After years of work, Microsoft is still trying to make its own Apple Silicon-like chip

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 37
    hydrogenhydrogen Posts: 314member
    Some companies are leaders, others are desperate "me-too" followers. It says a lot about the quality of their management .....
    edited May 2023 watto_cobra
  • Reply 22 of 37
    xbitxbit Posts: 391member
    The thing that everyone seems to forget is that Microsoft paid billions for a company with deep ARM experience. What ever happened to all of those Nokia hardware engineers?
    FileMakerFellerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 23 of 37
    hexclockhexclock Posts: 1,287member
    sdw2001 said:
    hexclock said:
    blastdoor said:
    It's such a huge indictment of multiple Intel management failures over the past 10-20 years that MS has to do this at all. 

    For reasons of national security, I think it's necessary to try and save Intel. But I think "we" (meaning, I guess, American citizens and policy makers) need to think long and hard about how to try and reduce the chances of something like this from happening again. Intel was a national treasure and these a-holes absolutely plundered it and put their country at risk. I know there are some financial institutions that have been designated as being too important to the financial system to fail, meaning they both get extra protection but also extra oversight/regulation. Maybe we need a similar national security designation for companies that are vitally important to our long term national security to also receive some extra protection but also oversight. 
    It is overstretching things without any concrete facts. Will you eve stop this kind of hate mongering, fear mongering? 
    What the hell are you even talking about? America can and should make as many things ourselves as possible. If self reliance equals hate, then I guess I’m a hater too. 
    I don’t know that I agree about Intel being a key component of national security, but hexclock’s  response was so insane I just assumed it was facetious. 
    He must be a Putin sympathizer. Russia does not make a lot of things. 
    Yes that must be it. There is no other possible explanation why I would like to see America build more chips. What an utter buffoon you are. 
    sphericwatto_cobra
  • Reply 24 of 37
    hexclockhexclock Posts: 1,287member
    JP234 said:
    sdw2001 said:
    hexclock said:
    blastdoor said:
    It's such a huge indictment of multiple Intel management failures over the past 10-20 years that MS has to do this at all. 

    For reasons of national security, I think it's necessary to try and save Intel. But I think "we" (meaning, I guess, American citizens and policy makers) need to think long and hard about how to try and reduce the chances of something like this from happening again. Intel was a national treasure and these a-holes absolutely plundered it and put their country at risk. I know there are some financial institutions that have been designated as being too important to the financial system to fail, meaning they both get extra protection but also extra oversight/regulation. Maybe we need a similar national security designation for companies that are vitally important to our long term national security to also receive some extra protection but also oversight. 
    It is overstretching things without any concrete facts. Will you eve stop this kind of hate mongering, fear mongering? 
    What the hell are you even talking about? America can and should make as many things ourselves as possible. If self reliance equals hate, then I guess I’m a hater too. 
    I don’t know that I agree about Intel being a key component of national security, but hexclock’s  response was so insane I just assumed it was facetious. 
    hexclock said:
    blastdoor said:
    It's such a huge indictment of multiple Intel management failures over the past 10-20 years that MS has to do this at all. 

    For reasons of national security, I think it's necessary to try and save Intel. But I think "we" (meaning, I guess, American citizens and policy makers) need to think long and hard about how to try and reduce the chances of something like this from happening again. Intel was a national treasure and these a-holes absolutely plundered it and put their country at risk. I know there are some financial institutions that have been designated as being too important to the financial system to fail, meaning they both get extra protection but also extra oversight/regulation. Maybe we need a similar national security designation for companies that are vitally important to our long term national security to also receive some extra protection but also oversight. 
    It is overstretching things without any concrete facts. Will you eve stop this kind of hate mongering, fear mongering? 
    What the hell are you even talking about? America can and should make as many things ourselves as possible. If self reliance equals hate, then I guess I’m a hater too. 
    I wouldn't call you a hater. I'd call you a nationalist. That's neither complimentary or disparaging to me.
    At least you didn’t call me a Putin supporter for daring to suggest that we make more stuff stateside. 
    JP234watto_cobra
  • Reply 25 of 37
    blastdoorblastdoor Posts: 3,426member
    hexclock said:
    sdw2001 said:
    hexclock said:
    blastdoor said:
    It's such a huge indictment of multiple Intel management failures over the past 10-20 years that MS has to do this at all. 

    For reasons of national security, I think it's necessary to try and save Intel. But I think "we" (meaning, I guess, American citizens and policy makers) need to think long and hard about how to try and reduce the chances of something like this from happening again. Intel was a national treasure and these a-holes absolutely plundered it and put their country at risk. I know there are some financial institutions that have been designated as being too important to the financial system to fail, meaning they both get extra protection but also extra oversight/regulation. Maybe we need a similar national security designation for companies that are vitally important to our long term national security to also receive some extra protection but also oversight. 
    It is overstretching things without any concrete facts. Will you eve stop this kind of hate mongering, fear mongering? 
    What the hell are you even talking about? America can and should make as many things ourselves as possible. If self reliance equals hate, then I guess I’m a hater too. 
    I don’t know that I agree about Intel being a key component of national security, but hexclock’s  response was so insane I just assumed it was facetious. 
    He must be a Putin sympathizer. Russia does not make a lot of things. 
    Yes that must be it. There is no other possible explanation why I would like to see America build more chips. What an utter buffoon you are. 
    Indeed — it’s because I view Putin and his “limitless” friend as major threats to democracy, peace, and prosperity that I want to make sure that democratic countries collectively avoid dependencies on Putin and limitless friend. 

    And chip manufacturing is vital to national  security. 
    tmaywatto_cobra
  • Reply 26 of 37
    jdwjdw Posts: 1,387member
    Apparently, the MS Surface Pro 9 5G is about the fastest Windows on ARM machine out there, but only you exclude Macs.  Now that Parallels 18 is out, you can run Windows 11 on ARM natively on an M1 or M2 Max, which I assume must blow away Microsoft's SQ3 processor, based on it not being as fast as the Intel chips it replaces, at least according to what I am reading here...

    https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/microsoft-surface-pro-9-sq3-arm

    That article says the SQ3 is based on the  Qualcomm Snapdragon 8cx Gen 3.
    williamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 27 of 37
    danoxdanox Posts: 3,098member
    hexclock said:
    blastdoor said:
    It's such a huge indictment of multiple Intel management failures over the past 10-20 years that MS has to do this at all. 

    For reasons of national security, I think it's necessary to try and save Intel. But I think "we" (meaning, I guess, American citizens and policy makers) need to think long and hard about how to try and reduce the chances of something like this from happening again. Intel was a national treasure and these a-holes absolutely plundered it and put their country at risk. I know there are some financial institutions that have been designated as being too important to the financial system to fail, meaning they both get extra protection but also extra oversight/regulation. Maybe we need a similar national security designation for companies that are vitally important to our long term national security to also receive some extra protection but also oversight. 
    It is overstretching things without any concrete facts. Will you eve stop this kind of hate mongering, fear mongering? 
    What the hell are you even talking about? America can and should make as many things ourselves as possible. If self reliance equals hate, then I guess I’m a hater too. 

    Too late for that cultural barriers all over the place in America, the level of cooperation between management and the production workers that happens in Germany, Japan, or South Korea it’s not gonna happen in United States out of thin air, the only solution most American companies are going to take is go to Mexico or Vietnam.
    JP234watto_cobra
  • Reply 28 of 37
    waveparticlewaveparticle Posts: 1,497member
    hexclock said:
    blastdoor said:
    It's such a huge indictment of multiple Intel management failures over the past 10-20 years that MS has to do this at all. 

    For reasons of national security, I think it's necessary to try and save Intel. But I think "we" (meaning, I guess, American citizens and policy makers) need to think long and hard about how to try and reduce the chances of something like this from happening again. Intel was a national treasure and these a-holes absolutely plundered it and put their country at risk. I know there are some financial institutions that have been designated as being too important to the financial system to fail, meaning they both get extra protection but also extra oversight/regulation. Maybe we need a similar national security designation for companies that are vitally important to our long term national security to also receive some extra protection but also oversight. 
    It is overstretching things without any concrete facts. Will you eve stop this kind of hate mongering, fear mongering? 
    What the hell are you even talking about? America can and should make as many things ourselves as possible. If self reliance equals hate, then I guess I’m a hater too. 
    Yes, this is hate. And selfish too. America is the most rich and powerful nation in the world. And you still whine, complain. What is the matter with you? 
    williamlondon
  • Reply 29 of 37
    techconctechconc Posts: 275member
    No sarcasm. Designing chips is easy. It’s just an economics problem rather than a technical one. Chip design is a commodity skill set with a low skill ceiling compared to developing a bleeding-edge node.

    Notice that M2’s performance gain from M1 is exactly the same percent as TSMC’s transistor density increase. It’s all fab process. Design has little to do with it.
    Designing simple chips can be considered straight forward.  Optimizing chip performance is not a commodity skill.  As for the M2, yes, that's just a minor iterative bump of the same overall design.  Now try comparing Samsung and Qualcomm's attempts on the same manufacturing process.  Samsung found the hard way that optimizing for performance and efficiency isn't quite so easy.   Also, having worked for a semiconductor, I can say with authority that your attempt to trivialize the skill needed for optimal chip design is simply inaccurate.  
    muthuk_vanalingamtmayFileMakerFellerjony0watto_cobra
  • Reply 30 of 37
    danoxdanox Posts: 3,098member
    blastdoor said:
    hexclock said:
    sdw2001 said:
    hexclock said:
    blastdoor said:
    It's such a huge indictment of multiple Intel management failures over the past 10-20 years that MS has to do this at all. 

    For reasons of national security, I think it's necessary to try and save Intel. But I think "we" (meaning, I guess, American citizens and policy makers) need to think long and hard about how to try and reduce the chances of something like this from happening again. Intel was a national treasure and these a-holes absolutely plundered it and put their country at risk. I know there are some financial institutions that have been designated as being too important to the financial system to fail, meaning they both get extra protection but also extra oversight/regulation. Maybe we need a similar national security designation for companies that are vitally important to our long term national security to also receive some extra protection but also oversight. 
    It is overstretching things without any concrete facts. Will you eve stop this kind of hate mongering, fear mongering? 
    What the hell are you even talking about? America can and should make as many things ourselves as possible. If self reliance equals hate, then I guess I’m a hater too. 
    I don’t know that I agree about Intel being a key component of national security, but hexclock’s  response was so insane I just assumed it was facetious. 
    He must be a Putin sympathizer. Russia does not make a lot of things. 
    Yes that must be it. There is no other possible explanation why I would like to see America build more chips. What an utter buffoon you are. 
    Indeed — it’s because I view Putin and his “limitless” friend as major threats to democracy, peace, and prosperity that I want to make sure that democratic countries collectively avoid dependencies on Putin and limitless friend. 

    And chip manufacturing is vital to national  security. 

    It’s too late, the clock started a ticking when Nixon and Kissinger went to China 50 years ago. And after the opening all those American CEOs moved production to China, and even when they move out of China, the only thing they want do is want to do is move to  Mexico, Vietnam, India, or some other Third World hellhole. The problem in America is the Man in the mirror management and a culture that seeks the slave wage as a first response.

    The massively big companies worldwide (Intel, Apple, Google, Samsung, VW) don’t need help or government welfare they are winning at the world wide level, and at the end of the day they will do fine.
    JP234FileMakerFellerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 31 of 37
    waveparticlewaveparticle Posts: 1,497member
    danox said:
    blastdoor said:
    hexclock said:
    sdw2001 said:
    hexclock said:
    blastdoor said:
    It's such a huge indictment of multiple Intel management failures over the past 10-20 years that MS has to do this at all. 

    For reasons of national security, I think it's necessary to try and save Intel. But I think "we" (meaning, I guess, American citizens and policy makers) need to think long and hard about how to try and reduce the chances of something like this from happening again. Intel was a national treasure and these a-holes absolutely plundered it and put their country at risk. I know there are some financial institutions that have been designated as being too important to the financial system to fail, meaning they both get extra protection but also extra oversight/regulation. Maybe we need a similar national security designation for companies that are vitally important to our long term national security to also receive some extra protection but also oversight. 
    It is overstretching things without any concrete facts. Will you eve stop this kind of hate mongering, fear mongering? 
    What the hell are you even talking about? America can and should make as many things ourselves as possible. If self reliance equals hate, then I guess I’m a hater too. 
    I don’t know that I agree about Intel being a key component of national security, but hexclock’s  response was so insane I just assumed it was facetious. 
    He must be a Putin sympathizer. Russia does not make a lot of things. 
    Yes that must be it. There is no other possible explanation why I would like to see America build more chips. What an utter buffoon you are. 
    Indeed — it’s because I view Putin and his “limitless” friend as major threats to democracy, peace, and prosperity that I want to make sure that democratic countries collectively avoid dependencies on Putin and limitless friend. 

    And chip manufacturing is vital to national  security. 

    It’s too late, the clock started a ticking when Nixon and Kissinger went to China 50 years ago. And after the opening all those American CEOs moved production to China, and even when they move out of China, the only thing they want do is want to do is move to  Mexico, Vietnam, India, or some other Third World hellhole. The problem in America is the Man in the mirror management and a culture that seeks the slave wage as a first response.

    The massively big companies worldwide (Intel, Apple, Google, Samsung, VW) don’t need help or government welfare they are winning at the world wide level, and at the end of the day they will do fine.
    It is an illusion. Read the comments under this article. You will see the realities.

    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/indias-first-iphone-maker-quitting-084000552.html
  • Reply 32 of 37
    techconc said:
    I hope that was meant as sarcasm because you have that exactly backwards.  The value of Apple’s chips comes from their custom design far more than the manufacturing process they are on.  With enough money, anyone can contract and negotiate to manufacture on the best process.
    No sarcasm. Designing chips is easy. It’s just an economics problem rather than a technical one. Chip design is a commodity skill set with a low skill ceiling compared to developing a bleeding-edge node.

    Notice that M2’s performance gain from M1 is exactly the same percent as TSMC’s transistor density increase. It’s all fab process. Design has little to do with it.

    I view both sides as equally difficult and important.  It’s hard to come up with a process that can further miniaturize a chip, but equally so is generating an algorithm that is solved by a circuit.  A given algorithm could perform poorly no matter how good the node process is (in either efficiency or power).  A solution that uses 50 transistors to solve a problem would be better than one that uses 100 to do the same thing.

    Both sides actually have the same problem: design.  It takes time, effort, intelligence, talent to do both.
    muthuk_vanalingamFileMakerFellerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 33 of 37
    KTRKTR Posts: 280member
    My feeling is.  Even if ms finds a way to get a really good working soc. How is this gonna affect their partners?  How are they gonna make all those old x86 programs work.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 34 of 37
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,449member
    KTR said:
    My feeling is.  Even if ms finds a way to get a really good working soc. How is this gonna affect their partners?  How are they gonna make all those old x86 programs work.
    x86 emulation
    How x86 and Arm32 emulation work on Arm | Microsoft Learn
  • Reply 35 of 37
    danoxdanox Posts: 3,098member
    JP234 said:
    danox said:
    blastdoor said:
    hexclock said:
    sdw2001 said:
    hexclock said:
    blastdoor said:
    It's such a huge indictment of multiple Intel management failures over the past 10-20 years that MS has to do this at all. 

    For reasons of national security, I think it's necessary to try and save Intel. But I think "we" (meaning, I guess, American citizens and policy makers) need to think long and hard about how to try and reduce the chances of something like this from happening again. Intel was a national treasure and these a-holes absolutely plundered it and put their country at risk. I know there are some financial institutions that have been designated as being too important to the financial system to fail, meaning they both get extra protection but also extra oversight/regulation. Maybe we need a similar national security designation for companies that are vitally important to our long term national security to also receive some extra protection but also oversight. 
    It is overstretching things without any concrete facts. Will you eve stop this kind of hate mongering, fear mongering? 
    What the hell are you even talking about? America can and should make as many things ourselves as possible. If self reliance equals hate, then I guess I’m a hater too. 
    I don’t know that I agree about Intel being a key component of national security, but hexclock’s  response was so insane I just assumed it was facetious. 
    He must be a Putin sympathizer. Russia does not make a lot of things. 
    Yes that must be it. There is no other possible explanation why I would like to see America build more chips. What an utter buffoon you are. 
    Indeed — it’s because I view Putin and his “limitless” friend as major threats to democracy, peace, and prosperity that I want to make sure that democratic countries collectively avoid dependencies on Putin and limitless friend. 

    And chip manufacturing is vital to national  security. 

    It’s too late, the clock started a ticking when Nixon and Kissinger went to China 50 years ago. And after the opening all those American CEOs moved production to China, and even when they move out of China, the only thing they want do is want to do is move to  Mexico, Vietnam, India, or some other Third World hellhole. The problem in America is the Man in the mirror management and a culture that seeks the slave wage as a first response.

    The massively big companies worldwide (Intel, Apple, Google, Samsung, VW) don’t need help or government welfare they are winning at the world wide level, and at the end of the day they will do fine.
    I agree with you. And to those who disagree that globalism lifts all boats, I'd ask, "Was your family better off when Nixon opened up China in 1972?" I was 21. My parents had 3 of my younger sibs living at home, one 10 year old black and white TV, a 1965 Chevy station wagon and ate out or went to the movies never. My father's only electronic toy was his AM/FM Sony transistor radio (made in Japan). I had just finished my tour of duty in the Air Force and didn't have a pot to piss in or a window to toss it out of, a high school diploma, and a Tylenol #3 addiction. Today, my wife and I have a mortgage-free house, two European luxury cars paid for in cash, two smart TV's, and multiples of virtually every piece of hardware Apple makes. We had a 5 week vacation in France 5 years ago, two weeks in Tuscany in 2021, and 3 weeks in Greece last summer. And are more than comfortable in our retirement. It was prudent investing in those very companies that moved manufacturing operations to China that made that happen. All of it.

    If you failed to prosper from 1972 to today, guess what? It's not the fault of minorities, immigrants, government policies or foreign manufacturing, or "woke" agendas. It's your failure, and you should own it, rather than embracing the lies that tell you what you want to hear, rather than the truths you don't. Then get off your couch and do something. Or learn to do something then do something. There are over 80,000 unfilled jobs in the American trades, and no one is outsourcing automotive, plumbing, carpentry, electrical, masonry or ironwork jobs to China. Apprenticeships are short, paid, and usually lead to well paying jobs. Our master plumber makes more than our primary physician.

    So what are you waiting for? Go on, put on some pants and shoes and contribute. You'll soon be living the American Dream, guaranteed.

    I recently retired from fire protection design, and there are also similar positions in HVAC, plumbing, and electrical. There are many jobs working in the field and in the front office as a detailer, or designer in these four disciplines, that go begging for people to fill positions them, many of the field positions are unionized and offer apprenticeship programs through the Union, that last 2 to 3 years, those apprenticeships can lead to a very well paying job that can lead to many good things if you’re willing to work hard, and in the front office area, detailers and designers positions are available, right out of high school or junior college, if you know how to use AutoCad, Revit, Bluebeam, Adobe Acrobat, and Navis manage, companies, in those four disciplines will pay and teach you on the job all you need to know to be a designer or detailer. 

    Because most schools in America don’t teach these disciplines, next time you walk into a building look up, you’ll see fire sprinklers at the ceiling, someone has to design and layout those locations, Fire sprinkler design is a very lucrative field, but it’s not taught in schools, but if you know any young kid, who knows how to use those programs and are willing to work, they can get a job in a very lucrative field that most don’t know about, and since most companies are always looking for people, they are willing to teach you how on the job. 

    Also, if your company offers a 401(k), always maximize your contributions to it and keep up with it, if you don’t, no one else will, I can only speak for fire protection, but most companies offer great benefits, so if you know any young kid that knows how to use those programs (particularly AutoCad and Revit), and they’re looking for something, there are many fire protection, companies looking.
    edited May 2023 JP234FileMakerFellerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 36 of 37
    waveparticlewaveparticle Posts: 1,497member
    JP234 said:
    danox said:
    JP234 said:
    danox said:
    blastdoor said:
    hexclock said:
    sdw2001 said:
    hexclock said:
    blastdoor said:
    It's such a huge indictment of multiple Intel management failures over the past 10-20 years that MS has to do this at all. 

    For reasons of national security, I think it's necessary to try and save Intel. But I think "we" (meaning, I guess, American citizens and policy makers) need to think long and hard about how to try and reduce the chances of something like this from happening again. Intel was a national treasure and these a-holes absolutely plundered it and put their country at risk. I know there are some financial institutions that have been designated as being too important to the financial system to fail, meaning they both get extra protection but also extra oversight/regulation. Maybe we need a similar national security designation for companies that are vitally important to our long term national security to also receive some extra protection but also oversight. 
    It is overstretching things without any concrete facts. Will you eve stop this kind of hate mongering, fear mongering? 
    What the hell are you even talking about? America can and should make as many things ourselves as possible. If self reliance equals hate, then I guess I’m a hater too. 
    I don’t know that I agree about Intel being a key component of national security, but hexclock’s  response was so insane I just assumed it was facetious. 
    He must be a Putin sympathizer. Russia does not make a lot of things. 
    Yes that must be it. There is no other possible explanation why I would like to see America build more chips. What an utter buffoon you are. 
    Indeed — it’s because I view Putin and his “limitless” friend as major threats to democracy, peace, and prosperity that I want to make sure that democratic countries collectively avoid dependencies on Putin and limitless friend. 

    And chip manufacturing is vital to national  security. 

    It’s too late, the clock started a ticking when Nixon and Kissinger went to China 50 years ago. And after the opening all those American CEOs moved production to China, and even when they move out of China, the only thing they want do is want to do is move to  Mexico, Vietnam, India, or some other Third World hellhole. The problem in America is the Man in the mirror management and a culture that seeks the slave wage as a first response.

    The massively big companies worldwide (Intel, Apple, Google, Samsung, VW) don’t need help or government welfare they are winning at the world wide level, and at the end of the day they will do fine.
    I agree with you. And to those who disagree that globalism lifts all boats, I'd ask, "Was your family better off when Nixon opened up China in 1972?" I was 21. My parents had 3 of my younger sibs living at home, one 10 year old black and white TV, a 1965 Chevy station wagon and ate out or went to the movies never. My father's only electronic toy was his AM/FM Sony transistor radio (made in Japan). I had just finished my tour of duty in the Air Force and didn't have a pot to piss in or a window to toss it out of, a high school diploma, and a Tylenol #3 addiction. Today, my wife and I have a mortgage-free house, two European luxury cars paid for in cash, two smart TV's, and multiples of virtually every piece of hardware Apple makes. We had a 5 week vacation in France 5 years ago, two weeks in Tuscany in 2021, and 3 weeks in Greece last summer. And are more than comfortable in our retirement. It was prudent investing in those very companies that moved manufacturing operations to China that made that happen. All of it.

    If you failed to prosper from 1972 to today, guess what? It's not the fault of minorities, immigrants, government policies or foreign manufacturing, or "woke" agendas. It's your failure, and you should own it, rather than embracing the lies that tell you what you want to hear, rather than the truths you don't. Then get off your couch and do something. Or learn to do something then do something. There are over 80,000 unfilled jobs in the American trades, and no one is outsourcing automotive, plumbing, carpentry, electrical, masonry or ironwork jobs to China. Apprenticeships are short, paid, and usually lead to well paying jobs. Our master plumber makes more than our primary physician.

    So what are you waiting for? Go on, put on some pants and shoes and contribute. You'll soon be living the American Dream, guaranteed.

    I recently retired from fire protection design, and there are also similar positions in HVAC, plumbing, and electrical. There are many jobs working in the field and in the front office as a detailer, or designer in these four disciplines, that go begging for people to fill positions them, many of the field positions are unionized and offer apprenticeship programs through the Union, that last 2 to 3 years, those apprenticeships can lead to a very well paying job that can lead to many good things if you’re willing to work hard, and in the front office area, detailers and designers positions are available, right out of high school or junior college, if you know how to use AutoCad, Revit, Bluebeam, Adobe Acrobat, and Navis manage, companies, in those four disciplines will pay and teach you on the job all you need to know to be a designer or detailer. 

    Because most schools in America don’t teach these disciplines, next time you walk into a building look up, you’ll see fire sprinklers at the ceiling, someone has to design and layout those locations, Fire sprinkler design is a very lucrative field, but it’s not taught in schools, but if you know any young kid, who knows how to use those programs and are willing to work, they can get a job in a very lucrative field that most don’t know about, and since most companies are always looking for people, they are willing to teach you how on the job. 

    Also, if your company offers a 401(k), always maximize your contributions to it and keep up with it, if you don’t, no one else will, I can only speak for fire protection, but most companies offer great benefits, so if you know any young kid that knows how to use those programs (particularly AutoCad and Revit), and they’re looking for something, there are many fire protection, companies looking.
    You hit the nail on the head. There are many trades begging for qualified workers! More proof that going into the trades isn't just for dropouts anymore. I got into the printing trade in 1979, became journeyman in 1981, and master pressman in 1986. Opened my own printing business in 1987, and became profitable from week 6! After 3 years, I was able to buy the building in which my shop was located. And if you love high technology, you'll love the printing/graphics business! Everything is driven by technology. The reason I left the business in 2003 was I had to choose between spending $500,000 to upgrade systems, or sell (business and building) and move on to my next career: leveraging my graphic arts experience to get a great job at Apple, until I retired in 2014.

    And there's something deeply satisfying about looking at the end of your day, your month, your career, and being able to say "I made that!"
    TSMC is essentially a high-tech printing business. Instead of books, it prints out chips. Instead of book authors, its customers are chip designers. 
    FileMakerFellerJP234
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