This nothing wrong with the concept of reining in the power of "gatekeepers" to ensure fair competition. But the way the EU went about setting the criteria to determine who are "gatekeepers" is a bunch of BS. The criteria was set to ensure the big 5 US techs can not escape being a "gatekeeper" and no EU companies get snared.
>“Let’s focus first on the biggest problems, on the biggest bottlenecks. Let’s go down the line — one, two, three, four, five — and maybe six with Alibaba,” he said to the Financial Times.
“But let’s not start with number 7 to include a European gatekeeper just to please [US president Joe] Biden,” he added.<
Some one did a survey on all the criteria that the EU came up with to determine who was a "gatekeeper' and they concluded that the numbers were determined backwards. In other words, the EU already knew who they wanted to include as "gatekeeper" and use threshold numbers that would only included the 5 big US techs. The EU did not first do any evidence gathering to determine the threshold needed for any of the numbers that would make a company anti-competitive and then just by coincidence, the numbers manage to included all the 5 big US techs and hardly any other companies.
Here's long but very informative analysis done on the DMA and just some of the flaws about it that was overlooked by the EU (or they just didn't care) because the DMA "gatekeeper" criteria was all about regulating the 5 big US tech. Now this was done in 2021 so some of the stuff mention might not be true today. But the DMA criteria for a "gatekeeper" didn't really change much since 2021. If anything, the criteria might have gotten narrower.
If apple had done what they originally promised and opened iMessage and Facetime, there wouldn’t be a problem. I’m not a big fan of EU sticking their noses into businesses either, but if they need to be forced to do the right thing… That’s what’s going to happen. It’s the same as with USB-C. If they’d done the obviously right thing years ago, there wouldn’t be a law now.
Apple doesn’t need to open up iMessage, or FaceTime to anyone (both were derided by the tech press at their intro, now everyone wants a piece), the products were designed by Apple to make the experience of owning Apple devices, the best that they can be, Apple is the only vertical computer company left from the golden age, in the computer market, they don’t have to be mediocre/at the same level, iMessage was only created because the other existing messaging apps similar to the AAA game market didn’t support Apple products.
Apple as they have had to do over the years to survive, didn’t cry for government help, instead Apple rolled up their sleeves, and created OS software, program software, Apple Silicon, and ecosystems to support their vision, Apple has coincidently just recently announced a new ecosystem coming early next year and as usual, all of the core OS, program software, hardware, and soc chip engineering, etc. has to be created from the ground up.
Apple is in the business of selling hardware and you can’t sell hardware, unless you have excellent core software that shows/runs your hardware to the best of its ability, and that does not come from third-party software they cannot and will never support Apple devices at the core architectural level or any other level.
Propping up the perennial EU money losing parasites like Spotify is not Apple’s job.
This nothing wrong with the concept of reining in the power of "gatekeepers" to ensure fair competition. But the way the EU went about setting the criteria to determine who are "gatekeepers" is a bunch of BS. The criteria was set to ensure the big 5 US techs can not escape being a "gatekeeper" and no EU companies get snared.
I appreciate you taking the time in your response. I couldn’t read the Economist (paywall). I think the Economist is OK at best, so while it’s mildly surprising that they show interest in tech, their response is consistent with the publication’s laissez-faire policy. The ITIF is a US “non-profit think tank” enough to sound the alarm bells. No doubt representing the interests of US tech industry. Interestingly, the arguments of both the Economist and the ITIF use the same talking points, leading me to suspect that they originate from the same place — the affected US tech industry.
If apple had done what they originally promised and opened iMessage and Facetime, there wouldn’t be a problem. I’m not a big fan of EU sticking their noses into businesses either, but if they need to be forced to do the right thing… That’s what’s going to happen. It’s the same as with USB-C. If they’d done the obviously right thing years ago, there wouldn’t be a law now.
Where was USB-C again in 2012 when Apple introduced Lightning?
This was the convoluted state of USB at that time:
It took Apple to show the USB group how to design a connector "right". But pride and/or poor long term memory would never allow people to admit that.
If apple had done what they originally promised and opened iMessage and Facetime, there wouldn’t be a problem. I’m not a big fan of EU sticking their noses into businesses either, but if they need to be forced to do the right thing… That’s what’s going to happen. It’s the same as with USB-C. If they’d done the obviously right thing years ago, there wouldn’t be a law now.
Where was USB-C again in 2012 when Apple introduced Lightning?
This was the convoluted state of USB at that time:
It took Apple to show the USB group how to design a connector "right". But pride and/or poor long term memory would never allow people to admit that.
To be fair, everyone already knew how to design a reversible connector. The designers of the original USB variants deliberately ruled out a reversible connector because it would have increased manufacturing costs and it was important to get industry onboard.
Once it had established itself as 'universal' the reversible connector could be planned.
If apple had done what they originally promised and opened iMessage and Facetime, there wouldn’t be a problem. I’m not a big fan of EU sticking their noses into businesses either, but if they need to be forced to do the right thing… That’s what’s going to happen. It’s the same as with USB-C. If they’d done the obviously right thing years ago, there wouldn’t be a law now.
Where did Apple ever promise to “open” Messages?
FaceTime, you’re referring to Jobs’ off the cuff comment that he would. Afterwards engineers told people like Gruber that this was the first they’d heard of it, and IP would prevent being able to do so.
re USB-C — Apple lead the way w/ Lightning and the rest of the industry followed. Apple was on the USB committee, btw, so their influence is again obvious.
If apple had done what they originally promised and opened iMessage and Facetime, there wouldn’t be a problem. I’m not a big fan of EU sticking their noses into businesses either, but if they need to be forced to do the right thing… That’s what’s going to happen. It’s the same as with USB-C. If they’d done the obviously right thing years ago, there wouldn’t be a law now.
Where was USB-C again in 2012 when Apple introduced Lightning?
This was the convoluted state of USB at that time:
It took Apple to show the USB group how to design a connector "right". But pride and/or poor long term memory would never allow people to admit that.
To be fair, everyone already knew how to design a reversible connector. The designers of the original USB variants deliberately ruled out a reversible connector because it would have increased manufacturing costs and it was important to get industry onboard.
Once it had established itself as 'universal' the reversible connector could be planned.
LOL. Please link us to a pre-Lightning USB roadmap that documents your claim — that the USB working group planned to do the USB-C connector before seeing Apple do it. News to me.
If apple had done what they originally promised and opened iMessage and Facetime, there wouldn’t be a problem. I’m not a big fan of EU sticking their noses into businesses either, but if they need to be forced to do the right thing… That’s what’s going to happen. It’s the same as with USB-C. If they’d done the obviously right thing years ago, there wouldn’t be a law now.
Where was USB-C again in 2012 when Apple introduced Lightning?
This was the convoluted state of USB at that time:
It took Apple to show the USB group how to design a connector "right". But pride and/or poor long term memory would never allow people to admit that.
To be fair, everyone already knew how to design a reversible connector. The designers of the original USB variants deliberately ruled out a reversible connector because it would have increased manufacturing costs and it was important to get industry onboard.
Once it had established itself as 'universal' the reversible connector could be planned.
It wasn't the costs, it was mainly that there were so many competing interests and they were trying to make everyone happy. Different power requirements for different devices, form factors, etc.
I worked on both the Firewire and USB drivers for Linux and the USB communication/bus control protocols were far far more complicated. Not surprising that, even still with USB-C and having learned from the past, there are still all sorts of bugs and quirks in the driver stack on most OSes. The complexity of USB is part of the reason Apple went in their own direction at the time.
Opening iMessage to 3rd party will ultimately remove any security measures Apple implemented.
Apple is on the USB committee but couldn't convince them to adopt the reversible USB standard they designed. They eventually caved in after seeing Lightning:
According to noted Apple pundit John Gruber of Daring Fireball, Apple was the singular driver behind the USB-C standard. Gruber said this on the latest episode of his podcast, The Talk Show:
“I have heard, I can’t say who but lets call them informed little birdies, that USB-C is an Apple invention and that they gave it to the standards bodies … and that the politics of such is that they can’t really say that. They’re not going to come out in public and say that but that they did. It is an Apple invention and they want it to become a standard.
“What I’ve heard is that it’s an Apple invention that was sort of developed alongside Lightning and that they donated, they gave to the standards bodies because they want the industry standard to be thin enough for their devices and they want it to be reversible.”
If apple had done what they originally promised and opened iMessage and Facetime, there wouldn’t be a problem. I’m not a big fan of EU sticking their noses into businesses either, but if they need to be forced to do the right thing… That’s what’s going to happen. It’s the same as with USB-C. If they’d done the obviously right thing years ago, there wouldn’t be a law now.
Where was USB-C again in 2012 when Apple introduced Lightning?
This was the convoluted state of USB at that time:
It took Apple to show the USB group how to design a connector "right". But pride and/or poor long term memory would never allow people to admit that.
To be fair, everyone already knew how to design a reversible connector. The designers of the original USB variants deliberately ruled out a reversible connector because it would have increased manufacturing costs and it was important to get industry onboard.
Once it had established itself as 'universal' the reversible connector could be planned.
LOL. Please link us to a pre-Lightning USB roadmap that documents your claim — that the USB working group planned to do the USB-C connector before seeing Apple do it. News to me.
Can I just say, I want the choice for Apple to be my gate keeper be that iMessage or App Store or otherwise. Me, as the consumer, should have that choice. I don't need the EU to tell me otherwise. Choice, it should be decision.
Can I just say, I want the choice for Apple to be my gate keeper be that iMessage or App Store or otherwise. Me, as the consumer, should have that choice. I don't need the EU to tell me otherwise. Choice, it should be decision.
The EU, as representatives of the respective governments of Europe, have likely decided that you’ll get your wish: Apple will be a gatekeeper.
If apple had done what they originally promised and opened iMessage and Facetime, there wouldn’t be a problem. I’m not a big fan of EU sticking their noses into businesses either, but if they need to be forced to do the right thing… That’s what’s going to happen. It’s the same as with USB-C. If they’d done the obviously right thing years ago, there wouldn’t be a law now.
Where was USB-C again in 2012 when Apple introduced Lightning?
This was the convoluted state of USB at that time:
It took Apple to show the USB group how to design a connector "right". But pride and/or poor long term memory would never allow people to admit that.
To be fair, everyone already knew how to design a reversible connector. The designers of the original USB variants deliberately ruled out a reversible connector because it would have increased manufacturing costs and it was important to get industry onboard.
Once it had established itself as 'universal' the reversible connector could be planned.
So, USB Org should get credit for thinking about reversibility while they were delivering an entire collection of abominable connectors and cables, all in the name of "universality" and "low cost", finally delivering a reversible Type C decades later, yet Apple gets cast as the villain for sticking with Lightning for over a decade, a connector which actually delivered a great user experience?
To top it off, and if rumors are correct, Apple will deliver at least one iPhone model with TB4 performance, and decidedly pushing the envelope of performance beyond the competition, because they can afford to.
If apple had done what they originally promised and opened iMessage and Facetime, there wouldn’t be a problem. I’m not a big fan of EU sticking their noses into businesses either, but if they need to be forced to do the right thing… That’s what’s going to happen. It’s the same as with USB-C. If they’d done the obviously right thing years ago, there wouldn’t be a law now.
Where was USB-C again in 2012 when Apple introduced Lightning?
This was the convoluted state of USB at that time:
It took Apple to show the USB group how to design a connector "right". But pride and/or poor long term memory would never allow people to admit that.
To be fair, everyone already knew how to design a reversible connector. The designers of the original USB variants deliberately ruled out a reversible connector because it would have increased manufacturing costs and it was important to get industry onboard.
Once it had established itself as 'universal' the reversible connector could be planned.
So, USB Org should get credit for thinking about reversibility while they were delivering an entire collection of abominable connectors and cables, all in the name of "universality" and "low cost", finally delivering a reversible Type C decades later, yet Apple gets cast as the villain for sticking with Lightning for over a decade, a connector which actually delivered a great user experience?
To top it off, and if rumors are correct, Apple will deliver at least one iPhone model with TB4 performance, and decidedly pushing the envelope of performance beyond the competition, because they can afford to.
Apple gets cast as the villain for sticking with Lightning for over a decade, a connector which actually delivered a great user experiencedid NOT evolve for well over 10 years despite having the scope to evolve and everything else around it evolved in leaps and bounds during the same period.
If apple had done what they originally promised and opened iMessage and Facetime, there wouldn’t be a problem. I’m not a big fan of EU sticking their noses into businesses either, but if they need to be forced to do the right thing… That’s what’s going to happen. It’s the same as with USB-C. If they’d done the obviously right thing years ago, there wouldn’t be a law now.
Where was USB-C again in 2012 when Apple introduced Lightning?
This was the convoluted state of USB at that time:
It took Apple to show the USB group how to design a connector "right". But pride and/or poor long term memory would never allow people to admit that.
To be fair, everyone already knew how to design a reversible connector. The designers of the original USB variants deliberately ruled out a reversible connector because it would have increased manufacturing costs and it was important to get industry onboard.
Once it had established itself as 'universal' the reversible connector could be planned.
So, USB Org should get credit for thinking about reversibility while they were delivering an entire collection of abominable connectors and cables, all in the name of "universality" and "low cost", finally delivering a reversible Type C decades later, yet Apple gets cast as the villain for sticking with Lightning for over a decade, a connector which actually delivered a great user experience?
To top it off, and if rumors are correct, Apple will deliver at least one iPhone model with TB4 performance, and decidedly pushing the envelope of performance beyond the competition, because they can afford to.
That's a very wacky take on everything.
Reversibility isn't something magical. It is a design consideration on every pluggable interface.
The final decision will be based on relevant criteria.
I don't see the relevance of your TB4 comment save for just saying it for the sake of it (based off a rumor no less). If that is a consideration for you, why not state that, if the rumours prove true, what took Apple so long?
How long is a decade in technology?
Ah! I get it. MFI. And it's USB-C that will provide the backbone for TB4 anyway so that kind of brings us full circle doesn't it?
Of course, that has nothing to do with reversibility.
And no one has mentioned 'villains'. The criticism of Apple's reluctance to move to a better, more universal, solution is perfectly valid. On top of that, Apple's lightning cables have always been poorly designed from a usability perspective. Always! The thinnest, most slippery connectors out there.
The kind of person introducing these laws to target those that cause them discomfort never stops to think it might one day be applied to them.
Huh?
The implication of the original post is that it is ok to go after something so long as it is not something you want gone after by someone else. As an example considering a government ban on cigarettes and cigars, which is ok with you because you do not smoke. Next a ban on alcohol which is ok because you do not drink. The next thing to be banned is soda and again you are ok with that since you do not drink soda. At some point the next item to be banned might be something you like at which time it will not be ok with you even though your thoughtless self watched stuff everyone else liked be banned and now everyone has lost out of something the like.
There is a similar usage referring to the people who watched the atrocities of the Nazi government as they systematically rounded up different groups of people and no one cared because they were not in that group and when their group was next no one was left to stand up for them.
If apple had done what they originally promised and opened iMessage and Facetime, there wouldn’t be a problem. I’m not a big fan of EU sticking their noses into businesses either, but if they need to be forced to do the right thing… That’s what’s going to happen. It’s the same as with USB-C. If they’d done the obviously right thing years ago, there wouldn’t be a law now.
Where was USB-C again in 2012 when Apple introduced Lightning?
This was the convoluted state of USB at that time:
It took Apple to show the USB group how to design a connector "right". But pride and/or poor long term memory would never allow people to admit that.
To be fair, everyone already knew how to design a reversible connector. The designers of the original USB variants deliberately ruled out a reversible connector because it would have increased manufacturing costs and it was important to get industry onboard.
Once it had established itself as 'universal' the reversible connector could be planned.
So, USB Org should get credit for thinking about reversibility while they were delivering an entire collection of abominable connectors and cables, all in the name of "universality" and "low cost", finally delivering a reversible Type C decades later, yet Apple gets cast as the villain for sticking with Lightning for over a decade, a connector which actually delivered a great user experience?
To top it off, and if rumors are correct, Apple will deliver at least one iPhone model with TB4 performance, and decidedly pushing the envelope of performance beyond the competition, because they can afford to.
That's a very wacky take on everything.
Reversibility isn't something magical. It is a design consideration on every pluggable interface.
The final decision will be based on relevant criteria.
I don't see the relevance of your TB4 comment save for just saying it for the sake of it (based off a rumor no less). If that is a consideration for you, why not state that, if the rumours prove true, what took Apple so long?
How long is a decade in technology?
Ah! I get it. MFI. And it's USB-C that will provide the backbone for TB4 anyway so that kind of brings us full circle doesn't it?
Of course, that has nothing to do with reversibility.
And no one has mentioned 'villains'. The criticism of Apple's reluctance to move to a better, more universal, solution is perfectly valid. On top of that, Apple's lightning cables have always been poorly designed from a usability perspective. Always! The thinnest, most slippery connectors out there.
I don't see the relevance of your TB4 comment save for just saying it for the sake of it (based off a rumor no less). If that is a consideration for you, why not state that, if the rumours prove true, what took Apple so long?
Speculation on my part, but Apple had to create the TB4 silicon for the low power requirements of the iPhone, so naturally, they would have waited as long as necessary to accomplish that and still meet the EU's requirement. As you are wont to state, "we'll see".
While that was going on, Apple also delivered Magsafe, known today as Qi2 for the Android OS world, which with WiFi 6E for the iPhone 15, removes most of the necessity for the Type C/TB4 connection in everyday use, because Apple could.
I'm guessing that every iPhone delivered since Magsafe introduction in October 2020, sans maybe the SE, has Magsafe, so yeah, huge standard.
For the record, with the exception of a single cable that failed from faulty strain relief, I never had an issue with a Lightning cable, but I sure have had issues with Micro USB and Mini USB on personal electronics devices, which were the default for the EU up until Type C.
Comments
Apple doesn’t need to open up iMessage, or FaceTime to anyone (both were derided by the tech press at their intro, now everyone wants a piece), the products were designed by Apple to make the experience of owning Apple devices, the best that they can be, Apple is the only vertical computer company left from the golden age, in the computer market, they don’t have to be mediocre/at the same level, iMessage was only created because the other existing messaging apps similar to the AAA game market didn’t support Apple products.
Apple as they have had to do over the years to survive, didn’t cry for government help, instead Apple rolled up their sleeves, and created OS software, program software, Apple Silicon, and ecosystems to support their vision, Apple has coincidently just recently announced a new ecosystem coming early next year and as usual, all of the core OS, program software, hardware, and soc chip engineering, etc. has to be created from the ground up.
Apple is in the business of selling hardware and you can’t sell hardware, unless you have excellent core software that shows/runs your hardware to the best of its ability, and that does not come from third-party software they cannot and will never support Apple devices at the core architectural level or any other level.
Propping up the perennial EU money losing parasites like Spotify is not Apple’s job.
This was the convoluted state of USB at that time:
It took Apple to show the USB group how to design a connector "right". But pride and/or poor long term memory would never allow people to admit that.
Once it had established itself as 'universal' the reversible connector could be planned.
FaceTime, you’re referring to Jobs’ off the cuff comment that he would. Afterwards engineers told people like Gruber that this was the first they’d heard of it, and IP would prevent being able to do so.
re USB-C — Apple lead the way w/ Lightning and the rest of the industry followed. Apple was on the USB committee, btw, so their influence is again obvious.
I worked on both the Firewire and USB drivers for Linux and the USB communication/bus control protocols were far far more complicated. Not surprising that, even still with USB-C and having learned from the past, there are still all sorts of bugs and quirks in the driver stack on most OSes. The complexity of USB is part of the reason Apple went in their own direction at the time.
https://www.npr.org/2019/06/21/734451600/ever-plugged-a-usb-in-wrong-of-course-you-have-heres-why
To top it off, and if rumors are correct, Apple will deliver at least one iPhone model with TB4 performance, and decidedly pushing the envelope of performance beyond the competition, because they can afford to.
- Fixed that for you.
Reversibility isn't something magical. It is a design consideration on every pluggable interface.
The final decision will be based on relevant criteria.
I don't see the relevance of your TB4 comment save for just saying it for the sake of it (based off a rumor no less). If that is a consideration for you, why not state that, if the rumours prove true, what took Apple so long?
How long is a decade in technology?
Ah! I get it. MFI. And it's USB-C that will provide the backbone for TB4 anyway so that kind of brings us full circle doesn't it?
Of course, that has nothing to do with reversibility.
And no one has mentioned 'villains'. The criticism of Apple's reluctance to move to a better, more universal, solution is perfectly valid. On top of that, Apple's lightning cables have always been poorly designed from a usability perspective. Always! The thinnest, most slippery connectors out there.
There is a similar usage referring to the people who watched the atrocities of the Nazi government as they systematically rounded up different groups of people and no one cared because they were not in that group and when their group was next no one was left to stand up for them.
While that was going on, Apple also delivered Magsafe, known today as Qi2 for the Android OS world, which with WiFi 6E for the iPhone 15, removes most of the necessity for the Type C/TB4 connection in everyday use, because Apple could.
https://appleinsider.com/inside/magsafe/vs/magsafe-vs-qi2----everything-you-need-to-know-before-the-iphone-15-launch
I'm guessing that every iPhone delivered since Magsafe introduction in October 2020, sans maybe the SE, has Magsafe, so yeah, huge standard.
For the record, with the exception of a single cable that failed from faulty strain relief, I never had an issue with a Lightning cable, but I sure have had issues with Micro USB and Mini USB on personal electronics devices, which were the default for the EU up until Type C.