display/$ type curve, doesn't overlap in price tier. The iPhone lineup, currently at 8 models, overlaps in price, and the benefits between the iPhone 12 and the iPhone 14 aren't that big, but it doesn't present issues for Apple's iPhone sales of people choosing what phone to get. People do understand. 

    If there is an iPad Pro 14", it's going to be $1500. It's another product in the lineup but won't cause confusion with its price point. I half think an 7" iPod Touch, basically an iPad with a different aspect ratio, at $250 could be a viable product. Just something to play music and watch videos with. Something is easily pocketable. That's just the mundane established stuff. They could go really different if they wanted.
    williamlondondesignrwatto_cobra
  • Reply 26 of 53
    "Apple chose a bad year to launch expensive iPads that aren't compelling"

    hmm. Is there ever a good year to launch expensive iPads that aren't compelling? 
    :p
     

    I get it, incremental upgrades aren't that exciting. I would think they mainly appeal to those that haven't upgraded in a while, and provide a bit of a nudge to do so. Don't most of us upgrade mobile devices after at least two years and often much longer? We can't expect major upgrades or new product/CPUs every year.
    entropyswatto_cobra
  • Reply 27 of 53
    slurpyslurpy Posts: 5,384member
    Why are they "less than Stellar"? This opinion piece doesn't make a good argument. Should Apple be slashing all their prices now? The products they were replacing were already stellar and best of class. These are even better, even though they're becoming more difficult to improve in massive ways. 

    These updates improve their product line even further, and for people who ACTUALLY use Apple products, I think they will be happy. 
    thtwilliamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 28 of 53
    lkrupp said:
    Appleinsider: DON’T BUY THESE! THEY SUCK AND ARE WAY TOO EXPENSIVE!

    Apple’s loyal customer base: Fuck you Appleinsider, we’re buying them anyway! 
    As no else will will, I guess you do need to do it to yourself elcrapo! Moving on, I think AI is right on the money here.
    williamlondonOferentropys
  • Reply 29 of 53
    Don’t know what this article is on about. 

    Never a bad year to launch new, better products. 

    Especially in the case of iPad Pro. Spec bump and the price stays the same? Yes pleas. 

    My only gripe is I hope the iPad soft launch doesn’t delay the MacBook Pro spec bump. Been waiting on that for a while. 

    Hopefully not more than a month from now. 
    thtwilliamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 30 of 53
    Remember when AppleInsider used to constantly complain about Apple's laptops not getting the Intel chip refreshes as fast as Windows laptops? Now a chip refresh is bad.
    Did you even read the article?  The point is, very minimal improvements with a massive price increase.  PRICE INCREASE, not "chip refresh".
    macplusplusCheeseFreezemuthuk_vanalingamgrandact73
  • Reply 31 of 53
    Tuubor said:

    I have to disagree with the Apple Pencil hover feature. It is very significant for artists. This type of pen tip detection is on every graphic tablet and was the one big feature missing from the iPad. It is great for graphic designers but also for us photographers. The ability to preview the pen size and opacity before applying a mask in Capture One or Lightroom makes a huge difference in a pro workflow. With this feature, the ability to connect to an Apple Studio Display and all the other greatness of the iPad combined I am beginning to consider the iPad Pro for my photo editing workflow.


    I feel like this article was really negative. Yeah sure those are minor upgrades and there is some silly stuff like the basic iPad not supporting the 2nd gen pencil, but this is a mature market already. Everything is incremental.

    And if Apple left the price the same as previous gen, it would be a normal cycle.  But huge increases in price for just a chip refresh?  That's what people are saying NO to.

    As much as Apple fan-people can't hate on Apple no matter what, at some point when Apple keeps raising the price for little to no changes or innovation, you have to say no.
    edited October 2022 muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 32 of 53
    red oakred oak Posts: 1,089member
    It is hard to follow this meandering mass of words 

    Let’s label this from the top an “opinion” diatribe 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 33 of 53
    tht said:
    Totally disagree with the takes in this article.

    I hear people saying the lack of Ethernet is bad on the $130 Apple TV. When I hear that, I immediately think those people are crazy. Crazy for not understanding what the mass market is, crazy for not being introspective of their desires versus the mass market. The mass market does not have Ethernet. They aren't going to wire their house with it. If their house or home has it, they won't use it. It's WiFi all the time. This Apple TV is a Christmas gift fare for the mass market. Perhaps Apple needs to cut it to $100, but at $130, it's a great price for what you get relative to other TV dongles.

    If you are buyer that wants Ethernet, you can get an Apple TV with it for $150. This used to be the price of the lower end Apple TV 4K. The new one is basically 50% to 100% more in everything: CPU, GPU, RAM and storage. And it is fanless to boot. That's a pretty good deal.

    I would recommend the $450 iPad 10th gen over the $330 iPad 9th gen. There is 1 GB more RAM, a 10% larger display, faster CPU, GPU, and RAM. It's simply a better machine, and it's worth $120 more. There is perhaps 2 reasons for getting the 9th gen model: a buyer doesn't want to spend $450 and buyer wants the home button. The former will be solved with time, the latter is one of those things that can't be solved and people will have to live with it.

    If people want better iPads, they spend more. Same as it always is. That ~11" iPad form factor now scales from $450 to $2100. The more the buyer is willing to pay, the more and better they get. From 10th gen to Air to Pro, the quality improves. The case gets thinner. The displays get better, the performance gets better, the stylus performance gets better. If you are just a news browser, iPad 10th gen is the way to go. You like to play games, step up to the Air. If the iPad is the primary computing device you plan on using for years, get the Pro or perhaps the 12.9".
    Yes, agreed. Replacing a 6yo iPad with only 16g storage. After seeing how good the Magic Keyboard is, I can’t wait to pair it with a new 12.9” iPad Pro. Here is Australia, this combination is quite the eye watering price but iPad OS and a Magic Keyboard makes this an outstanding piece of leisure and productivity kit. Considering we are only replacing the old iPad due to tiny storage, there is no reason not to expect 8-10yrs of usefulness out of a new iPad Pro. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 34 of 53
    HrebHreb Posts: 83member
    It seems to me Apple knows they are facing a very long product cycle and decided to push some incremental improvements out to market now, knowing that these are going to be the products available for sale while they're working on getting bigger a product line overhaul out, possibly 2 years away.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 35 of 53
    The point that is overlooked is that buyers will look at the 10th generation iPad and say I can get an iPad that looks almost exactly like the iPad Pro for $350 less, and it is only $120 more than the old looking one. Now that’s a deal! That fact alone will drive more sales then all the spec lists combined.
    mike1watto_cobra
  • Reply 36 of 53
    JinTechJinTech Posts: 1,023member
    mike1 said:
    nubus said:
    mac_dog said:
    Oh, man. You sure took a lot of space to make your claim. I guess we’ll have to wait until apples next earnings call. 
    Apple isn't doing a full Nokia yet, but this is a terrible combination of greed and chaos.

    4K TV that would benefit from Wifi 6E is left without. iPad Pro 11 is still without mini-LED. 4K TV is stuck on Bluetooth 5.0. Pencil dongles is now a thing. The new MacBook Air M2 got 29% more expensive in Europe. With iPad 10th it seems to be +50%. 

    It does show us where Apple is heading. iPhone is the only platform without USB C. Wifi 6E will be part of MacBook Pro M2, but again... iPhone 14 Pro is left without. Bluetooth 5.3 is going to all devices making AirPods Max and HomePod mini candidates for updates. The home button will be removed from the next iPhone SE. M2... iPad Pro couldn't even support full speed for M1, and M2 won't improve on this making  3nm = M3 even more important.

    Give me a break. Apple has not made "bleeding edge" products in quite some time, if ever. Apple is not a niche manufacturer, they are built to sell lots of devices to the masses.

    WiFi 6E would be a waste of resources and cost at this time. What is the market penetration of WiFi routers with 6E? Negligible, at best.
    What benefit would BT 5.3 give to the end user in an Apple TV? Is there a keyboard that won't work or headphones that won't pair?
    Apple hater much? In my personal opinion, the M series of Mac chips is pretty bleeding edge. My M1 MacBook Pro Max is easily the fastest Mac I have owned and really helps me get my work done much faster and much cooler! Oh not to mention, the macOS is fully optimized to take advantage of it, unlike anything else on the market.
    edited October 2022 watto_cobra
  • Reply 37 of 53
    "It's not great when your brand new product makes people want the old one"

    There have been a whole series of these 'backward upgrades' recently, not least the MacBook Air. Apple make some minor on-paper spec improvements but trash the design. 
  • Reply 38 of 53
    dewmedewme Posts: 5,372member
    If your criteria for rating the value of a product upgrade is the degree to which the new version inspires you to upgrade from the immediate prior version, then yes, these current versions have fairly low upgrade value. On the other hand, if you are totally new to the product in question or if you have been waiting for a few years to upgrade from an older version of these products, the upgrade value is significantly higher.

    At the very least, if you have an older version and decided to wait out the immediate prior version, at least you’re seeing a measurable bump up for having waited one more version cycle. It may not be as great a leap forward as you had hoped for, but in most cases you probably won’t be wishing that you had made the move on the last version. 

    I noticed the vast majority of tech sites, and those focused on Apple in particular, seem to expect spectacular leaps forward year-over-year in new versions of existing products. As any product gets further along in its lifecycle the rate of change in new features often slows down. If we’re lucky and you have an innovative product supplier, they will periodically reinvigorate the product lifecycle and reverse some of the slowing rate of change by doing a major redesign. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t.

    I personally consider the Porsche 911 one of the most compelling cases of a product undergoing both incremental year-over-year updates punctuated by the periodic infusion of design changes that always took it to a new level without deviating too far from the essence of the original design. If Apple can replicate a little bit of the same model the generations of 911 designers have followed with its archetypal products including the iPhone, iPad, and MacBook Pro I think they will be well rewarded and will maintain a loyal customer base and continue to pull in new customers and converts from other manufacturers’ offerings. 
    mike1watto_cobra
  • Reply 39 of 53
    netrox said:
    Remember iPad Pro A12 to A12Z where the only difference is the GPU speed? 

    M2 is much faster than M1 compared to the upgrade from A12 to A12Z. Both CPU and GPU are increased significantly from M1 to M2. The WiFi increased as well allowing people to transfer big files in less time. 

    The fact that the cost stays the same is surprising considering that the prices keep going up. It's likely the next iteration will see a price hike for more features. 

    The pencil hover is not a "gimmick" - it's very useful and I've thought about it many times how it would be nice to have that feature. It will make the UX more pleasant and will likely be used for future iterations of iPads. 

    Should people with M1 upgrade? Definitely no for a vast majority of them. Will they notice if they upgrade from A12Z? Unlikely unless they're using it for content creation where they would definitely notice speed improvements.

    I own A12Z and I don't see any reason for me to upgrade - it is still responsive and fast and does everything I need. I read, I write notes, and I watch videos occasionally. I don't use it to make videos or photo editing although they can be used for that. I prefer to use my iMac 27 for that.  
    As an illustrator who uses the M1 iPad Pro, the addition of Hover has me really thinking of upgrading.  

    As for this article, it's why I've lost interest in tech reviews and tech YouTube. I used to love it, but the past couple of years have gotten bad. People purposely trying to find faults in devices, all to get the clicks.  They make a big deal griping about features that are really niche features.  Honestly, how many people are actually clamoring or actually going to use 2nd monitors on their iPads?  Aside from tech YouTubers, who is actually screaming for Final Cut Pro for it? Me, yeah, I'd like a version of Photoshop that is not what we have, but that's on Adobe. I see them complain about the M1 and M2 (not Pro/Max/Ultra) only having support for one extra monitor...how many people actually use more than 2 monitors in their work?  I'm just over the negativity over them, because they're complaining because its not catering to the use case of .001% of the users and making a big deal about it, because they're chasing the clicks.
    lkruppdewmeJinTechwatto_cobra
  • Reply 40 of 53
    I suspect the Apple Pencil 2 and the landscape camera are mutually exclusive. 

    The Pencil 2 charges when it snaps to the "top" of the iPad (when used in landscape orientation). There's a window on the side of the iPad Pro for the inductive charger, right where the camera module would need to sit. With a camera in that spot, there's probably no room for the charger, meaning there'd be no way for users to charge their Pencil 2.

    But what about an adapter? After all, you need an adapter to charge a Pencil 1 on the new iPad, because it doesn't have a Lightning port. Well, the Pencil 1 adapter is passive—two jacks with some wires between them. It's cheap to manufacture. A Pencil 2 adapter would need a charging coil, active circuitry to drive it... and some solution for how the Pencil 2 uses the inductive charger to pair to the iPad. It'd cost a lot more than $9.

    Can't snap the pencil to the left of the iPad; that's where the power button and microphones are. Can't snap to the right; that's the USB-C port and speakers. The bottom? It'd block the hinge of the keyboard case.

    Put the camera on the bottom? Dell tried that, and got pilloried in reviews for making a laptop with an up-your-nose camera view.

    Plus, on the Pro, you've got Face ID. A landscape camera can be covered when you hold it in portrait mode, blocking Face ID from working. On the base iPad, you've still got Touch ID, so it doesn't matter... unless you try a handheld FaceTime call in portrait mode...
    crowleydewmewatto_cobra
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