Jean-Louis Gassee doesn't know who an iPad is for, and thinks you don't either

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 58
    DAalseth said:
    darkvader said:
    JLG is right. 

    I mean, it's the perfect device for playing solitaire.  It's not good for much of anything else outside of a few niche applications like medical check-in stations.

    It's not a phone.  It's not a computer.  It's this weird thing that just isn't good for much, and it always has been.
    Says someone that obviously hasn’t touched one in a few years. 

    I do all of my art, painting, drawing, cartooning, writing, video editing on my iPad. I have a 2015 iMac, that I use to remote into a windows system, and not much else. And oh yeah, when I was on the road the iPad would do that as well. Just this week I got Affinity Publisher and now do all of my page layup on the iPad as well. That was one of the last things I needed a Mac for. With the new improved external monitor support I’m really thinking of ditching the Mac completely. 

    And yes it is the perfect device for playing solitaire, and all sorts of games, and reading, and movies, and interacting, and more. 

    Next time you want to criticize something, you might try having a clue about what you are talking. 

    You could not be more wrong.  I've got two within inches, a mini and a Pro.  The Pro essentially doesn't get used.  The screen size is awkward, smaller than a useful laptop screen size, but too big to comfortably hold.  The mini gets used more, mostly for solitaire, but sometimes to control my lights.

    Why do I have them at all?  Because 1. they were free and 2. I sometimes need to talk a client through settings.  I'm just glad I didn't have to buy them, because they wouldn't have been worth it.

    I can see the artist drawing pad use case, though I can't see how something like a Wacom Cintiq wouldn't be a better tool.  I can't see video editing being something that wouldn't be better done on a computer.  Writing on an iPad?  Ugh.

    And they're absolutely awful at web browsing since Firefox is crippled, my essential NoScript and uBlock extensions won't work.  Movies?  Um, I've got a nice 55" screen for that, and it's got a Mac Pro and surround sound system.  The thought of watching a movie on a 10" screen is just... ew.  And replacing my 7-screen 3-computer office desk with an iPad?  Insanity.  Pure insanity.
    williamlondon
  • Reply 42 of 58
    mac_dogmac_dog Posts: 1,021member
    Opinions are like assholes, so…
    dewmewatto_cobra
  • Reply 43 of 58
    darkvader said:
    JLG is right. 

    I mean, it's the perfect device for playing solitaire.  It's not good for much of anything else outside of a few niche applications like medical check-in stations.

    It's not a phone.  It's not a computer.  It's this weird thing that just isn't good for much, and it always has been.

    ——

    M. Gasée is wrong, as he has so dependably been the last 25 years or more.

    I use an iPad for sending this post (much better for my fingers than any phone keyboard, much more portable than a t laptop). I use it for reading books, for reading the news, for checking weather forecasts, for reading emails, for watching movies when I’m not around a bigger screen — or moving them to a bigger screen when I am.

    I can’t think of anything a smartphone does better than my iPad, and as I prefer a large screen for a desktop computer over a laptop, anytime I’m on the move, the iPad wins.

    You’re entitled to a different opinion — for yourself.


    watto_cobrajony0
  • Reply 44 of 58
    jingo said:

    Why do people like Gassee feel they need to proclaim in the way that they do? He is diminishing himself in my eyes (he is after all a flawed genius) by not appreciating that not everyone feels like he does, and some value their iPad very highly. Let them, please!

    ——

    My guess is that Gassée imagines himself to be a French public intellectual, a set of people for whom arrogance and above all an assumption of being totally correct about any subject at all are a way of life.

    watto_cobra
  • Reply 45 of 58
    Sounds like Gassee is still bitter that Apple didn't want to pay him $275 million for BeOS and opted to give Steve much more for NeXT instead.



    Considering that for $400M, Apple got not only NeXT, but Steve Jobs as well. The rest, including putting several dents in the world and running the price of Apple shares to previously unimaginable levels, is a history in which Gasée had no part part whatever.

    I tried out a couple of versions of BeOS when they were giving it away. Maybe it had great internals, I don’t know. The user experience was lackluster and the graphics were laughable.

    watto_cobra
  • Reply 46 of 58
    JLG is obviously not a pilot, as the iPad is now in every cockpit, personal and commercial. It has replaced tons of paper charts, makes filing flight plans a breeze, and performs other safety of flight functions too numerous to mention.
    sphericwatto_cobrajony0
  • Reply 47 of 58
    danoxdanox Posts: 1,491member
    darkvader said:
    JLG is right. 

    I mean, it's the perfect device for playing solitaire.  It's not good for much of anything else outside of a few niche applications like medical check-in stations.

    It's not a phone.  It's not a computer.  It's this weird thing that just isn't good for much, and it always has been.
    He’s wrong and that’s why BeOS is in the trash can of tech, by the way any of the past OS’s can be raised from the dead and be modernize to today’s hardware, BeOS, Amiga OS, SGI, Digital, Sun OS and WebOS, if Elon Musk can blow 44 billion dollars anything can be done, the biggest barrier is the lack of will, not money.

    There are many people worldwide who would be very interested in a new ecosystem based upon today’s hardware in combination with Arm SOC’s. Such a company would have to do both the hardware and a OS in house. In the future someone will try something again.
    edited November 2022 watto_cobra
  • Reply 48 of 58
    danoxdanox Posts: 1,491member
    dewme said:
    Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I would attribute some of the flattening of iPad demand to be the result of iPhones getting increasingly larger. When the iPad was first introduced the iPhone 4 and then 4s were diminutive compared to the first generation iPad. A Plus sized or Max sized iPhone can legitimately fill in as sub-mini or mini tablet in a pinch, and especially when equipped with plenty of storage. I have no problem reading an ebook or PDF on a Max size iPhone, whereas doing so on a iPhone 4/4s would be a constant source of eyestrain. 
    iPad’s still need better file management, it still is not as good as it should be, all pre 2000 desktop computers are still better. Or maybe it’s the flat U.I. Scheme? 
  • Reply 49 of 58
    danoxdanox Posts: 1,491member
    slurpy said:
    I don't understand why we put so much weight on these "ex-Apple" people, as if they have more insight, judgement and knowledge than the current people working at Apple? Typically these commentators either have an agenda (clicks, etc) or a bone to pick, or their powers of insight and vision are not as impressive as they think. 

    I trust Apple to make great decisions, and their long term vision, bc they have an amazingly fucking consistent track record of doing so. 
    Mac verse isn’t Windows, many people came to Mac’s from other hardware/OS systems long dead, Amiga, Sun, Digital, Next, SGI, BeOS, Acorn, Atari etc….trust Apple? Like my insurance company or throwing an elephant.
  • Reply 50 of 58
    I'm not sure most here have actually read Gassée's piece, honestly. At no point does he actually advocate turning the iPad into a Mac, and he seems generally to miss the simplicity of the iPad as originally envisioned.

    While I agree that iPadOS has failed to keep up with the astonishing hardware it's running on, I do think that the current iPad lineup is a bit mystifying. Each piece makes sense in isolation, but as a line of products, it's hard to ignore that there is one demonstrably cheap, old-fashioned option, one really expensive, "only for the serious user" option (the 12.9" Pro), one small one, and three that look almost identical but have a strange mix of missing/different features. It's in that middle ground, where most of the sales are, that I think things have gotten a bit muddled, largely because Apple is no longer content to let any iPad just be an iPad, and instead is designing all of the mass-market versions as "iPads that aspire to be laptops", with compromises in the design in that direction.

    The iPad reached its tablet ideal with the iPad 2 and the introduction of the Smart Cover in 2011. While some people obsessed about protecting the back of the iPad, I never thought that made much sense. I tried going with a back cover on the iPad mini 4, when Apple offered back covers to match the Smart Cover, but the added bulk and tackiness weren't worth it. Folding a Smart Cover on itself to create a ridge to curl your fingers around gave the best grip, and I could hold any iPad up to the 10.5" Pro that way for hours.

    With the advent of the 2018 Pros, though, the design with magnets along the spine for a Smart Cover gave way to the flat-sided design with magnets throughout the back of the device for the heavier Smart Folio, making for a device that became a bit uncomfortable to hold over time compared to earlier models (particularly with heavier 3rd party folios). The introduction of the Magic Keyboard in 2020 justified that direction for the Pro devices, but then the Air went the same direction for reasons that are still a bit confusing, even more-so now that they've put an M1 in the Air. Why is the Air, originally introduced as a narrower and lighter upgrade to the original form factor, now a cut-down Pro? Wouldn't it have made more sense to keep the Magic Keyboard as a Pro-only accessory for those that want their iPad to pull laptop duty on a regular basis?

    Now the 10th Gen iPad has been introduced with the same basic design as the Pro and Air, but with oddly-timed (landscape camera) and oddly-implemented (Smart Connector on the edge allowing for a cheaper, but not cheap, keyboard) changes that nonetheless leave us with a device that is very similar in-hand. While the Smart Connector positioning means that we could see the return of the Smart Cover, the magnets throughout the back of the chassis for the kickstand also encourage the continuation of the Smart Folio concept (and Apple's exorbitant $79US pricing, worse elsewhere) instead.

    I understand wanting to have a keyboard option for the "base" model, but $249 makes that a tough sell with a $449 device, and we've ended up with no iPad (bar the mini) that is, first and foremost, an iPad. That is, a tablet that you hold in your hands while relaxing in a comfortable chair, couch, or bed. The Air should really have the edge Smart Connector like the 10th gen, which would at least make the expensive keyboard make a bit more sense, since it could then be used on more than just the 10th Gen iPad. Introducing the landscape front camera on the Air would also have allowed a bit more margin for the engineering to solve the Apple Pencil 2 question instead of punting that and keeping the original Pencil around. With the edge Smart Connector, anyone wanting to use an iPad primarily as a tablet could get a Smart Cover instead of the heavier folio, and would have a choice between the 10th Gen and the Air.

    My own experience went like this: I'd had a 2018 11" Pro since summer 2019, when I bought it in spite of my dislike for the weight of folio cases. I used it for 2+ years before moving to an iPad mini 6 when they were released in late 2021, but after a year, I decided the mini was really too small for some of my use cases (I mostly read on my iPads, but a lot of that is PDFs of magazine-size books which are too small on the mini). I could almost have lived with the 10th Gen, but Pencil 1 was a killer, since I use the Pencil 2 extensively. I snagged an 11" Smart Folio for $20 (Apple's are the lightest, but ridiculous at full price), so I had my choice of 2018 Pro, 2020 Air, or 2022 Air. I tried the 2018 Pro first, but surprisingly found Face ID a bit irritating after a year of Touch ID on the mini - Face ID only unlocks the iPad, but you still have to swipe up to get to the Home Screen, whereas Touch ID goes there directly. I found that I actually liked Stage Manager for keeping two equal-sized windows side-by-side on the 11" (Split View won't do an equal split in portrait), and also like the display scaling on the Pro and M1 Air, so I ended up with a very-lightly-used 64GB M1 Air in the end, but it still feels like overkill for what I do with an iPad.
    dewmespheric
  • Reply 51 of 58
    dewmedewme Posts: 4,631member
    danox said:
    dewme said:
    Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I would attribute some of the flattening of iPad demand to be the result of iPhones getting increasingly larger. When the iPad was first introduced the iPhone 4 and then 4s were diminutive compared to the first generation iPad. A Plus sized or Max sized iPhone can legitimately fill in as sub-mini or mini tablet in a pinch, and especially when equipped with plenty of storage. I have no problem reading an ebook or PDF on a Max size iPhone, whereas doing so on a iPhone 4/4s would be a constant source of eyestrain. 
    iPad’s still need better file management, it still is not as good as it should be, all pre 2000 desktop computers are still better. Or maybe it’s the flat U.I. Scheme? 
    Absolutely. Apple's original vision for the iPad sought to hide a lot of the geekiness of desktop operating systems from the user. The thinking was probably along the lines of “Why should I care where my Notes files are stored when they are always there at my fingertips?” For the most part I agree with the approach Apple chose. 

    It’s only when and where Apple’s vision breaks the confines I’d their original “assumption space” for the product do the “problems” arrive. This is true for all products that are modifiable and evolve in directions that the original visionaries never anticipated. Imagine what the original designers of a full sized American pickup truck would think of today’s versions with their super luxurious cabs and teeny tiny beds and railroad locomotive sized grill. They’d be appalled, just as much as buyers of today’s pickups would be appalled having to stuff themselves and their chubby kids into a single bench seat in front of a full sized 8-foot bed that can carry standard length lumber and sheet material and be accessed without a ladder.

    As far as iPad evolution is concerned, I’m totally cool with Apple not falling into the lazy trap of turning the iPad into simply another form factor of the Mac, like Microsoft has done with the Surface. For all of the whining I see about the iPad software being insufficient for its hardware, I’ve yet to see an example of what the software would look and work like that don’t regress to “just make it work like it does on the Mac.” I’m holding out hope that Apple looks forward and finds a new and better direction for what an operating system and user experience should deliver on a tablet device without looking backward to legacy ways of doing things on devices that weren’t iPads. 

    Frankly, as an iPhone, iPad, and Mac user I find it sad that so many people use shitty Microsoft PCs at home only because that’s what they use or used at work and they can’t imagine that using a computer can be a much better experience than what they’ve settled on because they lack the curiosity and desire for discovering a better way. I’m okay with the cheese being moved, especially when it’s to a better place. 

    The iPad, which I’ve thoroughly enjoyed since the very first version, is a better way forward for a huge user base. I do have to laugh every time I hear someone portray the iPad as a computing device for dummies, like only “real men” have the intellectual fortitude and mechanical dexterity to use a traditional computer. Sure, and I suppose those same real men are riding a horse to work every day and feeding their families on venison that they hunt and kill using only a bow and arrow. Traditional computers, and especially Microsoft ones, are industrial machinery designed for use by trained industrial workers. We need to move beyond the industrial age of computing to human-centric computing and the iPad and iPhone are one small step in that direction. I’m willing to wait and see how Apple takes us to the next step in that direction.
    edited November 2022 watto_cobra
  • Reply 52 of 58
    Jean-Louis Who?

    Never ask OTH Boomers to explain technology or software advancements.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 53 of 58
    1348513485 Posts: 250member
    xiao-zhi said:
    Jean-Louis Who?

    Never ask OTH Boomers to explain technology or software advancements.
    Never ask someone born in the 21st century about how [whatever] came to exist. Clueless.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 54 of 58
    mattinozmattinoz Posts: 1,976member
    rnb2 said:
    ....

    While I agree that iPadOS has failed to keep up with the astonishing hardware it's running on, I do think that the current iPad lineup is a bit mystifying. Each piece makes sense in isolation, but as a line of products, it's hard to ignore that there is one demonstrably cheap, old-fashioned option, one really expensive, "only for the serious user" option (the 12.9" Pro), one small one, and three that look almost identical but have a strange mix of missing/different features. It's in that middle ground, where most of the sales are, that I think things have gotten a bit muddled, largely because Apple is no longer content to let any iPad just be an iPad, and instead is designing all of the mass-market versions as "iPads that aspire to be laptops", with compromises in the design in that direction.

    ...
    I think this really nails the problem. Well that and maybe the cheap one could be cheaper to better target kiosk use. 
    The edge iPads make a bucket load of sense in their own right. The mini is the go to device for General Aviation and other fields that have been noted. Both Pros I know are making big gains in construction and other hands-on industry. 

    The middle seems messy and crowded like various generations of pro have just been rehoused to look new.  The Air seems like a de-pro last gen pro and the iPad 10th feels like a de-aired iPad Air to the point it is pretty much a iPadPro second gen in a squarer case. 

    To me what really makes the family both current and past messy is the accessory game as well. 
    Starting with the inconsistently placed smartconnector that is so smart it only handles one accessory (keyboard cases by apple) even thought the patents suggest it can chain devices. Strikes me the Apple Pencil could be a consistent offer against the range if it used the smart connector. Apple could have a consistent side smart connector on all devices then have a second one maybe new higher capacity 5/6pin one on the upper spec devices but above all else be consistent where they are on the device. More so open it up to other accessory makers. 

    Sure software can should and probably will be better - that is true of every device which is why updates over time was a massive selling point. 
    Will it ever be fast enough for me no but a lot of people find the pace good enough for them. 

    None of these things make the device functional unclear for what on sale - what seems unclear is the future direction and it doesn't seem like it learns from the products either side of it iPhone - MacBook 
    dewmernb2watto_cobra
  • Reply 55 of 58
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,266member
    dewme said:
    danox said:
    dewme said:
    Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I would attribute some of the flattening of iPad demand to be the result of iPhones getting increasingly larger. When the iPad was first introduced the iPhone 4 and then 4s were diminutive compared to the first generation iPad. A Plus sized or Max sized iPhone can legitimately fill in as sub-mini or mini tablet in a pinch, and especially when equipped with plenty of storage. I have no problem reading an ebook or PDF on a Max size iPhone, whereas doing so on a iPhone 4/4s would be a constant source of eyestrain. 
    iPad’s still need better file management, it still is not as good as it should be, all pre 2000 desktop computers are still better. Or maybe it’s the flat U.I. Scheme? 
    As far as iPad evolution is concerned, I’m totally cool with Apple not falling into the lazy trap of turning the iPad into simply another form factor of the Mac, like Microsoft has done with the Surface. For all of the whining I see about the iPad software being insufficient for its hardware, I’ve yet to see an example of what the software would look and work like that don’t regress to “just make it work like it does on the Mac.” I’m holding out hope that Apple looks forward and finds a new and better direction for what an operating system and user experience should deliver on a tablet device without looking backward to legacy ways of doing things on devices that weren’t iPads. 
    IMO, Apple did worse than MS by making the iPad Pro a limited Surface Pro.  The multitasking and external monitor support is limited, mobile apps forced in desktop mode and bad file management are some examples of a bad experience you have trying to use an iPad as a laptop.  MS did the right thing by not limiting what the Surface Pro can do when you attach a keyboard.
    Frankly, as an iPhone, iPad, and Mac user I find it sad that so many people use shitty Microsoft PCs at home only because that’s what they use or used at work and they can’t imagine that using a computer can be a much better experience than what they’ve settled on because they lack the curiosity and desire for discovering a better way. I’m okay with the cheese being moved, especially when it’s to a better place. 
    I also have and iPhone, iPad and Macs, and I can understand why many people want Microsoft PC's at home.  Better gaming experience, more apps than macOS and devices at a lower cost.  And if you use MS Office, the Windows version is the better one.  At the same time, I understand why others prefer macOS / Apple devices.  I use Windows and macOS in a daily basis and it's easy to see that both are very good and stable.  
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 56 of 58
    sphericspheric Posts: 2,278member
    danvm said:
    dewme said:
    danox said:
    dewme said:
    Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I would attribute some of the flattening of iPad demand to be the result of iPhones getting increasingly larger. When the iPad was first introduced the iPhone 4 and then 4s were diminutive compared to the first generation iPad. A Plus sized or Max sized iPhone can legitimately fill in as sub-mini or mini tablet in a pinch, and especially when equipped with plenty of storage. I have no problem reading an ebook or PDF on a Max size iPhone, whereas doing so on a iPhone 4/4s would be a constant source of eyestrain. 
    iPad’s still need better file management, it still is not as good as it should be, all pre 2000 desktop computers are still better. Or maybe it’s the flat U.I. Scheme? 
    As far as iPad evolution is concerned, I’m totally cool with Apple not falling into the lazy trap of turning the iPad into simply another form factor of the Mac, like Microsoft has done with the Surface. For all of the whining I see about the iPad software being insufficient for its hardware, I’ve yet to see an example of what the software would look and work like that don’t regress to “just make it work like it does on the Mac.” I’m holding out hope that Apple looks forward and finds a new and better direction for what an operating system and user experience should deliver on a tablet device without looking backward to legacy ways of doing things on devices that weren’t iPads. 
    IMO, Apple did worse than MS by making the iPad Pro a limited Surface Pro.  The multitasking and external monitor support is limited, mobile apps forced in desktop mode and bad file management are some examples of a bad experience you have trying to use an iPad as a laptop.  MS did the right thing by not limiting what the Surface Pro can do when you attach a keyboard.
    Apple's in a weird spot, because the whole point of iPad was to eliminate the complexity of traditional computers, creating a safe and powerful "home computer" for ordinary people (specifically NOT the cousin who keeps getting asked by his relatives to take a look at/set up their computer). Back to what the Mac was intended to be initially, relatively speaking. 

    So adding all this extra stuff — multiple monitors, multitasking interface, file management — comes at the price of adding back that complexity.
    It needs to be done in a manner that remains invisible to the user who has no desire to go deep, but is still discoverable for those that do. 
    That's a super hard tightrope walk. 

    Since you mention it: file management on iPad has improved by leaps and bounds in the past few years, and I really hate it when mobile apps designed for smartphones are blown up to 10 inches, giving you both an annoyingly huge interface and annoyingly little content. 

    I have a 10" screen. Give me desktop content! (But make sure it doesn't have mouseover menus and other crap like that.)
    rnb2
  • Reply 57 of 58
    thttht Posts: 4,709member
    The media asks this weird "who's this product for" question a lot. It's part of their review playbook or method for understanding a product. As soon as you read someone say that, you should stop reading. I don't think I've ever read a good answer to that question from a reviewer or perhaps from anyone. It's like nails on a chalkboard to me now.

    Apple's iPad product spans $330 to $2400. That spread is for a wide range of potential buyers from who just want a news reader or web browsing machine, a kids machine, a kiosk machine, to professionals doing content creation, webwork, and engineering. Just on price alone, the vast majority are going to people just doing basic compute functions like news, web browsing and games. Then, they offer upsell machines to those who want more. More performance, more memory, more storage, more display, for the people who want it. I frankly don't understand why people are confused about the lineup. It's about the most ordered as it has ever been.

    Why aren't there more iPads sold? Like say 100m iPads a year versus about the ~50m today? Well, Apple makes products and prices them in a way that is most advantageous for them. Often times, that means not selling a lot of units. They can sell a lot of iPads by selling a $200 iPad at zero margin, developing a bunch of educational software, and compete with Chromebooks. That would be what 20m units per year? But they aren't going to do that.

    Why hasn't Apple added more PC functionality to iPads? I think they still hew to the original vision of the iPad as a product that is in-between a Mac and an iPhone. They don't want the product lines to overlap. Is there any reason why Apple doesn't offer the phone app to iPads? Still weird that they haven't offered cellular on Macs. Not much reason not to have Terminal, FCP or LPX or Xcode on iPads now. Lots of software work, both on the OS side and app side, to make it happen, but all doable. It's all product marketing decisions.
    rnb2
  • Reply 58 of 58
    JLG is obviously not a pilot, as the iPad is now in every cockpit, personal and commercial. It has replaced tons of paper charts, makes filing flight plans a breeze, and performs other safety of flight functions too numerous to mention.
    Thanks for confirming what I was thinking earlier, that it has been accepted as a *replacement* for paper charts on aircraft.  I didn’t want to say so without being sure.  
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