Apple will implement RCS the minute it adds E2EE, and not a minute before that. It’s insane that the governing body of RCS didn’t implement it themselves.
But what’s even more insane is that Google cares so little about communication security that it never bothered to implement E2EE in its own Android messaging system.
Oh wait, that’s because their business model is to read your communications and harvest/monetise the data gathered from that.
So just that I get this right. Beeper essentially tries to hack the protocol in order to get over the end-to-end security in iMessages. So the DOJ lawyers are the to charge them with hacking, or to ask for help in hacking iMessages!?
But what’s even more insane is that Google cares so little about communication security that it never bothered to implement E2EE in its own Android messaging system.
I'm not sure i understand you. Isn't Google Messages, the official Google Android messaging service and the default for Android and Samsung phones, E2EE?
I have seen Apple users more perplexed about losing blue bubble exclusiveness than Android users caring about that, at this point it's quite evident what really anyone wants. I saw someone wanting to sue the federal agencies because they would lose blue bubble exclusiveness if Android users get iMessage at 9to5mac.
But what’s even more insane is that Google cares so little about communication security that it never bothered to implement E2EE in its own Android messaging system.
I'm not sure i understand you. Isn't Google Messages, the official Google Android messaging service and the default for Android and Samsung phones, E2EE?
I think the OP was referring to Google own messaging systems. For which Google had over a dozen of, over the years. RCS is a telecom messaging system and belongs to the GSMA trade group, whom Google is a member. RCS was suppose to replace SMS, but the telecom never got around to it, until Google got involve (a decade later). RCS predates the iPhone by a couple of years and iMessage by over 5 years. RCS is not a messaging system that is own by Google.
What Google did was to add some extensions to the telecom standard Universal RCS, in order to have E2EE with a proprietary version of RCS, (that requires the use of Google Messages as the client on Android mobile phones). Google implementing E2EE to the telecoms Universal RCS, with Google Messages, is not the same as the companies behind iMessage, WhatsApp, Signal, Telegram, Facebook Messenger and others. Companies that implemented E2EE, to their own messaging system.
Now I not sure if Google had never offer E2EE with any of the over dozen messaging services, that they had on Android over the years (as the OP stated.) But I can see Google putting profits over privacy, when it comes to data mining. And E2EE reduces the amount of customers data that can be mined.
With a quick read, E2EE doesn't seem to be mention here, but that might not be definitive proof the Google had never offer E2EE with any of their own messaging systems.
Remember that RCS currently does not include encryption so those bubbles will still be green. Android users will still have to wait for encryption to be implemented.
RCS E2E encryption is already implemented for Android users, including by default even when backed up to the cloud. No one can see the contents besides the participants, not Google itself or authorities by court order. RCS privacy and security is not an issue until an iPhone user or other incompatible participant enters the conversation and breaks the encryption string,
That problem will remain even after Apple decides to add RCS as backup. It cannot be E2EE for Apple Messages until the carriers who essentially run RCS agree it can. They know how to, but benefit more by not doing it. Still, RCS is safer than using SMS/MMS, so it's a plus if Apple uses it.
No, Apple could had chosen to adapt Google proprietary RCS, if they wanted to have RCS with E2EE, using Apple Messages as the client (on iOS). The telecoms have no say in it. But in order for that (E2EE) to happen, Apple would have to host their Apple Messages RCS on Google's Jibe servers. Just like how all the other telecoms, that wants RCS with E2EE, have to do now. But with more telecoms handling all their RCS needs to Google, it's less likely that they will work together to implement E2EE with RCS, that works across all carriers servers and don't require that they use Google servers and Google Messages.
Apple is not waiting for permission from the telecoms to implement RCS with E2EE. Apple is waiting for when they can implement a standard version of Universal RCS with E2EE, that is not proprietary to Google.
But what’s even more insane is that Google cares so little about communication security that it never bothered to implement E2EE in its own Android messaging system.
I'm not sure i understand you. Isn't Google Messages, the official Google Android messaging service and the default for Android and Samsung phones, E2EE?
I think the OP was referring to Google own messaging systems. For which Google had over a dozen of, over the years. RCS is a telecom messaging system and belongs to the GSMA trade group, whom Google is a member. RCS was suppose to replace SMS, but the telecom never got around to it, until Google got involve (a decade later). RCS predates the iPhone by a couple of years and iMessage by over 5 years. RCS is not a messaging system that is own by Google.
What Google did was to add some extensions to the telecom standard Universal RCS, in order to have E2EE with a proprietary version of RCS, (that requires the use of Google Messages as the client on Android mobile phones). Google implementing E2EE to the telecoms Universal RCS, with Google Messages, is not the same as the companies behind iMessage, WhatsApp, Signal, Telegram, Facebook Messenger and others. Companies that implemented E2EE, to their own messaging system.
If you do a bit of research, won't you find that most (Apple is an exception) messaging services are built on top of another standard? And for the encryption part, most of them rely on the open Signal protocol at their core.
Anyway, FWIW I don't believe Chasm meant Google didn't develop Messages (they did but...) and thus it doesn't count. He just didn't know any better.
Fun Fact: the content of Google Messages cannot be revealed to authorities even by court order. Even Google themselves cannot read them, E2EE from start all the way to Cloud storage. There are others who completely protect their users from law enforcement review too.
But there are three that may be accessed and the service will turn over limited contents from their users otherwise E2EE conversations: iMessage, Line and WhatsApp.
IMO, what matters is private and secure conversations. Apple user to Apple user has it natively. Android user to Android user has it natively. Whatsapp to Whatsapp user has it natively. But Apple users to Android users don't. Why not? That's what interoperability efforts by the EU are meant to fix.
If successful, it will not make Apple users messages less secure. On the contrary, it will make them far MORE secure and private. But Apple was fighting to be the outlier, the one messaging service that could not truly be E2EE? Outside of monetary reasons that makes no sense to me.
Apple services less secure than Google's. Tech is flipped on its head. Time for Apple to right the ship.
But what’s even more insane is that Google cares so little about communication security that it never bothered to implement E2EE in its own Android messaging system.
I'm not sure i understand you. Isn't Google Messages, the official Google Android messaging service and the default for Android and Samsung phones, E2EE?
I think the OP was referring to Google own messaging systems. For which Google had over a dozen of, over the years. RCS is a telecom messaging system and belongs to the GSMA trade group, whom Google is a member. RCS was suppose to replace SMS, but the telecom never got around to it, until Google got involve (a decade later). RCS predates the iPhone by a couple of years and iMessage by over 5 years. RCS is not a messaging system that is own by Google.
What Google did was to add some extensions to the telecom standard Universal RCS, in order to have E2EE with a proprietary version of RCS, (that requires the use of Google Messages as the client on Android mobile phones). Google implementing E2EE to the telecoms Universal RCS, with Google Messages, is not the same as the companies behind iMessage, WhatsApp, Signal, Telegram, Facebook Messenger and others. Companies that implemented E2EE, to their own messaging system.
If you do a bit of research, won't you find that most (Apple is an exception) messaging services are built on top of another standard? And for the encryption part, most of them rely on the open Signal protocol at their core.
Anyway, FWIW I don't believe Chasm meant Google didn't develop Messages (they did but...) and thus it doesn't count. He just didn't know any better.
Fun Fact: the content of Google Messages cannot be revealed to authorities even by court order. Even Google themselves cannot read them, E2EE from start all the way to Cloud storage. There are others who completely protect their users from law enforcement review too.
But there are three that may be accessed and the service will turn over limited contents from their users otherwise E2EE conversations: iMessage, Line and WhatsApp.
IMO, what matters is private and secure conversations. Apple user to Apple user has it natively. Android user to Android user has it natively. Whatsapp to Whatsapp user has it natively. But Apple users to Android users don't. Why not? That's what interoperability efforts by the EU are meant to fix.
If successful, it will not make Apple users messages less secure. On the contrary, it will make them far MORE secure and private. But Apple was fighting to be the outlier, the one messaging service that could not truly be E2EE? Outside of monetary reasons that makes no sense to me.
Apple services less secure than Google's. Tech is flipped on its head. Time for Apple to right the ship.
Why are you assuming that Apple users can't use WhatsApp, Facebook Messsenger, Signal, Telegtam and a host of other cross platform messaging services that have E2EE, to message Android users (or even other Apple users)? Better let the rest of the World know because Apple users been privately and securely messaging with Android users for quite a long time now. They're just not using iMessage to do it.
The correct way to put it (without adding the Apple bias) is ..... iMessage users can not privately and securely message any Android messaging services. But when one put it that way, guess what? WhatsApp users can not privately and securely message Google Messages users. Signal users can not privately and securely message any Facebook Messenger users. Telegram users can not privately and securely message iMessage users (not Apple users.) In fact, none of the messaging services can privately and securely message any other messaging services. And if privacy and security are the most important to the messaging service users, then that's the way it should be. No matter how interoperability is implemented with the tech we have now, it will compromise the amount of privacy and security we have now.
And if the EU don't move the goal post and enforce their mandate that interoperability (between messaging services) can not come at the cost of less security and privacy, we can expect a long, long wait before there's true interoperability between messaging services. Not even the EU have mandated a time line on when this should happen. They just want it to happen without lessening any privacy and security we have now. Of course, interoperability can happen almost overnight, if all messaging services must adapt SMS (or RCS) and forgo E2EE. Every government would love to see that happen. In which case Apple is already there (or soon will be when they add RCS next year).
But what’s even more insane is that Google cares so little about communication security that it never bothered to implement E2EE in its own Android messaging system.
I'm not sure i understand you. Isn't Google Messages, the official Google Android messaging service and the default for Android and Samsung phones, E2EE?
I think the OP was referring to Google own messaging systems. For which Google had over a dozen of, over the years. RCS is a telecom messaging system and belongs to the GSMA trade group, whom Google is a member. RCS was suppose to replace SMS, but the telecom never got around to it, until Google got involve (a decade later). RCS predates the iPhone by a couple of years and iMessage by over 5 years. RCS is not a messaging system that is own by Google.
What Google did was to add some extensions to the telecom standard Universal RCS, in order to have E2EE with a proprietary version of RCS, (that requires the use of Google Messages as the client on Android mobile phones). Google implementing E2EE to the telecoms Universal RCS, with Google Messages, is not the same as the companies behind iMessage, WhatsApp, Signal, Telegram, Facebook Messenger and others. Companies that implemented E2EE, to their own messaging system.
If you do a bit of research, won't you find that most (Apple is an exception) messaging services are built on top of another standard? And for the encryption part, most of them rely on the open Signal protocol at their core.
Anyway, FWIW I don't believe Chasm meant Google didn't develop Messages (they did but...) and thus it doesn't count. He just didn't know any better.
Fun Fact: the content of Google Messages cannot be revealed to authorities even by court order. Even Google themselves cannot read them, E2EE from start all the way to Cloud storage. There are others who completely protect their users from law enforcement review too.
But there are three that may be accessed and the service will turn over limited contents from their users otherwise E2EE conversations: iMessage, Line and WhatsApp.
IMO, what matters is private and secure conversations. Apple user to Apple user has it natively. Android user to Android user has it natively. Whatsapp to Whatsapp user has it natively. But Apple users to Android users don't. Why not? That's what interoperability efforts by the EU are meant to fix.
If successful, it will not make Apple users messages less secure. On the contrary, it will make them far MORE secure and private. But Apple was fighting to be the outlier, the one messaging service that could not truly be E2EE? Outside of monetary reasons that makes no sense to me.
Apple services less secure than Google's. Tech is flipped on its head. Time for Apple to right the ship.
Why are you assuming that Apple users can't use WhatsApp, Facebook Messsenger, Signal, Telegtam and a host of other cross platform messaging services that have E2EE, to message Android users (or even other Apple users)? Better let the rest of the World know because Apple users been privately and securely messaging with Android users for quite a long time now. They're just not using iMessage to do it.
The correct way to put it (without adding the Apple bias) is ..... iMessage users can not privately and securely message any Android messaging services. But when one put it that way, guess what? WhatsApp users can not privately and securely message Google Messages users. Signal users can not privately and securely message any Facebook Messenger users. Telegram users can not privately and securely message iMessage users (not Apple users.) In fact, none of the messaging services can privately and securely message any other messaging services. And if privacy and security are the most important to the messaging service users, then that's the way it should be.
LOL!
Didn't I say the same thing?
Quote: IMO, what matters is private and secure conversations. Apple user to Apple user has it natively. Android user to Android user has it natively. Whatsapp to Whatsapp user has it natively. But Apple users to Android users don't (*have it natively). Why not? That's what interoperability efforts by the EU are meant to fix.
Interoperability does not mean sending every participant in a discussion to another app to accommodate them, and perhaps a different one tomorrow, or a third the next.... or just do without the privacy and security that interoperability can offer.
But what’s even more insane is that Google cares so little about communication security that it never bothered to implement E2EE in its own Android messaging system.
I'm not sure i understand you. Isn't Google Messages, the official Google Android messaging service and the default for Android and Samsung phones, E2EE?
I think the OP was referring to Google own messaging systems. For which Google had over a dozen of, over the years. RCS is a telecom messaging system and belongs to the GSMA trade group, whom Google is a member. RCS was suppose to replace SMS, but the telecom never got around to it, until Google got involve (a decade later). RCS predates the iPhone by a couple of years and iMessage by over 5 years. RCS is not a messaging system that is own by Google.
What Google did was to add some extensions to the telecom standard Universal RCS, in order to have E2EE with a proprietary version of RCS, (that requires the use of Google Messages as the client on Android mobile phones). Google implementing E2EE to the telecoms Universal RCS, with Google Messages, is not the same as the companies behind iMessage, WhatsApp, Signal, Telegram, Facebook Messenger and others. Companies that implemented E2EE, to their own messaging system.
If you do a bit of research, won't you find that most (Apple is an exception) messaging services are built on top of another standard? And for the encryption part, most of them rely on the open Signal protocol at their core.
Anyway, FWIW I don't believe Chasm meant Google didn't develop Messages (they did but...) and thus it doesn't count. He just didn't know any better.
Fun Fact: the content of Google Messages cannot be revealed to authorities even by court order. Even Google themselves cannot read them, E2EE from start all the way to Cloud storage. There are others who completely protect their users from law enforcement review too.
But there are three that may be accessed and the service will turn over limited contents from their users otherwise E2EE conversations: iMessage, Line and WhatsApp.
IMO, what matters is private and secure conversations. Apple user to Apple user has it natively. Android user to Android user has it natively. Whatsapp to Whatsapp user has it natively. But Apple users to Android users don't. Why not? That's what interoperability efforts by the EU are meant to fix.
If successful, it will not make Apple users messages less secure. On the contrary, it will make them far MORE secure and private. But Apple was fighting to be the outlier, the one messaging service that could not truly be E2EE? Outside of monetary reasons that makes no sense to me.
Apple services less secure than Google's. Tech is flipped on its head. Time for Apple to right the ship.
Why are you assuming that Apple users can't use WhatsApp, Facebook Messsenger, Signal, Telegtam and a host of other cross platform messaging services that have E2EE, to message Android users (or even other Apple users)? Better let the rest of the World know because Apple users been privately and securely messaging with Android users for quite a long time now. They're just not using iMessage to do it.
The correct way to put it (without adding the Apple bias) is ..... iMessage users can not privately and securely message any Android messaging services. But when one put it that way, guess what? WhatsApp users can not privately and securely message Google Messages users. Signal users can not privately and securely message any Facebook Messenger users. Telegram users can not privately and securely message iMessage users (not Apple users.) In fact, none of the messaging services can privately and securely message any other messaging services. And if privacy and security are the most important to the messaging service users, then that's the way it should be.
LOL!
Didn't I say the same thing?
Quote: IMO, what matters is private and secure conversations. Apple user to Apple user has it natively. Android user to Android user has it natively. Whatsapp to Whatsapp user has it natively. But Apple users to Android users don't (*have it natively). Why not? That's what interoperability efforts by the EU are meant to fix.
Interoperability does not mean sending every participant in a discussion to another app to accommodate them, and perhaps a different one tomorrow, or a third the next.... or just do without the privacy and security that interoperability can offer.
But Apple users and Android users can message each other natively. You even gave examples of how. So how can you say that Apple users and Android users can't message each other natively? The just need to be using the same native messaging app. It's iMessage that can not natively message Android. NOT Apple users. Apple users can use "native" apps like WhatsApp, Signal, Telegram, Facebook Messenger, etc., to natively message with Android users (that are using the same native messaging app).
But what’s even more insane is that Google cares so little about communication security that it never bothered to implement E2EE in its own Android messaging system.
I'm not sure i understand you. Isn't Google Messages, the official Google Android messaging service and the default for Android and Samsung phones, E2EE?
I think the OP was referring to Google own messaging systems. For which Google had over a dozen of, over the years. RCS is a telecom messaging system and belongs to the GSMA trade group, whom Google is a member. RCS was suppose to replace SMS, but the telecom never got around to it, until Google got involve (a decade later). RCS predates the iPhone by a couple of years and iMessage by over 5 years. RCS is not a messaging system that is own by Google.
What Google did was to add some extensions to the telecom standard Universal RCS, in order to have E2EE with a proprietary version of RCS, (that requires the use of Google Messages as the client on Android mobile phones). Google implementing E2EE to the telecoms Universal RCS, with Google Messages, is not the same as the companies behind iMessage, WhatsApp, Signal, Telegram, Facebook Messenger and others. Companies that implemented E2EE, to their own messaging system.
If you do a bit of research, won't you find that most (Apple is an exception) messaging services are built on top of another standard? And for the encryption part, most of them rely on the open Signal protocol at their core.
Anyway, FWIW I don't believe Chasm meant Google didn't develop Messages (they did but...) and thus it doesn't count. He just didn't know any better.
Fun Fact: the content of Google Messages cannot be revealed to authorities even by court order. Even Google themselves cannot read them, E2EE from start all the way to Cloud storage. There are others who completely protect their users from law enforcement review too.
But there are three that may be accessed and the service will turn over limited contents from their users otherwise E2EE conversations: iMessage, Line and WhatsApp.
IMO, what matters is private and secure conversations. Apple user to Apple user has it natively. Android user to Android user has it natively. Whatsapp to Whatsapp user has it natively. But Apple users to Android users don't. Why not? That's what interoperability efforts by the EU are meant to fix.
If successful, it will not make Apple users messages less secure. On the contrary, it will make them far MORE secure and private. But Apple was fighting to be the outlier, the one messaging service that could not truly be E2EE? Outside of monetary reasons that makes no sense to me.
Apple services less secure than Google's. Tech is flipped on its head. Time for Apple to right the ship.
Why are you assuming that Apple users can't use WhatsApp, Facebook Messsenger, Signal, Telegtam and a host of other cross platform messaging services that have E2EE, to message Android users (or even other Apple users)? Better let the rest of the World know because Apple users been privately and securely messaging with Android users for quite a long time now. They're just not using iMessage to do it.
The correct way to put it (without adding the Apple bias) is ..... iMessage users can not privately and securely message any Android messaging services. But when one put it that way, guess what? WhatsApp users can not privately and securely message Google Messages users. Signal users can not privately and securely message any Facebook Messenger users. Telegram users can not privately and securely message iMessage users (not Apple users.) In fact, none of the messaging services can privately and securely message any other messaging services. And if privacy and security are the most important to the messaging service users, then that's the way it should be.
LOL!
Didn't I say the same thing?
Quote: IMO, what matters is private and secure conversations. Apple user to Apple user has it natively. Android user to Android user has it natively. Whatsapp to Whatsapp user has it natively. But Apple users to Android users don't (*have it natively). Why not? That's what interoperability efforts by the EU are meant to fix.
Interoperability does not mean sending every participant in a discussion to another app to accommodate them, and perhaps a different one tomorrow, or a third the next.... or just do without the privacy and security that interoperability can offer.
But Apple users and Android users can message each other natively. You even gave examples of how. So how can you say that Apple users and Android users can't message each other natively? The just need to be using the same native messaging app. It's iMessage that can not natively message Android. NOT Apple users. Apple users can use "native" apps like WhatsApp, Signal, Telegram, Facebook Messenger, etc., to natively message with Android users (that are using the same native messaging app). You can make believe you don't understand what the difference is and what native means WRT our smarphones default messaging services, but you're not a dumb guy. That's meant as a compliment.
Comments
I think the DOJ should investigate in the matter.
Anyway, FWIW I don't believe Chasm meant Google didn't develop Messages (they did but...) and thus it doesn't count. He just didn't know any better.
Fun Fact: the content of Google Messages cannot be revealed to authorities even by court order. Even Google themselves cannot read them, E2EE from start all the way to Cloud storage. There are others who completely protect their users from law enforcement review too.
But there are three that may be accessed and the service will turn over limited contents from their users otherwise E2EE conversations: iMessage, Line and WhatsApp.
IMO, what matters is private and secure conversations. Apple user to Apple user has it natively. Android user to Android user has it natively. Whatsapp to Whatsapp user has it natively. But Apple users to Android users don't. Why not? That's what interoperability efforts by the EU are meant to fix.
If successful, it will not make Apple users messages less secure. On the contrary, it will make them far MORE secure and private. But Apple was fighting to be the outlier, the one messaging service that could not truly be E2EE? Outside of monetary reasons that makes no sense to me.
Apple services less secure than Google's. Tech is flipped on its head. Time for Apple to right the ship.
LOL! Didn't I say the same thing?
Quote: IMO, what matters is private and secure conversations. Apple user to Apple user has it natively. Android user to Android user has it natively. Whatsapp to Whatsapp user has it natively. But Apple users to Android users don't (*have it natively). Why not? That's what interoperability efforts by the EU are meant to fix.
Interoperability does not mean sending every participant in a discussion to another app to accommodate them, and perhaps a different one tomorrow, or a third the next....
or just do without the privacy and security that interoperability can offer.
But Apple users and Android users can message each other natively. You even gave examples of how. So how can you say that Apple users and Android users can't message each other natively? The just need to be using the same native messaging app. It's iMessage that can not natively message Android. NOT Apple users. Apple users can use "native" apps like WhatsApp, Signal, Telegram, Facebook Messenger, etc., to natively message with Android users (that are using the same native messaging app).