Apple's flavor of RCS won't support Google's end-to-end encryption extension

13

Comments

  • Reply 41 of 61
    mjtomlinmjtomlin Posts: 2,673member
    avon b7 said:
    gatorguy said:
    Apple basically said “fuck you” to Google.

    I’ve repeatedly said Apple should counter Google’s shame campaign by announcing they’ll support RCS when Google opens up their RCS APIs for everyone. Including competitors like WhatsApp or Telegram.

    Google has their own RCS APIs in Android but Samsung is the only one allowed to use them. Developers have asked and Google has done nothing to allow other Apps to implement RCS via their system and use E2EE.

    So Apple did one better and said they’ll work with standards bodies to improve RCS.

    Now Google’s hopes of a messaging duopoly are finished.


    ... So don't stake your hopes on Apple coming to our rescue riding a white horse. ...
    Our rescue? Don't you mean your rescue, Android users' rescue? Those of us living in the land of blue bubbles don't actually need rescuing at the moment, thank you very much.
    We mustn't forget that for millions of iOS users, Messages is not a viable option right now due to a lack of feature parity with other platforms. The result is that those users simply stop using Messages altogether. 

    Those users would probably like to be 'rescued' in some way, as, as things stand, they aren't using blue bubbles at all. 

    I agree that this move is likely something done to appease the EU. Whether it is enough or not is currently unknown. 

    I guess Apple is striving to do the absolute minimum to cross the line of interoperability here. 

    RCS is a cellular texting protocol for replacing Texting/SMS/MMS. Apple has thus far refused to support it, because it lacks a standard E2EE protocol. However, they (along with many other companies) are working with GSMA to implement one.

    The EU wants interoperability between all messaging platforms. Supporting RCS will have zero impact on what the EU wants. As that will not make iMessage compatible with WhatsApp, nor Kik, or Telegram, or FaceBook Messenger, etc. They want all these messaging apps to support a common standard protocol so they can intercommunicate with each other. This is not new, there have been many open standard messaging protocols over the years, and they all die because innovation goes out the window when 10 heads can’t agree on what features get added next.
    williamlondon
  • Reply 42 of 61
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,088member
    spheric said:
    gatorguy said:
    Apple basically said “fuck you” to Google.

    I’ve repeatedly said Apple should counter Google’s shame campaign by announcing they’ll support RCS when Google opens up their RCS APIs for everyone. Including competitors like WhatsApp or Telegram.

    Google has their own RCS APIs in Android but Samsung is the only one allowed to use them. Developers have asked and Google has done nothing to allow other Apps to implement RCS via their system and use E2EE.

    So Apple did one better and said they’ll work with standards bodies to improve RCS.

    Now Google’s hopes of a messaging duopoly are finished.


    Apple has no incentive to see E2EE come to RCS. For the sake of marketing, they need to be able to claim iMessage is more secure than any others. Once all of them are interoperably encrypted Apple loses a talking point. 
    Nor does Google — if they did, they'd let other app vendors use their RCS API. 

    Since they don't, we can assume that interoperability is not a priority — it's getting people to use Google's own messaging app. 
    Ah, you assume because someone here said they don't that they were right? That person wasn't. Always check for yourself before believing everything someone here says.  
    https://developers.google.com/business-communications/rcs-business-messaging/reference/rest

    Then there are these current Google RCS users:
    • 1-800 Contacts
    • 1-800 Flowers.com
    • Booking.com
    • SnapTravel
    • Subway
    • Smooch
    • Twilio
    • ATT
    • T-Mo
    • Verizon
    • Orange

    Suppose you want to talk about the encryption specifically being unavailable to developers. In that case, it's only been available in Google Messages for less than a year, and group chat E2EE for barely more than 90 days. Did you expect fleshed-out API's for developers already? Reading Reddit developer threads, the high potential for misuse/abuse from some of them has been pointed out, and working on a way of vetting apps individually was mentioned as a reasonable expectation.

    In the meantime, Google is still prodding GSMA to make encryption an essential part of the standard, an effort that pre-dates whatever assistance Apple might offer next year, and which would make Google's Signal-based E2EE no longer needed (unless it becomes the standard or part of it). It was the foot-dragging by GSMA that led to Google taking responsibility for doing it for them to begin with. To me, that shows E2EE is not a priority for the carrier-controlled GSMA and RCS wasn't going to have it (nor did carriers want it) without a powerful an capable Apple or Google. Apple had no incentive to get involved, so it was left to Google to figure out. 

    They've also been an early advocate of MLS, which does make E2E encryption essential in the evolving standard.
    https://www.ietf.org/blog/mls-secure-and-usable-end-to-end-encryption/

     As evidence of their intent to encrypt interoperable chat sessions, Google already added support for MLS, which BTW is what I expect will be the requirement for messaging apps to talk with each other in a secure and private manner. I don't think RCS is it, though it will obviously be a large part of the chat landscape, and a huge step up from SMS/MMS.
    edited November 2023 Alex1Nmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 43 of 61
    It’s Google. Of course Apple doesn’t trust them to not use the encryption keys to take a peak whenever they (or the highest bidder) want. Google isn’t about privacy. That’s literally the antithesis of their entire business model. 

    With Google, whether it’s search, mail, docs, spreadsheets, etc., you are the product. Their version of encryption sounds good - until you realize it’s just a Trojan horse to lull you to sleep. 

    Apple, meanwhile, needs to babysit whatever services integrate with iMessage. Literally everyone wants to peek inside our iPhones. RCS is Google way of getting through. A “universal” encryption needs to be thoroughly reviewed to ensure Google, nor the standards body nor the DOJ can just unencrypted whenever they want. 
  • Reply 44 of 61
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,088member
    It’s Google. Of course Apple doesn’t trust them to not use the encryption keys to take a peak whenever they (or the highest bidder) want. Google isn’t about privacy. That’s literally the antithesis of their entire business model.
    They don't possess a key, so they cannot sneak a peek even if they were so inclined. Unlike you, Apple already knows that too. Even the cloud backups of the messages are default E2EE, useless for authorities to even ask for them, which can make it even more secure from prying eyes than iMessage.

    Apple's choices have nothing to do with suspicions over the security of Google's RCS, and all about protecting the marketing value of iMessage. 
    edited November 2023
  • Reply 45 of 61
    sphericspheric Posts: 2,529member
    Thanks for setting the record straight on Google’s APIs. Serves me right for assuming that someone knew what he was talking about. 
    gatorguymuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 46 of 61
    I do not understand why this is news. I do not know anyone who owns an Android phone, Everyone I know owns an iPhone.
    That might apply to you, and I’m happy for you :). Sadly, for me, most of my contacts (here in Australia) have green bubbles. So for me it is news. On the other hand, I do also use Telegram and (very reluctantly) WhatsApp, which cut across the blue/green divide to a certain extent.
  • Reply 47 of 61
    jimh2jimh2 Posts: 585member
    maasj said:
    Just use Signal
    Why would anyone deviate from iMessage?
  • Reply 48 of 61
    gatorguy said:
    davidw said:
    gatorguy said:
    chasm said:
    Anilu_777 said:
    I still wonder why Google even cares about this and then why it’s pushing so hard. I don’t trust Google. 
    Oh, let me clarify that for you. Google wants to a) collect data from messages, and b) push rich advertising into messages, which of course they would benefit from.

    I didn’t make this up — it’s been referred to in previous articles talking about Google’s version of RCS. Apple would never allow crap like that, so Google was never going to get Apple to adopt their version of RCS.

    I am actually starting to feel bad for Android users, because if Google gets its way their experience in messaging is about to get a lot crappier.
    Google cannot collect user data from Google Messages RCS. End of story. So yeah, you made that part up.

    Can RCS be used for delivering rich media which could include advertising? Yup, but that's not a Google exclusive.

    You're the one making things up. We went through this once before and you are still so blindly loyal to Google that you don't want to see what is plainly clear for everyone else.

    Google E2EE with their version of RCS, can only exist if both the sender and receiver are using Google Messages. All Google Messages uses Google servers and this is what allows Google version of RCS to have E2EE. Much like how all iMessage users are all using Apple servers and WhatsApp users are all using WhatsApp servers. If either the sender or receiver are not using Google Messages, the message is no longer E2EE. Even Google Messages will default to SMS, so the receiver can still get the text message. And this will most likely happen in a group chat where if one of the person in the chat is not using Google Messages, the whole chat is no longer E2EE for anyone in it. So to say that Google can not collect users data from Google Messages is making things up. You can't possibly believe that Google can not collect users data from unencrypted messages, that they are hosting on their own servers.   

    This is why when Apple adopts RCS, there will still be no E2EE between iMessage and Google Messager. They exist on two different companies servers and uses different protocol. Google RCS E2EE is not a standard. And neither is Apple iMessage E2EE. However, when Apple adopts RCS, both iMessage users and Google Messages user will be able to text each other using the standard RCS. Much like how they can text each other using SMS now. And both Apple and Google can collect users data. But it's mainly Google collecting users data that is the concern for most. And you can bet that if the telecoms adopts a standard E2EE protocol, Google will not be all too happy, as once that happens as Android users no longer be locked into using Google Messages to receive RCS messages that are E2EE. Once E2EE protocol is a standard, it will be avialable for every messaging service to use. Which is what Apple is waiting for.  


    To repeat. Google cannot access user data or message contents in a Google RCS chat.  A fact the first time I said it. 

    You are confusing things with a non-RCS chat, meaning some participants either cannot or choose not to take advantage of Google RCS, which is end-to-end encrypted by default. 

    If Google's aim was to harvest user data from messages it would be more effective had they not set E2EE as default, or better yet just stuck with SMS/MMS which didn't cost them anything. :) And if they were going to go all-in with RCS at least make encryption opt-in if the intent was eavesdropping and data-mining. Kinda hard to collect what you can't see. 

    They can still see the metadata. Or did you think NSA collected it for funsies. 
  • Reply 49 of 61
    gatorguy said:
    gatorguy said:
    davidw said:
    gatorguy said:
    chasm said:
    Anilu_777 said:
    I still wonder why Google even cares about this and then why it’s pushing so hard. I don’t trust Google. 
    Oh, let me clarify that for you. Google wants to a) collect data from messages, and b) push rich advertising into messages, which of course they would benefit from.

    I didn’t make this up — it’s been referred to in previous articles talking about Google’s version of RCS. Apple would never allow crap like that, so Google was never going to get Apple to adopt their version of RCS.

    I am actually starting to feel bad for Android users, because if Google gets its way their experience in messaging is about to get a lot crappier.
    Google cannot collect user data from Google Messages RCS. End of story. So yeah, you made that part up.

    Can RCS be used for delivering rich media which could include advertising? Yup, but that's not a Google exclusive.

    You're the one making things up. We went through this once before and you are still so blindly loyal to Google that you don't want to see what is plainly clear for everyone else.

    Google E2EE with their version of RCS, can only exist if both the sender and receiver are using Google Messages. All Google Messages uses Google servers and this is what allows Google version of RCS to have E2EE. Much like how all iMessage users are all using Apple servers and WhatsApp users are all using WhatsApp servers. If either the sender or receiver are not using Google Messages, the message is no longer E2EE. Even Google Messages will default to SMS, so the receiver can still get the text message. And this will most likely happen in a group chat where if one of the person in the chat is not using Google Messages, the whole chat is no longer E2EE for anyone in it. So to say that Google can not collect users data from Google Messages is making things up. You can't possibly believe that Google can not collect users data from unencrypted messages, that they are hosting on their own servers.   

    This is why when Apple adopts RCS, there will still be no E2EE between iMessage and Google Messager. They exist on two different companies servers and uses different protocol. Google RCS E2EE is not a standard. And neither is Apple iMessage E2EE. However, when Apple adopts RCS, both iMessage users and Google Messages user will be able to text each other using the standard RCS. Much like how they can text each other using SMS now. And both Apple and Google can collect users data. But it's mainly Google collecting users data that is the concern for most. And you can bet that if the telecoms adopts a standard E2EE protocol, Google will not be all too happy, as once that happens as Android users no longer be locked into using Google Messages to receive RCS messages that are E2EE. Once E2EE protocol is a standard, it will be avialable for every messaging service to use. Which is what Apple is waiting for.  


    To repeat. Google cannot access user data or message contents in a Google RCS chat.  A fact the first time I said it. 

    Sure, and I know you like to try to shout down bad news, but you keep harping on that very narrow point to distract from the facts that if the chat becomes unencrypted they can and that they still know who the users are and can use that information to map the connections between them. Sometimes the meta data is more valuable than the actual data.
    Of course it does and it doesn't matter whose messaging you use. Once the chat is no longer encrypted, maybe inadequate cross-compatibilty or an old leaky standard in use, then the provider and carrier can see who the users are even if encryption is the default. It's funny if you don't think that applies to your Apple messaging services just as surely as Google Messages. 
    Goes to motivation, and in that circumstance, Apple is a safer bet wrt to respecting its users privacy. 
  • Reply 50 of 61
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,088member
    longfang said:
    gatorguy said:
    davidw said:
    gatorguy said:
    chasm said:
    Anilu_777 said:
    I still wonder why Google even cares about this and then why it’s pushing so hard. I don’t trust Google. 
    Oh, let me clarify that for you. Google wants to a) collect data from messages, and b) push rich advertising into messages, which of course they would benefit from.

    I didn’t make this up — it’s been referred to in previous articles talking about Google’s version of RCS. Apple would never allow crap like that, so Google was never going to get Apple to adopt their version of RCS.

    I am actually starting to feel bad for Android users, because if Google gets its way their experience in messaging is about to get a lot crappier.
    Google cannot collect user data from Google Messages RCS. End of story. So yeah, you made that part up.

    Can RCS be used for delivering rich media which could include advertising? Yup, but that's not a Google exclusive.

    You're the one making things up. We went through this once before and you are still so blindly loyal to Google that you don't want to see what is plainly clear for everyone else.

    Google E2EE with their version of RCS, can only exist if both the sender and receiver are using Google Messages. All Google Messages uses Google servers and this is what allows Google version of RCS to have E2EE. Much like how all iMessage users are all using Apple servers and WhatsApp users are all using WhatsApp servers. If either the sender or receiver are not using Google Messages, the message is no longer E2EE. Even Google Messages will default to SMS, so the receiver can still get the text message. And this will most likely happen in a group chat where if one of the person in the chat is not using Google Messages, the whole chat is no longer E2EE for anyone in it. So to say that Google can not collect users data from Google Messages is making things up. You can't possibly believe that Google can not collect users data from unencrypted messages, that they are hosting on their own servers.   

    This is why when Apple adopts RCS, there will still be no E2EE between iMessage and Google Messager. They exist on two different companies servers and uses different protocol. Google RCS E2EE is not a standard. And neither is Apple iMessage E2EE. However, when Apple adopts RCS, both iMessage users and Google Messages user will be able to text each other using the standard RCS. Much like how they can text each other using SMS now. And both Apple and Google can collect users data. But it's mainly Google collecting users data that is the concern for most. And you can bet that if the telecoms adopts a standard E2EE protocol, Google will not be all too happy, as once that happens as Android users no longer be locked into using Google Messages to receive RCS messages that are E2EE. Once E2EE protocol is a standard, it will be avialable for every messaging service to use. Which is what Apple is waiting for.  


    To repeat. Google cannot access user data or message contents in a Google RCS chat.  A fact the first time I said it. 

    You are confusing things with a non-RCS chat, meaning some participants either cannot or choose not to take advantage of Google RCS, which is end-to-end encrypted by default. 

    If Google's aim was to harvest user data from messages it would be more effective had they not set E2EE as default, or better yet just stuck with SMS/MMS which didn't cost them anything. :) And if they were going to go all-in with RCS at least make encryption opt-in if the intent was eavesdropping and data-mining. Kinda hard to collect what you can't see. 

    They can still see the metadata. Or did you think NSA collected it for funsies. 

    Apple logs your iMessage metadata too, and the same categories as with Google Messages. They also have shared that metadata with law enforcement. Does that make Apple evil, and cause you to stop using it? Of course not. 
    https://appleinsider.com/articles/16/09/29/apple-acknowledges-tracking-imessage-metadata-and-sharing-it-with-law-enforcement
    I haven't seen claims that Google has done the same sharing, but it would not shock me. 

    The important takeaway:  iMessage and Google Messages are equally secure and private, both being E2EE, and both log metadata. If you wonder why they do it,  it's an easy find in a web search. Once you discover why it will make sense. 
    edited November 2023 dewmemuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 51 of 61
    sphericspheric Posts: 2,529member
    jimh2 said:
    maasj said:
    Just use Signal
    Why would anyone deviate from iMessage?
    Because outside of the US and Britain, nobody uses iMessage. 
    williamlondonmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 52 of 61
    gatorguy said:
    gatorguy said:
    Apple basically said “fuck you” to Google.

    I’ve repeatedly said Apple should counter Google’s shame campaign by announcing they’ll support RCS when Google opens up their RCS APIs for everyone. Including competitors like WhatsApp or Telegram.

    Google has their own RCS APIs in Android but Samsung is the only one allowed to use them. Developers have asked and Google has done nothing to allow other Apps to implement RCS via their system and use E2EE.

    So Apple did one better and said they’ll work with standards bodies to improve RCS.

    Now Google’s hopes of a messaging duopoly are finished.


    Apple has no incentive to see E2EE come to RCS. For the sake of marketing, they need to be able to claim iMessage is more secure than any others. Once all of them are interoperably encrypted Apple loses a talking point. 

    So don't stake your hopes on Apple coming to our rescue riding a white horse. IMO they are doing this hoping that minimal effort will appease EU regulators, while avoiding risk to the marketing value of iMessage. Going in with half a heart won't push GSMA to do anything. We wouldn't have gotten this far without Google, in effect, telling carriers get screwed and get out of the way 5 years ago, secure and private messaging is coming despite you.
    https://www.theverge.com/2019/6/17/18681573/google-rcs-chat-android-texting-carriers-imessage-encryption

    Google is not always on the right side of things, but in the past few years they done better. This is one of those Google-is-on-the-right-side things. 

    Apple doesn’t care if RCS gets E2EE as it won’t threaten iMessage. RCS will just be a different colored bubble in iMessage that lets users know their chat is RCS and encrypted. All the other benefits of iMessage don’t disappear or become diminished because of RCS.

    Google is on the right side? So restricting developer access to RCS while giving a special deal to Samsung is considered “right”?

    The ONLY reason Google is now cooperating is they would also have to abide by EU laws. This doesn’t just affect Apple.

    Too bad for Google now that the EU buried their last chance at having a dominant messaging platform after 16 years of failures. Had Apple adopted RCS 2 years ago Google Messages would have taken off and displaced countless WhatsApp (or other) users since the only two platforms that could text each other would be iMessage and Google Messages. This is what Google wanted - to have Apple help them become a duopoly. No longer possible.

    Google Messages will be another has-been messaging platform since everyone will be able to talk to everyone else over RCS. WhatsApp users can keep using WhatsApp. iMessage users will keep using iMessage. The most used messengers will retain their current positions in the market, except now they’ll interoperate.
    It was never going to be a duopoly. Outside of the US other messaging apps are the market leaders. But your claim that Google RCS is restricted to Google and Samsung is wrong. You're either not looking (Hint: Jibe) or meant to say the E2EE Google RCS version.

    Seeing as E2EE Google Messages has been out for less than a year, and default group E2EE just three months, the growth has been pretty impressive IMO. I can only assume the E2EE RCS infrastructure is still being built-out, and you should too. It requires a lot of Google resources already.

    You know how things work in Appleland; a big new feature rolls out to one or two regions before gradually getting a wider distribution. A lot of pieces need to be firmly in place before they start running. ApplePay, AppleCard and satellite are some that immediately come to mind. You don't hold that against Apple, but you hold Google to a higher standard?

    Maybe give Google more than a few months to settle in. As a developer yourself you should already have understood that.

    Please. You know exactly what I meant. When Google mentions RCS they mean their version. It’s why they always mention encryption when talking about RCS being superior to SMS. Google is the one intentionally conflating vanilla RCS with their own version.

    E2EE rolled out over 2 years ago so I’m not sure where you got the “less than a year” from.

    Google absolutely wanted a duopoly. It explains their decision to both ask Apple to adopt RCS while also excluding Android developers from using their APIs. It would make Google Messages highly attractive for users as an alternative to WhatsApp and others and allow Google to gain users.

    You’re forgetting their history in trying to become a dominant platform. Like when they required people
    to create a Google+ account to comment on YouTube videos. They ended up with a ton of user signups, but nobody used it despite their pathetic attempt to create users through a tie-in.

    Nothing Google does is for consumer benefit. It’s only for their benefit. Specifically, allowing them to mine user data to feed their targeted advertising. Google is, after all, just an advertising company.
    dewmewilliamlondon
  • Reply 53 of 61
    gatorguy said:
    spheric said:
    gatorguy said:
    Apple basically said “fuck you” to Google.

    I’ve repeatedly said Apple should counter Google’s shame campaign by announcing they’ll support RCS when Google opens up their RCS APIs for everyone. Including competitors like WhatsApp or Telegram.

    Google has their own RCS APIs in Android but Samsung is the only one allowed to use them. Developers have asked and Google has done nothing to allow other Apps to implement RCS via their system and use E2EE.

    So Apple did one better and said they’ll work with standards bodies to improve RCS.

    Now Google’s hopes of a messaging duopoly are finished.


    Apple has no incentive to see E2EE come to RCS. For the sake of marketing, they need to be able to claim iMessage is more secure than any others. Once all of them are interoperably encrypted Apple loses a talking point. 
    Nor does Google — if they did, they'd let other app vendors use their RCS API. 

    Since they don't, we can assume that interoperability is not a priority — it's getting people to use Google's own messaging app. 
    Ah, you assume because someone here said they don't that they were right? That person wasn't. Always check for yourself before believing everything someone here says.  
    https://developers.google.com/business-communications/rcs-business-messaging/reference/rest

    Then there are these current Google RCS users:
    • 1-800 Contacts
    • 1-800 Flowers.com
    • Booking.com
    • SnapTravel
    • Subway
    • Smooch
    • Twilio
    • ATT
    • T-Mo
    • Verizon
    • Orange

    Suppose you want to talk about the encryption specifically being unavailable to developers. In that case, it's only been available in Google Messages for less than a year, and group chat E2EE for barely more than 90 days. Did you expect fleshed-out API's for developers already? Reading Reddit developer threads, the high potential for misuse/abuse from some of them has been pointed out, and working on a way of vetting apps individually was mentioned as a reasonable expectation.

    In the meantime, Google is still prodding GSMA to make encryption an essential part of the standard, an effort that pre-dates whatever assistance Apple might offer next year, and which would make Google's Signal-based E2EE no longer needed (unless it becomes the standard or part of it). It was the foot-dragging by GSMA that led to Google taking responsibility for doing it for them to begin with. To me, that shows E2EE is not a priority for the carrier-controlled GSMA and RCS wasn't going to have it (nor did carriers want it) without a powerful an capable Apple or Google. Apple had no incentive to get involved, so it was left to Google to figure out. 

    They've also been an early advocate of MLS, which does make E2E encryption essential in the evolving standard.
    https://www.ietf.org/blog/mls-secure-and-usable-end-to-end-encryption/

     As evidence of their intent to encrypt interoperable chat sessions, Google already added support for MLS, which BTW is what I expect will be the requirement for messaging apps to talk with each other in a secure and private manner. I don't think RCS is it, though it will obviously be a large part of the chat landscape, and a huge step up from SMS/MMS.

    Google only allows business to use RCS and refuses to let developers use it. This is similar to how Apple has Messages available for businesses to chat with customers.

    Another pathetic attempt to deflect from the real issue:

    Google does not allow messenger Apps access to their RCS APIs. That’s all that matters in the context of this discussion on messaging & RCS.
    williamlondon
  • Reply 54 of 61
    European providers charge their users a fortune for sending SMS to the US, anybody knows if RCS is subject to the same sort of fleecing? It’s one of the reasons that drove users to Skype and then to WhatsApp, in addition to rich messaging.
    gatorguy
  • Reply 55 of 61
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,088member
    gatorguy said:
    spheric said:
    gatorguy said:
    Apple basically said “fuck you” to Google.

    I’ve repeatedly said Apple should counter Google’s shame campaign by announcing they’ll support RCS when Google opens up their RCS APIs for everyone. Including competitors like WhatsApp or Telegram.

    Google has their own RCS APIs in Android but Samsung is the only one allowed to use them. Developers have asked and Google has done nothing to allow other Apps to implement RCS via their system and use E2EE.

    So Apple did one better and said they’ll work with standards bodies to improve RCS.

    Now Google’s hopes of a messaging duopoly are finished.


    Apple has no incentive to see E2EE come to RCS. For the sake of marketing, they need to be able to claim iMessage is more secure than any others. Once all of them are interoperably encrypted Apple loses a talking point. 
    Nor does Google — if they did, they'd let other app vendors use their RCS API. 

    Since they don't, we can assume that interoperability is not a priority — it's getting people to use Google's own messaging app. 
    Ah, you assume because someone here said they don't that they were right? That person wasn't. Always check for yourself before believing everything someone here says.  
    https://developers.google.com/business-communications/rcs-business-messaging/reference/rest

    Then there are these current Google RCS users:
    • 1-800 Contacts
    • 1-800 Flowers.com
    • Booking.com
    • SnapTravel
    • Subway
    • Smooch
    • Twilio
    • ATT
    • T-Mo
    • Verizon
    • Orange

    Suppose you want to talk about the encryption specifically being unavailable to developers. In that case, it's only been available in Google Messages for less than a year, and group chat E2EE for barely more than 90 days. Did you expect fleshed-out API's for developers already? Reading Reddit developer threads, the high potential for misuse/abuse from some of them has been pointed out, and working on a way of vetting apps individually was mentioned as a reasonable expectation.

    In the meantime, Google is still prodding GSMA to make encryption an essential part of the standard, an effort that pre-dates whatever assistance Apple might offer next year, and which would make Google's Signal-based E2EE no longer needed (unless it becomes the standard or part of it). It was the foot-dragging by GSMA that led to Google taking responsibility for doing it for them to begin with. To me, that shows E2EE is not a priority for the carrier-controlled GSMA and RCS wasn't going to have it (nor did carriers want it) without a powerful an capable Apple or Google. Apple had no incentive to get involved, so it was left to Google to figure out. 

    They've also been an early advocate of MLS, which does make E2E encryption essential in the evolving standard.
    https://www.ietf.org/blog/mls-secure-and-usable-end-to-end-encryption/

     As evidence of their intent to encrypt interoperable chat sessions, Google already added support for MLS, which BTW is what I expect will be the requirement for messaging apps to talk with each other in a secure and private manner. I don't think RCS is it, though it will obviously be a large part of the chat landscape, and a huge step up from SMS/MMS.

    Google only allows business to use RCS and refuses to let developers use it. This is similar to how Apple has Messages available for businesses to chat with customers.

    Another pathetic attempt to deflect from the real issue:

    Google does not allow messenger Apps access to their RCS APIs. That’s all that matters in the context of this discussion on messaging & RCS.
    What happened to the Facetime API that Apple promised?

    As a developer you should understand the reasoning behind the extended E2EE Google RCS version not being opened up for hosting on Google servers. If you're unsure, developer threads discuss the potential problems and explain it.  Apple would be a trustworthy Google RCS partner, and they got the invite, but millions of developers not so much. One bad apple (or three or 50) and all that and Google serving 'em, ya know?

    With RCS, what matters now is that Apple has signaled they'll be a partner in it, no more fallback on old leaky sieve SMS except in extreme cases, assuming Apple follows through, which is not guaranteed. What happens between now and the Spring deadline will be ... interesting. :)

    So something else matters much more in the discussion. There's no need for you to have an encrypted Google RCS API anyway, with Google having more rational plans for securing messages moving cross-platform and Google Messages playing nice with everyone and everyone playing nice with them.  With near certainty (IMO), MessageLayerSecurity will be the open-source standard that ties it all together, making them all interoperable and E2EE. Google is already integrating it, as are some other big names. Wouldn't you rather have an open standard not reliant on Google servers?

    Apple too can have messages to and from their users move securely and privately cross-platform or over the web, whether Android to iMessage, iMessage to Google Messages, WhatsApp to iMessage, or Apple to Windows or Linux. All the messaging services equally as secure and private as iMessage and interoperable. MLS on top of RCS. Instead, Apple fights to remain isolated, "we're too small" being the semi-serious claim du jour?

    With you being a smart guy, and I say that sincerely, please explain how that benefits you or anyone outside of Apple marketing. I'm serious.
    edited November 2023
  • Reply 56 of 61
    Honkers said:
    lmasanti said:
    Maybe… just maybe… Apple convinced GSM to put E2EE into the standard.
    Then… Apple will be include RCS in its Ones.

    Simple!

    Apple can even ‘help’ in the effort.
    Apple gave its tech to build Qi2, Matter, the new key standard…
    Not gonna happen. Illegal in most countries, including the U.S. 
    Huh?  What's illegal?
    Most countries do not allow E2EE encryption of telephony systems. They must be tappable by law enforcement. 
  • Reply 57 of 61
    Honkers said:
    lmasanti said:
    Maybe… just maybe… Apple convinced GSM to put E2EE into the standard.
    Then… Apple will be include RCS in its Ones.

    Simple!

    Apple can even ‘help’ in the effort.
    Apple gave its tech to build Qi2, Matter, the new key standard…
    Not gonna happen. Illegal in most countries, including the U.S. 
    Huh?  What's illegal?
    Most countries do not allow E2EE encryption of telephony systems. They must be tappable by law enforcement. 
    So Google's RCS is illegal?  This sounds highly dubious.
  • Reply 58 of 61
    Honkers said:
    Honkers said:
    lmasanti said:
    Maybe… just maybe… Apple convinced GSM to put E2EE into the standard.
    Then… Apple will be include RCS in its Ones.

    Simple!

    Apple can even ‘help’ in the effort.
    Apple gave its tech to build Qi2, Matter, the new key standard…
    Not gonna happen. Illegal in most countries, including the U.S. 
    Huh?  What's illegal?
    Most countries do not allow E2EE encryption of telephony systems. They must be tappable by law enforcement. 
    So Google's RCS is illegal?  This sounds highly dubious.
    Google’s E2EE is IP based and is only E2EE when it’s Google Messages to Google Messages. It’s not going over the telephony network. 
    gatorguy
  • Reply 59 of 61
    Honkers said:
    Honkers said:
    lmasanti said:
    Maybe… just maybe… Apple convinced GSM to put E2EE into the standard.
    Then… Apple will be include RCS in its Ones.

    Simple!

    Apple can even ‘help’ in the effort.
    Apple gave its tech to build Qi2, Matter, the new key standard…
    Not gonna happen. Illegal in most countries, including the U.S. 
    Huh?  What's illegal?
    Most countries do not allow E2EE encryption of telephony systems. They must be tappable by law enforcement. 
    So Google's RCS is illegal?  This sounds highly dubious.
    Google’s E2EE is IP based and is only E2EE when it’s Google Messages to Google Messages. It’s not going over the telephony network. 
    Hmm, so RCS can be E2EE when IP-based over wi-fi, but not when over cellular, even though it's using the cellular data network.

    What an absurd situation.  :s
    edited November 2023
  • Reply 60 of 61
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,088member
    gatorguy said:
    gatorguy said:
    Apple basically said “fuck you” to Google.

    I’ve repeatedly said Apple should counter Google’s shame campaign by announcing they’ll support RCS when Google opens up their RCS APIs for everyone. Including competitors like WhatsApp or Telegram.

    Google has their own RCS APIs in Android but Samsung is the only one allowed to use them. Developers have asked and Google has done nothing to allow other Apps to implement RCS via their system and use E2EE.

    So Apple did one better and said they’ll work with standards bodies to improve RCS.

    Now Google’s hopes of a messaging duopoly are finished.


    Apple has no incentive to see E2EE come to RCS. For the sake of marketing, they need to be able to claim iMessage is more secure than any others. Once all of them are interoperably encrypted Apple loses a talking point. 

    So don't stake your hopes on Apple coming to our rescue riding a white horse. IMO they are doing this hoping that minimal effort will appease EU regulators, while avoiding risk to the marketing value of iMessage. Going in with half a heart won't push GSMA to do anything. We wouldn't have gotten this far without Google, in effect, telling carriers get screwed and get out of the way 5 years ago, secure and private messaging is coming despite you.
    https://www.theverge.com/2019/6/17/18681573/google-rcs-chat-android-texting-carriers-imessage-encryption

    Google is not always on the right side of things, but in the past few years they done better. This is one of those Google-is-on-the-right-side things. 

    Apple doesn’t care if RCS gets E2EE as it won’t threaten iMessage. RCS will just be a different colored bubble in iMessage that lets users know their chat is RCS and encrypted. All the other benefits of iMessage don’t disappear or become diminished because of RCS.

    Google is on the right side? So restricting developer access to RCS while giving a special deal to Samsung is considered “right”?

    The ONLY reason Google is now cooperating is they would also have to abide by EU laws. This doesn’t just affect Apple.

    Too bad for Google now that the EU buried their last chance at having a dominant messaging platform after 16 years of failures. Had Apple adopted RCS 2 years ago Google Messages would have taken off and displaced countless WhatsApp (or other) users since the only two platforms that could text each other would be iMessage and Google Messages. This is what Google wanted - to have Apple help them become a duopoly. No longer possible.

    Google Messages will be another has-been messaging platform since everyone will be able to talk to everyone else over RCS. WhatsApp users can keep using WhatsApp. iMessage users will keep using iMessage. The most used messengers will retain their current positions in the market, except now they’ll interoperate.
    It was never going to be a duopoly. Outside of the US other messaging apps are the market leaders. But your claim that Google RCS is restricted to Google and Samsung is wrong. You're either not looking (Hint: Jibe) or meant to say the E2EE Google RCS version.

    Seeing as E2EE Google Messages has been out for less than a year, and default group E2EE just three months, the growth has been pretty impressive IMO. I can only assume the E2EE RCS infrastructure is still being built-out, and you should too. It requires a lot of Google resources already.

    You know how things work in Appleland; a big new feature rolls out to one or two regions before gradually getting a wider distribution. A lot of pieces need to be firmly in place before they start running. ApplePay, AppleCard and satellite are some that immediately come to mind. You don't hold that against Apple, but you hold Google to a higher standard?

    Maybe give Google more than a few months to settle in. As a developer yourself you should already have understood that.

    Nothing Google does is for consumer benefit. It’s only for their benefit. Specifically, allowing them to mine user data to feed their targeted advertising. Google is, after all, just an advertising company.
    Can E2EE iMessage be used to mine user data? Apply that same answer to E2EE Google Messages. It's identical with both. 
    edited November 2023
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