Apple chose a bad year to launch expensive iPads that aren't compelling

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 53
    mike1mike1 Posts: 3,268member
    nubus said:
    mike1 said:

    WiFi 6E would be a waste of resources and cost at this time. What is the market penetration of WiFi routers with 6E? Negligible, at best. What benefit would BT 5.3 give to the end user in an Apple TV? Is there a keyboard that won't work or headphones that won't pair?

    Why is WiFi 6E a waste? Urbanization and network congestion is the standard environment for an iPhone in most of the world. In schools, offices, and homes. WiFi 6E can deliver 2-3x more channels. Apple did introduce eSim before most carriers supported it. USB before devices were available. And the original "Airport" Wifi before anyone had a Wifi router.

    As for Bluetooth 5.3.This extends battery life and improves audio quality on AirPods Pro. Why introduce a 4K TV-box with mediocre wireless audio? Seems Apple decided to spend it all on A15 Bionic instead of improving network and audio.

    I never said 6E would never be important. I said currently, market penetration is negligible. Therefore, they should consider that before adding additional cost to add a feature nobody will use in this product cycle. Maybe in a couple of years.
    williamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 42 of 53
    mike1mike1 Posts: 3,268member
    JinTech said:
    mike1 said:
    nubus said:
    mac_dog said:
    Oh, man. You sure took a lot of space to make your claim. I guess we’ll have to wait until apples next earnings call. 
    Apple isn't doing a full Nokia yet, but this is a terrible combination of greed and chaos.

    4K TV that would benefit from Wifi 6E is left without. iPad Pro 11 is still without mini-LED. 4K TV is stuck on Bluetooth 5.0. Pencil dongles is now a thing. The new MacBook Air M2 got 29% more expensive in Europe. With iPad 10th it seems to be +50%. 

    It does show us where Apple is heading. iPhone is the only platform without USB C. Wifi 6E will be part of MacBook Pro M2, but again... iPhone 14 Pro is left without. Bluetooth 5.3 is going to all devices making AirPods Max and HomePod mini candidates for updates. The home button will be removed from the next iPhone SE. M2... iPad Pro couldn't even support full speed for M1, and M2 won't improve on this making  3nm = M3 even more important.

    Give me a break. Apple has not made "bleeding edge" products in quite some time, if ever. Apple is not a niche manufacturer, they are built to sell lots of devices to the masses.

    WiFi 6E would be a waste of resources and cost at this time. What is the market penetration of WiFi routers with 6E? Negligible, at best.
    What benefit would BT 5.3 give to the end user in an Apple TV? Is there a keyboard that won't work or headphones that won't pair?
    Apple hater much? In my personal opinion, the M series of Mac chips is pretty bleeding edge. My M1 MacBook Pro Max is easily the fastest Mac I have owned and really helps me get my work done much faster and much cooler! Oh not to mention, the macOS is fully optimized to take advantage of it, unlike anything else on the market.

    Nope. Not at all. Quite the opposite actually. Agree that the M1 and other Apple chips improve product performance in ways that the user can benefit from. What I was commenting on earlier was the meaningless inclusion of technologies and standards that will not provide any user benefit in this product cycle. For years, true Apple haters have complained that Apple only used XXGB of memory or the memory was not the fastest or some other nitpick. At the end of the day, the sum of the parts resulted in a far superior product.
    williamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 43 of 53
    macwhiz said:
    I suspect the Apple Pencil 2 and the landscape camera are mutually exclusive. 

    The Pencil 2 charges when it snaps to the "top" of the iPad (when used in landscape orientation). There's a window on the side of the iPad Pro for the inductive charger, right where the camera module would need to sit. With a camera in that spot, there's probably no room for the charger, meaning there'd be no way for users to charge their Pencil 2.

    But what about an adapter? After all, you need an adapter to charge a Pencil 1 on the new iPad, because it doesn't have a Lightning port. Well, the Pencil 1 adapter is passive—two jacks with some wires between them. It's cheap to manufacture. A Pencil 2 adapter would need a charging coil, active circuitry to drive it... and some solution for how the Pencil 2 uses the inductive charger to pair to the iPad. It'd cost a lot more than $9.

    Can't snap the pencil to the left of the iPad; that's where the power button and microphones are. Can't snap to the right; that's the USB-C port and speakers. The bottom? It'd block the hinge of the keyboard case.

    Put the camera on the bottom? Dell tried that, and got pilloried in reviews for making a laptop with an up-your-nose camera view.

    Plus, on the Pro, you've got Face ID. A landscape camera can be covered when you hold it in portrait mode, blocking Face ID from working. On the base iPad, you've still got Touch ID, so it doesn't matter... unless you try a handheld FaceTime call in portrait mode...
    I think what they did with the iPad is saying those clamoring for landscape cameras, "hey! we can move it...but there's going to be compromise."   My wish is eventually in the future, Apple figures out a way for a battery free Apple Pencil, so there would be no need for charging.  I don't know how much they can go down that route without infringing on Wacom drivers.  And even with those, there's compromise.  I don't miss having to calibrate my screen like I did with Wacom or Huion tablets
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 44 of 53
    About the choice for the old Apple Pencil 1 on the iPad 10th gen. 

    I think I know why Apple chose to just support Pencil 1 on the new regular iPad. My guess is that somehow they didn’t figure out yet how to combine a magnetic charging spot and the FaceTime cam at the same side. They must badly interfere each other technically.

    Now they’ve put the front camera on the desired place, in horizontal position, I think they were not able to fit the charging component right above and/or behind it. And since the Apple Pencil 2 can only be charged on a magnetic edge, Apple chose to keep using Pencil 1 for the iPad 10th gen. Since it can’t be charged on the short side because of space and components. That’s probably the reason the Pro and the Air still have the front camera on the short side. Because people need to charge the Pencil 2 on the top, when holding the device horizontally (also in combination with the keyboard). I read a lot of reviews and I didn’t hear anyone talking about this possibility. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 45 of 53
    thttht Posts: 5,363member
    About the choice for the old Apple Pencil 1 on the iPad 10th gen. 

    I think I know why Apple chose to just support Pencil 1 on the new regular iPad. My guess is that somehow they didn’t figure out yet how to combine a magnetic charging spot and the FaceTime cam at the same side. They must badly interfere each other technically.

    Now they’ve put the front camera on the desired place, in horizontal position, I think they were not able to fit the charging component right above and/or behind it. And since the Apple Pencil 2 can only be charged on a magnetic edge, Apple chose to keep using Pencil 1 for the iPad 10th gen. Since it can’t be charged on the short side because of space and components. That’s probably the reason the Pro and the Air still have the front camera on the short side. Because people need to charge the Pencil 2 on the top, when holding the device horizontally (also in combination with the keyboard). I read a lot of reviews and I didn’t hear anyone talking about this possibility. 
    I think it is purely a product marketing decision. Really nothing else. The product marketing team said the iPad 10 will only support the Pencil 1. The Lightning-to-USBC adaptor was the "least" amount of work to make that happen, outside of anything else involving the capacitive sensing layer in the display and its drivers. There are very good "product marketing 101" reasons for doing this. It won't change unless there is some other business force or company strategic direction that encourages the use of the Pencil

    For iPads with Pencil 2 induction charging, if they can't center the front cam below the induction coils and magnets, they will just move the front cam or cams+sensors off-center by 0.5 to 1 inch, however wide the Pencil induction charger is. People have been living with off-center front cams on iPhones for a very long time. Nobody noticed. It will be the same with the iPads. If the front cams are off-center by an inch, nobody is going to notice.

    dewmewatto_cobra
  • Reply 46 of 53
    entropysentropys Posts: 4,135member
    Why do I feel like I’ve heard this kind of critique before? As well as the usual blowhard “Apple sux” comments. And OMG... Wozniak in charge.... Hahahah... The guy who’s mom had to clean out his car and cash $100k checks he’d forgotten. Yup. Definitely CEO material.

    Echoing an earlier post, I guess the financials will tell the tale. Presumably, Apple knows how to sell its products to its target audiences. When it fails to do so we’ve seen reversals and redos. including some shake-ups. So this is a lot of kerfuffle over not very much.

    Pretty sure Apple's video is shorter and more interesting than this article was, at any rate. 

    Yes I laughed at the Woz reference. But at that point, what would Steve Jobs do? For a start reamed the supply chain bean counter who though requiring a dongle for an apple pencil was a remotely good idea, or that while dropping Ethernet from the base ATV4K was OK because buyers probably wouldn’t use it anyway, also skipping thread/HomeKit to encourage the upsell was pretty much against HomeKit adoption for such a long lived device.  
    edited October 2022 watto_cobra
  • Reply 47 of 53
    entropysentropys Posts: 4,135member
    Look, I was in the market for the new 11 inch IPP to replace this ageing 10.5 inch IPP with a dying battery and a stagelight.  I was waiting for an M2 mini LED to give me the push. I only got the M2. Which tbh, given iPadOS constraints, not much of an upgrade. It makes me think this product cycle will be shorter than usual for the IPP. 

    So I have got an anti-nudge. I am now thinking I will wait, and if this thing dies I will settle for a cheaper IPad Air and thus regret it less when the real IPP update happens.

    How do you like that margin hit Tim Apple?
    williamlondon
  • Reply 48 of 53
    entropys said:
    Look, I was in the market for the new 11 inch IPP to replace this ageing 10.5 inch IPP with a dying battery and a stagelight.  I was waiting for an M2 mini LED to give me the push. I only got the M2. Which tbh, given iPadOS constraints, not much of an upgrade. It makes me think this product cycle will be shorter than usual for the IPP. 

    So I have got an anti-nudge. I am now thinking I will wait, and if this thing dies I will settle for a cheaper IPad Air and thus regret it less when the real IPP update happens.

    How do you like that margin hit Tim Apple?
    Margins are probably the same between the two products is not a little higher on the Air. The revenue would be different. 

    What you are missing is that Apple's approach is working. They have a product in their line up that meets your needs and you will buy it. They didn't think everyone needs a Pro. 
    thtwatto_cobra
  • Reply 49 of 53
    saareksaarek Posts: 1,520member
    tht said:
    Totally disagree with the takes in this article.

    I hear people saying the lack of Ethernet is bad on the $130 Apple TV. When I hear that, I immediately think those people are crazy. Crazy for not understanding what the mass market is, crazy for not being introspective of their desires versus the mass market. The mass market does not have Ethernet. They aren't going to wire their house with it. If their house or home has it, they won't use it. It's WiFi all the time. This Apple TV is a Christmas gift fare for the mass market. Perhaps Apple needs to cut it to $100, but at $130, it's a great price for what you get relative to other TV dongles.

    If you are buyer that wants Ethernet, you can get an Apple TV with it for $150. This used to be the price of the lower end Apple TV 4K. The new one is basically 50% to 100% more in everything: CPU, GPU, RAM and storage. And it is fanless to boot. That's a pretty good deal.

    I would recommend the $450 iPad 10th gen over the $330 iPad 9th gen. There is 1 GB more RAM, a 10% larger display, faster CPU, GPU, and RAM. It's simply a better machine, and it's worth $120 more. There is perhaps 2 reasons for getting the 9th gen model: a buyer doesn't want to spend $450 and buyer wants the home button. The former will be solved with time, the latter is one of those things that can't be solved and people will have to live with it.

    If people want better iPads, they spend more. Same as it always is. That ~11" iPad form factor now scales from $450 to $2100. The more the buyer is willing to pay, the more and better they get. From 10th gen to Air to Pro, the quality improves. The case gets thinner. The displays get better, the performance gets better, the stylus performance gets better. If you are just a news browser, iPad 10th gen is the way to go. You like to play games, step up to the Air. If the iPad is the primary computing device you plan on using for years, get the Pro or perhaps the 12.9".
    Yes, but you’re forgetting that iPad gets updated every year. It’s just that usually Apple doesn’t add an extra 35%+ for the update.

    You mention the upgrades that this new iPad offers, and you’re right, it is better.

    But guess what, the iPad 9 was better than the iPad 8. It doubled the base storage, the display supported True Tone, CPU went to A13, front camera was improved, etc. But the one upgrade the iPad 9 didn’t have was a bend over and take it price gouge!
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 50 of 53
    thttht Posts: 5,363member
    saarek said:
    tht said:
    Totally disagree with the takes in this article.

    I hear people saying the lack of Ethernet is bad on the $130 Apple TV. When I hear that, I immediately think those people are crazy. Crazy for not understanding what the mass market is, crazy for not being introspective of their desires versus the mass market. The mass market does not have Ethernet. They aren't going to wire their house with it. If their house or home has it, they won't use it. It's WiFi all the time. This Apple TV is a Christmas gift fare for the mass market. Perhaps Apple needs to cut it to $100, but at $130, it's a great price for what you get relative to other TV dongles.

    If you are buyer that wants Ethernet, you can get an Apple TV with it for $150. This used to be the price of the lower end Apple TV 4K. The new one is basically 50% to 100% more in everything: CPU, GPU, RAM and storage. And it is fanless to boot. That's a pretty good deal.

    I would recommend the $450 iPad 10th gen over the $330 iPad 9th gen. There is 1 GB more RAM, a 10% larger display, faster CPU, GPU, and RAM. It's simply a better machine, and it's worth $120 more. There is perhaps 2 reasons for getting the 9th gen model: a buyer doesn't want to spend $450 and buyer wants the home button. The former will be solved with time, the latter is one of those things that can't be solved and people will have to live with it.

    If people want better iPads, they spend more. Same as it always is. That ~11" iPad form factor now scales from $450 to $2100. The more the buyer is willing to pay, the more and better they get. From 10th gen to Air to Pro, the quality improves. The case gets thinner. The displays get better, the performance gets better, the stylus performance gets better. If you are just a news browser, iPad 10th gen is the way to go. You like to play games, step up to the Air. If the iPad is the primary computing device you plan on using for years, get the Pro or perhaps the 12.9".
    Yes, but you’re forgetting that iPad gets updated every year. It’s just that usually Apple doesn’t add an extra 35%+ for the update.

    You mention the upgrades that this new iPad offers, and you’re right, it is better.

    But guess what, the iPad 9 was better than the iPad 8. It doubled the base storage, the display supported True Tone, CPU went to A13, front camera was improved, etc. But the one upgrade the iPad 9 didn’t have was a bend over and take it price gouge!
    If they kept the same form factor as the iPad 9, with Touch ID home button and larger top and bottom bezels, and all they did was change the SoC and storage, I'd be more sympathetic, but they didn't.

    They changed the form factor. It's basically a de-featured iPad Air, which is itself a de-featured iPP11, but it is new to the low end iPad line. That really is an added value. Then, there were big improvements for users in terms of the screen size and the amount of RAM. Those two things are big quality of life improvements. RAM is probably the single largest thing that makes the lifecycle of a computer longer. Going from 3 to 4 GB means less apps killed, less browser tabs killed. The larger display is also a big improvement. I notice the difference between my iPP10.5 and my kid's iPP11. This is a bigger jump than that, and the footprint of the device didn't really change from the 9th gen to 10th.

    That's worth $120. Prior to this, to jump to the newer squared off, flat sides iPad form factor, it was a $270 jump to the iPA. It's now a lot less. You only recommend the iPad 9 if the person doesn't really care about the device and will only use it for browsing and playing time waster games. If a person wants better, does more than that? The iPad 10.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 51 of 53
    saareksaarek Posts: 1,520member
    tht said:
    saarek said:
    tht said:
    Totally disagree with the takes in this article.

    I hear people saying the lack of Ethernet is bad on the $130 Apple TV. When I hear that, I immediately think those people are crazy. Crazy for not understanding what the mass market is, crazy for not being introspective of their desires versus the mass market. The mass market does not have Ethernet. They aren't going to wire their house with it. If their house or home has it, they won't use it. It's WiFi all the time. This Apple TV is a Christmas gift fare for the mass market. Perhaps Apple needs to cut it to $100, but at $130, it's a great price for what you get relative to other TV dongles.

    If you are buyer that wants Ethernet, you can get an Apple TV with it for $150. This used to be the price of the lower end Apple TV 4K. The new one is basically 50% to 100% more in everything: CPU, GPU, RAM and storage. And it is fanless to boot. That's a pretty good deal.

    I would recommend the $450 iPad 10th gen over the $330 iPad 9th gen. There is 1 GB more RAM, a 10% larger display, faster CPU, GPU, and RAM. It's simply a better machine, and it's worth $120 more. There is perhaps 2 reasons for getting the 9th gen model: a buyer doesn't want to spend $450 and buyer wants the home button. The former will be solved with time, the latter is one of those things that can't be solved and people will have to live with it.

    If people want better iPads, they spend more. Same as it always is. That ~11" iPad form factor now scales from $450 to $2100. The more the buyer is willing to pay, the more and better they get. From 10th gen to Air to Pro, the quality improves. The case gets thinner. The displays get better, the performance gets better, the stylus performance gets better. If you are just a news browser, iPad 10th gen is the way to go. You like to play games, step up to the Air. If the iPad is the primary computing device you plan on using for years, get the Pro or perhaps the 12.9".
    Yes, but you’re forgetting that iPad gets updated every year. It’s just that usually Apple doesn’t add an extra 35%+ for the update.

    You mention the upgrades that this new iPad offers, and you’re right, it is better.

    But guess what, the iPad 9 was better than the iPad 8. It doubled the base storage, the display supported True Tone, CPU went to A13, front camera was improved, etc. But the one upgrade the iPad 9 didn’t have was a bend over and take it price gouge!
    If they kept the same form factor as the iPad 9, with Touch ID home button and larger top and bottom bezels, and all they did was change the SoC and storage, I'd be more sympathetic, but they didn't.

    They changed the form factor. It's basically a de-featured iPad Air, which is itself a de-featured iPP11, but it is new to the low end iPad line. That really is an added value. Then, there were big improvements for users in terms of the screen size and the amount of RAM. Those two things are big quality of life improvements. RAM is probably the single largest thing that makes the lifecycle of a computer longer. Going from 3 to 4 GB means less apps killed, less browser tabs killed. The larger display is also a big improvement. I notice the difference between my iPP10.5 and my kid's iPP11. This is a bigger jump than that, and the footprint of the device didn't really change from the 9th gen to 10th.

    That's worth $120. Prior to this, to jump to the newer squared off, flat sides iPad form factor, it was a $270 jump to the iPA. It's now a lot less. You only recommend the iPad 9 if the person doesn't really care about the device and will only use it for browsing and playing time waster games. If a person wants better, does more than that? The iPad 10.
    I suppose you and I will simply have to agree to disagree, and that is ok.

    Yes, the form factor has changed. But form factors do change over time. The A14 comes with 4GB of ram on every product it ships with. It would cost them more to go down to 3GB then to just keep it as it was, yes it is important, but it's not some magic gift from Apple.

    The screen is still just a LCD, yes, it is a nice LCD Screen, but apart from the extra size due to the small bezels (which is certainly a plus) it's basically the same screen specs.

    I don't know what a traditional Touch ID button costs vs the one they have now, but I doubt it's that much more.

    We can both agree that it's better than the iPad 9th generation, but let's recognise this move for what it is. This is Apple deciding that the standard iPad was just too good in terms of value and they needed to neuter that advantage so as to push people further up the chain. As you mentioned yourself, the gap in pricing is now so much less, people will start thinking "Well, I was prepared to spend $449. But for just $150 more I get a much better iPad". 

    The iPad Air was a tough sell before this greedy corporate move, you either went cheap or you went Pro. Now a lot of people are going to go for the Air.
    edited October 2022 muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 52 of 53
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,791member
    nubus said:
    mac_dog said:
    Oh, man. You sure took a lot of space to make your claim. I guess we’ll have to wait until apples next earnings call. 
    Apple isn't doing a full Nokia yet, but this is a terrible combination of greed and chaos.

    4K TV that would benefit from Wifi 6E is left without. iPad Pro 11 is still without mini-LED. 4K TV is stuck on Bluetooth 5.0. Pencil dongles is now a thing. The new MacBook Air M2 got 29% more expensive in Europe. With iPad 10th it seems to be +50%. 
    You dudes have been saying that for over 40 years now. Let that sink in. 

    As for the latest and greatest in wifi protocols, etc, meh. It will happen in time. Most people don’t have 6E yet so nobody is really sweating this. 
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